/ Gravy train of Cocaine

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The Wild Scallion 10 Oct 2019

https://news.sky.com/story/revealed-how-much-cocaine-londoners-are-taking-every-day-11830741

Jesus Christ Londoners that's quite a habit you have there.

They should have gone to Fuc@sted school.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzL843w3O3o

where is shitting crickey is my nose ?

It's in a jar Mate !

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Lusk 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Great headline!
London has about 1.4 times the population of those three cities combined.

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Eric9Points 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

If I have a few minutes at lunchtime I'll figure out how far a single line of 23Kg of Costorphine speed would stretch for.

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Jon Stewart 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Doesn't seem to be linked to any particular health crisis, so perhaps the best response is, so what?

I don't think the "fair trade" arguments really stick with cokeheads, so while we can all make moral judgements about what they choose to do in their spare time, I don't think doing so gets us very far. Legalise it, or ignore it, seem to be the best things to do about this IMO.

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Blue Straggler 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

> Great headline!

> London has about 1.4 times the population of those three cities combined.

Exactly! I imagine London eats more Big Macs and drinks more coffee than that lot too. 

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Toccata 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

If each user takes a single dose that's one in 20 of the population taking it every day. I wonder what the rate of alcohol consumption would be if units were divided among the population? I've worked with doctors who've suggested if everyone took cocaine instead of alcohol the country would be a better place.

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McHeath 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Be interesting to hear if they did spot tests on the waste water from, say, the Palace, the Houses of Parliament, the big football clubs, Number 10 ...

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Enty 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Toccata:

> If each user takes a single dose that's one in 20 of the population taking it every day. I wonder what the rate of alcohol consumption would be if units were divided among the population? I've worked with doctors who've suggested if everyone took cocaine instead of alcohol the country would be a better place.


For a couple of weeks ;-)

E

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artif 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Toccata:

What about the countries that produce it.

Some nasty chemicals get used then dumped in to the environment during its production

Legalising and producing it under western manufacturing requirements would clearly be a better idea 

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felt 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Enty:

> For a couple of weeks ;-)

I always think of the Fabulous Furry Freak Brothers comic "Grass Roots" where they somehow get a mountain of coke and buy a property in the country and have all these amazing dreams and plans and projects for the place and it all seems fantastic, better and better, and then they realise that they've snorted the whole damned lot and have actually ended up with this collapsing dump of a ruin right on the edge of a cliff in Vulture Gulch or something, I forget the details.

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Blue Straggler 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Toccata:

Doctors of what? Philosophy? Anthropology? 

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Eric9Points 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Eric9Points:

> If I have a few minutes at lunchtime I'll figure out how far a single line of 23Kg of Costorphine speed would stretch for.


Assuming a line is about 60mm long and the report is to believed in that the 23Kg equals 567445 lines then put end to end they would go for 34Km.

I imagine that would stretch most if not all of the way across London.

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Lusk 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Just looked at your mugshot, are you the next James Bond?

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SC 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I live in a small town in Somerset which in recent years has become popular with London hipsters escaping the city and it's lead to a huge rise in cocaine in the town. 

The people who enjoy regularly powdering their noses are generally the same ones who are always talking about how they only buy fair trade and organic.

I've been talked at by quite a few coke heads in town and I can conclusively say that the main side effect is it makes people talk b**cks about all sorts of boring stuff. 

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The Wild Scallion 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

I'm feeling brave so I put that up from the wedding earlier this year.

> Just looked at your mugshot, are you the next James Bond?

Sigh...   If only women would think this .

I could be if you if you like 

Whats the salary ? and when do I start ?

Post edited at 14:18
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Ridge 10 Oct 2019
In reply to artif:

> What about the countries that produce it.

> Some nasty chemicals get used then dumped in to the environment during its production

> Legalising and producing it under western manufacturing requirements would clearly be a better idea 

I think the Cartels might be somewhat resistant, in a skinning the licenced manufacturers' children alive kind of way, to such developments in the market.

Post edited at 14:48
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Mike Stretford 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Toccata:

> If each user takes a single dose that's one in 20 of the population taking it every day. I wonder what the rate of alcohol consumption would be if units were divided among the population? I've worked with doctors who've suggested if everyone took cocaine instead of alcohol the country would be a better place.

Most cokeheads I've known get through a lot of booze too.

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artif 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Ridge:

But think of the jobs it could generate in the, soon to free of those pesky  EU regulations, UK.

Boris could have his photo taken touring the manufacturing facilities he'll be able to fund with all the new wealth we'll have and just think of all the tax revenue it'll make for the country. Not forgetting the farmers who will be happy with a new cash generating crop. : )

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Bob Kemp 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Did anyone watch the C5 documentary the other night? I didn't, yet, but this review suggests it was a bit of an eye-opener:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2019/oct/08/doing-drugs-for-fun-review-the-true-horrors-of-cocaine-revealed

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DaveHK 10 Oct 2019
Jon Stewart 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Ridge:

> I think the Cartels might be somewhat resistant, in a skinning the licenced manufacturers' children alive kind of way, to such developments in the market.

Good point.

If there is a solution to the horror of the coke market, it might lie not in legalising cocaine, but in legalising an effective substitute that's made in a lab, and decreasing demand that way. The pharmacology has already been done (legal highs of the mid 2000s).

Imagine how much suffering could be avoided if a massive reduction in demand for cocaine was achieved.

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Pefa 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Nose candy is a great cure for having savings in the bank. 

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Lusk 10 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> Sigh...   If only women would think this .

Your opening line is "The name's Scallion, Wild Scallion" and you'll beating them away with a large stick 😄

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Blunderbuss 10 Oct 2019
In reply to SC:

> I live in a small town in Somerset which in recent years has become popular with London hipsters escaping the city and it's lead to a huge rise in cocaine in the town. 

> The people who enjoy regularly powdering their noses are generally the same ones who are always talking about how they only buy fair trade and organic.

> I've been talked at by quite a few coke heads in town and I can conclusively say that the main side effect is it makes people talk b**cks about all sorts of boring stuff. 

The only way to deal with a night out with coke heads is to shovel even more of the shit up your nose than they are.... 

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MonkeyPuzzle 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Toccata:

> If each user takes a single dose that's one in 20 of the population taking it every day. I wonder what the rate of alcohol consumption would be if units were divided among the population? I've worked with doctors who've suggested if everyone took cocaine instead of alcohol the country would be a better place.

I currently find about a fifth of the population completely unbearable. Everyone being on coke would raise that to... *beepboopbeep* 100% of people.

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MonkeyPuzzle 10 Oct 2019
In reply to SC:

> I live in a small town in Somerset which in recent years has become popular with London hipsters escaping the city and it's lead to a huge rise in cocaine in the town. 

> The people who enjoy regularly powdering their noses are generally the same ones who are always talking about how they only buy fair trade and organic.

> I've been talked at by quite a few coke heads in town and I can conclusively say that the main side effect is it makes people talk b**cks about all sorts of boring stuff. 

But Frome market is great though.

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Tom V 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Pefa:

It's also a solution for those who think that two nostrils is one too many.

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bouldery bits 10 Oct 2019
In reply to SC:

> I've been talked at by quite a few coke heads in town and I can conclusively say that the main side effect is it makes people talk b**cks about all sorts of boring stuff. 

Like living in a UKC politics thread then! :P

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Deadeye 10 Oct 2019
In reply to artif:

Ha! Top marks for fretting about the chem-impact of producing cocaine.

Seriously; I guarantee that the direct social harm will hugely outweigh the production considerations.

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artif 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Deadeye:

Couldn't give a s#17 about what people stuff up their noses or elsewhere, but destroying rain forest for it, seems rather a waste. 

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Timmd 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Doesn't seem to be linked to any particular health crisis, so perhaps the best response is, so what?

> I don't think the "fair trade" arguments really stick with cokeheads, so while we can all make moral judgements about what they choose to do in their spare time, I don't think doing so gets us very far. Legalise it, or ignore it, seem to be the best things to do about this IMO.

In my experience there's something of a spectrum of users, from people who dabble to cokeheads. One friend in particular just dabbles, and jokes to her partner about 'fair trade coke' as a sideways acknowledgement that it isn't. For people like that, it may have more effect to raise the ethical issues than it would do for somebody who'd struggle to function without it. 

Edit: On more of a general drugs related topic, I was surprised to learn recently that the stories of rat poison being mixed into certain drugs potentially aren't as far fetched as some might believe. Due to how rat poison kills rats by sending them hyperactive and giving them a heart attack, it can get mixed in with MDMA powder to help make people more hyperactive. 

Post edited at 23:26
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Lusk 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

I used to live with a pair of charlie dealers, they'd get big chunks of the real deal and cut it back in the house.  Obviously we'd check it out, ... the most over rated drug in history!

Now, bottles of GHB for about a tenner, that would last you about a week, now your talking

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Jon Stewart 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> In my experience there's something of a spectrum of users, from people who dabble to cokeheads. One friend in particular just dabbles, and jokes to her partner about 'fair trade coke' as a sideways acknowledgement that it isn't. For people like that, it may have more effect to raise the ethical issues than it would do for somebody who'd struggle to function without it. 

Someone like that is fully aware of the ethical issues but can't be arsed to give a f*ck.

No one struggles to function without cocaine, it isn't addictive in that way. What people struggle with is going to a party and having fun without it. I've got a radical solution for people afflicted by a terrible "cocaine problem": stop going out and taking cocaine.

> Edit: On more of a general drugs related topic, I was surprised to learn recently that the stories of rat poison being mixed into certain drugs potentially aren't as far fetched as some might believe. Due to how rat poison kills rats by sending them hyperactive and giving them a heart attack, it can get mixed in with MDMA powder to help make people more hyperactive. 

Have you any idea how cheap MDMA is? It isn't cut with rat poison - that would make it more expensive!

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Timmd 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Someone like that is fully aware of the ethical issues but can't be arsed to give a f*ck.

> No one struggles to function without cocaine, it isn't addictive in that way. What people struggle with is going to a party and having fun without it. I've got a radical solution for people afflicted by a terrible "cocaine problem": stop going out and taking cocaine.

> Have you any idea how cheap MDMA is? It isn't cut with rat poison - that would make it more expensive!

I always had you down as somebody with strong opinions, but who was factually correct. It's definitely true that I've come across rat poison being mixed in with MDMA, and most drug sites tend to see cocaine as being highly addictive. https://www.recovery.org.uk/crack-addiction/is-cocaine-addictive/

Who am I to argue? ;-)

Post edited at 23:43
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Jon Stewart 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

> Now, bottles of GHB for about a tenner, that would last you about a week, now your talking

The deadly date-rape drug? ;)

All drugs are massively over-dramatised. A big dose of a psychedelic is pretty spectacular, but other than  that, if you're expecting something amazing to happen when you take a drug, it's a guaranteed let-down. Goes for the new things everyone's scared of like "spice" and "bath salts" too - obviously problematic in overdose or habit, but they're not particularly dramatic substances in themselves.

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Lusk 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> The deadly date-rape drug? ;)

Years later, I heard it was.  But it's one of the funniest drugs I've ever had, just got to be careful you don't over do it!  Did od once, what a f*cking disaster that was.

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Jon Stewart 10 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> It's definitely true that I've come across rat poison being mixed in with MDMA,

How do you know that?

> and most drug sites tend to see cocaine as being highly addictive. https://www.recovery.org.uk/crack-addiction/is-cocaine-addictive/

Cocaine makes you feel terrible when it wears off, making you want more there and then. Once you've run out of coke and finally gone to sleep, you wake up afterwards feeling a bit rough/tired/ashamed, but you're no longer in cocaine withdrawal. It's gone - you don't feel a strong craving to do cocaine again. If you're a cokehead, you'll get a strong urge to do cocaine again next time you're in the social setting where it's normal for you.

It's a lot like alcohol: the vast majority of people who use it don't get anywhere near forming an addiction, but they use it as a social lubricant, and they get dependent on it for that reason.

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Lusk 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Cocaine makes you feel terrible when it wears off, making you want more there and then. Once you've run out of coke and finally gone to sleep, you wake up afterwards feeling a bit rough/tired/ashamed, but you're no longer in cocaine withdrawal. It's gone - you don't feel a strong craving to do cocaine again. If you're a cokehead, you'll get a strong urge to do cocaine again next time you're in the social setting where it's normal for you.

Is that the voice of experience?

No criticism going on here, I'm a wobbling on the edge of alcoholism.

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Jon Stewart 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

I've never been a coke head, or a regular user (not tempting since its not that fun, it's expensive and immoral) but I've got enough experience to know what it does and doesn't do. 

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Lusk 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

More of an Amyl Nitrite kind of guy?!

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Jon Stewart 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

Crystal meth, actually. 

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BnB 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

> Years later, I heard it was.  But it's one of the funniest drugs I've ever had, just got to be careful you don't over do it!  Did od once, what a f*cking disaster that was.

Never tried GHB, but I remember my buddy being taken away from a club in an ambulance after a swig. Put me off a bit.

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SC 11 Oct 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

The monthly tw*tle market? There's nowhere better to buy a broken 1980's bread bin for £400

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The New NickB 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Lusk:

> Great headline!

> London has about 1.4 times the population of those three cities combined.

Yes, what it mainly pointed out was that per capita consumption in Amsterdam and particularly Barcelona is much higher.

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MonkeyPuzzle 11 Oct 2019
In reply to SC:

> The monthly tw*tle market? There's nowhere better to buy a broken 1980's bread bin for £400

Yes, my other half is the target demographic. I'm fine as long as the guy selling seabass burgers is there. Actually, some coke would probably help pass the time...

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In reply to The New NickB:

> Yes, what it mainly pointed out was that per capita consumption in Amsterdam and particularly Barcelona is much higher.


Interesting that all 3 cities have significant tourist/leisure/business/commuter/short break visitors etc

- So is it the resident population or the visitor population which are pushing the usage up?

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The New NickB 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Nempnett Thrubwell:

I did wonder that, of course London has significant visitor numbers as well, but probably doesn’t compare as a proportion of the city’s residents, possibly a different demographic.

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Toerag 11 Oct 2019
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

> I'm fine as long as the guy selling seabass burgers is there.

I bet it's not bass in the burgers. Most likely grey mullet.

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MonkeyPuzzle 11 Oct 2019
In reply to Toerag:

It's f*cking tasty whatever it is.

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Timmd 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> > It's definitely true that I've come across rat poison being mixed in with MDMA,

> How do you know that?

I know about (a proportionally small amount of) rat poison being mixed in with MDMA, because I've seen it being done. 

It's got a quality about it which can make people hyper or more lively, I'm not saying it's always going to be mixed in, but it isn't never going to be, too. Which (we'd both agree) is why legalisation is a sensible plan. 

Post edited at 01:24
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Pete Pozman 18 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I'm feeling brave so I put that up from the wedding earlier this year.

> Sigh...   If only women would think this .

As long as your wife thinks it. 

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The Wild Scallion 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> As long as your wife thinks it. 

I am not married.  

Friend's wedding earlier this year.

Women generally find me repulsive. 

Post edited at 08:24
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Bob Kemp 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

The story about rat-poison, in the form of strychnine, has been going around since the late '60s, first in connection with LSD, when the common stomach cramps that occurred during trips were blamed on strychnine adulteration. There's little evidence of its use as far as hallucinogens are concerned, and I haven't seen any evidence that it's used in cocaine. 

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mik82 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

What "rat poison" would this be though? Most commercially available rat poisons work by stopping blood clotting and would have no psychoactive effects The only time I've heard of it happening is on a BBC documentary. Surely that's a case of an idiot hearing the rubbish from anti-drugs literature that rat poison is "often" mixed with drugs and then adding it themselves. Either that or they've done it as a laugh to play up to the cameras.

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Bob Kemp 18 Oct 2019
In reply to mik82:

Apparently strychnine in very low doses is a mild stimulant. I seem to recall something about it being used in athletics for something. But the tabloids love these stories - there was one not so long ago about a drug-dealer claiming he added strychnine to his drugs. 

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Jon Stewart 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Timmd:

> I know about (a proportionally small amount of) rat poison being mixed in with MDMA, because I've seen it being done. 

I find this utterly bizarre and think you must be making some kind of mistake, or just have witnessed a very strange event. 

MDMA is very stimulating already - there'd be no reason to cut it with another stimulant.

Googling the subject tells me that the rat poison in question is strychnine, which has been as a performance enhancer...in the 19th century! From here, an urban myth developed in the 90s that batches of LSD contained this compound. They didn't.

It has apparently, very rarely been found in street drugs, in the UK once in 2000.

People reading this will have kids who go out taking MDMA - it isn't helpful to terrify them with stories about rat poison! As David Nutt, who is the leading authority on the harm caused by drugs, pointed out, taking ecstasy is less risky than horse riding, so we should relax about it rather than get hysterical. 

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toad 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

In fairness, horse riding is more dangerous than many people think and so its quite well regulated, unlike ecstasy production

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Jon Stewart 18 Oct 2019
In reply to toad:

Ecstasy production certainly isn't well regulated, but that doesn't tell us how dangerous taking the drug is.

About 500,000 brits take it per year. Some number between 10 and 100 die from it. That's not a risk I'm  going to worry about. If I worried about risks of that magnitude, I'd never get out of bed.

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La benya 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

Not that I think it’s true, but I fear you’re misunderstanding why drug dealers cut their drugs with other substances. 
 

it’s not to make the product better for their client, it’s not make it as cheap as possible for them while going unnoticed by the client. 
 

they would use a mild stimulant if it were cheaper than the actual drug and looked the same. 

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Jon Stewart 18 Oct 2019
In reply to La benya:

> it’s not to make the product better for their client, it’s not make it as cheap as possible for them while going unnoticed by the client. 

As I said at the start, MDMA is unbelievably cheap to begin with! It's not like heroin and cocaine that are cut for that reason.

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mik82 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Bob Kemp:

I would imagine strychnine is probably a lot harder to get hold of than MDMA or cocaine. It doesn't make any sense when you think about it. Why handle a deadly poison? If the dealer got it wrong they could kill themselves, or hundreds of people. You'd almost certainly have had a cluster of strychnine poisoning cases by now, but this hasn't happened.

Post edited at 10:30
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Bob Kemp 18 Oct 2019
In reply to mik82:

Seems pointless doesn't it? They could use caffeine as an enhancer much more easily. 

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La benya 18 Oct 2019
In reply to Jon Stewart:

it’s not that cheap. £40 a gram or so. But that’s not really the point is it? If an adulterant is cheaper then it makes sense to cut it and boost margins. 
 

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Tommyfatlad 18 Oct 2019
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

I realise I'm a bit off topic ish ……..but ……..

I wish the country had a brutally honest and open discussion about drugs, and how we as a nation are going to move forward knowing that this is happening on our doorsteps - and it is on everyone's doorstep.

The so called war on drugs is clearly not working, wouldn't energy and resources have a more positive influence if better directed elsewhere once the research is done ?!?!

Do countries like Portugal ( where all drugs are decriminalised ) or Holland* ( who provide free anonymous testing of drugs ) hold some answers as to how we either stop the use of drugs or control it for better, safer using or a bit of both ?!?!

I realise its a huge topic and a minefield of a discussion but surely something other than what's happening has to be done. 
I don't have any answers, only questions - I wish it was the other way round - but the current state of affairs isn't working.

TFL

*other counties also do this

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Jon Stewart 18 Oct 2019
In reply to La benya:

> it’s not that cheap. £40 a gram or so. But that’s not really the point is it? If an adulterant is cheaper then it makes sense to cut it and boost margins. 

If you're thinking of going into business offering some dodgy looking powder for a £40 a gram, I'd reconsider your business model, because the kids are accustomed to getting nice looking crystal stuff at less than half that price.

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Pete Pozman 17:22 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I am not married.  

> Friend's wedding earlier this year.

> Women generally find me repulsive. 

OK. It'll be the bridesmaids then. 

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Eric9Points 17:42 Fri
In reply to Lusk:

> Years later, I heard it was.  But it's one of the funniest drugs I've ever had, just got to be careful you don't over do it!  Did od once, what a f*cking disaster that was.


Did you wake up with a sore bum?

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Jon Stewart 18:02 Fri
In reply to Tommyfatlad:

Yes, it's pretty obvious we should decriminalise, legalise and medical drugs, depending on the specific drug and the social harms and benefits associated with it.

In fact, I actually think an awful lot of people agree with this. A couple of decades and a lot of the people stopping this policy being democratically viable with be dead, and that will be a big help.

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Ridge 18:13 Fri
In reply to The Wild Scallion:

> I am not married.  

> Friend's wedding earlier this year.

> Women generally find me repulsive. 

Oi! None of that talk young man

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In reply to Jon Stewart:

It's not obvious

Ps. Have you not "seen the damage done?"

Post edited at 19:59
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Dan Arkle 21:49 Fri
In reply to John Stainforth:

Medicalise - controlled prescription opiates would cut half of the total drug deaths in an instant. Without making it more easily available to people who aren't already addicts. 

Decriminalise - stop putting people in jail for possessing tiny amounts of chemicals they intend to use on themselves. 

Legalise - not everything. Just the drugs that are safer than horse riding, or mountaineering. Which would steer people towards the safer end. 

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La benya 07:14 Sat
In reply to Jon Stewart:

No they aren’t. But thanks for the advice

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John Kelly 07:53 Sat
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> Medicalise - controlled prescription opiates would cut half of the total drug deaths in an instant. Without making it more easily available to people who aren't already addicts. 

How do you avoid the large number of opiate deaths seen in America 

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Jon Stewart 09:04 Sat
In reply to John Stainforth:

> It's not obvious

> Ps. Have you not "seen the damage done?"

You're talking about damage done that would be greater under decriminalise/legalise/medicalise policies? 

No I haven't. Let's hear about it, and how decriminalise/legalise/medicalise policies would increase it. 

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Dan Arkle 10:12 Sat
In reply to John Kelly:

Very good question. 

The American problem is difficult. Most opioid problems start with prescribed meds. The whole healthcare system is pretty terrible for the poor, which leads to over prescription as a cheaper alternative to better interventions (eg surgery/proper pain clinics).

The ridiculous private nature of the system means patients can shop around to find a lax doctor. The pharma industry is allowed to market drugs on tv.

This article is very interesting about the complexity of the American problem https://www.vox.com/platform/amp/policy-and-politics/2018/8/6/17649036/fda-fentanyl-opioid-epidemic-drug-legalization

I'd expect we'd get a result more like Portugal. This article explains how Portugal reduced its heroin addicts from 100 000 to 25 000

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2018/10/portugal-opioid

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mik82 10:22 Sat
In reply to John Kelly:

The problem in America is that large numbers of people became addicted due to inappropriate promotion of strong opioids for pain management by pharmaceutical companies, and doctors working with them. These people then take their chances with illegal supplies once no longer able to get prescriptions, with predictable results.

What Dan Arkle is talking about is giving pharmaceutical heroin to addicts to reduce deaths through varying strength and contamination of street heroin.

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Eric9Points 10:26 Sat
In reply to mik82:

It is also due to medical insurance companies being unwilling to authorise the use of more expensive drugs for the treatment of pain.

It really is a screwed up system.

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Jon Stewart 10:31 Sat
In reply to John Kelly:

> How do you avoid the large number of opiate deaths seen in America

By prescribing in patient's, rather than the drug company's interests. 

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Dan Arkle 11:05 Sat
In reply to mik82:

Thanks. I couldn't seem to put my words in a line before my morning coffee! 

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John Kelly 11:13 Sat
In reply to Dan Arkle:

Interesting article on the Portugese experience

I'm very much in favour of complete decriminalization but the recent American experience made me question how how that work.

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John Kelly 11:15 Sat
In reply to mik82:

Thanks mike

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John Kelly 11:17 Sat
In reply to Eric9Points:

> It is also due to medical insurance companies being unwilling to authorise the use of more expensive drugs for the treatment of pain.

? What drugs are you thinking about. 

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TobyA 11:25 Sat
In reply to Jon Stewart:

From the US experience, I don't think the difference was too clear to many otherwise honest doctors trying to do the best for their patients, at least when Oxy and the like were first being sold.

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Dan Arkle 12:12 Sat
In reply to TobyA:

True, its the whole system that's the problem. 

It hasn't happened in the UK in the same way. An nhs patient goes to their local doctor, explains their problems and hopefully gets a reasonable treatment for them.  An American patient sees a painkiller advert on TV and goes to the doctor to get a prescription for it. If he doesn't oblige, they go to a different doctor. If he tries to wean them off it, they then get it on the black market. 

Obviously thats a bit of a generalisation. And I'm happy to believe that even many in the drug companies didn't realise what the consequences would be. 

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Dr.S at work 14:24 Sat
In reply to John Kelly:

Maybe stuff like pregabalin?

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John Kelly 15:17 Sat
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Maybe stuff like pregabalin?

Maybe, 10x cost of oxycodon but lots of common side effects and ineffective for back pain (this is Google info happy to be corrected). I don't think there are that many pain control drugs out there with anything like the effectiveness of ' asprins', paracetamol and opiods 

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Dr.S at work 15:32 Sat
In reply to John Kelly:

Depends on the type of pain you are talking about - just an example of a more expensive analgesic*  which has some utility for chronic pain.

*hypoalgesic, for any real pedants out there.

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wintertree 16:03 Sat
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> The pharma industry is allowed to market drugs on tv.

20 years later and I still remember the first advert I saw with the strapline “Ask your doctor to proscribe...”

Sheer madness.

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In reply to The Wild Scallion:

Did you see all those Tory MPs running for the door when they heard the chimes from the cocaine van this afternoon?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eGpBaVnU4rE

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Dr.S at work 18:08 Sat
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Would have to be an ice cream lorry for that lot! 

Interesting question from the hon & learned lady.

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In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Interesting question from the hon & learned lady.

I'm sure it was but I never got to hear it.  When the Tories walked out Sky talked over her and then cut away to some English MPs blethering to a reporter outside the chamber.   Absolutely shocking disrespect.

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Pedro50 18:19 Sat
In reply to wintertree:

> > The pharma industry is allowed to market drugs on tv.

> 20 years later and I still remember the first advert I saw with the strapline “Ask your doctor to proscribe...”

> Sheer madness.

A sensible response by any responsible doctor!

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Dr.S at work 18:34 Sat
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

Ah, I was watching the live stream - in essence “ if the PM does not sign the letter asking for an extension, would the speaker sign the letter if directed to do so by a Scottish court”

answer

”the speaker would follow legal direction, or the direction of the house”

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Tommyfatlad 11:29 Wed
In reply to Jon Stewart:

interesting to hear on the news this morning that its been put to parliament that a look in to drug reform has been proposed with emphasis on making possession of small quantities of even class A drugs either a minor offence or even not an offence at all ……. 

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