UKH

Yeah, I know it's a bit long odds but I rather wonder whether a certain Mr N Farage is overestimating his pulling power and popularity:

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/brexit/nigel-farage-and-us-allies-raise-brex...

Banging on about Jewish conspiracy theories (he's not squeamish) and explicitly marshalling loony US support for Brexit may not go down so well as he hopes, even in the Home Counties (or wherever the Tory heartlands are nowadays.)

  In reply to your question the other day: as of 17.10 Friday the answer is three such threads in the top ten (counting the Boris is PM thread as one) . At one stage on Sunday or Monday it was 5.

Nick, can I ask you a personal question. Are you really enjoying what's happening to the UK and its Parliamentary system right now? So many replies you give on these forums suggest that you do. It's doubly sad to me because I remember you, always, as a nice, old level-headed friend.

  No, you're completely failing to understand me. I don't agree with your analysis of what is happening to the UK but nor do I think that what is happening is good. I get no pleasure from it. I am very concerned. And I am no fan of most of the new cabinet but nor do I feel the need to joining in the group slanging competition. It adds nothing.

  But I also think that the hard line remainers appear utterly incurious or misguided as to the drivers behind the brexit vote and utterly in ignorance or denial of the threat to democracy that other people see from the EU, but feel entitled to endlessly abuse brexiteers in general and in particular. I think that their behavior has been conceited, bigoted and unpleasant. I think they have demeaned the debate both in general and on UKC. That has made me extremely angry and that anger is expressed in a little pleasure at their current discomfiture. Forgive me if I'm human.

  That small pleasure doesn't in any way reflect my view on the seriousness of our situation nor outweigh it.

  You asked the other night if people realised how angry and upset remainers are. Of course we do, there is an endless stream of mainly crap threads expressing it. It's not the reasoned arguments for remain, or the concept of remain that I object to. It's the ghastly misplaced self righteousness of many remainers.   Do you realise how angry the other side is and do you understand why?

Does this spell the end for Nigel? Boris is going to exit the EU, do or die. Nige has nothing left to do.

Perhaps the gravy train is finally drying up. Perhaps if Trump deems he'd make a good ambassador to the US, this is a route to pursue that role. Perhaps he's still trying to maintain some sort of relevance. Perhaps there are right wingers in the US with spare cash that Nige can hoover up.

Never a dull moment.

It does have a certain soap-opera entertainment value.  I predict that viewing figures for PMQs will soar.

Is 'the other side' a single homogeneous entity? You know it isn't.

You might want to point that out to some of your fellow remainers.

He's not going after the home counties, he's going after the disaffected northern working class brexit vote.

Whatever Johnson may have planned, it won't be leaving with no deal on October 31st, because that would sink the Tories for at least a couple of decades, and it won't be cake because that's not on offer. 

There will be massive anger from those who have been conned into believing their problems were about to be solved by escaping the evil clutches of the Fourth Reich, and they will be a useful tool in the next stage of the corporate takeover of UK governance. 

And they are not altogether averse to Trump... I've heard plenty of admiring comments like "at least he gets things done" and "one things for sure, Trump wouldn't let Merkel dictate to us the way May does" from brexiters here in the North East. 

Sad times.

Yes, v sad, when one realises that Merkel hasn't 'dictated to us' in any way whatever.

Quite.

You spend three years advocating for this shit. It happens. You then say you don't like it. And then blame those who've been trying to explain to you why it's so f*cking dangerous. 

   Wrong on almost every count and you have no idea why I might say that.

   You really need to start listening,reading and thinking instead of howling abuse. You are the classic example of the incuriousity of the hard core remainers. It's not possible to debate with you because you remain stubbornly uninterested in anything other than your narrow minded and frankly ignorant view of the issues.

How about expressing 'the issues' ('the drivers behind the Brexit vote' as you see them), clearly, in a few sentences? It would help a lot for us to able to debate this sensibly. Because we've got nothing so far from you. Just a vague sense of gripe.

And I do not expect you to come back spouting false nonsense about lack of sovereignty.

  Gordon, I've done it before, at length. Nobody is listening. I'm no longer going to waste time with the people on here who aren't interested. I just feel that their bubble needs bursting from time to time. I have plenty of friends (often remainers) who are interested. I'd happily discuss them with you but it is pointless on here.

    There are perfectly reasonable and sensible arguments about sovereignty and the democratic deficit. Obviously there are reasonable counter arguments but  don't mock  the former as "false nonsense" just because you disagree with them.

  I decided last year to do some reading around the subject of why people voted brexit. Amongst other things I recommend Eatwell and Goodwin "Nationalism Populism, the revolt against liberal democracy", David Runciman "How democracy ends", Goodhart "The British Dream"  and "The Road to Somewhere". If I had to pick one it would be the latter.

   All of them are written by basically left of centre and probably remainer academics/journalists. They wouldn't claim to know all the answers and I wouldn't claim to agree with everything they say. But what they provide is that basis to have an informed and nuanced conversation. They pretty much all argue that to dismiss the brexit vote as xenophobic is to miss the point. It is about attachment to identity as defined by place, family and community, and to conservative (small c) values.  And it is abut a political system that refuses to recognise these values. The concept of "anywheres" v "somewheres" is not one that think I've ever seen anyone on UKC demonstrate awareness of, let alone be prepared to discuss it.

 I've just been listening to Jonathan Pie, a self described leftie (regarded, amazingly,by some on the left as alt right) driven nuts by the refusal of the left to seriously question why people disagree with them. Perhaps a few more lefties should listen to him.

Well, thank you for that ...

'It is about attachment to identity as defined by place, family and community, and to conservative (small c) values.'

Well, gosh. Can't you see that on the other side people can be attached to the very same values, plus some larger cultural spheres? Can't you see that, without disagreeing with you, many (most?) English people are attached to family, local community, England, the United Kingdom, and Europe, in ever-widening spheres? I see myself as European as I am British as I am English. Plus (at an artistic level) a 'citizen of the world'. No minor point that, btw.

PS. I'm a great fan of Jonathan Pie. A brilliant, very ironic comedian. Absolutely lacerating. (I suspect you may sometimes miss some of his irony, because it is so extreme and so well disguised.)

  Gordon, I gave you a one sentence slice of a 300 page book. Might I suggest that you read it before you start arguing with it? Briefly, I think his reply would be that the educated middle classes have a mobile identity based on education, career, skills and status. Of course they may also have geographical attachments but those, as you acknowledge, are likely to be be more multilayered but less deep than is likely for the “Somewhere”.

Did mean to be insulting? 🤔

His single biggest aim is to encourage informed and open debate and he thinks that it is the left (“my side”) which is suppressing this, not least through it’s substitution of argument with abuse.

Yes, the truth is we have an ABSOLUTELY LOUSY EDUCATION SYSTEM. I think we can at least be agreed on that. All the huge and serious problems that face us now stem directly from that fact, I believe. Our political system, bolstered by an extraordinary, extreme right-wing gutter press, now actually seems to be wanting to keep the electorate dumb and indoctrinated. E.g. The Sun, two days ago, which had the headline (with no sense of irony whatever, but actually gloating in it): 'The Night of the Blond Knives'. 

PS. Not at all sure what you're saying about Jonathan Pie (particularly your typo-wrecked? meaningless sentence 'Did mean to be insulting?'), but I think you're agreeing with me.

No correct. The evidence is in all your posts. 

Amazingly you repeatedly claim others are ignorant of brexit issues, shout "abuse" when tbe same claim is made of you, and then lump all remainders as "lefties".

“Did you mean to be insulting ?” What you wrote came over as extremely patronising.

Did you mean “one may miss....”?

https://amp.ft.com/content/708d5bee-aefa-11e9-8030-530adfa879c2

I assume you will now condemn brexit in the same terms as remaining? Undemocratic, no-sovereign influence etc etc. Actual, I don't of course, because you are just spinning a lie

If any brexiteers are listening, they could try reading this explanation of both the WA and the alternatives

https://twitter.com/nick_gutteridge/status/1154450103794425857?s=19

This is all about the backstop and the backstop is not the problem.

Both M Francois and D Raab have now said that the ERG would have voted against the WA even if the backstop wouldn't have been present. And also Labour voted against the WA for other reasons than not liking the backstop.

For the ERG the problem is that accepting the WA means accepting that the EU can enforce the sequencing of negotiations and thereby that there will be difficult trade-offs in the future relationship as well.

For Labour the problem is that the conservatives are in government.