UKH

It seems likely that around a third of the electorate will this week vote to put Corbyn into power. I wonder how many of them really understand what sort of a person they are actually voting for.

Just so nobody can say they didn't realise, here's a mere sample of how he's spent the last forty or so years in politics.

On Britain

The former head of MI6 said Corbyn would pose a threat to national security if Prime Minister, Corbyn would never have been given security clearance to work for the UK’s national security agencies.

After the Novichok poisonings in Salisbury, Corbyn cast doubt over Russian involvement in the incident.

Corbyn’s opposition to nuclear weapons and his support for Putin’s Russia is completely at odds with every other postwar Labour leader

Corbyn who has never backed any military action has said of NATO:

"I am no fan of NATO. Indeed, I wish it didn’t exist.”

“I am no fan of Western military alliances. Indeed, I wish they didn’t exist.”

“We in the radical end, the left, of the unions and the Labour Party, have got to be realistic that NATO is a major problem and a major difficulty, and we have to campaign against NATO’s power, its influence and its global reach, because it is a danger to world peace and a danger to world security.” And it had been founded “in order to promote a cold war with the Soviet Union”

Corbyn was granted access by communist East Germany to go behind the Iron Curtain in the 1970s

In 2014 Corbyn spoke at an event at the London Islamic centre to mark the twenty fifth anniversary of the Iranian Revolution where he praised Iran’s “Tolerance and acceptance of other faiths, traditions and ethnic groupings in Iran.” (The Cato Institute's Human Freedom Index ranked Iran at 153 out of 162 countries in 2018.)

Corbyn accepted up to £5,000 for appearances on the Iranian state broadcast network - Press TV, after the channel was banned in the UK for its part in filming the detention and torture of an Iranian journalist.

President Maduro has described Corbyn as a “friend of Venezuela”. Corbyn has openly praised Venezuela’s socialist policies and he has been a constant supporter of Maduro and his predecessor Chavez but Venezuela's economy is collapsing and inflation has reached over 1 million percent, civil unrest has gripped the nation, three million people have fled the country.

On Antisemitism

In 2013 Corbyn said “Zionists...don’t understand English irony despite having lived in the country for a long time”.

He wrote the foreword praising a book which argued that banks and the press were controlled by Jews.

In 2012 Corbyn defended an anti-Semitic mural in Tower Hamlets which depicted “hook-nosed bankers” playing Monopoly on a board held up by the working classes.

He attended several events hosted by a group, Deir Yassin Remembered, led by Paul Eisen a prominent Holocaust denier.

He attended an event on Holocaust Memorial Day in 2010 entitled “Aushwitz to Gaza: Never Again for Anyone”, in which Israel was compared to the Nazis.

Corbyn attended a wreath-laying ceremony for Palestinian terrorists who murdered 11 Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics.

The Jewish Labour Movement says, “he has made the party a welcoming refuge for anti-Semites."

Forty-seven per cent of Jews say they would consider leaving the country if Corbyn gets into power

On terrorism

MI5, opened a file on Corbyn because of his close links to the IRA.

In October 1984, two weeks after an IRA bomb killed five at the Tory Party conference in Brighton, Corbyn invited convicted IRA volunteers Linda Quigley and Gerry MacLochlainn to the House of Commons.

In 1986, Corbyn was arrested protesting against the trial of IRA members including Patrick Magee, who was convicted of the Brighton hotel bombing and other attacks.

When repeatedly asked if he condemned IRA violence in a BBC Radio interview in 2015, he could only answer by saying “I condemn all bombing” and “I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides.”

He has described terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as "friends".

Corbyn supported the campaign to overturn the convictions of Jawad Botmeh and Samar Alami for the 1994 bombing of the Israeli Embassy in London (convictions upheld by the High Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights).

On leadership

Corbyn lost a vote of confidence by Labour Party MPs by 172–40. None of the reasons that the 172 cited then have changed in the time since and some of the objections to the Labour leader have become more compelling.

He was the most rebellious Labour MP in their Parliaments from 1997–2010 , defying the whip 428 times. Nobody owes him any debt of loyalty if he's ever PM.

A stream of Labour moderates have defected to other parties or are retreating from the fray, including deputy leader Tom Watson.

Retiring MPs Ian Austin, John Woodcock, Tom Harris and Michael McCann blamed the Labour leader for a “culture of extremism, anti-Semitism and intolerance”, saying Mr Corbyn was a man “who supported terrorism, supported extremism and backs our country’s enemies” and described the Labour leader as “a menace”, as well as “a disgrace to his party and a disgrace to this country”

In summary

Labour is in the grip of hardline, quasi-Marxist, anti-Semitic personality cult. And the ridiculous thing is off the record most Labour MPs agree with all of this but have failed to do anything about it.

Never in our history has anyone so grossly unfit to govern come so dangerously close to holding the highest office in the land. When you put your cross in the box for the red team this week you will be responsible for unleashing this lunatic upon the country.

Most of them will be voting to stop Johnson getting into power.

That's a big statement.  I imagine there's been a fair few really sh*tty PMs in the past.  However, there is no need to look further than our current PM to find a counterexample.

No.  Unless the polls are crazy Corbyn has no chance of a majority government.  If he gets in he will have his hands tied by a coalition partner.  He won't be unleashed.   

Johnson on the other hand could potentially be unleashed to wreak complete havoc, starting with no deal Brexit, follwed by a trade deal with the US which eventually results in destroying the NHS and reckless spending on complete bullsh*t while the economy tanks due to Brexit.

... would you care to share your "alternative" ?

And he smells less like shit than the other fella. 

Yeah, but on the other hand it's also choice of either

a) someone who appears to want to make life better for the vast majority of people through creating a more equal society; or

b) someone who's a pathological liar who doesn't give a shit about anything except himself.

When you see it that way, Corbyn - while far from ideal - looks a bit more appealing. The vision of the country after a hard brexit, deregulation, the disintegration of public services after it turns out the promises of investment were all lies (chiefly because the economy no longer functions after no-deal), is absolutely horrifying if you don't see yourself as part of the minority that will do OK out of a hard-right Tory government. 

You're not going to change anyone's mind. To make a reasonable effort, you'd have to give good reasons we're wrong about Johnson (and of course we're* not, we're absolutely right). 

*I say "we" but I'm not voting Labour and never have. I think Corbyn's absolutely dreadful although I agree with a lot of his policies. But I would vote Labour without a second's thought to get rid of a Tory.

The more nuanced decision a lot of people face is whether to invest their vote building support for a party they actually like (but can’t win) or whether or gamble it on Labour in the hope of displacing a Tory. 

If it was a sure fire thing it’d be a different decision. The risk is that you sacrifice your vote on Labour but then find that not enough other people did the same and you’ve just wasted your vote and actively harmed your preferred candidate.

I've got to say as well, that I don't think your reasons that I should be terrified of Corbyn are particularly worrying. They're just little factoids presented with political spin, they're not good reasons to believe that anything bad will happen under a Labour government. We live in a sophisticated democracy, the structures of international governance and national security don't just fall over because the PM once said someone dodgy was a "friend".

Do you think it's worth noting that your very best effort to try to persuade people makes no mentions of his policies, and is instead largely a guilt-by-association personal attack? It's really shallow, flimsy, insubstantial, weak, and unconvincing. But you know, it was worth a bash.

The factors are different in every constituency. If you vote for your preferred party and allow in your least preferred when you could have done otherwise, you just shot yourself in the foot.

In my case, it's a total no-brainer. I would vote Lib Dem or Green, and my constituency is *very* marginal LD/Tory. So very important I cast my vote, because I hate the f*cking Tories.

Also, as the OP said, Corbyn still has a large number of Labour MPs who are more than willing to rebel, so has no effective free hand. Johnson has shown himself to be ruthless by purging the party of large numbers of moderate mps. There are few rebels left. 

Ditto for my constituency. Rather than voting for the party I favour, I'll likely feel obliged to vote tactically to keep the Tories out.

Moderates? Rebels? 

 4 of the longest-serving Thatcher era conservatives are advising people NOT to vote Tory. 

Labour for 4 years or Brexit for ever! Labour may in your area may be the best of two terrible options.

The liberals don't have a hope locally and I think the conservatives are now pursuing a political plan for brexit in such a mendacious manner that means we really don't know what they will do. 

I saw moderate as a compliment - Clarke, Greening, Stewart, Rudd, Morgan, Soames, Hammond, Lidington, Jo Johnson etc - basically the whole centre right. 

By rebel I meant MPs willing to vote against their own cabinet’s worst excesses. I see plenty in the Labour ranks but very few amongst Tory candidates.  

I'm not a Corbyn fan.   But if the alternative is the Picaninnie calling, bottom patting, bumboy hating, serial lying Boris the overgrown teenage public school boy then there is no real alternative.  

I like the NHS.  I support the fire service.  I don't believe Brexit is a good idea.  Swinson has voted in ways that I can't agree with.  I don't live in Scotland.  

The Labour candidate for my constituency appears sensible.  I don't see an alternative.  

pec ... it's been an hour ... perhaps you are having issue with the words "care" and "share" so, to put it more succinctly, what's your alternative?

Can you turn round please, I think I see a copy of the Daily Mail sticking out of your arse.

He's significantly more fit to govern than the current incumbent. Not sure I have the time to list all the reasons why.......

 Never in our history has anyone so grossly unfit to govern come so dangerously close to holding the highest office in the land. 

Have you clocked our current PM? And his advisors. And his cabinet. And his donors.

I couldn’t agree more. 
Corbyn...a weak, vapid little pipsqueak lacking in the moral fibre for leadership. After Thursday, he’ll melt into a greasy puddle and slide out of sight, down a drain. With the toilet paper and the pubic hair.

As opposed to the exemplar of morality that is Johnson?

You can start your own thread about Johnson

I'd just feel sullied and degraded by association.

You need to man up. 

UKC’s former comedy act gone bad.

Best of luck with your new persona.

Are you not more concerned about the Conservative party accepting donations from Russians with links to Putin?

Vote Corbyn to get rid of Putin's poodle.

It’s just a matter of opinion Pasbury. And the freedom to express it. I don’t need luck

Opinions are like arseholes....

And every arsehole has one.

The old ones are always the best. 
Anyway, I’m off to bed now. I’ll tot up my dislikes when I get up.

Both leaders are bad news. I'll be holding my nose voting tactically for a hung parliament - stagnation might actually preferable to what either of these extremists have in mind. Play the long game.

Me too, suffering badly from Pre Monday Tension.

I can tell that, from your eagerness to insult. Breathe into a paper bag for a while

There is nothing anyone has said above which is in any way surprising, coming as it does from all the usual suspects. I also note that nobody is denying anything on the charge sheet against Corbyn, so much like Corbyn himself, there is clearly nothing you will not ignore no matter how vile, in pursuit of your political goals.

Vote as you like on Thursday, but if you put your cross in the red box because that is what you judge to be the lesser of two evils, you will bear responsibility for what ensues if a Britain hating, terrorist sympathising, antisemitic Marxist becomes PM. Just don't pretend you didn't know.

I didn’t insult. But thanks for the advice anyway.

Of all the things I’ll be thinking about when I vote on Thursday your pathetic attempt at character assassination and guilt by association will not be anywhere amongst them.

Best of luck!

Well, you did call him an arsehole and that is quite insulting...

Four words pal, you're a Tory dickhead!

What a classy reply. Too many sherries?

Or the blue box for a hard brexit pursuing, NHS depleting, gaggle of sycophants. From a personal perspective, things really can't get any worse. Your hatred of the jam making allotment dwelling bearded one is endearing in a way (although his absence of any kind of personality is unsettling).

Oh I'm balls deep in class baby.

The utter contempt the current Conservatives have for the general population of Britain, I'm all set to shovel it back in their snouts.

Liars, just bare faced liars the lot of them.

I don’t agree Jon, but well done for being the only one to actually put forward any kind of refutation of the OP and backed Jezza instead of merely saying the other guy is worse.

Still, here’s hoping the atmosphere will be funereal in here next weekend.

https://thebristolcable.org/2019/12/general-election-2019-labour-antisemiti...

A Jewish colleague of mine published this article about why she's campaigning for Labour. It's balanced, insightful and personal.

I chatted with her in depth about it and we agreed that the Labour leadership have created a right mess and Corbyn is personally compromised, but at the same time there is also a lot of evidence of him reaching out to Jewish communities and opposing antisemitism. In her own words to me, Corbyn could be both simultaneously antisemitic and a "champion of the Jews".

LOL, well done for being the second person - must have been seconds after my post.

I personally don’t think Corbyn is antisemitic, there’s no direct evidence. He has however committed some very big howlers over the issue. My issues are more with his economics and that truly awful Race & Equality Manifesto - truly Orwellian.

That's a good reply. Quite camp, but furious at the same time.

Except Corbyn's economics and politics don't stand a chance of being enacted as its a vanishingly small chance he will win a majority and even then, as others have pointed out, Labour rebels would likely force a little moderation on the manifesto pledges (especially if the money starts to run out and things like debt ratings start to shift unhealthily). That's the problem in your argument even assuming both are as bad. Boris has a serious chance of winning so any moderates with any sense will be looking to block a Boris win. If you believe in a Boris's brexit then he is someone to vote for, but I feel for you (as it won't end well). Also a hard brexit, if Boris's fantasy negotiation plan hits reality,  is being predicted by economists to be about as costly as a Corbyn win with the manifesto implemented with none of the concrete asset gains we get from that Labour plan... just tory burnt money.

Boris has perpetrated worse direct racism and covered up much worse racism in his party. He seems to have abused the power of his office as Mayor and might be under police investigation for that after the election. He has damaged democracy with his unlawful perogation. He was caught in a telephone conversation about getting a journalist beaten up. His bumbling at the Foreign office has led to a lengthy incarceration of  UK citizen instead of an early release. He has repeatedly broken Parliamentary financial rules. Failed to turn up several times to select commitees for their normal democratic accountability. Ran away from Andrew Neil. Wasted money as Mayor on his bridge and water cannon. Lied and lied and lied and been a complete hypocrite on his pet 'poor baiting' of single mothers, given his unknown number of kids. These are real issues in positions of real power not the student politics fumblings of the most rebellious Labour backbencher ever, being exaggerated to ludicrously predict his potential actions of at best a leader of a minority government. I'm hardly biased since I think Corbyn has been a disaster for Labour and the parties failures on antisemitism under his leadership are disgusting for a progressive party.

Here is his reference from Max, Boris' s old Telegraph boss:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/jun/24/boris-johnson-prime-m...

“I condemn all bombing” 

What a monster!

Someone's got a lot of time on their hands!

Please could you do the comparable Johnson one? Just for balance you understand.

Thanks, BB.

I haven't bothered going through your post line by line and fact checking it all.  

I imagine a large proportion of it is propaganda and twisted versions of events from the multi billionaire media types who don't want to pay their fair share of taxes.  

At this point I pretty much assume that most of what is being said is lies. It seems to be the way things are in politics these days.  

“these days”?

Always has been, always will be. From all sides. It’s a popularity contest. If you want to change that then change the system. If you want it to remain democratic (without the lies) then sortition is your best hope.

Given what’s currently happening I’m not sure it’s that sophisticated, or that the bulk of our democracy can do much to restrain a few bad people at the top...

Well said, something we can agree on! 

I haven't actually seen it, it's the kind of thing I might agree with or disagree with depending on the details of what it actually says. I'll check it out when I've got a sec, but since I'm not voting Labour... 

You can't really believe this shite, surely?

What kind of self-deception does it take to vote for a liar and a cheat, over someone with integrity.

I wonder what the response would be from people who will vote for a serial and blatant liar and cheat, were he then to gain a majority and it soon inevitably transpire that much of his manifesto and campaign promises were lies and such people were to have been cheated?

I suspect, human nature being what it is, that even then they would find a way to convince themselves that that hadn't made a monumental misjudgement to the detriment of virtually the whole country.

And that’s just on this thread!

Folk are getting tense. It must be the polls.

Without all the gratuitous imagery, that’s what I’m counting on.  That’s what encouraged me to vote Labour.

This Brexit thing just got even more dangerous.  Trump is blocking appointments to the WTO panel which adjudicates trade disputes, in a few months it won't have enough judges and won't be able to appoint more.   The Brexiteer's 'we will use WTO rules' argument was always sh*t but it's about to get even less defensible.  It's going to be a chaotic free for all until Trump gets booted out, not a good place when you have just chucked away all your existing deals by leaving the EU.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/politics/donald-trump-wto-rules-in...

I'd say it's been quite restraining for the last 3 years... 

It wasn't meant to be surprising, it was meant to be true. And it is. 

Your factoids don't show that corbyn hates Britain, nor that he is antisemitic, nor that he supports terrorism. Your evidence does not support your conclusions. Your argument is a pile of sweaty bollocks. 

If the political goal is to make society better for everyone, then it is absolutely reasonable and correct to ignore personal factors (especially when they're not supported by evidence).

What have the Polish got to do with it, and isn't that a little racist?

Only just caught this thread. I call CCHQ troll. Tired old repetition of the usual lies, half truths and distortions. 
On just the one point: Corbyn’s history of contrarianism actually plays quite well in the context of the litany of foreign military misadventures successive governments (of both hues ) have taken us into without an exit plan or any notion that military action might make things better. And surely no-one is in doubt that the UK’s involvement in Iraq 2 heightened the likelihood of terrorist activity here.

also, all endgames with terrorists eventually involve dialogue. How does anyone imagine such dialogue starts? Even Trump Is talking to the Taliban now apparently.

Trump seems to think this, his latest speech is a proper doozie

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-politics/trump-israel-...

It beggars belief, what has the world come to?

That's a long post to have done off the top of your head. You wouldn't have copy and pasted it from the Daily Mail by any chance?

Corbyn can't become PM.  He doesn't have sufficient support.  So there is a choice of a lying, racist, homophobic, brexit supporting, narcissistic PM leading a similar party, or a coalition with a good chance of stopping or softening Brexit.

You seem to think we live in presidential democracy, ala the USA. We don't. The choices are between a centre left party with loads of people that would rebel from the most extreme positions of the party leader and which would be unlikely to rule without a coalition anyway, and a party that has taken a shift to the populist hard right and is looking for absolute power.

I don't like Corbyn and Labour would not be my natural choice but it I had the vote I'd vote for them in these elections.

Pec , you can try all you want to convince me, and you are probably right on a few things, but individuals come and individuals go. My vote will always go to a party that believes that food banks are abhorrent rather than one that made them essential to so many just to survive.

You would have to have taken leave of your senses to vote for a sociopath like Johnson.

By the way, he has confirmed in the Times today, that Brexit is all about xenophobia!

 There is a widely held perception that corbyn is untrustworthy and while this is largely down to the media, it means he is probably unelectable. Given this, its seems like self indulgance that he hasn't handed over leadership to someone like kier starmer who might well have converted the massive open goal. 

On the other hand it is all priced in with BJ that he is a liar etc and no one really cares.At the end of the day we remain a nation of cap doffers.

Don't forget the Telegraph... pec didn't. 

"I wonder how many of them really understand what sort of a person they are actually voting for"

Not the person falsely portrayed ad nauseam in the popular media, that's for sure.

I fear either you may have been hoodwinked by what the establishment machine wants you to believe, or you are reading publications with a heavy dose of confirmation bias. Or maybe both.

A more accurate example of a nation that has truly "taken leave of its senses" would be one that would vote for a serial liar, a cheat, a misogynist, a racist, a narcissist and one who unlawfully prorogues parliament for political gain.

The motto for many in this election, including me, is "best of a bad bunch". Johnson doesn't even come close. He has a complete absence of any redeeming features.

Do you really think we haven't had more outright and obvious lies than usual? 

I know we've always had lies, but usually they were hidden.  Recently no one seems to bother trying to hide their lies.

And being caught lying had consequences. Like sacking, or resignation.

I’m not sure anything has changed in the level of lying in politics. I think the perception of it has. In the age of the internet with social media and forums, especially if it is heavily biased, any claim of untruths will be heightened, both in level and visibility. The media also sensationalises stories and gets them out on social media almost immediately. Never forget their main goal is not public service, but the chasing of clicks, views and advertising revenue.

Lying might perhaps be too strong a term. I think it is often merely dishonesty with the truth, rather than out and out fabrication, i.e. presenting things as better or worse than they actually are.

I really do think it’s time to think about a new system of governance to stop not only this bastardisation of the truth, but also to stop this sickening popularity contest (or should I say unpopularity contest?) as it seems to be. Maybe some sort of PR, but I would go for sortition to rid ourselves of these self-serving career politicians.

Can someone please explain to me why some types of criticism of religion are accepted but others are not? I honestly dont understand, doesnt freedom of speech and expression of views allow it?

The example of the monopoly game poking fun of the stereotype of Jews controlling banking. What if the art was poking fun of the christianity pedophilia stereotype? Would this be more or less acceptable?

Should all art/comedy be banned from poking fun at all groups?

Edit: I don't mean to derail the thread it just seems like a taboo subject matter and I thought it would be interesting to hear opinions on it.

So, I can't sleep and I'm bored. 

Point 1 

It seems Jeremy tried to block the promotion of the former head of MI6.  Wonder if he is a bit cross about that?  Oh and he works for The Times.  Who is his boss again?  

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/24490/promotion-of-john-scarlett

Or perhaps you mean the right wing Richard Dearlove former head of MI6 who now runs a company who did PR for Gaddafi?  

https://www.thecanary.co/uk/analysis/2018/02/26/ex-m16-boss-questions-corby...

Remind me again, which of the 2 of them were involved in Blair's dodgy Iraq dossier?  

Both of them?  

Monopoly poking fun? ? 

Start your own thread on that.  

The mural that Jeremy apparently defended and condemned.  Schrodingers Corbyn. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-43523445

Ah, not the actual board game! 

"I’m not sure anything has changed in the level of lying in politics." Said the ostrich from under the sand. The reality of Boris is making the role of satirists redundant.. you just need to report the latest news..

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/dec/09/boy-on-the-floor-photo-pro...

This site is run by Peter Oborne, a tory commentator.

https://boris-johnson-lies.com

I shall be voting Lib Dem, not because of any great affinity to Jo Swinson but mostly a pragmatic decision that my electoral ward Twickenham, is a Lib Dem stronghold and I can''t vote Tory.  Traditionally I have been one those conservatives of the centre right small 'C' variety and I am deeply uncomfortable with the way the conservative party has lurched towards the populist right. One thing the Tory party used to be good at is maintaining a broad church appeal with the loons of the ERG and 1922 committee being kept in check by old school moderates like Ken Clarke and Michael Hesaltines and latterly the Rory Stewarts and Heidi Allens of this world. Now they have been forced out the notion of One Nation Conservatism that Macmillian envisioned is long gone. I am certainly not alone in my views and we are probably the same folk who voted for Blair when he reached out for the centre ground years ago. We are not all baby eating scum and would probably be voting for a Keir Starmer led Labour if that was an option. I can't vote for Corbyn, I dont think he is a bad man, but I think he is a weak and ineffectual leader surrounded by people I would rather not be anywhere near the levers of power. Sadly, with Momentum deselecting and waging war on any labour moderates it would seem that their focus is on maintaining ideological purity within the party rather then presenting themselves as a credible government in waiting. 

We live in age of political pygmies. 

When you say this who exactly do you mean?

I'd say start at the top and work down.

I am in that boat with you 100pc. Drifting in a wilderness it seems.

The boy on the floor thing is reaching new levels this morning.  They are using sock puppet Twitter accounts to cast doubt on the story, then right wing 'journalists' like Julia Hartley Brewer are repeating the planted sock puppet stories on national radio and Tory supporters are picking up and re-tweeting.

There are some seriously evil people working for the Tories.

https://twitter.com/sturdyAlex/status/1204175955314577410

So you hate anyone that votes Tory?

Interesting, anyone else you hate, maybe gays, people of a different ethnicity and let's not forget fat people.

You seem to be confusing Stuart with Boris Johnson!

Stop being a bell-end. You asked  "...who exactly do you mean?" Start with Boris Johnson, who is spectacularly unlikable, and work your way down until you hit your own personal hateful-Tory threshold. 

Nothing to do with queer bashing, or racism or body shaming. But you knew that didn't you? Though Johnson does have some choice words about our "bum-boy" friends. Do you think it's just the tank tops he doesn't like?

For a bit of balance - Jonathan Pie gives a calm and measured analysis of a 'Decade of the Tories'....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjUWX6S8iYU&feature=emb_logo

It's to do with hate, which is what racism etc is about, and someone stating they hate any group of people is bigoted and ignorant and at the root of much of what is wrong in the world today. 

If you disagree with a view, work with all your might to persuade that person, you may even find that they even have a point.

You do realise that there is a difference between hating people for the views they have chosen to adopt and hating them for the way they are born?

My hatred for the Tory party is firmly rooted in evidence, so, you know, not ignorant. They share a very different world viewpoint so I suspect their point will be lost on me. 

all this confirms my views that twits use twitter, or is it tw*tter?

It could just easily be said,

My hatred for the Labour party is firmly rooted in evidence, so, you know, not ignorant. They share a very different world viewpoint so I suspect their point will be lost on me

You are an ignorant bigot and I claim my £10. Come back when you learn to see another perspective.

you need to f*** off.

Having lived through the Thatcher years and still seeing the effects in some of the communities I work in, my perspective is just fine thanks. 

You're a reactionary dick and I claim my £10.

Come back when you have some compassion. 

Well said.  It seems that the new C word is Centrist.  I reluctantly voted tactically for Labour rather then Lib Dem but I certainly wouldn't have done so under Corbyn under anything approaching normal circumstances. 

What do you make of Jonathon Ashworth's comments?

I think he is absolutely right to think that JC won't be popular in Mansfield.  

He said comments about the civil service and security was meant to be a pi$$ take with a Tory mate.  Seems like an excuse to me.

He doesn't like Corbyn so it's no surprise that he would go along with what's been said.  However just because he said it doesn't make it true, or for that matter false.  In other words I think his opinion is irrelevant.  The only people who get to decide who is or isn't a security risk are the current security services.  They wont be telling us their thoughts.  

Catharsis is always best

Yet here we are and it's actually pec who is working for the Russians. 

Err, the f*cking tories. 

That's the Conservative party. And I don't hate all of them, it's just an accurate summary of how I feel about the people standing in this election. I've got a real soft spot for Ken Clarke (I like to concentrate on his knowledge of jazz more than the policies he supported in the 80s), I'd love to smoke opium with Rory Stewart at an afghan wedding and so on.

As for tory voters, I have nothing (well, not much) against those like the posters on this thread who, like me, have a boner for Ken Clarke. But there are other people who vote tory who represent what I call the "thickie right". These are people who believe in the "just world" or "natural order" fallacy, and think that people who end up in poverty deserve it because they're inferior to the "hard working" rich. They also tend to be a bit racist, and are easily exploited by the current crop of tories as they've been led to believe that foreigners/the eu are the cause of the problems presented by globalised free market capitalism. I have to admit that I do hate these people a bit, but I think with good reason. 

Once again you're spot on Jon. Straight talking, right to the point. You're the UKC equivalent of a national f*cking treasure! 

Hear hear!

Not a Corbyn fan, but you have some inaccuracies in your post. It's OK, not unusual if you get you info from right wing media.

Sir Richard Dearlove also stated that the Tory Brexit deal undermined MI6's nationally independent global intelligence power. So potential serurity risks on both sides here.

He did not cast doubt, he simply wanted to verify the evidence before pointing fingers. Not very assertive, but certainly not dangerous. Under Boris we could have ended up at war with Russia - just think about that for a moment.

Many leaders oppose nukes, not a particularly radical position to hold. There no evidence that he supports Putin. Boris want a trade deal with Trump, he likes Putin, but thats OK right?

Corbyn is a pacifist, suprise, suprise he doesn't support military actions or alliances. Bear in mind WW1 kicked off big time as a result of military alliances - just sayin'.

This is a debunked smear, ze Germans confirmed. 

We all know he's done questionable things, as have most politicians. My view is he takes on difficult situations with unplesant people in an attemped effort to make things better, but just makes an arse of himself.  What about the underhanded sh!t Boris has said and done - Hillsborough victims, Brexit bus, doubles homelessness as mayor, letterboxes, watermelon smiles, LIED TO THE QUEEN FFS!

I'll try and get to the rest at some point.

For the sake of balance, there's plenty of evidence of Corbyn criticising the actions of Iran. A few examples here:

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/5652/iranian-air-raids

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/34664/student-arrests-in-iran

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/31697/execution-of-ahwazi-arabs

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/42193/television-broadcast-on-sa...

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/43351/marzieh-vafamehr-and-free-...

https://edm.parliament.uk/early-day-motion/47199/fair-trial-for-ghoncheh-gh...

There's also a grey area in between: hating a group of people because you ascribe to them certain attributes (greed, hatred of the poor, hatred of minorities, a desire to cause ill to people's health) which are at best misrepresentations and at worse outright lies, born of ignorance.

A lot of the Tory-bashers fall in to this camp, unaware they too have been stirred up by media spin and convenient narratives.

Iran. Is now a good time to mention Nazanin Zachariah-Radcliffe?

Jeremy Corbyn's fault no doubt!

You seem to fall into the camp of not reading the PM's own words.

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/boris-johnson-quotes-controversy-comments...

I by no means ascribe all these traits to all individual tory voters I - have friends who vote Tory and I think they are misguided rather than bad.  However, I do hate the Tory party and government for what it has done to this country, in particular by inflicting the tragedy of Brexit on it.

Are you getting a lot of your OP content on social media ?

What's the opposite of a beauty contest ? Because this is it. Trying to choose the least reprehensible incompetent to drag the country as low as they can.

This ^^^

Crikey - quite a sample you've got there Pec.

I'm assuming you've got an equally impressive list on the qualities, achievements and moral compass of the other leader to win my vote?

You know,

when we see twittercomms like this:

< From: @Arron_banks
To: David TC Davies (@DavidTCDavies)
"Hope you are admiring our handiwork on Soubry and woolaston , both jumped before they were deselected - we have recruited around 30,000 new members into the party in the last 12 months!More deselections to come and more local pressure. I enjoyed your comments today ! All the best Arron">>

You can see how your Story Party has been changed and democracy subverted.

It's not hard to find, out there on the net

Feind Hoert Mit - Infokrieg against Demokrasie!

there's a whole arkiv of Arron's doings on tw@tter

Er

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jul/12/mom...

or

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/07/fou...

’Four of the first five Labour MPs to face deselection...’

If you are going to try and play the two party tit for tat game atleast pick something where your ‘team’ weren’t at it first and to a greater extent!

Too late Boris is in

what is my team, exactly? Anyone against the Hard Stories?

I'd class Ted Heath, Paddy Ashdown, Dominic Grieve, latterly Rory Stewart and even Sturgeon, Tim Farron, Keir Starmer as "on my team" among many many others.

Where is their subversion?

Sorry, I thought you were a (current era) Labour cheerleader but I think I’ve mixed you up with someone else. Oops.

It would be interesting to know if it was even possible to dig up a list of grievances against the people on your list (or even Swinson) similar to the ones against Corbyn and Boris on recent threads. It’s like both parties have actively picked the worst possible people for their leadership jobs. 

that's exactly how it feels

On Britain

So the opinion of one person is fact? It doesn’t count for much in my view. They said the same about Harold Wilson.

Which it is sensible to do unless you want to go all gung ho

I don’t think he really supports Putin’s Russia, Your thinking of Donald Trump.

You he doesn’t like war and your quotes sound like reasonable criticism to me

 >Corbyn was granted access by communist East Germany to go behind the Iron Curtain in the 1970s<

Again so what? Nixon went to China

Corbyn accepted up to £5,000 for appearances on the Iranian state broadcast network - Press TV, after the channel was banned in the UK for its part in filming the detention and torture of an Iranian journalist.<

I’ll give you those two

Hardly Corbyn’s fault

On Antisemitism

Yes he did I’ll grant you and it was a stupid thing to say.

Fake news?

False. He was photographed standing by it and later said he would not have done so had he noticed.

Evidence?

So do you agree with the bombing of Palastine then?

Yes he did

Correct but that is down to his handling of the accusations rather than any inherent anti-semitism

I have also heard that well over half of Jews support Corbyn and don’t believe him to be anti-jewish

On terrorism

Yawn

In 1986, Corbyn was arrested protesting against the trial of IRA members including Patrick Magee, who was convicted of the Brighton hotel bombing and other attacks.

When repeatedly asked if he condemned IRA violence in a BBC Radio interview in 2015, he could only answer by saying “I condemn all bombing” and “I condemn what was done by the British Army as well as the other sides.”

He has described terrorist organisations such as Hamas and Hezbollah as "friends".

Corbyn supported the campaign to overturn the convictions of Jawad Botmeh and Samar Alami for the 1994 bombing of the Israeli Embassy in London (convictions upheld by the High Court of Justice and the European Court of Human Rights).<

Essentially all this boils down to is Corby is out to build bridges not walls like some politicians

On leadership

Really then how did he win the leadership battle not once but twice?

Good for him. If he stands up for what he believes in

So like those that have left the Conservative party then such as Amber Rudd and the rest?

It is no secret that politicians indulge in in fighting

In summary

You are talking bollocks and fail to notice that we are already in the grip of an attention seeking buffoon who can’t carry a bill through parliament and infact seems to have no idea how parliament works.

Corbyn is far from perfect in my view but Goddamn it I prefer him to Boris any day of the week

As for the country taking leave of it senses. That happened the moment we had the Brexit vote

Good response, but I'd rather people not continue to refer to Johnson as a "buffoon". That part of his public persona seems very much to be a calculated and self-serving act, presumably to head off potential criticism that he's aloof or the product of a privileged education and passage through the political ranks. It's also pretty effective in providing him a way to squirm his way out of awkward incidents or questions simply by continuing the court jester act. Unfortunately, for too many people, it seems to work.

Understandable.  Though I find it hard to hate a party who, detecting that the majority may be in favour of something, then give the population the opportunity to officially register that view.  It's a bit like hating a political party for winning an election.  We accept opposition viewpoints winning but don't seem to be willing to accept that Brexit won the referendum.

I'm perfectly happy to accept that 3 years ago 52% of the voting population thought it would be a good idea, and I'm curious as to what they may think now.

from Douglas Adams:

“It comes from a very ancient democracy, you see..."
"You mean, it comes from a world of lizards?"
"No," said Ford, who by this time was a little more rational and coherent than he had been, having finally had the coffee forced down him, "nothing so simple. Nothing anything like so straightforward. On its world, the people are people. The leaders are lizards. The people hate the lizards and the lizards rule the people."
"Odd," said Arthur, "I thought you said it was a democracy."
"I did," said Ford. "It is."
"So," said Arthur, hoping he wasn't sounding ridiculously obtuse, "why don't people get rid of the lizards?"
"It honestly doesn't occur to them," said Ford. "They've all got the vote, so they all pretty much assume that the government they've voted in more or less approximates to the government they want."
"You mean they actually vote for the lizards?"
"Oh yes," said Ford with a shrug, "of course."
"But," said Arthur, going for the big one again, "why?"
"Because if they didn't vote for a lizard," said Ford, "the wrong lizard might get in. Got any gin?"

Well, to torture this particular metaphor, you can't build a bridge from only one side. This argument would be fine if Corbyn had a history of having meetings with both sides of the debate, but he doesn't. He only appears to have had meetings with the most extreme figures, and not even, for example, any left-wing Israeli groups who support a two-state solution.

I don't believe Corbyn thinks he is anti-semitic, but he surely has to have an inkling by now that it definitely looks that way.

I am curious too. But I think we *need* to check what "the will of the people" is NOW. Over three years of Brexit bullshot has changed many peoples' minds.

ps. It's going to be interesting to see just how much tactical voting there is tomorrow.

Two words that make Corbyn look electable,,,

Boris Johnson

my heart groans for the Libdems, even with their impractical choice of campaign, as my head tells me they must be sacrificed

Joris Nobsohn