/ Hong Kong protests

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neilh 12 Aug 2019

Amazed there is no discussion on the HK protests.

How are the demos in HK going to end? Just cannot imagine Chinese ruling party ceding anything to them.

David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

Neither Boris, Farage, Trump, racism, or Leavers can be blamed. So no discussion.

I hope they get what they want.  I expect the Chinese population wish them well too.

6
john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

> Neither Boris, Farage, Trump, racism, or Leavers can be blamed. So no discussion.

Well at least, in trying to have a dig at Remainers, you've accepted that your list of undesirables are to blame for things! ;)

> I hope they get what they want.  I expect the Chinese population wish them well too.

I heard a podcast on the topic the other day and it explained that the population in China were broadcasting news of the HK protests but portraying the protesters as thugs and anarchists, so I expect that most of the population in China isn't being offered much by way of reason to wish them well. A bit like the UK press printing overwhelmingly negative stories about the EU for the last few decades, and often untruthful ones at that. You can hardly blame people for believing what they read.

5
David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

You are wrong.  I was not having a dig at Remainers.  Merely noting with amusement how fixated discussion on here has become.  Neither have I accepted that those are "to blame for things".  Quite the opposite. You are obsessed.

As here, (if not more so) I'm sure the Chinese don't believe what they are told.  Do you ?

5
john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

> You are wrong.  I was not having a dig at Remainers.  Merely noting with amusement how fixated discussion on here has become.  

... in a loaded kind of way that's all but indistinguishable from having a dig. Yes, I agree.

> As here, (if not more so) I'm sure the Chinese don't believe what they are told.  Do you ?

The podcast seemed to suggest that the media tactic is having the desired effect. People apparently feel that, because it's reported in the news, they are informed as to what's going on and presumably feel that they are forming their own opinions.

Slanted news leads to slanted opinions. The depressing facet of UK and US public opinion nowadays is that people seem increasingly keen to censor their own news, as well as having lies masquerading as news circulated through social media to help them to form the opinions that those at the helm of Trump and Brexit would like them to hold.

David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

But I expect you consider yourself to be immune from that ?

4
john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

> But I expect you consider yourself to be immune from that ?

Far from it. Why would you expect that? I'm as human as the next person. But being aware of it, I'm open to the possibility that things I read, hear and watch might be one-sided, so even though I prefer reading things that confirm my existing notions I'm very much open to reasoned critique and opposite opinion if supported by rational rather than simply emotional argument.

mbh 12 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

My daughter lives there, in Central. I am very worried. Central is the finance district on Hong Kong Island, near where it all kicked off.

I was there in April and recognised how difficult it is, in the complete absence of language comprehension, to grasp the nuances, or even the sharp corners of what is going on. I stayed a couple of MTR stops away in Wan Chai, where it has also been lively.

I was hugely impressed by the place. That doesn't mean I would want to live there, but it was dynamic in a way I have never known. Why would China want to dismantle that?

I know about surveillance and so on, but cannot imagine how a Tiananmen style repression could work there. How could you send tanks into a place like that?

David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

Don't you think the same is true of the Chinese, or is there some reason why you are special ?

4
john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

> Don't you think the same is true of the Chinese, or is there some reason why you are special ?

Have you not heard of the Great Firewall of China?

And you seem keen to try to paint me in a bad light. Would it make it easier for you to dismiss what I'm saying out of hand if you were able to discredit some unrelated aspect of my character?

David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

I find your attitude very odd.  My own way of drawing conclusions is to consider information that I have and decide.  I am not really influenced by media propaganda.  

" I prefer reading things that confirm my existing notions"  Does not make any sense to me.

"I'm very much open to reasoned critique and opposite opinion if supported by rational rather than simply emotional argument."  Although you are saying you can change your mind if argued with, it reads as though you have to have the case made for you, rather than work out an answer yourself from things you know.

3
David Riley 12 Aug 2019

Rather than just allowing myself to get dragged off topic. I am actually making a point that propaganda does not really have the effect people think, and the Chinese must see through it.  Improvements in Hong Kong are also good for the Chinese people.

5
neilh 12 Aug 2019
In reply to mbh:

What is your daughter view?

john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

I'm not sure that further poring over details is going to achieve much but I think it is pretty much impossible for anyone, including you and I, not to be influenced by media propaganda.

Furthermore, everyone likes to feel pampered by hearing further support for what they already believe to be true, whereas considering reasoned argument to the contrary can be uncomfortable. It's not surprising that people will tend to avoid uncomfortable situations.

Your last paragraph doesn't make a lot of real world sense. Nobody arrives at opinions purely from raw data. Everyone builds opinions based on news reports, opinion pieces and constructed argument, ideally a mix of things you expect to agree with and things you expect not to. The important ingredient is not to dismiss reports, opinions and arguments out of hand simply because they suggest something different from your existing opinion or belief. The first requirement of that is for opposing views to reach you in the first place, the second is to give such views a chance and only dismissing them as lies, biased, irrelevant or stupid if you feel you have have rational justification for doing so.

mbh 12 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

I don't know. I am not sure she has one, but that does not stop me from being worried. She posts Instagrammy type stuff all the time, says she's fine, and so on, says it's only three streets away, but that she can hear it, then posts pictures of crowded hellup. I mean a whole wide highway that I walked along, thinking only of the heat, now bursting with people, where when I was there only cars, buses and trams went by.

Pefa 12 Aug 2019
In reply to neilh:

Unlike in regime change Central ( NATO and allied countries) the Chinese people will be fully aware that this is another in a long line of US organised colour revolutions aimed at bringing down a country the US ruling class have targeted.

See about 60 previous US operations for details. 

8
David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

We think very differently. I do not build "opinions based on news reports, opinion pieces and constructed argument".  I extract the information from them that I believe is true and make up my own mind.  Your talk is all of choosing opinions or arguments.  So you certainly must be influenced.  Many people are not.

7
Blanche DuBois 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

> You are obsessed.

Yet you're the one that felt the need to bring it up.

David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

Bring what up ?

john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

That reads to me like you're saying the same thing in two different ways and calling one right and one wrong, but if it makes sense to you I see no point in quibbling over semantics.

neilh 12 Aug 2019
In reply to Pefa:

Interesting.

So do you think the govt should have talks with the protestors?

that is ususlly the way you resolve these without resorting to violence. 

Do you think China wants to get rid of the two systems one country agreement. 

I read that the Chinese are turning out lots of graduates and there are few well paid jobs. Is this fermenting the trouble?

Have the HKers Got plans to migrate to Taiwan ?

David Riley 12 Aug 2019
In reply to john arran:

The difference is your claim you are influenced by the opinion of others.

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john arran 12 Aug 2019
In reply to David Riley:

Feel free to selectively interpret and twist at will. I've explained my point several times and I'm confident that any reader who gives a shjt will know exactly what I meant, rather than whatever it is that you may be trying to pretend I meant..


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