UKH

I’ve been keeping up my outdoor activities (running and cycling) a lot more this year which has resulted in several occasions (pretty much weekly) where I get home utterly bitterly cold with cold feet and perhaps soaked to the bone with freezing cold water. Have been experiencing the agonising hot aches when you get in the shower after so try to get warm up a bit first if I’m not too muddy. 

I’ve got the kit like thermals and waterproof trail shoes and stuff but sometimes it’s just not enough or you misjudge the weather I guess.

My question is where is the line (however blurred) between just run of the mill going for a run or bike ride in the cold / wet, and actually doing some harm or getting frost bite? 

I’ll never forget reading on here years ago some experienced fell runner going for an easy local run in the snow and got back with frost bite / nip on his toes. Can’t remember the details but he made out it was a typical run and he didn’t realise til he got back. This was in proper hills though I guess, in the snow, not like Belper where I live. 

Hypothermia will probably get you first!

How so?, Hypothermia is when your core temp drops too far, frost bit affects the extremities Al the blood pulls away to keep the core warm. 

I'd agree with Theresa here. In the middle of England, I would say it would have to be a pretty exceptional situation for you to get frostbite before you got hypothermic.

I don't know what the best way to determine if you are getting hypothermic is but when I start worrying that it might be kicking in, I try to watch for a) getting lost on ground I know well b) repeated stumbling and loss of coordination c) inability to think through and answer long division or multiplication calculations in my head. Of course, if you get home in this frozen, soaking state, you can stick a thermometer in your mouth and find out - you might find you are already hypothermic and just haven't noticed the effects.

Really does sound like you need to dress up properly when you go out and avoid the mentality of "it's ok if I get soaked and freezing because I'll be home for a hot shower soon" because if anything goes wrong (like you break an ankle and can't walk), you will immediately stop producing all that extra heat from vigorous exercise and if you are already pretty cold, you could be in serious trouble in just a few minutes.

No it won’t. I had frostbite first followed by hyperthermia. Black fingers for 3 months

I think getting very cold toes in British wet cold conditions, is slightly different from frostbite or frostnip in dry and very cold conditions. Neither are pleasant experiences, but I think something different physiologically speaking is going on. I've had a couple of brushes with frostbite and it was an alarming experience despite the slightly jovial tone of the following:  https://lightfromthenorth.blogspot.com/2007/02/frostbite.html

I'm not sure of the source, but my husband was reading something about fell running which said that you are more likely to injure yourself if you are a bit cooler when running than a bit warmer. He tends to favour dressing lightly but has started wearing leggings more in this weather since reading that. Basically better to err on the side of warmth than stay cooler. 

Classic signs of starting to head towards hypothermia are the -umbles. Stumbles, fumbles, grumbles, mumbles, tumbles. 

Don't start umbling!

Sounds like you need to just dress better. Too cold, not sure, below -20-25c maybe. If it's below -10c and I'm training hard or long I wear one of these;

 http://www.airtrim.se/eng/ 

Yeah reading this and reading about frost bite and hypothermia I think on the days when I’ve got home freezing cold the temperature has probably been between 0-4 degrees, especially the day when I got rained on it would’ve been above zero. So I imagine you could easily get hyperthermia in those conditions, especially if you broke your ankle, but even if you were naked you wouldn’t be in the -0.5c that the NHS said gives you frostbite. So I can see how you could get hypothermia but not frostbite. I don’t think I was probably close to either, maybe I’m just a wimp! I always wear leggings I don’t understand how you could wear shorts it must be absolute torture, or maybe everyone feels the world differently. 

I've posted this link a couple of times in the past, still a good, cautionary tale;

https://www.accelerateuk.com/buzz/2016/11/hypothermia-as-a-lifestyle-choice...

You need to follow the example of the three young guys I passed today, making their way up to the Kilpatrick hills...drinking cans of Tenants. At lunchtime with temps of -8°C with the wind chill.

Some people feel the cold more than others but it really sounds like you need better clothing.  Not all thermals (*) are equal and not all waterproofs are equal either.

(*) the phrase ‘thermals’ is very outdated IMHO.  Understanding base layers and insulating layers as being designed for different functions, is worth getting into.  

Thanks for the share! I had no idea how long it takes to actually recover from hypothermia!

For me the section about 'how long it took to recover' was the most eye-opening bit of the article - shocking stuff!

I prefer shorts to leggings as I don’t like wet cold material sticking to my legs. However my legs don’t tend to feel the cold.

My upper half does so I do layer up, keep warm and wear gloves 

I have Raynaud's, and generally pretty poor circulation and thermoregulation. I've had frostnip from sitting in my home; with spots of black, dead skin in the tips of my toes. I now wear a pair of Merrell primaloft booties around the house...

According to Prof Mike Tipton, non-freezing cold injury (ie not frostbite) is the largest cause of disability in UK armed service. 

It can be dibilitating and apparently can cause pain if you repeatedly get extremities v cold.

Try to avoid it. 

Not so, I got frost nip on my nose, it was on the top of Aonach Mor, quite windy. Spin drift was melting on my face. Put on ski goggles and pulled up my snod but my nose was sticking out. Anyway I got an actual blister and my nose was red for weeks, I have to be more careful of it now as it’s prone to cold issues. You’d be surprised how many people winter climbing have had it in their toes too.

I wasn’t close to being hypothermic and I probably got the frost nip in 30 mins or so I guess. I believe the temperature wasn’t far below zero either, I think it was the melting spindrift and wind that did it.

Indeed, from someone who seemed to know, they said it can take a year plus for cellular damage from frost nip to repair and you should avoid any risk of chilling the same area again for at least a year. Even then repeated chilling could leave digits prone forever. 

Yeah. Winter climbing; periods of inactivity, metal fastened to boots conducting heat away and a temptation to over tighten boots to improve the fit on steep ground. 

When it's cold, I try to dress so I don't need to take hat or gloves off to vent heat, always at least having a thin layer over potentially exposed extremities, rather than over dress the core then try to lose heat elsewhere. 

Nipped on a climb once.. since then, my fingertips tingle in cold weather, even when warm. Not a problem, but a definite before and after change

Thanks for that. A good read, if a little sobering. I think we've all skirted that point at some time or another.

Edit: I've dropped a good stone, maybe a stone and a half since Christmas 2019/Jan 2020. I've been surprised this winter with how much more susceptible to cold I am when running.

I used to race XC skiing in my youth. At that point, races would be postponed if the temperature was below -18C, persumably because it's 0F. I have trained in -30C, but wouldn't recommend that.

I worked a couple of years as an alping instructor in the US. One year we had a ten day period when it was at least -35F (-37C) when we got to work. People still showed up for class as they had paid in advance. We'd usually end up taking one run and then thawing the forstbitten faces in the lodge.

I think your activity probably plays a big role in where you draw the line. If you're doing something quite aerobic, you can likely handle a lower temperarure. The other important factor is wind chill, either from the wind blowing or you moving fast. I've gotten frostbite on my face several times when skiing downhill, but never XC. I chalk that up to the wind chill.

The way you stride in skate XC skiing means each stride you sort of spread your legs. I remember a wonderful sunny day, -15 when I decided to tour all round Helsinki using the urban ski tracks. It was brilliant but after maybe about 4 hrs I got home and realised the, well you know what - the little fella downstairs - was exceedingly cold. I soon realised why Craft and other Nordic ski oriented firms made pants with windproof bits over the 'pouch'! Perhaps not the optimal spot to get frostnip.

But probably a great way to get a cheap circumcision...

I started reading your post and immediately thought of those pants. Some solutions don't make sense until you've experienced the problem.

We've been XC skiing and running recently in temperatures from -20C to -38C (not with wind chill) without issues.  The problem is not overdressing and sweating, but keeping your extremities warm.  Running is OK with mitts, but XC skiing needed hand warmers or our electric gloves.  The only issues were keeping your face from getting frost nipped - it's hard to wear a mask and glasses, so I had to keep blowing on my cheeks and nose.  The slightest breeze makes it brutal, and obviously if you're forced to stop for any reason you'd be in trouble very quickly.

Its been down to -35 or colder here for the last 10 days. Me, the wife and the kids went X country skiing and it was about -28. I had to keep stopping to warm my hands but probably because I had older gloves on. The rest of me was warm. TBH, we only went about 3km and that was enough. -15 is a really nice temp to X country ski in but its worth noting just how dry it is. I've definitely been "colder" on a wet Scottish mountain!

Get yourself a pair of sealskin socks to keep your feet drier. That'll stop them getting as cold. Also a pair of thin gloves for you fingers if they're bothering you. 

You really shouldn't be getting the hot aches when running.

Some good cautionary tales here as I tend to run hot so have a habit of underdressing and have been caught out a few times although no lasting damage. As others have said I get caught out XC skiing and always end up with painfully cold fingers for about the first 20 minutes - I don't think the straps on your hands help as they don't do wonders for circulation, although I think mine must be poor anyway.

Have been afflicted by the cold todger that TobyA mentioned although thankfully everything is present and correct still - when I first moved to France in the winter of 2011/2012 it was during a huge cold snap and temps of -25º which was a bit of a shock to the system and took some getting used to. Thankfully those are exceptional temperatures but that makes it all too easy to forget how quickly things can get bad.

Newer style straps are better than the old fashioned loops as they dig in less, but you still need to be careful not to over tighten. Mitts are essential when cold, if it's really cold I've used lobster claw ones that are for cycling as they had better wind proofing. On downhill gliding sections, hands behind the back rather than out front protects them from some extra cooling too. 

I have Raynauds so most bike rides in the winter result in the dreaded dead white fingers and toes. Thankfully not normally enough for the hot aches though. Being well hydrated does make a difference but normally just to the number of fingers that “go”. I’ve learned not to have a hot shower straight away but instead warm up slowly then have a warm(but not hot) shower.  
I’ve had frostnip from Snowboarding in Canada and it does take a while to fully recover from It. I had a distinctly waxy and numb toe for months and very cold sensitive toes for best part of a year. I also had it on my cheeks right where the air vents in my goggles were. Serves me right for hooning it down the fast runs in -26C.

Maybe it’s cumulative- years winter climbing getting hot aches every time you put the Dachsteins back on, snowboarding off piste and all that comes with it, running/cycling in sub-optimal conditions/kit?

I don't get hot aches when my extremities recover from Raynaud's. I have had them when I've got 'normally cold'; blue fingers, rather than white...