UKH

This is a question I wanted to ask everyone who doesn't need to wear one because of their job (thanks to you all). Its not that their opinions and views are not welcome I'm just more interested in the way those of us not on the frontline are changing our behaviour.

Here in Germany it is being touted (as compulsory) as an exit strategy.

I have twice in the supermarket and my own reflections are;

1.  First time it felt weird, very uncomfortable and very few people wearing them
2.  Almost over night it shifted and I was seeing more and more people wearing them the second time I was still not in the majority and couldn't wait to get the thing off. It changes shopping for food from something I used to quite enjoy to something I hate and can't wait to get over.

More generally, it seems the value is gradually becoming accepted. Personally, it feels like a way you can do something in a situation where you are mostly powerless and it shows people doing an important job on low wages that their health is something I value.

It used to seem like something quirky that Asian people did but 'we' didn't (incidentally we only had the masks because the in-laws lived in Asia for a while) but I suspect that such thinking belongs to the pre-CORVID age. 

In reply to DD72:

I've been here in South Korea for a month now and wear one all the time when I'm outside the flat - because everyone else does: if you don't wear one, you really stand out obviously and people look a bit askance at you, probably because the SK government recommends that everyone wear one outside all the time. And I'm outside nearly all the time, on long and short trips by car, because nearly everyone is out here though only walking in the street / lakes / mountains and keeping more than 2 metres from anyone - large gatherings e.g. church services, cinemas are banned and all schools and universities are closed. No lockdown, though some people are working from home. PS I am following SK government guidelines and rules

You soon get used to a mask, though breathing isn't the same of course. Still, you can walk quite fast

The paper ones are rubbish because they very soon get damp, and can only be used once. We have cloth ones which can be thoroughly washed then dried overnight

In reply to DD72:

I agree it feels kind of Sci fi especially if like me you combine the mask with wrap around goggles. I was the only one wearing a mask in a very long - 2m apart- queue waiting to get into a supermarket last week and it felt very strange but I'm sure it will become much more common, although from what I continue to see from my window that isn't the case as no one wears a mask and they are all out on a narrow cycle path I overlook enjoying the sun and jogging, cycling walking passed each other in all directions all the time. Personally I think mask wearing should be compulsory but that can only happen if people have access to masks which is why I will be calling for a general election when it is safe again as it is the governments responsibility to protect its people and they are guilty of gross negligence. But that is for another time. 

In reply to DD72:

I've not. Surely you must have to carry multiples to get through a shopping trip? They are no longer effective when wet through, and I would guess I would wet through one at least walking to the shops, then the faff of shopping and walking home. How do you correctly carry them home for disposal? And if it is a fabric one then I would guess you wet through it even sooner?

There was a guy in the shop wearing one the other day and he made no effort to keep his 2m distance. 

In reply to DD72:

Yes, I used to wonder why this was so common, almost a cultural thing, and why they were so paranoid about catching something.  Then I realised that it was more likely because of social pressure not to be seen spreading infections to others and a sign of courtesy (which fits better with most Asian societies I think).  Perhaps someone can enlighten me.

I think most of the masks you used to see people wearing were next to useless, but perhaps we'll all get used to wearing better ones when they become widely available and it will be seen to be impolite to go out anywhere crowded without one here too.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

The paper surgeons' masks are pretty useless for protecting you but they do stop you spreading if you are pre-symptomatic. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

That depends on the mask, the ones my wife wears at work (she's a doctor) wet-out in a few hours, I wear FFP2 for work (grinding metal) and they last for days as they have an outlet valve. But the protection is different, the surgical masks protect the other people, FFP 2 & 3 protect the wearer.

In reply to DD72:

I have used them, one time in Japan on docter's orders, and every once in a while for work. They are seriously annoying.

From next week onwards, they'll be obligatory at work at all situation where you can meet other people. We'll simply have to live with them for a while.

In reply to jimtitt:

I guess FFP 2&3 masks can protect other people as well as the wearers?

In reply to Timmd:

Not if they have an outlet valve, as your breath will be blown out un-filtered. 

In reply to Red Rover:

Protecting others drom droplets being coughed or sneezed into the surrounding air is what I had in mind, but the air being unfiltered makes sense more generally.

In reply to Timmd:

Valved masks aren't designed to protect anyone but the wearer, they have a small valve that opens to allow exhaled air out. They'll catch some droplets if you sneeze but not much more than that. One of the key studies on the use of masks in clinical settings highlighted that a large part of the protection comes from the presence of a mask reminding you not to touch your face.

If you have any questions about masks or other PPE ask away (I am a safety manager for an inhaled drug development company).

In reply to Red Rover:

I am also yet to see anything short of a full face powered respirator actually stay in place during a sneeze.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Yes, this is correct. Masks are worn in Asia to prevent you spreading an infection if you are feeling unwell, not to prevent you from catching one.

In reply to Reach>Talent:

Interesting to see how the cultural respect aspect works when people realise valved masked wearers aren't protecting other people but think they are infected! Maybe I'll stick my sprayers mask on next time I go to the shops, it's A2P3.

In reply to Reach>Talent: Ah, right, interesting. Thanks.

In reply to DD72:

I'm happy to wear one if required.  

I understand that in Czech republic they are now all wearing home made masks to help.  

I have read that a home made fabric mask can be more effective than no mask.  My concern here and at this time would be if people decide a mask means they can go out when they otherwise wouldn't.  Already had this discussion with a family member.

In reply to Timmd:

Not usually. What everyone thinks is a filter is really the outlet valve(round plastic bit), so everything you breath out goes straight out the mask. You breath in through material which is the filter. 

In reply to summo: I realise that, it was stopping a spray of droplets during a sneeze I had in mind, rather than filtering out the pathogen on the out breath. I have been correctly informed on the matter up thread, too.

In reply to DD72:

Personally, I'd wear goggles before a face mask. And where possible, wear both.

In reply to The Lemming:

Arguably better to move into military grade bio hazard protection, or masks worn by a paint sprayer. Changeable canisters and a mask that can be washed properly in a bucket of something appropriate. Problem is they may looking more intimidating and less clinical, unless a company can make them in prettier colours. 

In reply to DD72:

I have done many a job that requires wearing a mask for up to 8 hours at a time, you soon get used to them.

What I struggle with is my air fed full face shield, its basically a hard hat with a face shield and a elastic seal that goes under your chin. The battery pack supplies filtered air for 10 hours at a rate of more that you can breath and the excess air vents around the seal. Air constantly expelling = nothing gets in.

It's a pain though because unlike a mask it's easy to forget your wearing it until you try get close to a machine and it hits what you are looking at. 

In reply to marsbar:

If you make a home made one out of a bra, use the left cup - or you'll look a right tit.

My wife wore her Buff to Tesco's earlier, over mouth and nose, but I've not yet bothered - but then, I've barely been out of the house in the last 3 weeks. I have got some FFP2 masks in the garage, acquired for various DIY projects, but not yet felt the urge to wear them out in public.

In reply to marsbar:

I would be interested to see how some of these simple fabric masks actually behave:

While I can see the benefits of being constantly reminded not to touch your face and potentially providing some protection from large droplets every time I see one I can't help being reminded of a nebuliser; a fine mesh in front of your face that you breathe through just seems like a way of generating very fine droplets, rather than larger droplets. If this is the case it wouldn't be great as fine droplets have a longer 'flight time' meaning greater range and also travel deeper into the lung when inhaled.

In reply to jimtitt:

So if masks are made compulsory, does the government specify whether we are protecting ourselves or others? If I wear one with a vent to protect myself but I am actually infected and someone else wears one which offers them little protection but would stop them spreading, then we have defeated the object of it! Lol

In reply to DD72:

I'd love a mask with a creepy grin on it or something similar. I hope I'm not the only one.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Well the Austrian "rules" are vague as it gets and a scarf is good enough apparently. FFP2 and 3 are not recommended as the objective is to prevent the wearer infecting others and as they have valves this doesn't work. Basically the recommendations are illogical and badly thought out but hell, it's Austria right?

In reply to staticx:

I want a skelington jaw mask

In reply to Reach>Talent:

One of the key studies on the use of masks in clinical settings highlighted that a large part of the protection comes from the presence of a mask reminding you not to touch your face.

Do you have a reference for that pls 

In reply to obi-wan nick b:

I will have a look, I was forwarded a copy a month or so back so it is probably somewhere on the work laptop. 

In reply to obi-wan nick b:

I'm pretty sure it was discussed in a paper linked to in this Guardian article about use of masks to prevent the asymptomatic infected from spreading it;

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/apr/04/why-wear-a-mask-may-b...

It also said that pretty much any improvised face covering, such as a Buff, has value in reducing the risk of spread. Anything that reduces aerosol emission from coughs, sneezes and speaking, to some degree, is a help.

It also pointed out it's not to protect the wearer, but to prevent the wearer spreading infection.

In reply to DD72:

I would not even know where to get a mask from, or hand sanitiser or face masks - there has been none available here since the whole thing started. There is no such thing available in Dunblane anywhere, I don't know where people get it from, I can't even get my normal drugs from the health centre...I was told in no uncertain terms to go away by the receptionists 

In reply to DD72:

We are wearing them for every visit at work. We have an FFP3 mask each, and some fluid resistant surgical ones. 
Went to a poorly today and the house was full of cigarette smoke. Wore one of my surgical ones as I want to save the FFP3 for subjectively worse scenarios.

 I put the mask on outside and could smell smoke instantly as I entered.

Unless it’s a fully fit tested mask it inna worth pish in protecting you.

Please don’t believe the hype.

In reply to DD72:

I work around asbestos and have used different masks with ffp3 filters. The full face powered type are comfortable for hours but I think I'd look a bit mental wearing one of those in the local shop. The half face silicone ones are great for about half an hour then you sweat and they feel horrible. I thought about using mine to go to the supermarket last week but just thought I'd look a bit crazy. Of course if everyone was wearing them it would probably feel normal. I've never worn a paper mask but I doubt they'd be comfy for very long. 

Also you need to be clean shaven, and preferably face fitted for them to be of any use. Seeing people with full beards and a paper mask loosely over the top as I've seen a few people doing is entirely pointless. 

I think the government don't push people to wear them as they're in such short supply they don't want people buying them up at extortionate prices when they should be sold to the health service. 

I know my company has donated some of our filters and a couple of spare masks to the NHS as we're all furloughed anyway. Doubt we'd have done that if everyone at work was crying out for spares to use in Tesco.

In reply to DD72:

I first saw someone wearing a mask/mouth covering on the 13th of March. I know this because it was the last time I went to the gym. I cracked a smile at the time, but almost 4 weeks on it's far less out-of-the ordinary. 

We were offered P3 masks and mask fittings at work (Essential water industry role). Being happily bearded (But not in a hipster way) I passed, but I think all of my colleagues took the option. These were with the aim of protecting us from exposure rather than the others, work can't afford for us or our neighbouring teams to have to isolate, never mind contracting the virus. 

The only time I'm in contact with anyone other than the 3 colleagues in my splintered, separated work tame and my co-habiting girlfriend is for the weekly food shop. It's the only time I feel exposed and think "should I have reached for the razor and taken up the mask offer?". Give it a few weeks and we'll see how that decision pans out.

In reply to nathan79:

I would take up the offer! Your colleagues' masks won't protect you as their breath goes unfiltered out of the valve. And shops are probably quite a risk at the moment. You can always grow the beard back!

In reply to girlymonkey:

We've just finished our first tranche of 'lockdown' here and our government has specifically not made people wear masks for the next tranche because they lull people into a false sense of security. We can wear them if we're symptomatic, but we should be quarantining ourselves in our homes if we're symptomatic anyway.

In reply to Toerag:

Where are you? It's interesting to see different countries takes on this!

In reply to summo:

An L85? Remove the hazard before you get close.

In reply to Davidlees215:

Exactly, plenty of FFP3 3 masks at my place of work. All of which have gone to the NHS 

In reply to jimtitt:

I see your A2P3 and raise you my A2B2E2P3 filter. That said a P3 will do the job, and I do have a full face respirator, which at least gives a decent face seal (after a shave). That would freak them out in Tescos.

In answer to the OP, things would have to get bad or there'd have to be some directive before I'd wear one as a matter of course. The Mrs isn't wearing one (although she does wear surgical gloves) for the shop run every couple of weeks despite me giving her a disposable P3 with exhalation valve.

In reply to mondite:

MLRS

In reply to Ridge:

Tad indiscriminate and could crack the last eggs on the shelf. I can see the appeal though.

In reply to Ridge:

I was entertained shopping last night to see some numpty with their mask (not sure what variant but a bit more handy than a basic surgical mask) and surgical gloves repeatedly adjusting their ill fitting mask and then doubling down and wiping their eyes.

They didnt seem to quite grasp the limitations of their protective gear.

In reply to DD72:

I've got 3 KN95 masks from China (rough equivalent/maybe slightly better than FFP2?). I ordered them about 5 weeks ago, and they arrived c. 10 days ago. Put one on for c. 30 seconds. Not very nice. But I only bought them to cope with a total emergency situation (and for my partner). There's nothing whatever about them to suggest that they're fakes, in fact, they look very well made. Amazon billed them as being 'washable', but sadly everything on the packets is in Chinese, except for the crucial KN95, so I don't really know. 

In reply to mondite:

Yup, this so the big one. You can wear whatever type of mask or gloves you want, but don’t use them properly and they are often worse than useless. Out of the 10 or so people I’ve seen wearing them, 100% have done things that render them entirely pointless. My favourite was watching someone use their gloved hands to pull down their mask (thumb behind the mask itself) to talk to someone (way more effective at aerosolising droplets than just breathing) at close range before putting it back in again in the same fashion. Baffling. If you want to wear PPE, learn how to use it. Or even better, don’t, and let it go to those who actually need it whilst you wash your hands and don’t touch your face. (Rant not aimed at you!)

In reply to mondite:

Saw this last night with some poor carer who'd been refused her request to jump the queue at Tesco and had a video on the BBC explaining how it had screwed her day, and the day of those she is trying to care for.  As she welled up and wiped tears all I could think was "Arghhh, get those gloves off first!".

There's a similar discussion to be had with gloves, I think a lot of people are not sufficiently educated about why they need to take these measures and so sabotage themselves with bad practice.

I also looked at the hand sanitiser bottle on the way in to Tesco yesterday and thought "Hmmm do I want to hit that pump on the top that several hundred other hands have hit before me and trust the gel to kill the new germs?  No thanks".  

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

You can kind of test them. The filters on p2 and p3 masks are pretty dense, the fit should be snug, if you breath in hard it should suck onto your face, rather than allow air to be drawn in around the sides. 

In reply to summo:

Put your hands, or clingfilm if they're an odd shape, over the external inlets of the filter and breath in and hold your breath. The mask should remain 'clamped' in place over your face if you have a good face fit.

N.B. Make sure you know how to remove hand/clingfilm quickly or how to get the mask off prior to doing this.

As regards the filters being genuine - chinese stuff off amazon? Caveat emptor.

In reply to DD72:

I have a brand new breather mask as used by asbestos removal people, It has two tubes running to the main filter which is worn on your belt, found in in a house I had bought, with loads of new filters, different grades of filtration, possibly a bit over the top for visiting the local Aldi, but who knows? not worn any type of mask so far.

In reply to Red Rover:

are you wearing a mask yet?

In reply to malk:

I wear a cloth one in the shops just in case I have it and I'm pre-symptomatic, so it would restrict the spread of droplets from me. Best I can do.

By the way you've miss-quoted me a bit, it looks like I'm saying all masks don't protect you, I was just talking about the paper surgical ones which are to stop you spreading it, not to protect yourself. 

The full quote was "The paper surgeons' masks are pretty useless for protecting you but they do stop you spreading if you are pre-symptomatic. "

In reply to DD72:

I suspect the 'all or nothin', 'useless or 100 effective' vibe on here isn't appropriate to this crisis, and I suspect the countries where the practice is widespread are on to something.

If it is passed on through coughing, talking, exhaling, than I suspect a clothbarrier will be effective, nowhere near 100%, but when a partially effective measure is taken up by many, there will be an effect. That's without considering viral load, which seems to be a thing too.

I can see why there's no encouragement here though, because of the problems demand would cause.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Dave, it's exactly that. I work in a university with a very high Chinese student population and remember wondering WTF when I had just started and I saw them wearing masks. Spoke to a few of them and they explained that it's to stop them passing the bugs to others. V civilised.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Our local Tesco has one-way policy. Going to a shop now feels like an experience because new stuff happens every time you go there. 

The only guy I noticed with the mask was the one who tried to power through me while going against the suggested direction. I barely managed to step out of his way before being knocked out. I promise, no exaggeration - you just couldn't make shit up.