UKH

So it seems that this is what I drove once yesterday on the way to Eskdale. I've never heard of it before. Quite an unexpected experience. I think my arse is just starting to unclench.

Beautiful views though.

In reply to ThunderCat:

I concur.  The first time I ever drove a minibus it was to take a uni climbing club trip to our hut in the Duddon valley, via Wrynose.  Pitch black, raining sideways, steep drop to one side, very -errr- atmospheric.  The next day when I did it in the light of day it was a wonderful surprise.

In reply to ThunderCat:

One of the most terrifying moments of all my driving experiences.  Busy weekend and with 5 people in an old 1.2 corsa.  The smell of burning cluch and the squeals of spinning wheels are burned into my memory

In reply to Lornajkelly:

A f***** minibus? Hats off to you. Tiny little dacia and I was still bricking it. 

In reply to kingborris:

Sensed it getting gradually narrower before it started to climb . From the distance I actually thought it was a nice, pretty little waterfall or stream meandering down from the top until the missus pointed out 'erm, we' re driving up that '. Thankfully we only encountered about three cars coming the other way. 

In reply to Lornajkelly:

That reminds me of the first time I went over the Bealach na Ba to Applecross, much as you describe - dark, rain, little visibility, no white lines on the sides of the road, crash barriers notable by their absence. When we got to the top, there was another car, stationary, at the side of the road. I stopped to make sure they were alright, and the driver admitted to being so traumatised by the experience that he needed some time to recover his composure. He asked if he could follow us down into Applecross, and of course I agreed - although the descent on that side is considerably less forbidding than the ascent from Kishorn. 

In reply to ThunderCat:

Fred Dibnah took a steam engine over these passes I think! I'm sure I've seen a film of it but can't seem to find it on Youtube.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

I love it, do it whenever I get a chance.  Satnavs do seem to be sending people over it who have a tendency to get stuck.  I recommended one such person go back and round via Barrow the other week.

It's particularly difficult in saloon cars (Mondys, Vectras etc) with aluminium-head engines, as the engine is too light to put enough weight over the front wheels.  Smaller cars tend to cope fine, as does my Landy!

It has to be done with patience and courtesy - never, ever do it against the clock.  You might end up waiting a good 10 minutes while someone gets themselves unstuck - if getting out to help isn't worthwhile as enough people already are, just sit back, relax and enjoy the scenery.

I do enjoy a driving challenge where you win by being careful, courteous and sensible - the real challenge is making progress with these things and keeping it as smooth as possible.

In reply to ThunderCat:

To be fair it's probably easier in a large diesel-engined minibus with a robust clutch and a lot of weight over driven rear wheels than it is in a petrol car, particularly a FWD saloon where the front wheels are a long way forward.  The Landy will still start off with no accelerator at all on the steepest bits - makes it loads easier.  No need for low range or anything.  (This is a good job as it's a transmission handbrake so you can't pull off against it).

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Drove my van up that over Easter looking for Sword of Gideon (VS 4c). Blowing a gale so lost psych anyway but the engine light indicating overheating came on just as I arrived at the summit! Ate lunch while the engine cooled and rolled back to Torridon! Pretty savage driving, especially the last set of switchbacks.

In reply to Neil Williams:

You're right there, but it's also made much more challenging by the presence of 14 super excited 19-odd year olds chattering and laughing.  Doesn't help the concentration much.

And I can't pretend I was much over 30 mph at any point!

In reply to ThunderCat:

My first time was on verglassed roads in winter with an enthusiastic fast driver. We had to return in dark and I didn't live down first unsucessfully trying to persuade him to take a long alternative route then insisting on wearing my helmet inside the car.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Not a good place to discover that your handbrake needs tightening.

In reply to oldie:

I had a "driving lesson" over the pass, starting from Durham, with my grandfather in his 80s as the qualified driver.  Peugeot 205 with a 950cc engine, rainstorm and a motorbike rally event coming the other way.

Formative!  Bealach na Ba a doddle by comparison, though a dodgy handbrake adds spice to meeting other cars on the way up.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Last time I was up there it almost ended badly. 2 up on a motorbike with touring luggage and had to stop mid hairpin going up because a prick in a coursa coming down decided he had the right of way despite me already being mid turn. Not easy to either stop and hold the bike up or get moving again, the angle of the road meant my brake foot was the one I had to put down leaving my trying to get the revs up whilst releasing the front brake with the same hand. 

In reply to ThunderCat:

Try on a roadbike with rim brakes when its wet for the true arse clenching experience.

In reply to ThunderCat:

then try it on a tandem before disc brakes were invented. It took us 3 tries before we finally made it - the first two times we stripped the thread where the block screws onto the rear wheel (in those days it was a simple screw thread for the block).

coming down was indeed worse than going up - taking the extra length of a tandem round the hairpins - not easy.

happy times.

In reply to Neil Williams:

If you try them on a Saturday, they seem to be part of some sort of 'must do in the lakes' driving challenge. Lots of people trying to go over, some boy racer types seem to equate driving them, with adding inches to their manhood. Courteous is not the first word that springs to mind. 

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

As a regular on the BnB (see what I did there) and the Lakes passes, I find my enthusiasm for the driving experience sorely tested by the tourists trickling past the signs stating "use passing places to allow overtaking" without once pulling over. I know, I'm as irritating as the arsehole in the de-badged, bottom of the range, diesel Audi who's up your back end in the fast lane. But these are roads crying out to be driven with brio, not crawling behind a fecking camper van.

In reply to BnB:

If you want to drive them "with brio", go out in the middle of the night and do it.  There is no room for anything but courtesy and patience, and (as I mentioned above) a saloon is more likely to get stuck than a camper.

(Though the middle bit between the two passes has excellent sightlines and if empty can indeed be driven enthusiastically!)

In reply to Neil Williams:

No please don't go out in the middle of the night and race over these passes. The sheep sleep on the roads at night!

Courtesy and patience all the way yes. Especially on these roads it's the only way. Part of that courtesy is allowing other traffic to pass.

I drive over both passes sometimes 3 or 4 times a week and see allsorts of driving / vehicles. Smell many burnt clutches too. A couple of weeks ago a 3.5 ton van broken down (burnt clutch) on the steepest section of Hardknott. Partially blocking the road for hours and a large recovery truck needed to clear up his mess! He followed the sat-nav so wasn't expecting such a road.

Worth bearing in mind if thinking of using these roads anytime soon, the Fred Whitton race isn't far away now and many cyclists are training on the passes.

In reply to Mark Eddy:

To cyclists using the Pass - please don't dive in and out of cars.  That's the one seriously bad experience I've had up there (during a triathlon) - you can easily pass once a straight section is reached.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Next time your up that way stop and have a gander at the Roman fort. spectacular location and properly atmospheric. I keep threatening the kids that we're going to camp out there one night and look for ghostly legionaries.

In reply to ThunderCat:

Hardknott / Wrynose?... Piece of piss.

I once reversed a Robin Reliant over them, without the benefit of any engine. Or fuel. And only a single wheel. 

In reply to Clauso:

That’s nothing.  I once pushed a broken down mini bus full of fat hairy arsed cavers and all their gear up it.  It was harder than I thought coz some fecker left the hand brake on.

In reply to Clauso:

I drove up in my 20 metre long 40 ton HGV merc in a hurricane wearing high heels and eating a fish supper. 

In reply to Route Adjuster:

I think it was the Llanberis Pass your thinking of, he remarked that the Valnol Arms was closed mid day!!!

In reply to Pefa:

Ah try getting out at at the top and chopping the ice off with ice tools for a 100 yds on the downside.

In reply to ThunderCat:

It won’t be the same now I don’t have my Peugeot 306.  

I want to drive it in our EV, a Nissan Leaf.  The lack of a clutch and instant high torque at low speeds make it shine on steep bendy terrain - although it’s full lock is a bit of a disappointment.

Tebay services are just at the limit of our range so it’s going to take some logistics to do it one day, as if we turn up and - as is so often the way when going somewhere - the rapid charge point is broken, we are fooked.

In reply to BnB:

If you get there early enough then even on a sunny Sunday Wrynose and HK are a pleasure to drive

Coming back later in the day is a different experience

Many years ago, original Cavalier SRi, 5 up with camping gear, <2 minutes from cattle grid on Wrynose side to top of HK. Never managed to repeat this even driving solo in more powerful car. Presumably I no longer have the umph (stupidity?) of youf.

Never done BnB, sounds like I need to go to Scotland again sometime soonish.

In reply to ThunderCat:

My wife went over Wrynose with L plates on, she wanted more time behind the wheel prior to her upcoming test and we didn’t know anything about the road...she was fine.

Failed the test though

In reply to Wimlands:

My wife went over with L plates on

Don't think it was quite the hen night she was expecting!

In reply to Michael Hood:

SRi could do very good times over the Bealach in days of yore when the roads were less busy, and also the Shieldaig-Kishorn section or the N Applecross road.  Times are different now, sadly and it's all anglicised anyway

In reply to ThunderCat:

I finally gained my Dad's respect when I drove him over the Hardknott Pass

In reply to ThunderCat:

I did the Fred Whitton a few years ago, not closed roads but pretty much closed with a steady trickle of a few hundred bikes at walking pace on the steep stuff. Except there was a big old jag mixed in there towards the top of Hardknott. It wasn't pretty. Lots of smoke and some bad smells.

In reply to Michael Hood:

The scariest road I’ve driven in the UK is the burway on the Long Mynd. Very precipitous. I drove up, which isn’t so bad. Coming down and having to reverse into some of those passing places would have been terrifying. 

In reply to ThunderCat: More than ten years ago while walking down it with my Dad and his friend, we came across an abandoned car pulled to one side which had had some of the doors left open, as if it'd been abandoned in rush, it was clean and seemed 'freshly abandoned'. It comes to mind occasionally still because of the oddness of it. We peered in for anybody needing help, and carried on again. It has lovely views on a clear day, though, the pass.

In reply to oldie:

My Dad and some friends drove down in the snow, and found signs at the bottom saying it was closed. Roads can be different kinds of slippery in the snow though, from slippery like ice to kinda crunchy and three dimensional underfoot.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

I assume that's the Leeds club. About 20 years ago I was on LUUMC trip when Jack managed to clip the mini bus wheel giving us a flat tyre on top of Wrynose.

In reply to ThunderCat:

It always used to be quite something in an underpowered car - you really had to go at it, keep the momentum up, going up the Wrynose. I remember once, years ago, having driven up from London with my climbing partner, after a very bad drive on the MI with appalling traffic jams and heavy rain, getting into the Golden Rule in Ambleside well after 10 pm. I had at least three pints ... We then had to get to Wasdale. The Wrynose went fine but by the time I'd got to descending the Hardknott I'd become a bit of a rally driver and really threw the car round the bends. When we got to the flat ground of Eskdale I realised something was badly wrong, the car was pulling violently to one side. Obviously a puncture. It wasn't: I'd managed to drive the tyre off the rim. We then had to change the wheel in the dark and limp round to the Wasdale Head ... where, well after midnight, I went to the bar, hands covered with black grease from changing the wheel, and said I'd had this terrible drive up from London, puncture etc, was there any chance of a drink? 'Of course,' they said. PS. We still had the tent to put up ...

In reply to Baron Weasel:

Yes, the very same. Seemingly it's a feature of that trip. On the occasion I went there was a section of old wire in the parking area by the hut which the gear van fell victim to. One of the members got underneath to get the spare so we could at least get it home, only to find a massive hole in that too. Clearly the previous user had neglected to tell the hire company, who promptly tried to blame it on us.

In reply to ThunderCat:

My youngest son for many years did recovery for Eskdale Garage and has many stories to tell of incompetence and stupidity on the passes.Sterling Moss no less managed to shread two tyres but had the humility to remark,I think I have been a bit of a pratt.

In reply to Lornajkelly:

Driven a minibus over them a few times - pretty sure one of the front wheels wasn't entirely on the road at one point, as another car tried to squeeze past the other way!

Pretty hard/scary to cycle over, too - especially with cantilever brakes!

In reply to ThunderCat:

I've driven my camper (LWB Ducato) over both of these. The scariest bit was coming down the east side of Hard Knott where the hairpins are both steep and tight. The prospect of failing to make the turn in one go preys on the mind, as doing a reverse hill start in such a position is very worrying. I think I've decided not to do that again. 

The main problem with this road is meeting other drivers who have no previous experience of such a road, of which there are many in the holiday season. Many also are unaware of the need for down drivers to give way to those going up.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I wonder what it is about alcohol and outdoor places and driving? It isn't big or clever etc, but some family friends had six pints in the pub at the bottom of the track going up into the coppermines valley in Coniston, and then drove up to the YHA there in the dark, and wondered at the drop down the side the next day in the daylight.

In reply to Timmd:

I was young and foolish then.

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I walked over it carrying my camping and climbing gear from Ambleside to Wasdale Head once (having hitched from Salisbury). I was also young and foolish then!

In reply to jimtitt:

More like: young, fit and super keen

In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

I'd do that, and I am not young any more (though I'm not that unfit).

In reply to ThunderCat:

From my recollection, Austin Maxi drivers with gloves were by far the most dangerous objects to encounter - whether Wrynose or Hard Knott, driving up or down. Cap-wearers meant that it was probably curtains.

In reply to Greenbanks:

I used to have a Maxi, and sometimes wear a cap in my car. And we have curtains. So perhaps that's why any cars I've met up on the passes always seem to get off the road when they see my van bearing down on them.

In reply to Rog Wilko:

I had a Maxi as well, once got driving gloves as a Xmas present but too ponsy to wear . The maxi was great for driving over the passes as long as it did not overheat and blow the head gasket, and great for dossing in, making into a flat double bed. Had an SU carb so was not affected by the altitude on alpine passes. It did once come unstuck, trying to drive up to kleine schneidegg, when the edge of the , erhum , path , gave way. Not bad really when technically we tried to drive up the n face of the Eiger.

Anybody managed to overtake on the Hard Knott pass ? The chevette did a few times, usefully narrower than the maxi .

In reply to Rog Wilko:

It wasn't a beige colour was it, Rog? (Or the elegantly termed 'Sahara Sh*t'). If it was, I may have been the dark blue MkI Escort taking evasive action.