UKH

/ History repeating itself?

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018

I am seeing parrallels between Britain's current state and Germany in the 1930's.

16
GridNorth - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Do you mean Germany flexing it's muscles and a rise in antisemitism?

2
Pedro50 on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Because the EU "will squeeze us till the pips squeak."

And we are in the process of building two giant battleships 

Post edited at 13:43
3
JMarkW - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

you may see them but that does't mean they exist.

 

Timmd on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I think there's a lot of differences too. The quiet rise of the far right isn't something to be chilled about though. 

Post edited at 14:02
robert-hutton on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Your profile interests states you like: " starting intractable arguments" is this your daily fix.

Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to GridNorth:

No The break down in government that led to a minority group gaining popular support and government

1
Timmd on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to robert-hutton:

> Your profile interests states you like: " starting intractable arguments" is this your daily fix.

Life is an intractable argument. ;-)

Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to JMarkW:

A breakdown in democracy caused by the inability of the main parties to solve a crisis and the rise of a minor party. Also a rise in right wing thinking with the scapegoating of minority groups.

1
Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to robert-hutton:

I wish. I'm on a diet

snoop6060 - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

If you are seeing Nazi shit then perhaps acid is not for you. It's supposed to be fun. 

5
Bob Kemp - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I can see some broad parallels - a global depression, austerity, the rise of far-right parties in Europe - but there are many differences. Five years or so after the 1929 crash the first concentration camps were built, the Gestapo were in operation, the Hitler Youth had been around for over ten years. Things aren't that bad yet. Always worth being alert though - 'The price of freedom is eternal vigilance' etc....

Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to snoop6060:

Spoken like a true ostrich

4
Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Bob Kemp:

This is pretty much my point. Things will never be exactly the same. It would be like saying in 1930 that there wouldn't be a second war because of the the treaty of Vesailles, and because no body was going to get assasinated. It is the similarity of conditions leading to potential unrest that interest me. I doubt it will lead to the rise of a new Nazi party but it could lead into something unpleasent and chances are we won't recognise it till it arrives.

2
wercat on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

fortunately we don't have a problem with the militarism of the immediate postwar period that led to the emergence during the 1920s of what would later be called the doctrine of Blitzkrieg, something that was embodied in army tactics and manouevres from that time onward through the 1920s and of which the Nazis took full advantage in the 1930s

Other than that there are a lot of parallels

Lots of people who feel defeated and cheated by the people in charge

Someone to pin the blame on an invented "Enemy of the People" and Socialist in the sense of being of the people and for the people in the Struggle against that Enemy

Also being Nationalist/Patriotic as well as Socialist as it is Britain First and that destiny must come before relationships with other states.

Appealing to all Classes with this Message, in the modern way using Social Media

Judges upholding the Constitution seen as Enemies of the People

Anyone standing in the Way of the Socialist Patriotic cause being against the Democratic Will of the People

The idea that there Was One Will which is Sacred when expressed and from which destiny there IS NO TURNING BACK!

I Quote “Think Thousand times before taking a decision But - After taking decision never turn back even if you get Thousand difficulties!!”  Messieurs Dixon, Yates,  you know who said that.

 

And I think the concept of the big lie to subvert democracy is still here

"the principle—which is quite true within itself—that in the big lie there is always a certain force of credibility; because the broad masses of a nation are always more easily corrupted in the deeper strata of their emotional nature than consciously or voluntarily; and thus in the primitive simplicity of their minds they more readily fall victims to the big lie than the small lie, since they themselves often tell small lies in little matters but would be ashamed to resort to large-scale falsehoods.

It would never come into their heads to fabricate colossal untruths, and they would not believe that others could have the impudence to distort the truth so infamously."

Post edited at 16:24
1
Rob Parsons on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to wercat:

Godwin's Law. Congratulations - we got there in the end.

(By the way, what's the exact source of the Hitler quote? I mean, I can see it all over the Internet, but when and where exactly is he supposed to have said/written it? Thanks.)

7
snoop6060 - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> Spoken like a true ostrich

I'm curious to what this actually means? 

Edit: Google to the rescue. Yes that's me.

Post edited at 16:29
wercat on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

I'd have to research that but it was told us by our history teacher in the early 1970s which is why I looked for it as well as the big lie quote.

The story of how the doctrine of Blitzkrieg was developed before Nazi rule is documented in "The Path to Blitzkrieg: Doctrine & Training in the German Army, 1920-39" Ticino , rather heavy going at times

Post edited at 16:34
Cú Chullain - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - MASS HYSTERIA!

Rob Parsons on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to wercat:

> I'd have to research that but it was told us by our history teacher in the early 1970s which is why I looked for it as well as the big lie quote.

I ask, because I am always suspicious of the attribution of quotes that become 'common knowledge' on the Internet. In addition, a very similar quote seems to get attributed to Jinnah.

In any event, thinking a thousand times before making a decision, and then implementing the decision despite a thousand difficulties, sounds like generally good advice to me.

 

 

Wanderer100 - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Timmd:

> I think there's a lot of differences too. The quiet rise of the far right isn't something to be chilled about though. 

The quiet rise of the far right is not limited to the shores of this island. It's spreading right across Europe and at a much faster pace than people care to admit.  Look no further than Hungary and Poland for examples of this and to a lesser degree Italy, Austria and even Germany.

profitofdoom on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I am seeing parrallels between Britain's current state and Germany in the 1930's.

OK. I'm seeing lots of things that aren't parallel

Timmd on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Godwin's Law. Congratulations - we got there in the end.

> (By the way, what's the exact source of the Hitler quote? I mean, I can see it all over the Internet, but when and where exactly is he supposed to have said/written it? Thanks.)

Godwin's law is a stupid thing, I think , because somebody might actually have a decent point, and then somebody pops up with Godwin's law and tries to undermine what they're saying with it, rather than arguing the broader point and exploring it.

This is my long held feeling on it btw, rather than being specifically about your post. I do think it's a daft thing though. 

Edit: Thinking of another thread, if I was dictator I might ban it's use. ;-)

Post edited at 17:14
wercat on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Indeed, you are right - the misspelling seems to have been cut and pasted many many times.   That exact quote must therefore be regarded with suspicion though I can only say that I was searching for something I recalled from many years ago.  IIRC it was to do with his principles of leadership and exemplified by his decisions never to give ground in defence no matter the cost.  The teacher in question was called Peter Colville and the key  book we were advised to read up on was "Hitler, a Study in Tyranny", though I remember reading much more widely (e.g. Chester Wilmot etc).  Must have been pre O level as I didn't do history and the A level syllabus was the inevitable Tudors and Stuarts, yet again

Post edited at 17:15
wercat on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

btw Godwin was present at the inception of the thread don't you think?

Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Cú Chullain:

> Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together - MASS HYSTERIA!


Ladies and gentlemen you heard it here first

summo on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

You mean Corbyn... racist, dislikes jews and now sexist... he is  working towards a full house. Thankfully not in power. 

5
Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to summo:

not specifically. But suspect you are being Mailwashed*

*A common affliction where people believe the shit posted in the Daily Mail

4
Duncan Bourne - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Oooo two mailwashed dislikers ;-)

Bob Kemp - on 19 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

>  I doubt it will lead to the rise of a new Nazi party but it could lead into something unpleasent and chances are we won't recognise it till it arrives.

I think social media and the new alternative news sites make this more likely. We are still only beginning to understand the ways in which they can influence the political process. 

Post edited at 21:22
DubyaJamesDubya - on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Godwin's Law. Congratulations - we got there in the end.

Can't see how this can apply to a thread about the rise of Nazism in Germany???

It's a pretty feeble (I'm such a know it all) way of dismissing arguments that are pretty valid too.

Post edited at 10:15
Rob Parsons on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya:

> Can't see how this can apply to a thread about the rise of Nazism in Germany???

> It's a pretty feeble (I'm such a know it all) way of dismissing arguments that are pretty valid too.

My use of the phrase was in no way an attempt to dismiss any arguments being made. If anything, it was a weak joke which would probably have been better left unmade.

However, since you reraise all this: the quotes attributed to Hitler, and mentioned here by Wercat, seem particularly inapt in the current context to me:

  1. The 'thinking a thousand times ...' one actually sounds like good general advice to me. And - some might argue - it's exactly what was not done before the referendum.
  2. The 'big lie' one was a suggestion from Hitler that big lies were in use against his cause - specifically, by Jewish Marxists. That is: he was specifically not advocating or justifying their use.

Thus, in the present context, we might find ourselves actually agreeing with Hitler  (I don't know whose law that is ...) -  which is never a particularly pleasant place to be.

 

Post edited at 10:43
wercat on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

He understood so well this idea of the big lie that he adopted it wholesale, so you have to look at the whole historical context of what he said.     Someone who explains that guns are in use against him and then uses guns to massacre people is not the person we are agreeing with when we say we don't like firearms.

I agreed with your point about the never turn back quote being suspect in its origin but your last post is quite fallacious, perhaps even a conceit, in a literary sense

Post edited at 10:46
wercat on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Further, I qualified my initial post about political parallels with a denial that we had the same underlying militarism and therefore it was more nuanced than you admit

Rob Parsons on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to wercat:

> He understood so well this idea of the big lie that he adopted it wholesale, so you have to look at the whole historical context of what he said.  

Before this gets ridiculous, let me be very clear that I am in no way defending Hitler.

However, the 'big lie' quote (I looked it up last night after our previous discussions here) is from 'Mein Kampf', written in 1925, in which he presents his ideological and political analysis at the time, and in which he considers the effect of what he considers 'big lies' told against his cause by those whom he considers to be his opponents. Did he and Goebbels subsequently use the same tools? Unquestionably.

> ... your last post is quite fallacious, perhaps even a conceit, in a literary sense

It wasn't meant to be. However I will accept your insult, and now leave this thread before it gets any uglier.

Post edited at 10:56
wercat on 20 Dec 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

It was not meant to be anything more than a gentle rebuff, not an insult, calculated to be at a similar level to you pointing Godwin out to me alone when the whole thread was prefaced by a comment about "Germany in the 1930s".

Ben Sharp - on 21 Dec 2018
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

I've been listenening and reading to a bit recently about germany and italy in the 1920's and 30's and there are countless parallels. I think the most worrying thing is that no one really bats an eye lid until it's too late, who cared when the russians inteferred in US elections, what happened when they assasinated someone on our soil (again), what happened when they annexed crimea, what happened when May's snoopers charter was judged illegal internationally, how many people give a damn about the iminent tearing up of the nuclear weapons treaty between us and russia, election campaigns being investigated for corruption is now common place - does anyone mind, what was the result of trumps blatent "wouldn't" vs "would" lie, is anyone stopping newspapers from blatent propaganda, what changed after Grenfel, whose making a big deal out of a renewed nuclear arms race, what happened after windrush, what happened after 8 years of internationally condemned austerity and crushing poverty. Nothing, when there is no redress and no consequences for international and governmental crimes, when the big powers are flexing their muscles and building up their military, when right wing nationalism is on the rise and you top it off with massive wealth inequality, global poverty and the wholesale acceptance of fake news propaganda as just the way it is you can see problems on the horizon. The parallels aren't exact but we certainly live in turbulant times, populism, propaganda, unstable leadership, public discontent and poverty it's all there we just need a catalyst.

I think as a society we've lost our way and we're too ready to accept things as they are and believe what we're told, at work I don't hear people complaining about wealth inequality, I don't hear them complaining about austerity or it's wholesale condemnation as a catastrophy, I don't hear people complaining that the cabinet are  mostly (all?) multi-millionaires, I don't hear them complaining about food banks or about child poverty, I don't hear them complaining about mass surveilance and I don't hear them complaining about tax evasion and the huge sums of money that businesses, wealthy individuals and large portions of our elected representatives hold in off shore accounts. They complain about benefits cheats, disabled people scrounging off the state and immigrants taking over. What the fuck has happened to the working class?

Post edited at 08:10
1

This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.