UKH

Help! – we're trying to buy our first car after 10+years of car-free life in London.

Having moved to Sheffield a few months ago, and recently grown to a family of four (6 year old and 7 month old) we're in need of a suitable car for short trips around town and weekend visits to the Peak District (and occasionally further afield).

We've both owned cars previously but it's a really long time ago, I think pre-2009 maybe!

Our budget is maybe up to £8000 but would be preferable to find something around £5-6K if possible. Big enough to get two small(ish) kids in the back. We've coped ok in hire-cars the size of an Astra or smaller, could probably manage most journeys in a Corsa (for example) but I am 6ft so would prefer not to be too bunched up! And of course we need room for a boulder pad...

Some questions:

1. Any specific used car recommendations? For the cost, fuel efficiency, reliability and preferably lower tax and insurance – we'll be trying to keep running costs low.

2. Does anyone recommend buying online? Or shoud we always go for a test drive and inspection?

3. Where do people search for used cars?

4. Car leasing - a worthwhile alternative to buying?

5. Any red flags/warning signs to look out for either in adverts or when inspecting a car?

Thanks UKC!

Andy

I'd definitely try an example of the car at least. You mention your height but the space inside, particularly headroom for taller people is barely related at all to the overall size of the car. Also try the little one's car-seat, see what access is like and what it does to the front seat position! I've owned big chunky ergonomic disasters and tiny little shopping carts with tons of comfy space inside and everything in between.

Can't help much with the other questions.

jk

Wait if possible - we are on the cusp of a Car price collapse. Do others agree on this ?

No, the car world has always been very good at maintaining strong prices. I can't remember a time when it was a buyer's market anyway. 

Also I think fossil fuelled car prices will hold up as fewer are being made and plenty of people remain unconvinced by electric cars or can't afford them.

My experience is limited. Current and last car being a Honda Jazz. Spacious for the range and considered very reliable and average iro repair costs.

Paid £6k Feb 2020 for a 2013 model. Can't remember the mileage but it was low.

Check the details of the Sheffield clean air zone which is coming up in 2023. You probably won't want a car which is caught by it.

Oh ignore me , they're not charging private vehicles for now. Unlike the Bristol one...

I had two Jazz's (an 07 second hand one then a leased 17 plate.) I do recommend highly if you only want / need something basic, reliable and versatile. As jkarren said is possible - this is very spacious car for the size. No idea of current market conditions re: prices or which model you would get for your price range, you can probably just look on a sliding scale of cost / mileage between £5k-£8k and get the one that offers the most bang for your buck.

Eh ? How did they maintain strong prices. Have you not seen the car prices recently ?

Initially it's only vans (without euro 6 engines) that will be affected by the charging zone, but who knows how long before that's extended to include older cars as well.

How likely is it that you will expand to a family of five? Friends had to upgrade their car as they were unable to fit three child seats across the back seat.

The answer is always:

Skoda Octavia

How about something like a Citroen Berlingo?  Might well tick most of your boxes (capacity, price, headroom).  I like the fact that you can turn them into a mini-camper without major effort.

We've had a second-hand Ford S-Max for over 10 years.  It's been ace, but may be a bit big for your needs - and unlikely to meet the budget.

One thing to note is if you're a cash buyer, car supermarkets will charge you more than if you take a loan to pay for it. (Apologies if you already knew that)

.... estate

Not sure, what do you know?

It's been supply shortage linked inflation, do you know supply has increased?

Actually I think the Skoda Fabisa estate would be something for the OP to try, good compromise of size, cost and practicality.

Honda Jazz does seem to come up in a lot of recommendations and lists online. Already seen one or two within our budget.

I didn't know this, so thank you!

I had a quick look for Octavias and they generally seem to be out of our budget, at least if you want one that hasn't done loads of miles. Fabia was recommended by a climber friend who's had two of them.

Also the tax and fuel economy generally seems less good for the Octavia. Maybe that's on paper, but different ot people's experience?

On a kind of related note, I don't think we'd be going for any diesel engines as we're not likely to be racking up loads of motorway miles (seems to be lots of diesel Octavias and Fabias)

Yeah I've been on a few climbing trips in friends Berlingos!

What's your thoughts on the age of model, how relevant is it? I can see a 2010 model that's in our budget. 12 years old seems like a lot to me (I may be showing my complete ignorance of cars here!)

No it's a smaller car it's going to be better, and the tax will be cheaper.

I've just had a look I see what you mean. Personally, I would't be put off a diesel as long as you get Euro 6 (2016 on mostly), sometimes advertised as ULEZ free on AT. There used to be this thing about big repair bills but I've had a few and never got stung by this.... I thin newer cars are more reliable, and petrols are more complex now anyhow.

Highly unlikely to have any more kids!! Two is definitely at the financial/sanity threshold in our case

And no worries about faster depreciation of diesel cars or future regulation changes? This is all speculation on my part...

Diesel car prices did depreciate some on the emissions thing, but you'll be benefiting more from that than you stand to lose on a 6-7k car.

I don't think there'll be more regulation. I don't think the message really got out there that it's older diesels that are very dirty..... then you had the cheating thing, but they've been done for that so can't see it happening again. Euro 6 is a decent standard and cars that cheated there way round it have been fixed now.

For that money I would avoid a diesel. They are false economy as their emission controls are so complicated they soon start failing. You'll be riddled with EGR, turbo and DPF problems unless you go for something almost brand new, or very old (i.e. not an £8k car).

I've got a Lexus RX400h which is basically a bigger version of a Toyota Prius and I've been so impressed with it's reliability. It's 17 years old now. I've owned it for nearly 6 years and almost nothing has broken on it in that time. So if you want to be more on the economical side, I wouldn't hesitate with a Prius or a Lexus CT200, both of which are easily available with your budget (Lexus CT200 looks nicer). The hybrid systems seem to be so reliable. Also, not alternators or starter motors which are usual failure points, and the batteries don't appear to fail in them either.

Can't beat seeing it in person. Might look great in the pics, but when you see it up close they can looks very rough. if buying from a garage how well it drives is less of an issue as you can insist on it being fixed, but if you buy private you need to test drive it unless you like taking gambles.

 eBay and Autotrader. I do my own work on cars so don't mind picking up junk cars on eBay and fixing them up. If not into that type of thing, I think AutoTrader is more reliable for honest sellers.

Not for me. Expensive and you have nothing to show for it at the end. You're also liable for any damage etc so insurance could get pretty pricey for trolley dents etc.

If buying private any lights on the dash are a mjor concern, They will say something like "it just needs a fuse or some other easy fix" to which you should say "so why haven't you fixed it".

Get the reg plate and check it's MOT history. https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history

You can tell from advisories and fails how well the car has been looked after. If the same problems appear again and again then it's not been looked after very well. If it always has problems at every MOT, it's probably not being serviced. Check the latest advisories have been fixed, or factor them into the cost.

Tyres are expensive.

Full service history for the money you are paying would be needed. Any major gaps are a concern.

Always get two keys. If you have one key and it dies, it can cost thousands to sort.

Walk away from any rust. It just gets worse and it's a losing battle.

Look for poorly fitting panels and different shades of paint. Sign of accident.

I like to see a nice dry engine pay. Any dampness is a sign of aging gadgets and perhaps a lack of care from the previous owner.

People get all hung up by mileage and number of previous owner etc. It's all part of the puzzle, but buy based on condition rather than the clues.

Edit: Further thoughts.

Avoid Semi automatics. It will break. Go proper automatic or manual

I avoid French cars (may be an outdated view now). But if not, Electric fail, body control modules being a pain. You often have to remove the front bumper to change a light bulb (this is true for the Renault modus for example, bigger cars may be better), interior rattles to pieces, not known for build quality. I'd go with Japanese or maybe Korean.

I've bought two fairly recently from the AvailableCar car supermarket.  Offers most of what the online sales people do but you can go and inspect and test-drive far more easily.  In so much as car sales go I found them perfectly satisfactory.  I think I would consider e.g. Cazoo though.

I prefer to buy using a personal loan than a PCP as I own the car at the end, I usually do a 3 year loan but keep up to 5-6 years so I have a period with no payments.  I usually get lower rates than PCPs too, though at the moment it's anybody's guess!

Have a look at the Yeti - versatile, surprisingly spacious and ultra reliable. We’ve had 2 & been well satisfied.

Re. Leasing: got a great deal direct with Skoda 2 years ago for a Kamiq (£165 per month) & 10k miles per year x2 years. Might be a good short term option?

Dunno. They just always seem to have done this. 

Have you not seen the car prices recently ?

Yes. They are sky high. 

I'm not really sure what your point is. Mine was I've never bought a car at what I would consider a bargain price - I don't see that changing anytime soon. 

I'd avoid a diesel generally at the moment.  Diesel is quite a bit pricier than petrol which loses you some of the gain of the higher MPG, and LEZs and ULEZs are increasingly banning all but the newest due to NOx and particulate pollution.  Plus some modern small diesels are utterly gutless and suffer from terrible turbo lag with almost no torque until it spins up.

Re the Berlingo I think the Ford Tourneo Connect is a better car of that type but might cost more.  Though I had a 2005 Berlingo years ago and it was great.  Probably the best car I've had - very practical and surprisingly nice to drive, and unbelievably spacious.

"...and LEZs and ULEZs are increasingly banning all..." - Thought they were charging extra - not banning. I'm not aware of any zones banning use of a particular vehicle. Would be interested to know if otherwise.

In any case, it's a good factor to through into the mix when making purchasing decision.

Bristol nearly had an outright diesel ban though I believe it rowed back from it.  But yes you're mostly right for now, it is a charge, but one you'd need to factor in if you often drive into anything bigger than a small town, as they will spread over the coming years, though I suspect you'll only get ZEZs (zero emission) in very anti-car towns like Oxford, Cambridge and Durham plus the very big cities you'd be mad to drive into regularly anyway.

If I was buying now I'd go petrol, without a doubt, and I like the experience of driving a (torquey*) diesel.

Another issue with diesels - don't buy anything with a pre-about-2015-ish PSA (Peugeot/Citroen) 1.4 turbodiesel.  The things eat turbos unless serviced very carefully to the spec, hoovering the oil out like Kwik Fit etc do won't work.  Later ones are better, but for anything with this engine of any vintage do not buy unless it has a full, totally on-time by both time and mileage main dealer service record.  There are a lot of these about, don't get bitten.  If there is any record on one of these of a turbo replacement run away, it WILL need another one, once the cack from incorrect servicing gets into the oil lines there's no recovering the situation.

* The Ford 1.5Tdci is NOT a torquey diesel, it couldn't pull the skin off a rice pudding until the turbo has spun up.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply. Lots to think about! I'll try and take as much as possible on board. I imagine some of this seems obvious to experienced car owners but it's all new to me.

Question to anyone: So with the service history and MOT - this is something I should be able to see easily when buying? Or do I need to research myself, eg look online?

Generally you'd need to ask the dealer to show you the service history, though I think some manufacturers keep online records of main dealer services on very recent cars.

You can check online if a car has an MoT and what was recorded e.g. advisories you may be concerned about (https://www.gov.uk/check-mot-history).

May also be worth doing an HPI check to check it's not been written off etc.

Thanks, hadn't heard of AvailableCar. Looks like nearest to us is Leeds, so potentially worth a look.

There's a few car supermarkets out there.  They keep things simple (e.g. not much scope for haggling, which I always find a bit of a faff), have large mostly ex-fleet stocks etc.  "Your mileage may vary" but they've done the job for me twice.  Not had to go back with a fault, though, so I can't say how that experience would be, but probably no worse than the terrible experience I had with a Vauxhall main dealer years ago.

I find them a bit more keenly priced than Cazoo and the likes, and nowhere near as Rodney Trotter/Swiss Tony as small garages.

I was interested to see a 'triple seats on a beam' affair for sale on our local FB marketplace recently. It wasn't cheap (£1k iirc), but it was cheaper than changing the vendor's car!

I've found advice from:  youtube.com/watch?v=rXI8Ay1GxgQ& - to be helpful.

Search on Autotrader

HTH

A useful feature of Autotrader is that it gives you a rough idea of how good the price for a particular car is.  A bit like Zoopla does for houses.  It's crude but a useful tool.

Nice, some different suggestion to usual top tens, and cheaper too. Great video! The stuff you can find on YouTube...

+1 for a Yeti but next time I'd go for a bigger engine than the 1200 which is not that economical. Really nice car to travel in but not much of a boot so use a roofbox for bigger trips. Traction not brilliant at times. 

Citroen Berlingo owner here. Well the wife is but I drive it if we go out together.

She is 6 foot with a short body and long legs, I'm 6 foot with a long body and short legs. Fits us both perfectly.

Loads of luggage space.

The side doors are a game changer, our dogs live on the rear seats in harnesses, it's far easier to get them in and out and harnessed up with sliding doors than traditional opening doors. It will be the same with kids.

With her driving it gets 44mpg but that is 100% short journey urban driving. If I drive we are normally going somewhere and last week I was getting 52mpg on a week long trip to Northumberland, 60 mph on the A1 and 50 mph on the country roads. 

Audi do this and it is SUPER annoying.

It's to try to coerce you into main dealer servicing which is usually* a waste of money.  Anyone with any sense would happily accept a spreadsheet and a pile of receipts if the vendor no longer provides a service book.

* See note above about the PSA 1.4 turbodiesel and why you *do* want full main dealer service history if you buy one of those.

1. I’ve a second hand 2013 Volvo V40 1.6D. Cost £8k but it was very low mileage (37k), and has quite literally every toy that could come with it apart from the sunroof which is fine because they always leak in Volvos. Averages 60mpg over the last 17,000 miles, £0 VED/road tax and insurance is seemingly cheap too. My last Volvo ran to 210,000 with nothing more than the scheduled maintenance so have high hopes for this one too! 
2. Look online but always go and see and drive it.

3. Auto trader.

4. It’s car by subscription and has it’s benefits but also it’s drawbacks - trouble free motoring but you’ll never own a car and will always be paying for it. 
5. Im not too sure on this one, but a good tip is to find the brands various internet forums dedicated to maintaining and fixing them. You’ll quickly see any potential issues with particular models!

Check who actually produces the engine. Misubishi ASX diesels have PSA (French) engines. Mrs Ridge had one and it was a pile of shite, multiple injection system failures.

I ran my first Kia Ceed (18 months old when I got it) for 10 years with no major problems and part exed with 150k miles on the clock for a second hand Ceed estate, which has so far done 60k, again with no issues. The warranties are good (my first failed an MOT at just under 7 years old (95k on the clock) due to worn CV boot and roll bar bushes. I was staggered when it was fixed under warranty.

Edit: VW massively overrated IMHO, living on past reputation. The SEAT and Skoda equivalents are pretty much the same bits in a much better value package.

A Skoda Roomster might be another option. Cheaper than a Fabia estate and even roomier. The 3 rear seats fold and tip but can also be taken out individually to give a big flat load space when required. Not as convenient as the magic seats in the Honda Jazz I had previously but quite a bit more spacious. Two pads easily fit in the boot with the seats up. The 1.2 TSi petrol has plenty of power and will easily do 50mpg on a long run. The panoramic roof on some versions is a nice touch, and makes it very airy, but avoid it if you ever want to use a roof rack for carrying bikes.

The Fabia estate is quite small - particularly the latest ones.  A bit smaller than a Focus hatch and not really a true estate at all, unless you consider that rear quarterlights make a car an estate, which I don't as many hatches have or had them, though they seem to be falling out of favour at the moment (e.g. the new e-Niro has removed them, the old one had them).

The Roomster is in the Berlingo "van with windows" stable - if the OP is after something like that it's as good a choice as any.

While both are (sort-of in the Roomster's case) based on small cars (similarly the earlier* Vauxhall Combo is Corsa-based) they are chalk and cheese.

* The current one is a badged Berlingo/Rifter since Vauxhall/Opel entered the PSA stable, or whatever it's called now.  Interestingly the new Ford Tourneo Connect is actually a badged VW!

Actually, I’ve recently been looking for a Berlingo to replace the Roomster I’ve got as at times I find it too small. The Roomster feels more like a car rather than a van like the Berlingo, but the latest versions of the latter don’t have a totally flat floor with the seats down though while the rear lip on the former is a bit annoying at times. If I had two kids, rather than one, I think a Berlingo would be the best option.

Yeah, I think the Roomster is a car derived van/MPV, as the old Vauxhall Combo was, whereas the Berlingo is a van derived car.

The Berlingos are pretty big, but if you want *really* big in that market then the Ford Tourneo Connect LWB is what to go for, they are absolutely huge despite being in that market rather than the full-size Transit one.  They're not as common and cost more than Berlingos, though.  There's also a LWB Berlingo (not quite as big but still big), but it's sow-ugly and really obvious it's stretched, whereas the Tourneo was designed in that length to start with so doesn't look out of place (e.g. the LWB has a wider sliding door).

But then I suppose if you care if your car is sow-ugly then a Berlingo isn't your thing anyway!

Still think the 2005 Berlingo I had was the best car I've ever had - and it cost me well under ten grand brand new, too - they have priced them up a bit since!  A bit underpowered with the base 1.4 8 valve petrol but reliable* and very, very practical.  I'm half tempted by the e-Berlingo but I'm not buying an EV with only a 150ish mile stated range, they're going to have to do way better than that, which probably means a new platform with the batteries in the floorpan rather than bodging the current platform into an EV.

* Except being delivered with a faulty ECU, but it was swapped quickly and without argument and never caused me any trouble at all after that.

Skoda Roomster also in the sow-ugly class IMO, but then there are many cars of all types that look like they've been designed by a team who weren't talking to eachother 😁

You need one that you can put a rear facing seat and a forward facing car seat in the rear and not have one of them sit across the seat belt clip so you can't plug in one of the seat belts. In my experience most but not every car that'll work but keep eyes open in case it doesn't (before you buy), also in my experience I never found a car that accepted 3 kids car seats in the back and still allowed the seat belts to plug in unless it was a 7 seater (in which case you wouldn't need 3 in the middle row). Stick with 2 kids or your car issues will increase exponentially

Edit: I very nearly bought a Skoda Roomster a few years ago, but glad I didn't

Absolutely loved my Focus estate and would be brilliant for your needs and definitely take a boulder pad, but a hatchback would probably be fine most of the time.

Big question for you is how big is the pushchair for the 7mo - will it fill the boot of anything like a Jazz/Astra/smaller/A3, etc.

Other serious question is will the car sets fit with the headrests in the back - ours don't work well with the headrests in my parent's C-Max and we've just rejected a new Volvo partly based on that, too.

Don't lease - it's a money pit and not sure you can at your budget anyway, as it's mainly on new cars.

Sooner or later ULEZ zones will be updated to be electric only (and maybe the latest petrol/diesel cars before long as an interim period).

I suspect once Euro 7 has been around for 5 years or so they'll add euro 6 diesel cars to the banned list and maybe euro 5 petrols.

They may say they won't but minds change quickly.

This is what Sadiq Khan said in 2019 about the ULEZ.

https://www.change.org/p/sadiq-khan-stop-mayor-khan-s-ulez-zone-extension-t...

"This petition incorrectly states that the Mayor will extend the ULEZ to outer London, up to the M25. This is not the case."

"There are no plans to expand the zone beyond this area [north and south circular road] to outer London. "

Then 2 years later we have the proposed expansion to include all of greater London:

https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emission-zone/proposed-ulez-expa...

We've had to hire cars many, many times over the years. Smallest has been something like the Corsa or maybe even a Fiesta, Astra is probably on the bigger side! Somehow we've always managed to fit everything in and that has often included camping gear. Although this was when we only had one child and filled the back seats a bit more - things will be more challenging now!

Yeah checking for the car seat space in the back is high on the list of priorities.

This is definitely the overriding message I'm getting. I looked at a couple of options and there was nothing that seemed like good value IMO

 ZEZ rather than ULEZ is certainly the end game as it were, but it'll be a while other than in the centre of presently very anti car places.

A big thanks to everyone for all the helpful replies so far! Much appreciated

My hope is that the transition to electric will be fast enough that it doesn't need regulating and the few that choose/need? to continue using ICE aren't worth the expense of regulating. We shall see.

We will reach the point fairly soon where there are very few non ULEZ petrols on the road at all and so that becomes pointless.  I reckon the transition to only classics not being electric, the point that renders the schemes not of benefit (though congestion charging may stay) will take about 20 years.

Well that's 2025 so 5 years on from that is 2030.

https://www.transportenvironment.org/challenges/air-quality/the-euro-7/

Given the crunch in supply of new vehicles, and the subsequent inflation in car prices, I can't see it. See delay/cancellation of Greater Manchester scheme.

The priority will be to get pre Euro 6 diesels of the road,,,, but even that couldn't be implemented in the current economic climate.

We bought a car online earlier this year without seeing it in person, although the dealer sent us a video tour before we bought. The dealer gave us a week or 150 miles (I think) to test drive it and return if we wanted. It did have some problems so we ended up returning it which was all very painless and smoothly dealt with. The only faff was having to wait a couple days for the money to be back in our account before we could buy another instead. It was all quite good really and I liked being able to use it for a few days to really test it. We wouldn’t have spotted some of the issues if we’d just had a 30 minute test drive with the dealer giving us a running sales pitch.

There's a roof box in my future, as the ordered car is going to be smaller than our current one - possibly the same for you, too.

The issue we've had is fixed/non-removable headrests pushing the top of the back of the seat forwards, so they are very upright - the Volvo meant they were leaning forwards - with a big gap between the back of the seat and the car seat.

I'd definitely recommend checking out the High Peak Autos Youtube channel for reviews of all sort of cars.

https://www.youtube.com/c/HighPeakAutos/videos

The presenter has a used car business and gives very good, honest, warts-and-all reviews of lots of everyday cars most 'normal' folk tend to buy.

For a preponderance of short trips I’d suggest avoiding diesels, for some of the maintenance questions already mentioned - egg’s, dpfs etc don’t get to work at their best unless you’re doing regular long runs.

Honda Jazz is a good cheap bet which can take huge mileages - and often haven’t been worked that hard by first owners. Just look for a well stamped book. Mrs Colin had two in succession, faultless apart from an under-warranty steering rack change on the second one.

Guessing the Civic will be more of the same but with more space.