UKH

"The vast majority, 89%, claim they would be happy for their child to marry someone from another ethnic group, and 70% strongly agree.  This is an improvement from January 2009, when 75% said they would be happy overall, and 41% strongly."

From a recent IPSOS Mori poll: https://www.ipsos.com/ipsos-mori/en-uk/attitudes-race-and-inequality-great-...

I live in Scotland and up here we're still an overwhelmingly white society so we just go in for religious bigotry instead. My work is in a multinational and in my office we have I think about 11 nationalities and we deal with people from all over the world, race is never even noticed. As a result I think I live in a racist free bubble but on occasions wonder if the rest of Britain is as free from racial prejudice as Edinburgh.

Certainly the above survey was a pleasant surprise, especially the significant improvements in attitudes over the last decade. 

My view is that we're not perfect but better than a lot, if nor most, countries and that we have work to do but on the whole Britain isn't a bad place for a foreigner to live.

Am I wrong?

In reply to Removed User:

We're certainly a country where the vast majority of people take pride in not thinking of themselves as racist. So in a survey where the question might as well be asking "are you racist?", it's not very surprising that most people answered "no". In fact, 11% of people still answering "yes" is rather alarming and another 19% only "agreed" rather than "strongly agreed" to not being racist.

In reply to Removed User:

I think we're 4/10 racist. 

Does that help?

This is like trying to quantify how kind we are. Or how cool we are (obviously, I'm a statistical outlier because I'm so cool). I don't think racism is a thing you can measure in this manner.

In reply to Luke90:

When trying to ascertain how comparatively racist a country may be, the best people to ask aren't necessarily people that have lived here and nowhere else their entire lives. A more informed response could be found amongst refugees who've had at least a couple of years settled in the UK. There's a fair few Syrians and Afghans round here, in my experience they report finding far greater support and acceptance here than any of the other countries they've travelled through.

In reply to Luke90:

Yes but the survey digs a little deeper than that doesn't it. Asking if you'd mind if your child married someone of a different colour is a bit more pointed.

In reply to Stichtplate:

Yes, that would have been my suspicion.

I also go down to London occasionally and have done since the seventies. These days I get a good vibe about the place. Once upon a time I could feel the racial tension but now I get the impression that London is quite at ease with itself.

In reply to Removed User:

A few months ago I was having dinner with friends, all from London (I live here but I’m from Yorkshire). I was the only white person. 
 

The conversation took a very sober turn when they all started talking about how much worse racism felt in recent years, and how they felt the country was going backwards. Sure, it’s not the 70s, but I’m not sure complacency is deserved. 

In reply to Removed User:

It's a bit more specific than just "are you racist?" but it's hard to think of a more textbook example of racism than having concerns about your offspring's fiancé based on the colour of their skin.

In reply to Removed User:

My understanding from reading people's accounts on Facebook, is that it's less overt racism. However, it's things like black men being more likely to be stopped and searched (which will be humiliating if you are close to home and people see you), it's that black people tend to come from more deprived backgrounds as a result of the racism of previous generations. Our society doesn't make it easy these days to climb out of poverty. I read an account from an Oboist with a professional orchestra who has on numerous occasions had to prove she was part of the orchestra and not catering or cleaning staff. 

I don't get the impression that it is often blatant (although undoubtedly there will be times as there are horrible people everywhere), but it is more underlying assumptions and hurdles. 

This is just from social media posts which I have read though, I am blond and freckly with green eyes, so absolutely no experience of it!!

In reply to girlymonkey:

https://m.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10163815598815375

In reply to Removed User:

Did you happen to see "Sitting in Limbo" on the telly last week?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p08g29ff

It's a very matter of fact dramatisation of what happened to someone who isn't even a foreigner, a man who grew up here, worked, paid taxes, had children and built his life here over 50 years.  Theresa May was the home secretary responsible for that, but when the review reluctantly commissioned by Sajid Javid as home secretary concluded that the policy was racist to the bone it was Amber Rudd who resigned over it.

Of the 1275 people who have applied for compensation, only 60 have received anything.  Anthony Bryan, the subject of that film, received compensation for the false imprisonment of his two stays in detention centres facing imminent deportation.  Nothing for losing his job, losing his home or having three years of his life turned into an absolute nightmare.

So while we certainly could do worse, let's not pat ourselves on the back too much.  Of more interest (and concern) than where we are, I would suggest, is in which direction we are moving.  Not the right way, I fear, which has a horrible irony to it under our second successive BAME home secretary.

In reply to Removed User:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CBDQYGpg7nE/?fbclid=IwAR17YYg0hvNvSacUDpeC3tjE5...

In reply to Removed User:

Plenty of racism in the UK, but never seemed quite as widespread,  institutionally ingrained or as plain butt-ugly as what I regularly witness here in the US.
If you ever want to get a glimpse of the sort of mindset that allowed ordinary german citizens to merrily herd jewish children into gas chambers, look no further.

In reply to Removed User:

Your title is about racism but in your conclusion you are talking about foreigners living here. That's not a great start. Surely you see the difference between racism aimed at people's ethnicity and xenophobia aimed people's nationality? Most victims of racism in the UK aren't foreigners, they are British people. Your post makes it sound like you think people who are not white are foreigners - perhaps that's not what you meant but it sort of is what you said. That in itself is racist, because it's excluding people (saying they are 'other' - in this case not British) because of their ethnicity. Again, if that's not what you meant, then fine - but just imagine someone black or Asian reading that who have spent their whole life being told in various ways they are not from here, even though this is where they were born and they have never lived anywhere else.

My partner and kids are foreigners but have experienced no racism, but they are white, so why would they?

In reply to Stichtplate:

Why wouldn't you just ask some British people who aren't white? Don't you think a Black or Asian Brit might have a much more nuanced and deeper understanding of how and where they confront racism than a recently arrived refugee?

In reply to Removed User:

I've just had a week long argument with a number of people from my home town, they were outraged when I suggested their posts seemed a bit racist, and yet they're full of anti-BLM posts from far right groups, only two steps away from the original poster.

Someone, who thinks BLM are all Antifa, which when I asked about being anti- fascist and Churchill (him being a hero of this bloke) and the six year war we had against fascism, seemed to think there was different types of fascism, and the Nazi type was bad, because if was about world domination and killing Jews.

They we're mainly tired of BLM and outraged that they had fights with the coppers, meanwhile Saturdays tussles with the "Statue Protectors" was all the coppers fault because they were winding them up!

I know there are people like this around, but just about everyone was of the same opinion, scary stuff, at least in my opinion.

Prepared to believe anything that fits their narrative, Police horse shot with a flare during BLM (it didn't happen), White bloke stabbed in the neck by a BLM supporter (it didn't happen), bottles and other stuff chucked and police horses by the white protectors (this was made up).

Equivalence drawn between black criminals and the police, as in "well what about these two black blokes that killed this woman?", with a total lack of understanding that cops are supposed to save people and killers are killers.

This, unfortunately, was just one or two people but quite a number, with very few dissenters (me and someone else). Some were obviously beyond hope, one bloke a Trump supporter, Illuminati, Covid was released on purpose by George Soros, but other were "normal" people.

I don't know how we get around this ingrained racism.

In reply to TobyA:

Because I'm not denying racism exists. Because the header of the OP reads 'How racist is Britain?'. Because to fully answer that would require the ability to make a comparison. Because the best people to answer that question might be people with recent experience of other countries. Because the best people to answer that question might be those that arrive devoid of family, friends, social networks, cash or possessions who are totally reliant on the society they find themselves landed in.

If I was going to ask people "how crap is living in Preston?", I'd be a bit daft to rely on the judgement of those that'd never lived anywhere else.

Edit: reading back, I said as much in my original post. Odd that you felt the need to ask a question I'd already gone over.

In reply to Stichtplate:

Why? Why would anyone who has been here for a bit, be that an asylum seeker, refugee, foreign student or a tourist - have more experience of British racism than a British BAME person who has lived here all their life?

If you want to know "is Britain more or less racist than France?" then, sure, you need to ask a Black person or someone with north African heritage who has lived in both countries. But how can some one who has not been through the school system, or hasn't applied for jobs, or who doesn't speak the language without an accent, or who doesn't have relatives or friends of the majority ethnicity, or a myriad of other experiences of British life really understand what racism is in Britain?

edit to your edit: the experiences of refugees will be quite different from the 14% (so 10 million-ish?) British people of BAME backgrounds. I know refugees see plenty of racism too, but it's different and they are much smaller in number.

In reply to TobyA:

I didn't say they'd have more experience of British racism. I said that to answer the question "how racist is Britain?" they'd need comparative experience to provide context.

I can only provide anecdotal evidence of people I've met. People who've arrived with nothing and no one and had to rely solely on our society for support. People in such a situation are very well placed to decide if our country is hostile or welcoming. You're obviously unhappy with this response but what else can I say? you're demanding a burden of proof that is impossible to meet.

In reply to TobyA:

My partner and kids are foreigners but have experienced no racism, but they are white, so why would they?

please don’t think that white people who are foreign and living in England can’t experience racism. I am aware of plenty of racism from BAME people towards white people who have moved here.

In reply to Removed User:

My own experience is that we almost eliminated racism based on skin colour in the UK, not entirely of course, but almost.

However the focus of racist discourse in the UK has mostly shifted from skin colour to culture,  ethnicity and origin. Basically any group that has been ‘socially’ constructed as having a different ‘origin’, whether cultural, historical, or geographical.

This new form of racism has the capacity to link discourses of patriotism, nationalism, xenophobia, Englishness, Britishness into a complex situation which gives “race” its contemporary meaning. This form of racism was central to winning the brexit vote, but clearly was there before.

I would argue that having a foreign accent and a foreign name, or a foreign citizenship is far more likely to attract prejudice and state harassment than having a black skin these days.

Of course there is a big overlap between the two, so BAME are disproportionately impacted, but the source of it isnt really skin colour itself.

For exemple, the treatment of Windrush really had to do with the perception that these people were foreign and therefore had very little to no rights and could be abused, detained, persecuted in what seems an almost separate system that operates outside the law. (A situation which continues to these days has nothing has been fixed btw)

In reply to Removed User:

I was also a wee bit confused at you adding in foreign to a racist conversation as they are completely seperate discussions. 

I have known a fair few racists but an awful lot more xenophobes up here in Scotland and it ties in very nicely to your other comment about religious bigotry up here as every single racist and xenophobe, and I mean every single one without exception was of an Orange order  Rangers supporting disposition.Whereas Celtic/Catholic are very welcoming and anti-racist and pro-immigrant. 

My man, who is from German stock looks like a stereotypical big German Aryan nazi but is in fact a USSR loving socialist gets plenty of disgusting xenophobic treatment in Scotland on a daily basis. In fact he worked for one place where not one single other Scots worker would even say hello back in the morning because he is foreign, I told him to leave as that place was toxic for your health so he did. Xenophobia is everywhere up here as I pointed out but only amongst Rangers /Orange people. I must add I was raised in a household that was Orange/Rangers/military to a degree so I know these types well and they are extremely bigoted and extremely backward. 

In reply to Pefa:

<Shakes head>

In reply to Removed User:

I hear more and more comments recently along the lines of if you do nothing about racism then you must be a racist. Which means most of us are.

At the moment the focus appears to be on BLAM folk.  

What about the racism faced by tribal minorities the world over?   How many of us take any action over  the far worse racism faced by them?  https://survivalinternational.org.  

Tribal minorities suffer far more  than our ethnic minorities and it is often government led.  So maybe we are more racist than we think.

In reply to Pefa:

That is not my experience being a Scottish born but now very English catholic.

However, on race, I come from a mixed race family although I usually pass as entirely white*. I have lots of cousins and extended family of both colours and every shade in between. Some of my family, both black and white, dress in american fashions and drive cars they can barely afford, maxing out credit cards to fund a flashy instagram lifestyle. They invariably have negative interactions with the police, the council and their neighbours but then they also think it is hilarious to go out of their way to be confrontational in order to get another clip for youtube. I have a couple of other cousins who are both black but they dress conventionally, if a little like Clarkson, and get on with living a quiet life. On the whole their experiences with authority are positive, apart from the council who don't like anyone. I don't think Britain is any worse or better than anywhere else when it comes to racism or xenophobia but the heart of British society is conformism. If you stick out too far you have to be ridiculed, if you stick out too far and are aggressive about the fact you have to be slapped down. Same goes for Islamophobia and homophobia, you can pretty much do what you want as long as you don't do it in the street and frighten the horses. We get told to celebrate difference all the time but when it comes down to it we don't really like it. The famous "people like us" of parochial village use will extend to colour and creed but rarely to culture.

*I didn't go to South Africa to work in the 80s because SA immigration wanted to call me "coloured" despite being blue-eyed and needing factor 50 to go out inthe English summer.

In reply to Removed User:

 Not as racist as other countries.  You only have to visit the Southern States of the USA to figures that out. 

In reply to neilh:

"other countries" or some other countries?

As for southern USA. Thats a bit like your doctor announcing they have a better track record than Shipman. Hopefully true but not really much to boast about.

In reply to Removed User:

According to the Implicit Bias Test that was posted previously I have a strong preference for light skinned people, in other words I am unconsciously racist. I think this is probably true, though I would like to believe that my actions are not racist.

I work in Engineering which is extremely gender imbalanced; I have proposed changes to hiring processes, even argued with bosses, to try to improve the companies I have worked at. The industry also has race and class imbalances, and yet I have not felt that this is a fight I ought to take on. Is that racist? Probably in some small way.

Given the racial makeup of the UK it is hardly a surprise that many of us interact primarily with other white people, and this inevitably shapes our unconscious attitudes. This is not something to blame people for, but we should recognise it in ourselves and our peers and ideally take steps to counteract its effects.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit/uk/

In reply to Ridge:

Come on, what? You will get the odd Celtic person who is racist or xenophobic obviously but I have never known one in my 54 years in Scotland and every single racist and xenophobe that I have known have been staunch loyalists, its a part of their mindset and you all can give 1000 dislikes but it doesn't change the truth. 

In reply to Removed User:

you live in Scotland, ask Nicol Sturgeon.,

In reply to Removed User:

Sorry to throw a spanner into the stream of self-congratulation in this thread but we live on the edge of Blackburn, which has been called the most racially divided town in Britain. The working-class whites who inhabit the town we find ignorant, whining, miserable and entitled. The (mostly Pakistani) Asian population are of course mostly decent, hard-working and law-abiding but their image is spoiled by a minority, mostly young men, who ignore the normal social rules and the law. Decent Pakistanis are desperate to get away from "those riff-raff" as one Pakistani woman said to me. At the moment we are selling our house and prospective buyers have all been Pakistani families trying to get out of the town into a decent area. We have some unpleasant white people living in our street so I fear the racial divide won't be healed when they begin to see folk from other cultures ariving in their area.

In reply to tlouth7:

Racism and discrimination in hardwired into our brains. It is part of evolution where protecting the “us” and attacking the “them” is a Survival strategy. We need to work hard to overcome this bias through education and culture. Unfortunately the brexiteers Retriggered this instinct with their xenophobic campaigning and legitimised it in some people. 

In reply to Stichtplate:

But the question was is Britain racist? Which is quite a different thing to whether it's hostile or welcoming to refugees, asylum seekers and the like, at least to the millions of British people who are BAME.

Out of interest, have people you've spoken to thought the UK is hostile or welcoming and do you know if they were refugees or asylum seekers? I can well imagine that will make a massive difference to a person's experience.

In reply to TobyA:

I think the question "how racist is Britain" is fabulously vague and hence really a Rorshach test. I mean, is it even a comparison? One could look at racism on a number of fronts: income and wealth, health, educational achievement, minority representation in various parts of our national life. "How racist is Britain?" could be answered by talking about the number of non-white people in the Cabinet, or in prison cells, and of course at the moment neither give a full answer.

But our Rorshach test seems to reveal a need to see racism in terms of a comparison, but a comparison to what exactly? To a previous time period? If so, which time period? To another country? If so, which country, and how are you going to measure that difference? Or even a comparison to a Britain without racism, an imaginary ideal that one might want to work towards?

I suspect the need to see the question in terms of a comparison - and not the later, ideal comparison - is because yes, Britain does kind of okay and better than it did, but it's a long way from ideal, so focussing on the former makes us feel better about ourselves and absolves us of too much soul-searching. It is depressing but not surprising that this question can - if framed in just the right way, like squinting to see the Indian's Face in Cloggy's silhouette - be answered by completely ignoring the actual lived experience of minority Britons.

In reply to Pefa:

The truth is that sectarianism is a shameful stain on Scottish culture and is prevalent and active enough to relegate racism to the lower leagues of hatred and bitterness.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

Imagine the uproar if you had switched ethnicity/colour!  

In reply to Removed User:

Having known for years that there is still underlying deep rooted racisim in our society, I generally believed that most people in Britain whilst perhaps oblivious to the problems, were generally not Racist. However since the George Floyd killing, my local facebook groups, some (now ex)friends, have made obviously racist statements, supported or shared extreme right wing bile etc.

To me looking at how society has changed in the last 10 years, it's bloody obvious that the country as a whole is horrifically racist, and willing to tolerate racist characters in the mainstream, and there are dark forces pushing us deeper and further from where we should be.

In reply to TobyA:

I asked two questions really.

Is Britain racist?

Is Britain more or less racist than other countries?

Stichtplate answered the second question. You may or may not agree with him.

Aren't all refugees asylum seekers?

I accept that not all asylum seekers are refugees.

Isn't the resentment is asylum seekers based on the perception that they are people trying to get something for nothing? The colour of their skin being secondary?

In reply to TobyA:

His idea seems to be deciding whether Britain is welcoming or not by selecting the infinitesimal fraction of people coming from the most awful places on earth that we accepted into the country as refugees and ask them their opinion.

Needless to say, there is a massive survival bias in that sample.

On the contrary, we should ask a broad representative sample. There will be different answers depending on different groups and generations.

For example, children of migrants, who were born and raised here, have higher expectations and so are more sensitive to inequalities or unequal treatment they encounter. By contrast, people who migrated here may compare their experience to life in their country of origin and feel that they have benefited from moving even if they still face some disadvantages.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51170406

You get different answers depending on origins too, survey data shows that EU migrants in the UK are more likely to feel that they faced discrimination (14%) than EU migrants in other EU-14 countries (9%). By contrast, the perception of discrimination among non-EU migrants is slightly lower in the UK than in the rest of the EU.

In reply to mondite:

And in the northern states of the USA - it is less so.

Alright then, been to Japan or Russia?

Clearly there is abhornet racism in the UK.As somebody who employed 1 of the very people who were black in the town where my business is located , I have witnessed it rampant in small town Britain.The reaction at the time was unreal. So I am not sure attitudes have really changed awey from the big city's.

But in other countries it is imho even more blatant and shocking.

I detest it.

In reply to TobyA:

Quite different?  If the refugees are a different race to the majority then I'd have thought the issues are very much in the same ballpark.

It's not a question I'd ask in a professional setting. As part of an assessment I'd commonly seek details of social history such as employment, access to familial and social support, general mental wellbeing. This perhaps makes it sound more formal than it is, part of recording accurate physiological readings is putting a patient at ease, so informal chat while taking blood pressure, heart rate, respiration rate etc, is all part of the process. Asking people how they're finding their new home is a fairly natural conversational gambit. Asking my British born BAME friends if they're feeling racially discriminated against this week would seem awkward in the extreme, it's just not something that comes up a lot but when it has experiences vary from them not finding British society at all racist to viewing the country as entirely institutionally racist at a low background level (interestingly, my friend who holds this view also lives in the least white area).

I'd agree to an extent, though I'd have thought most refugees arrived as asylum seekers (not a process I'd claim any great knowledge of). 

Edit: any of the dislikers care to enlighten me as to what you're finding so objectionable here?

In reply to Pefa:

What's more I am deeply ashamed of these xenophobes blighting this great country and not treating everyone the same, its deeply embarrassing when a foreign family member is constantly telling you of their new xenophobic experiences practically every week. It makes you very ashamed. 

In reply to Gone for good:

I think it's an awful lot better than it was. We no longer have companies that employ only Protestants or Catholics which was the case with Glenfield and Kennedy/ Glacier Metals in Kilmarnock when I was a student. Rangers and Celtic/Hibs and Hearts no longer have exclusively Protestant or Catholic players. Companies no longer ask your religion on job application forms etc etc. It's still there but slowly fading away.

I'm pretty sure it all stemmed from the "refugees" who escaped Ireland in the nineteenth century and were overwhelmingly Catholic. "Coming over here, taking our jobs.." the prejudices aren't really different from the ones we here today in England where immigration is far larger than in Scotland.

I'd also call it bigotry rather than racism. Racism used to mean regarding other racial different groups as inferior to your own group. My own view is that it's a much worse view to hold than bigotry where a group is discriminated against because their religion or language is different.

Racism gives you permission to treat people as if they aren't really people. It gives you permission to use them as slaves or exterminate them in gas chambers.

In reply to Removed User:

I agree its much better than it was but its still there and rears its ugly head far too frequently. You can call it bigoted or whatever other name suits but it all comes down to ignorance and intolerance and from those two bedfellows we concieve racism, anti semitism, sectarianism etc.

In reply to Removed User:

I think personal eperience can be quite deceiving if it just so happens you are not directly affected by the issues. So I looked into some data.

An open access pdf of "State of the Nation: Ethnicity, Race and Inequality in the UK" can be found here.

https://library.oapen.org/handle/20.500.12657/22310

It reveals some quite significant statistical disparities across ethnic groups - ie comparing home ownership v renting, house sizes etc. 

I grew up in Newcastle, and I had a similar experience to the one you describe. I would have said surely Britain is not very racist at all.

I moved to London at some point and across three offices it was patently obvious that most people working in the offices - shared with different companie - were white (maybe not a surprise given ~80% the population is white) but practically the entire cleaning staff in each of the offices were BAME (very much not in line with the population as a whole).
The population of London is 60% white so less than the national 80%. 

I think this is a manifestation of systemic racism. I thought to myself, imagine if this the same in nearly every office in London? (Wild extrapolation, but it made me think).

Reading stuff like that report shows a cross section of the whole country that you won't have any contact with, rather than your own personal experience (maybe knowing a few thousand poeple in your lifetime).
So I think it gives a more accurate picture than what you've seen or heard from others ever could.

I think anything that promotes equal pay across people is important (race and gender), and any cause that attempts to provide more equal opportunities is also very important.

Its quite a different way of thinking about racism (ie disadvantaged by latent prejudices vs individual prejudice aginst an individual or group), but if you think about it in those terms the statistics, its hard to argue that if you were BAME you would not likely be disadvantaged in Britain.

 

In reply to Removed User:

Celtic always took in protestants. It was Hibs that didn't and Rangers that didn't take any catholics until 1986.

True but it also stems from the links between Scotland and Ulster protestants ie. Orange lodges. 

I see your point but if you take away the extremes you are left with a racist treating someone as second class, to be shouted at, ordered around, abused for being a different color or a xenophobe treating someone as second class, to be shouted at, ordered around, abused for being from across a border or a bigot treating someone as second class, to be shouted at, ordered around, abused for worshipping the same god but in a different way. 

It's all the same. Some people get away with treating others like shit and it is beyond contempt in every case and must be stopped. 

In reply to Pefa:

Are we talking about peoples religion, football hooligans or politics here, (I appreciate they're all enmeshed together over the border).  

All Catholics are beautiful anti-racists and all Protestants are irredeemable racists? You're seeing this through the lens of your own experiences, and dare I say prejudices.

Based on where I grew up, I could say that all Leeds United fans are racist thugs, (all the ones I knew in the eighties were), but I can say that supporters of other teams, (people I have selected as mates since then), aren't. The truth is there probably isn't much difference between them.

In reply to Removed User:

 

At the risk of getting badly off subject I think it is a bit more complex than that. Although its hard to split out what is racism from religious bigotry history provides plenty of examples of people being treated as less than human due to their religious beliefs.

In reply to Rigid Raider:

Nice broad brush there, a bit like Pefa.

So they're such a minority the decent Pakistanis are fleeing? White working class people generally leave their sink estates for the same reason.

I lived in Bradford for several years. I couldn't ascertain much difference between the number of scrotes in the poor white and poor Asian areas. Here's another anecdote. I used to work with an Asian lad, who got a West Indian electrician we both worked with to do some re-wiring on his house. Apparently the street were livid about him “bringing that monkey onto our street”. He was desperate to move to a decent area too.

I think everyone, me included, need to take a long hard look at our own prejudices.

In reply to Stichtplate:

Sure, but you're a sensitive snowflake so you probably won't like it.

"Hey, person newly arrived from a state where the government wanted to imprison, torture or murder you! Welcome to the UK, a state on whose decisions your very survival depends and which occasionally does send asylum seekers back home to be suffer horrible violence. I'm a functionary of that state. How are you finding it here?"

Well, I suppose that's one way of forming an opinion on what the UK is like for non-whites.

(And before you say you're bound by codes of conduct as a doctor etc, just remember it's not your view that counts, it's the person that's sat opposite you. They might not see you as impartially as you see yourself.)

The consistent eliding of the experience of refugees, asylum seekers, first generation and second (or later) generation immigrants, not to mention Asian/African/Afro-Carribean experiences, is a fairly consistent feature of debates around race on UKC.

Is it really that awkward to ask about their experience?

In reply to Ridge:

It's very different up here compared to England I can assure you. 

I don't have prejudices I just tell it like it is. What you are doing is feeling uncomfortable with what I have experienced constantly in this matter and because you either don't understand how things are up here or perhaps this goes against how you want the loyalist community to be seen you will even go ad far as to tell me that what I have experienced as a part of that community is wrong.

That is presumptuous, arrogant and dismissive yet I know you are none of those things. 

Don't get me wrong I would love to tell the world how completely welcoming all of Scots are to immigrants, catholics and other races but I would be lying and I can tell you categorically that in my experience and to the shame of Scotland it is ingrained in one particular section of the community, one I belong to.

And don't for one minute think I have some fondness for catholics. After what Catholic Europe did with their fascists from 1930s onward from Bavaria to Spain but up here it is turned on its head. 

In reply to seankenny:

Straight in with the insults. You're quite a knob aren't you Sean.

In reply to Stichtplate:

That would be part of trying to answer the initial question.  I spend more time with asylum seekers and refugees than any other group of people (its my job).  Without exception, they say we are the least racist country they have been in.  They also think we are a very tolerant country.  My work includes being a  formal 'Hate Crime Reporting Centre.'  We have zero formal complaints made in the last few years. Probably a few reasons why they don't report:  1)  they don't think anything will happen,  2) they come from countries which are more racist so aren't that bothered,  3)  fear of the police (although they seem to trust our police more than the police in their country of origin).

Controversially:  many of our service users display racist attitudes.  For example, my Palestinian friends show very racist attitudes to Jewish people (and I do understand the power dynamics of racism and oppression etc).

In reply to seankenny:

I reckon the current climate (Bexit, rise of UKIP etc) has given the minority racist voice a bigger and louder platform, and our media loves bad news so give it an even higher profile.  There has been spikes in reported race hate crime coinciding with things like Brexit, but the absolute numbers have still been low (still too high though).

Totally agree about not being complacent.

In reply to mick taylor:

Corresponds with my own much more limited experiences with mostly Afghans and Syrians. Not going to be a popular response on here though, as many white, middle class UKC posters seem heavily invested in displaying how woke they are by pissing all over the generally tolerant nature of their fellow countrymen.

Loads of good quality studies out there concluding that humans are pretty much hardwired to look unfavourably on outsiders. Cultural norms and education go some way to correcting such intrinsic prejudice. Is it really such a stretch to accept that the UK is marginally further along the path to civilising ourselves in this respect than a fair few other countries?

In reply to mick taylor:

You will know a great deal about asylum seekers so tell me what do they have possessions wise? What do they have as far as established family here? I would imagine they are extremely desperate people in fact probably one of the most desperate you can get. Desperate to be in this country and not the one they came from whether it's been torn apart by our bombs or some other reason.

So under those conditions how likely do you think they would be to diss this country or be seen as a trouble maker to natives and officialdom even if they did experience negative things? 

In reply to Stichtplate:

Maybe some people are but that doesn't mean all 'humans' are? 

In reply to Stichtplate:

I am a stinker! But you know what they say, wrestling with a pig gets you covered in mud, and the pig enjoys it My advice when dealing with knobs like me is to rise above it. You're playing to an audience, and it makes you look good.

But my manifest character flaws don't invalidate my point that perhaps you're looking for information which confirms your prior beliefs, which is what got you a dislike.

In reply to Removed User:

I watched something recently where this scholarly guy discussed the disparity between black Americans from African backgrounds and Carribbean backgrounds. The idea was that both would suffer similar disadvantages based on racism. The findings were one group had poor education and high imprisonment, while the other had excellent education and low imprisonment thus meaning it wasn't racial at all but group behaviours. 

White folk are the same. Some white groups are poorly educated and often go to prison. Others the opposite.

Could possibly be that racism is being perceived as a bigger problem than it really is?

In reply to Removed User:

Forgot to say:  football starts today and it got me thinking about the increase of racist incidents here (often highly publicised, massive anti-racist public support, clubs banning supporters, fellow supporters turning 'informant') compared to what happens in other parts of the world (thinking of England playing abroad and the vast numbers of racist chants) and the pathetic attempts of the governing bodies to sort.  As is often the case, its the monolithic institutions that are racist.

In reply to Pefa:

In my own capacity I reckon I get pretty honest responses. They've rung for help, they've invited me into their homes, they're happily allowing me to physically examine them and they're telling me details of their personal habits and bodily functions that they'd probably be hesitant to discuss with close friends. Believe me it's a job where people seem to open up quite easily and feel the need to unburden themselves of issues quite unprompted.

In reply to Removed User:

FYI the scholarly guy was black American. 

In reply to mick taylor:

This may be controversial for many people, but spend any time in a non-white family (over 15 years in my case, so it's not as if they're still watching their words around the white person) and you'll hear this sort of stuff, mainly but not entirely from older members of the family. Because, erm, they are kind of like us!

(Not having a go at you Mick, interesting post, just figured this is worth pointing out.)

In reply to Stichtplate:

Thanks im always interested to see your replies but my extensive question was directed specifically to Mr mick taylor since he has all the experience of working everyday with asylum seekers.

Whether he can answer me or not is another matter. 

In reply to Pefa:

I thought for the record that the thread on the Lime Kiln pub racist incident should be linked here...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/rock_talk/racism_at_the_lime_kiln-720831

In reply to Pefa:

Very varied, ranging from the clothes they arrived in (if via boat, smuggled) to much more (if via plane).

'What do they have as far as established family here? '

Very varied.  Many single men, once granted, apply for family reunion.  In Wigan we have a developing Sudanese community, and my observation is that most asylum seekers/refugees have a very strong sense of community.  When they arrive, they get 'dispersed' to a number of key areas to be housed by private companies (Serco cover NW England).  If they get 'granted', many will then move to be nearer family.  Quite common for Iranians to do this, as the UK already had a sizeable Iranian community.

'I would imagine they are extremely desperate people in fact probably one of the most desperate you can get. Desperate to be in this country and not the one they came from whether it's been torn apart by our bombs or some other reason. So under those conditions how likely do you think they would be to diss this country or be seen as a trouble maker to natives and officialdom even if they did experience negative things? '

Reasonable point.  We have excellent connections with local BME communities and word does get back to us.  Furthermore, there are specific initiatives that actually try and encourage the reporting of hate crime and, locally, they pick up very few.

In reply to Removed User:

I think the conflation between considering racism in Britain and the treatment of asylum seekers, immigrants or 'foreigners'* in this thread is not good.

There may be a degree of overlap and intersection between the two, but they are not the same issue.

The treatment of immigrants doesn't necessarily relate to the everday racism someone living in the UK might experience (the vast majority of whom will be British). There will be far more BAME British people currently living in Britain than BAME immigrants in a given year.

The oversight of this might seem trivial, but its not; it is assuming BAME people are foreign or immigrants when they are not. In terms of language, conflating the two issues assumes that you have to be an immigrant or foreign/non-British/extranational to experience racism and this insidiously implies that 'domestic racism' doesn't exist. I would have assumed domestic racism was the main issue when discussing racism in Britain.

Probably not deliberate by anyone at first, but those are some reasons why it is a problem.

*The word foreigner has definitely developed negative connotations in the last decade or so at least. We don't get to choose the trends of words so whether it should be bad or not, I would avoid using it. Foreign can be ok depending on usage, tone, and meaning: think about 'a foreign language' vs 'he looked foreign' (the latter could be very EDL). I used it in this post, I arguably shouldn't have.
 

In reply to harrison:

As has already been pointed out up thread, being from another country doesn't mean you're of another race, so while a white foreign national may be subject to prejudice or xenophobia, they're unlikely to be exposed to racism from other white people. Correspondingly, no one on here has assumed British BAME people are anything other than British.

In reply to deepsoup:

''Of more interest (and concern) than where we are, I would suggest, is in which direction we are moving.  Not the right way, I fear...'

This is what I think about a lot.  At first glance (especially given that 'first glance' is often about what the media feeds us) then there are plenty of examples that we are going the wrong way.  

And the wider BLM movement makes me ponder:  a campaign like this will be more effective with maximum people on board.  Not me, I'm already on board, but people discussed elsewhere, those who say 'I'm not racist but....'   Campaigns like BLM can actually polarise and increase racism.  I'm not saying campaigns should have to reduce their actions so as not to annoy the Far Right, but I recall a Mandela quote, something along the lines of 'for big change to happen both sides need to compromise, a lot'.  My opinion: to make sure we go in the right direction, we all need to get chatting more, listen more, be OK at challenging (even if that includes challenging BLM).  On my way to work i saw the graffiti  'white lives matter'.  Five Live DJ recently suggested calling it 'Black Lives Matter As Well'  might have been better.

In reply to Pefa:

You sound just like my Grandma 😉

I probably don't understand the sectarian thing other than as some sort of tribal identity, but I've no interest in the 1690 lot.

Your experience is your experience, and that affects your perception, especially if you didn't fit in or like the culture. (I'm similar, got out of the council estate I came from, severed all ties and never looked back. However I'm conscious I'm probably overly negative about that community as a whole.

Steady on, you'll make me blush 😀

In reply to DizzyVizion:

I think there's a lot of truth in what you say which is why I'm always careful about drawing conclusions from policing and employment statistics. 

In reply to DizzyVizion:

I think wealth, education and opportunity is at the heart of the question.

Statisically in Britain BAME people recieve less favour in all three areas.
"Ethnicity, Race and Inequality in the UK" - https://library.oapen.org/handle/20.500.12657/22310

That is why projects like https://www.stephenlawrence.org.uk/ are important.

It would also be fair to say rich white people recieve far more favour in those three areas than poor white people.

There is massive regional inequality in the UK too.

To answer the question you posed: I believe race based inequality in the UK is more significant than most White British people percieve it to be. 

Probably fair to say 'inequality in the UK is more significant than most people percieve it to be'.

In reply to mick taylor:

I actually thought this recently, if the hashtag was #blacklivesmattertoo would people who don't understand the issues buy in quicker? would it be more approachable?
There is a sour irony of watering it down for white people to more readily embrace it though.

In reply to DizzyVizion:

I think there are a number of issues effecting some BME communities (e.g. educational attainment) that some people put down to being racist when the cause is more complex.  And any analysis, even an informal online chat, runs the risk of being accused of generalising, being racist etc.  Taking poor educational attainment in certain BME communities as an example, factors may include parenting, poverty, ghettoisation, poorly funded education system, absent fathers, not valuing education and many more.  And some of these factors may have their roots in institutional racism.

In reply to harrison:

I'm not about to wade through the 316 pages of your link when there's far more succinct information available:

This data shows that: in 2017/18, White people made up 76.8% of those in further education, and 84.6% of the overall population of England (based on 2017 population estimates from the Office for National Statistics) Black people made up 6.6% of all further education participants, and 3.6% of the overall population.16 Apr 2019

Further, if you click on the link and scroll down to the graphical representation, of the five racial groups represented, only white participation in higher education is declining.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/education-skills-and-tra...

You've got a point with wealth distribution but not a clear cut one as a higher percentage of Indian households occupy the upper quintiles than do white British households. Easy to argue that much of the wealth in the better off households is handed down so would naturally benefit the sections of the community that have been settled here the longest.

https://www.ethnicity-facts-figures.service.gov.uk/work-pay-and-benefits/pa...

Not sure how you'd get measurable stats in the third area you identify; "Opportunity", but as you've pointed out with the project you linked as an example, there are many organisations doing great work to redress the perceived imbalance.

Yep, but not down to racism, so we can definitely say that inequality can arise separate from race.

Is your perception altered at all by the fact that black people access higher eduction at greater rates than white people or that Indian households are marginally wealthier?

I don't think anyone doubts that inequality in the UK is significant. It's just the reasons and solutions to that inequality that's up for debate.

In reply to harrison:

 

I agree. I think that is a more accurate statement.

In reply to Removed User:

I live in a new-build neighborhood. We bought our house nearly three years ago and houses here range from modest 2 bedroom homes to quite lavish 5 bedroom homes. The coach of the Scotland womens national football team lives here. The most lavish looking home in the entire neighborhood though is owned by a person who is black. He owns 3 lovely Mercedes Benz cars, a huge luxury Ford pickup truck - all of them black and with private matching plates. He also owns a big luxury campervan, which I am most jealous of. He's built a small building in his back garden too which may be a gym or something - looks really nice. I on the other hand own a standard 3 bedroom house, drive a VW Polo, and my wife drives a Toyota Aygo. We have a tiny hut in the back. That guy is likely well educated, works hard, and is friendly and likeable (I don't know him). Racism doesn't appear to be a problem where I am.

I worked in Asia for 3 years (South Korea and Thailand). Mega racists compared to the UK. I wasn't treated equally there at all and in fact I was openly hated by some people there just for being a white guy. Is the UK racist? Predominantly no is the answer.

Who are we comparing the UK with in this matter?

In reply to mick taylor:

Even controlling for that the evidence of discrimination is overwhelming.

One of the easiest ways to find out is simply to send CVs that indicate origin of applicant to many employers and monitor the callback rates.

To quote a few insights from this study:

"In spite of relatively strong laws prohibiting discrimination on ethnic, racial and religious grounds (the MIPEX index ranks Britain among the countries with the most favorable antidiscrimination policies, together with traditional countries of immigration like Canada and the US), the level of discrimination recorded in Britain, and its pervasiveness across occupations and groups, is not any lower than that found in the other European countries included in the GEMM study (Germany, Netherlands, Norway, Spain).

"Minorities from countries with a sizeable Muslim population (Pakistan, Bangladesh, the MENA region) face enormous barriers. To examine religious discrimination, we compared applicants who were working as volunteers in a Muslim community centre with applicants from the same country of origin who were doing voluntary work in a local community centre with no religious affiliation. Their callbacks barely differed. In other words, employers were reluctant to invite any applicant originating from Muslim-majority countries, regardless of whether or not they disclosed their religion in the job application. This finding echoes the strong anti-Muslim attitudes recorded in recent surveys."

http://csi.nuff.ox.ac.uk/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/Are-employers-in-Britai... 

In reply to harrison:

The two issues are deeply interlinked. All the studies show that biological race itself is less and less the problem, and more and more it is origin/culture/place of birth.

Obviously this may correlate with skin colour in some cases.

Take for example the right to rent policy introduced as part of the hostile environment. Landlords are threatened with very high fines if they rent to people who are unlawfully resident. Because the rules are extremely complex and checks difficult, it a strong incentive for landlord to discriminate against anybody they might perceive as foreigner.

A foreign sounding name, a darker skin colour, or an accent all of that will be associated in the landlords mind with a higher risk profile and a potential fine.

All these type of policy encourage discrimination even though very few landlords are probably  genuinely racist themselves.

This show how you can have discriminationatory behaviour occurring without anyone being actually racist.

In reply to Alyson30:

Pity the trial was limited to community centres.

Be nice to do the same across a number of industries and at different levels of seniority.

In reply to Removed User:

During the covid period BAME people have apparently been more likely to be fined by the police than white people.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-52905787

In reply to Removed User:

That's 11% of people, 1 in 10 people (at least!) that would put someone's race before the happiness of their child, that would judge someone solely on their ethnicity before knowing anything about a person.

If I was a black person attending an event with 100 white people and 89 of them are friendly and inclusive, my experience would probably still be ruined by the 11 KKK members in the corner. 

Not good enough. We can't say 'its getting better' by the extremely low bar set by us and other countries. 

In reply to harrison:

I get what you and other posters are saying, but it has been my experience that where one negative element exists in a person there'll be other ones lurking too, to do with being racist and also more inward looking/xenophobic (and one or two other negative traits, but I don't want to derail the thread). I think it'd be an unusual racist who wasn't also a xenophobe.

I dare say Eric9points may have had people being open minded in general lurking in the back of his mind when he started the thread, which is why racism and xenophobia are both covered, rather than the more negative interpretation of BAME people not being from the UK (it can be misplaced to assume the worst possibility).

Just a general musing...

In reply to jassaelle:

In my experience the British demographic most resistant to mixed marriages isn’t white. I think you’re amply demonstrating your own prejudices with the assumption that the 11% are monochrome.

In reply to Removed User:

Not sure just asking someone if they're racist gives very useful data. About 15 years ago I worked with a woman whose daughter married a black guy and she thought the world of him but still held incredibly racist views particularly towards asians.

She once said 'I'm not racist but if I went to the market and there was one stall run by a white guy and one by an Asian, I'd go to the white man's stall. I'm not racist I just don't trust em'.

In reply to Davidlees215: There's a psychological quirk known as 'sub typing' apparently, where somebody can have a particular friend or public figure who they think is great, and in other aspects still have latent prejudices against other people of the same race. I came across it in an article about Obama somewhere and any hopes of him improving things regarding racism in America.

Edit: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1207/s15327957pspr0501_4

Abstract  

Two processes of stereotyping, subtyping and subgrouping, are compared. Subtyping occurs when perceivers respond to members of a target group who disconfirm their stereotypes by seeing them as exceptions to the rule and placing them in a separate subcategory apart from members who confirm the stereotype.

In reply to Stichtplate:

I don't think anything they said implied that they do think the 11% are monochrome. If you're taking the wedding analogy that literally, it would also imply that the UK as a whole is 99% white and 11% KKK members.

In reply to Alyson30:

Will have a good read (just got some funding to develop a project around employing refugees, could be useful info in that so thanks).

One thing I don’t get though is that unless the researchers knew the total number of none Muslim applicants then they would have no idea whether or not the employer was being anti Muslim. In other words, some employers may reject nearly everyone irrespective of religion etc. 
Also, I do believe that HR in many employing organisations (Public sector) simply wouldn’t let this happen.

For the record, I don’t doubt anti Muslim attitudes like this exist, but still not sure to what extent.

In reply to Timmd:

I heard that one of the reasons for this was that the police were more likely to be patrolling neighbourhoods of higher than average people with BME backgrounds because these areas are often higher crime rate areas (and I do understand links between racism, oppression and crime). 
I would also add from my work perspective that many asylum seekers appeared to disobey lockdown rules - they simply didn’t understand them - so we made it our job to make sure they did (eg multi language info hand delivered to every asylum house).

In reply to Luke90:

The original study was on British attitudes. He constructed an analogy with the same percentages as the original study but chose to make the wedding guest white wedding guests and not British wedding guests. His prejudice is implicit in his analogy.

In reply to mick taylor:

That's quite interesting, that it could be about more than 'Let's target that person' - as it were.

In reply to Removed User:

It wasn't limited to that. Only one small part of the study was to investigate whether making obvious the religious affiliation made any difference. It didn't, if you came from a Muslim country, regardless of whether the CV made it obvious that you were Muslim, you were heavily discriminated against by the employer.

It highlights the complexity of the issue as those perpetuating the discrimination are generally not aware of it, in fact, not being aware of their own bias it's a tell-tale sign in my experience. People who are the most certain of their lack of prejudice are often the most prejudiced.

They may deeply hold a belief that people of all colours are equal and yet discriminate people they subconsciously associate to religion, culture, origin, or "foreignness" they think is bad or inferior. It can also mix with feelings of national pride, national identity, etc etc.

And when they are told there is systemic racism they shake their head in disbelief, because they think "I really have nothing against black people and have several black friends,  I don't know anybody who does, so I don't recognise the country as systematically racist". 

In reply to balmybaldwin:

I with you there definitely, I can't believe the lengths that some people distort the truth to suit their thoughts.

People seem really angry that black people are asking for equality.

A lad I know from home, went to prison on firearms charges, he had a gun which could fire bullets, he's into re-enactments etc. He's a really nice lad and I believe he didn't have the gun for nefarious purposes, but he's quite blasé about George Floyd being killed, because he'd been to prison before. There's no irony in his posts or the people who know the story either.

In reply to Pefa:

I find it interesting that you've noticed that racism and xenophobia can both go together as well. It doesn't have to follow that every loyalist is a racist xenophobe, even if it seems to be that every loyalist you've met is one.

In reply to Removed User:

Some random musings on racism from my perspective. Grew up in London. Have lived in northern Italy now for 25 years. White, blues eyes, blond hair.

Went climbing in Arco. Hadn't been here long. Camped at the main campsite there. V popular destination for Germans, who are very important to the local economy. Was signing in at reception. The old guy at the desk frostily took my passport, saw that it wasn't German, visibly warmed and remarked: "Oh! You're not German! We don't like the Germans".
And generally that's the feeling about the Germans. So cos I look like I could be German and talk with a foreign accent, when I meet people who could be hostile to me, I 'play the race card' and tell them I'm British, so they don't think I'm German and adopt their default position of being hostile to me. Very weird. And I think it's given me just the merest inkling of what BAME people have to deal with all the time: living life in a state of doubt about how the next stranger you meet is going to be negatively judging you because of what you look like.

Generally here, 99% of BAME people have it pretty tough. Most are first generation & are doing the jobs that locals don't want to do. They have almost no opportunity for social mobility: they're poor. This means that the locals look down on them. I teach English. One of my nice-as-pie adult students handed in an essay about public transport in which she'd written: "I don't like taking buses because there are too many black people on them". I was shocked to the core. It was a grotesque illustration of how locals conflate race and poverty. And poverty with risk. And with that, suspicion and caution and fear quickly follow.

Many BAME people living here are Moroccan. Even the Italian word seems imbibed with racism - "Marocchino" translates to "Little Moroccan". The local newspapers are openly racist & it's clear to me they're just allowed to get away with it. One story, at Christmas. Churches here erect huge nativity scenes outside with life-size models. A man who appeared to be BAME was seen vandalising one of these nativity scenes and somebody gave chase but failed to catch him. The article in the local newspaper said "The Moroccan escaped"!!! If they didn't catch him, how do they know?

Already before Covid locals were suspicious of Chinese people. Common tropes are "They're Chinese mafia" (rather than "They're industrious") and "They eat cats" (I sh*t you not!). My friend's girlfriend is Chinese (she used to work for The North Face Europe). She's having a torrid time with people being openly racist towards her.

So I'm hyper sensitive to the plight of anybody from BAME groups here, and am hyper sensitive to racism in general in a way that never even crossed my mind growing up in London/SE England. From my perspective, GB is not perfect, but is trying much harder to address racism than any efforts I see here.

In reply to Timmd:

Yes I'm not for one minute saying ever Loyalist is a xenophobe or racist as a huge amount are not its just every xenophobe I have known happened to be of that ilk. Its more in their culture for some reason as is fascism and homophobia(although that I have seen in the Catholic community as well as the protestant but not as much) whereas the Irish community are more welcoming of everyone perhaps due to the fact their previous generations were forced to do a lot of immigrating themselves and know how hard it is. 

In reply to Pefa:

That should be the same for the Italian population local to me, but certainly doesn't seem to be the case here. A friend of mine teaches history in a secondary school. He has a text written describing the immigrants as being 'smelly, sly, having too many kids, living too many to a house' etc etc... He gets his kids to read it and asks which immigrant community is being described. They'll come out with all the local BAME community, or perhaps even southerners cos there's lots of racism against southerners here. Then he reveals to them that it was a description written about Italian immigrants to the US some time back by a prominent US politician IIRC. 

In reply to Kean:

I'm half Italian (mum from northern Italy) and I agree with you completely.  

As Trevor Noah (mixed-race South African) says "racism doesn't survive contact".   If you spend your time among a diversity of people, the fears and prejudices erode, though it takes time, and some will resist. That was the basis for Apartheid: keep people apart and you maintain prejudice - which is one of the reasons to invest in diversity in institutions that don't have much of it.  

I think most Italians haven't spent as much time in diverse friend groups, work places, schools, universities etc as many British people have. Their immigration tends to be more recent and there are still relatively few Black Italian-born adults. 

The fact we are a more tolerant society than some others around us doesn't mean we can be complacent and self-congratulatory,  or that just putting people in the same space is enough, but it's encouraging.  As is this whole thread.

In reply to Stichtplate:

I thought it was great that I could read such a detailed report for free.

Thanks for the links you sent, they were interesting.

There seems to be a commonality between the two points you raise (sorry for paraphrasing): ‘some BAME people are doing well, so does that change your perception of inequality?’

(if this isn’t how you meant it, my journey has started several degrees off course )

This feels a bit like what has been getting termed ‘whataboutism’ - holding up a specific positive example doesn’t invalidate all the other real issues.

What I took away from the last table on that housing link was that if you are BAME you are more likely to be in the lowest quintile.

Yes the inequality is less if you are Indian - but still 4% above the baseline in the lowest quintile.

My take away from the table is similar to the summary they offer:

Its good that the distribution for Indian people are more or less in line with the white-british distribution - but it doesn’t lessen the inequality for other BAME groups.

On further education - I think FE is very important however I think more fundamental to equality is making sure that all children have two things:

Adequate food.

Access to a basic education.

This might sound stupidly basic, but these are two of the biggest ‘predictors’ for a child’s potential. There are more BAME kids on free school meals. Free school meals are not just about kids being hungry (as I wrongly assumed at some point) - they literally have a positive effect on a child’s development/future.

So in this case I would say that basic education is more important than further education.

The only statistic I find alarming there is the recent drop in white students. I think the same trend is currently true for university admissions.

I think the starting point of equality is to help the most disadvantaged people - so for housing, I’m more concerned with the lowest quintiles than the uppermost quintile.

I’m not sure what you have concluded from the points you made - in my opinion it doesn’t change the major trend. The Indian housing distribution is quite positive though.

I think the definition of racism is different to each person. I think in the UK we should broaden it from overt racism (the lady who didn’t trust the asian market-stall owner) to include more subtle prejudices and how they affect the treatment of people and the opportunities people have. (Exactly what the stephen laurence report was about and what the trust is about I guess)

Many other posts refer to the UK vs other countries:
I understand that the UK in 2020 is ’less racist’ than other countries but I think it would be better if we could reduce inequality further.

I think recognising that racial inequality exists is essential in understanding and accepting a broader idea of what racism can mean.

I don’t think anyone argues that these racial inequalities are brought about by overt racism. 

I feel like I’ve said too much on the topic and really we should be listening to the opinions of British BAME people or POC on the topic, not me.

Just wanted to share what I had learned and promote looking at the facts.

In reply to Alyson30:

I agreed with this in my post - however if the first thing you think of when someone says racism is xenophobia and anti-foreign attitudes then you have glossed over the very real racism British people are experiencing in their daily lives.

It would be a bit like a friend talking to me about general sexism affecting her day to day life and me replying ‘yes, rape is bad’. It shows I don’t understand the issues. And it ignores stuff like: sexual assault on the bus, people assuming she’s stupid, men explaining what she just said back to her in meetings, a man not taking the hint/directly saying that she’s not interested and a ton of other things I’ll never experience and will only understand by listening.

As an example: being more likely to be stopped and search by the police because you’re a young black man. This is real and affects people.

The police who stop them aren’t xenophobic, they’re decent people.

They aren’t consciously stopping them because they’re black - but they are more likely to stop a black man.

So, given the modern definition, that is racist.

It doesn’t have to come from a bad place - if someone is treated/affected negatively because of their race, ethnicity, skin colour etc it is racism.

What you call genuinely racist I’ve referred to as ‘overt racism’.

This other latent racism / prejudice/ discriminatory behaviour has become part of the definition of racism.

Also called systemic / institutional / societal racism.

In reply to Alyson30:

btw I just wanted to say sorry - I replied in a rush and I have a regret - my reply should have really been to Timmd’s post in which he made a similar point in stronger terms. My post wasn’t specifically aimed at you.

And I should have said:

’if the first thing one thinks of when’ as I didn’t mean you (or anyone else posting) personally.
A bit too high brow for me to say ‘one’.

I also think your point was valid - I wasn’t intending to disagree with what you were saying. I totally agree things outside of a person’s control can make them behave in a discriminatory way - but I do think we should be saying that the effect or outcome is racist (even if the person did not intend to be).

So - I’m sorry if my reply was obstinate or condescending! it shouldn’t have been a direct response to you and I believe you already understand what I said in it. So I don’t think that you don’t know!

wanted to say so in case you read and think: bit of a ****

In reply to harrison:

See stop and search is held up an example of racism but I completely disagree with that point. A principle reason that stop and search was reintroduced was because of the high rates of knife crime where unfortunately the majority of the victims are young black men.

It's not only young black men that are stopped and searched (actually as a number, not a percentage more white people are) but they are disproportionately searched because unfortunately they are more likely to be in areas affected by the issue.

I believe racism is still an issue in the UK but I'm fed up of things bring turned into a race issue when they are not. Stop and search has proven to reduce deaths from knife crime and given that the overwhelming majority of victims are black, surely black lives matter should be in support of this policy? 

In reply to Danbow73:

This is worth a read:

https://fullfact.org/crime/does-stop-search-work/

It's very measured and points to some positive effects of stop and search as well as the obvious negative ones:

"A recent paper by Professor Bradford and colleagues Dr Matteo Tiratelli and Dr Paul Quinton says:

“We used ten years of police, crime and other data from London to investigate the potential effect of stop and search on crime.

“We find that S&S has only a very weak and inconsistent association with crime. While there is some correlation, most notably in relation to drug offences, we conclude that the deterrent effect of S&S is likely to be small, at best…

“We struggled to find evidence of an effect of S&S on violent crime.”

They found that after a 10% increase in stop and search during a given month, recorded drug offences would be 1.85% lower during the next month, while non-domestic violent crime was 0.01% lower."

In reply to seankenny:

I wonder whether that could be applied in some way to the exchange between the black labour MP and the Asian Home Secretary. There was clear a dislike shown by the labour MP of the Home Secs. comments as if the Home Sec couldn’t understand what racial abuse was because she wasn’t ‘black’. 

I don’t like the Home Sec but I feel she gave a good argument, despite her probable privileged background, that she was in the same position regarding racial abuse as a ‘black’ person. 

In reply to seankenny:

As you say, a very measured summary. Important to note the findings that S&S may be effective as an investigatory tool.

In reply to didntcomelast:

I understand that she went to a comprehensive school so it must be her parents flogging newspapers  that makes her privileged.

In reply to Removed User:

Yes Britain is racist. All the raging racism on ukc forums proves it. Some people even voted for Brexit they are that racist. I've even heard climbers say that the White cliffs of Dover aren't climbed out of respect for white people and we dont  care about the damage we do to rocks of colour.

In reply to Tom Valentine:

I stand corrected. 

In reply to harrison:

No problem, my point really isn’t in opposition to yours, I am simply saying that racist behaviour can be the result of xenophobic and nationalistic behaviour, and I believe that to be the main driver of racism today in western countries.

The number of people who think BAME are an « «inferior » race is probably vanishingly small, appart from a few EDL nutcases. Thankfully this type of attitude has been largely marginalised.

However the number of people who think that their culture, country, basically where they are from is « better » and must be protected from « outsiders » is generally on the up. So you get hostile environment, brexit, etc etc. 
This form of cultural exceptionalism doesn’t have a racist intent, but it translates, in practice to racist policies and behaviours.

The tragedy is that it seems anti-racist groups have not understood this. They are still stuck on slavery / colonialism and don’t understand that are fighting ghosts of the past and ignoring the real causes. All they do is alienate people who don’t recognise themselves in the racist attitudes being portrayed.

Result: an increasingly large number of people I’ve known for years and I know are intelligent, moderate and tolerant people are now posting 24/7 alt-right stuff on their Facebook and are slowly becoming proper nasty racist.

To the delight of the powers at be who can use this massive distraction to their advantage to keep pushing their ethno-nationalist agenda peacefully.

In reply to Danbow73:

Ooop, I didn't mean to open a can of worms - it was just meant as an example of non-xenophobia related racism. I could have said casual racism at work. Totally unacceptable and it happens.
Or hiring biases - people subconsciously preferring someone who is more like themselves, a known phenomena and not related to anti-immigration sentiments.

I agree with you in a sense that knife crime not a race issue, and is influenced or enabled by social factors (poverty, poor education - which you allude to) but I do believe the critique that stop and search is ineffective and disproportinate is valid. I also think stop and search could be carried out in a proportionate way; I also think there are better ways to attempt to tackle knife crime / male youth violence.

I also believe it would be possible as a BAME person to percieve that stop and search was unfair, even if it was effective and proportionate without this being contradictory - and thats important too.

I feel compelled to stand up for stop and search being a race issue though.
With stop and search you're 6-9 times as likely to be searched if you're black than if you're white - whatever the extensive reasons behind that are, being black has contributed to you being stopped - consciously or subconsiously - by the way you look, or the ethnic make-up of the area you live in.
Dorset and Hampshire used to be (2007) some of the worst areas for the disproportionate ratio of black/white searches, despite both having a very limited black population - so that doesn't fit the BAME area mould.

>young black men are disproportionately searched because unfortunately they are more likely to be in areas affected by the issue

The people critiquing the policy do actually consider the make-up of the resident population (the local area), available population (who is actually around when and where - 'stop zones' -  the searches take place), the crime rate of local the area and after all that they still determine that the application is disproportionate and discriminatory.

The disproportionate use of powers like stop and search have been questioned from 1999 in the Lawrence Inquiry to the present day. I think saying stop and search is not a race issue in any way is quite bold!

You say you're sick of things being turned into a race issue - I'd be interested to know how something being a race issue affects you - to the point that you are frustrated with it, and have had enough?

In contrast to the 'measured' lightweight review Sean shared, here are some actual heavy hitting critiques that heavily lambast the policy:

Stop and think: A critical review of the use of stop and search powers in England and Wales
Equality and Human Rights Commision
(2010)
https://www.equalityhumanrights.com/sites/default/files/ehrc_stop_and_searc...
This one has a very short executive summary on page 5 and 6

Disproportionate and Discriminatory: Reviewing the Evidence on Police Stop and Search
Modern Law Review
Ben Bowling, Coretta Phillips
(2007)
https://www.stop-watch.org/uploads/documents/modern_law_review.pdf
The abstract is pretty powerful:
Nothing has been more damaging to the relationship between the police and the black community than the ill-judged use of stop and search powers. For young black men in particular, the humiliating experience of being repeatedly stopped and searched is a sad fact of life, in some parts of London at least. It is hardly surpris-ing that those on the receiving end of this treatment should develop hostile attitudes towards the police. The right to walk the streets is a fundamental one, and one that is quite rightly jealously guarded.

Ben Bowling is an academic who has worked with the police to improve stop and search practice.