UKH

Has anyone converted their savings into gold ? What are the logistics ?

Supposing that you had a few kg of gold nuggets where the devil would you keep them ??

In reply to LeeWood:

I've got a gold St Christopher medal (never worn). Kept a previous one in a wallet which was stolen when I carelessly left the wallet in a cafe WC (so much for divine protection?).

In reply to LeeWood:

https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-coins/1-ounce-krugerrand/1oz-gold-krug...

Bury them, obviously 

In reply to Siward:

Don't forget a map with an 'X' to mark the spot

In reply to LeeWood:

If you don't want to keep them in a safe at home, then there are many third-party secure storage options (e.g. https://www.royalmint.com/invest/secure-storage/new-vault-storage/.) Of course, you have to pay for those.

In reply to LeeWood:

Are you expecting the end of capitalism or society ? Assuming you are looking for a safe harbour for your savings and the amounts are less than 80,000 gbp you'd get assurance and interest in a UK bank account. Or do you expect that bonds will be sold in favour of gold and the price will rise accordingly? 

In reply to mutt:

Gold is a very plausible investment, and would certainly have done better than 80k in a UK bank account over the last ten years. See e.g. https://www.bullionbypost.co.uk/gold-price/10-year-gold-price-chart/

In reply to LeeWood:

Or buy a gold ETF if you want exposure to the asset class but aren't concerned about the fiancial system collapsing.

In reply to LeeWood:

Surely you'd just keep it with all your other gold?

In reply to Max factor:

That was the start of my thought train - banks collapsing. Hopefully the damage won't cross the Atlantic.

However, it's worth reflection from time to time - which ways to invest without relying on banks ? The problem finally is that we want solutions which facilitate trade ie. a vintage car stored in a garage is a fine thing but ...

In reply to LeeWood:

Surely if banks collapse (along with society one would assume) gold wont really hold any sort of value as its not much use in a world gone mad... 

In reply to LeeWood:

Get the whole family fitted out with a new set of gnashers?

In reply to LeeWood: serious answer : a relative of mine doesn’t completely trust banks and so has gold  stores in two safes . A small amount in one that is relatively easy to find , with various documents that would be sacrificed should they be robbed . The other is very well hidden and very difficult to access and is er ……not do empty .  Not without its downsides but possible . 

In reply to LeeWood:

As Garethza points out, if a significant number of banks collapse, it really won't matter how well you hedge your investments. 

The price of pretty much every investment will collapse.

The whole financial system is dominated by institutions investing on leverage. Once one asset class tanks, they get margin called left, right and centre and everything drops.

Gold isn't always the safe haven that people think it is.

In reply to LeeWood:

How would you sell them?

There are lots of high street jewellers & pawn shops that will sell you gold coins or jewellery. However, you'll pay a premium on purchase and on the sale.

E.g. For buying a ring, you'll be paying extra for the workmanship. For a coin there will be a premium for the type and / or date of the coin. If you had lumps of gold, without an assay mark, its scrap gold, so the price would fluctuate. Plus the markup the shop would charge. For selling you'd have to negotiate with jewellers and pawn shop type places, so probably wouldn't get a good deal.

If you went with a more mainstream source, such as Royal Mint, you'd still pay a premium on the buy and sell side. And they would still effectively be a bank.

But, if you take up drug dealing, gold coins and bars are quite handy. Universally valuable. Also, you can bury them in a field and if you go to jail, unlike notes, you don't have to worry about them changing the design of the note.

A more lucrative option might be to invest in bog roll and pasta, then hope for another pandemic.

In reply to dread-i:

The boring things are where the ££££ is.. 

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Isn't it more that cash in the UK in the last 10 years has been a very rubbish investment?  

In reply to LeeWood:

If this is your concern you'd be better off buying land. 

In reply to MG:

That is also true.

In reply to LeeWood:

Experience has shown that if the banks collapse the best investment is in selected bank shares.

In reply to Garethza:

Yes, you should be investing in tinned peaches and shotguns

In reply to Garethza:

I'm not so sure! From my extensive research watching the Walking Dead and The Last of Us, and comparing the American survivors to the comparatively poor results shown by British survivors in 28 Days/Weeks Later, it seems to me what you want for the apocalypse is access to large amounts of firearms and even larger amounts of ammo. Not only can you shoot zombies/fungus infected humans with your guns, but you can hunt, defend your gold stash from marauders, and even protect your family from desperation-driven cannibal cults. But ultimately in the apocalypse, who is going to want gold? They're going to want guns and ammo! That's your currency. If you've filled you cellar and attic with Branch Davidian levels of hunting rifles, hand guns and boxes and boxes of bullets, you're going to be the king of Post-Apocalysiaville! You'll be able to demand tribute in whatever form you want - first born sons to enslave and work your fields, virgins to staff your hareem, the last supplies of penicillin so you don't get "the infection"! You've got to think big! A few bars of gold aren't going to turn you into Lord Humungous (Mad Max 2 for those who aren't sure https://twitter.com/tidakmungkinku/status/1347177958557896709?t=slcTuZMfz4N... ) or any other self-respecting post-apocalyptic warlord.. :⁠-⁠)

A better solution would be to hole up and let maggots deal with the zombies. By far the most practical approach, but doesn't make good tv. (When dealing with zombie maggots, you can just squish them with a good pair of boots.). That's why my cellar is full of doc martins of all sizes. That's where the real money will be, post apocalypse.

In reply to dread-i:

Wouldn’t you be left fighting skeletons like Jason and the Argonauts then?  A cricket bat would be handy in those circumstances. 

In reply to LeeWood:

Yes.

What are the logistics ?

I bought a big tin of gold spray paint (the fella at B&Q suggested a pot of paint and some brushes - as if - I'm no mug) and sprayed all of my savings gold.  The conversion took about twenty minutes.  Full disclosure: I only had about 40 euros worth of coins and I did two coats as they looked a bit shonky after only one coat.   Obviously you will need to consider drying time in your calculations. 

This was two weeks ago but by my calculations I am already up by 3000%.  I've buried them at the bottom of the garden, next to Rex, and I was planning on leaving them there until after the great collapse (obviously I will be fully brewstered by then) but I was talking to a fella at the allotment yesterday who said I could probably double that if I put it into Bitcoin in his sillicon valley bank.

Get on board, mate.

In reply to LeeWood:

I've been preparing for the apocalypse by saving bottle caps.

In reply to Max factor:

A pair of vintage shotguns would be killing two birds... As long as you didn't drop them in the river.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

I can now only think of Del Boy clay pigeon shooting. 

In reply to ExiledScot:

Not "Lock Stock and Two Smoking Barrels"?

In reply to LeeWood:

Gold teeth. Although I have had the fillings replaced with gold first. Don't want too look too blingy too quickly.

In reply to Pete Pozman:

Obviously that was literally more related to antique weapons..  it's just that del boy scene sticks in my head.

As for the op, land first, more than a couple of days walk from any city, a few hundred metres above sea level, modestly fertile and  a ton of barbed wire, high calibre rifle and endless ammo. I'd swap the gold for their weight in plant seeds and water filters... think I'm drifting into usa prepper zone here. 

In reply to Wainers44:

But could such ostentation be a setup for murder if the economy got too desperate ??

In reply to ExiledScot:

Agreed - land. Probably why Bill Gate has been buying up US farmland.

But I'll try to avoid the arms and barbed wire. I would count on the general public ignorance (or incapacity ?) on - just how to benefit from from a ploughed field, or even dig up potatoes

In reply to LeeWood:

I just had a new kitchen and had a bullion drawer installed next to the cutlery.

In reply to Lankyman:

Unless the divine providence was for the benefit of the thief

In reply to Morty:

You fool... you should have bought some bitcoin and sprayed them gold, then Rex would've really be  minted. Missed opportunity now.

In reply to Stob Dearg:

Interesting you should mention cutlery - which is usually inox. I think collecting all metals is good for investment - esp those which don't perish.

Magnets are online as the newest goldmine :

https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/energy/2023/03/10/high-tech-magnets...

( there is a paywall   )

In reply to TobyA:

You've obviously given this a worrying amount of consideration!

In reply to LeeWood:

Just buy loads of alcohol and pain killers, these will be in high demand in any post break down society and can be used in a  bartering system.

Other items that might be useful for trade: basic medicines like antiseptics, binoculars (to spot the zombies/cannibals before they see you).

Or invest in learning an old fashioned trade like a cobbler, leatherwork.

In reply to Dave Garnett:

Watched the final episode of The Last of Us last night while making my packed lunch for today! And I am a Walking Dead completist even with the latter seasons being pretty rubbish. 

I saw 28 Days Later at the cinema when it came out - it's Britishness I found really quite disturbing - the scene as they go up the M6 and see Manchester burning in the distance! Spooky. Although I saw it in Helsinki, so the mood was considerably lightened right at the end when the fighter pilot over flying the UK looking for survivors speaks in Finnish for no adequately explained reason!  

In reply to RX-78:

I think you want to go for a more immediately required trade. Getting shoes resoled isn't going to be many people's first priority when the zombie apocalypse comes.

In reply to Stuart Williams:

I was watching one of those  Netflix zombie shows and people were constantly getting surprised by zombies despite their noise and i assume they must smell real bad, so maybe a market for a zombie detector.

In reply to Rob Parsons:

Hahahaha, it's all about how much you zoom in though, isn't it? The 10 year graph doesn't look so bad, the 20 year one looks positively juicy.... but zoom just a little bit further out and suddenly gold spent a quarter of a _century_ doing absolutely nothing!

By all means, invest in gold for all sorts of reasons, but absolutely do not invest in it in the belief that it is some sort of ultra-safe haven for your money - it is nothing like a deposit account or a US treasury note.

In reply to LeeWood:

Not seen it mentioned (apologies if it has) but it's quite possible to buy gold and never take possession of it. 

Having said that, some people just like to have it. My dad used to keep Krugerrands in his shotgun cabinet!

In reply to henwardian:

It’s even worse than that… as far as I can see the graph is the nominal rather than the real price, ie it’s not been adjusted for inflation. (Correct me if I’m wrong on this but I can’t see any indication it is the real price.) If you’d have held gold in that quarter of a century you mention, you’d have lost about half your money. 

The OP is an anti-vaxxer and conspiracy nut. For some reason gold is part of the package, those guys love it. I have no idea why but I can guess. 

In reply to LeeWood:

Wouldn’t it be more cost effective to invest in a good metal detector instead?

In reply to seankenny:

By which I presume you insinuate that I believe fairytales.

I follow geopolitical events which drive and are driven by inequality. Wherever you find concentrations of wealth, there also you will find unjust societal impacts on the proletariat, either in their own country or 'offshored' in some way. 'Conspiracy' is interchangeable with 'collusion', but whatever name you give - it always leaves and exposes a trail of profiteering.

So you can take it how you like - the motive to profit or the profit to motivate.

In reply to LeeWood:

By which I mean you dislike complexity and search for obvious solutions. 

And yet you fall for right wing conspiracy nuts. 

Salads are best made with vegetables, fruits and nuts.

In reply to Max factor:

…and a tin opener, presumably 😉

In reply to Hovercraft:

Isn't that what the shotgun is for?

In reply to seankenny:

Only sometimes. Other times conspiracy theorists seem to take Occam's razor, look at it dismissively, shout loudly to no one in particular "look at my voluptuous hipster beard! I treat it with various very expensive beard oils that Alex Jones assured me will both make me more attractive to the ladies and make it impossible for globalists like Bill Gates to put his 5G, nanonbot mind control base stations in my beard (the beard oil makes them slide out you see)! Get your ratty razor away from my manly Proud Boy beard!" and then chuck the razor in the bin.

In reply to TobyA:

I reckon even in the cases where the reasoning is highly convoluted, it’s still serving the function of giving a sense of certainty in the face of complex and uncertain circumstances. Ultimately your joke example is still orders of magnitude less complex than the reality of geopolitical events.

Perhaps it’s fair to say that the sorts of examples you’re thinking of seek to reduce the complex to the merely complicated, which can look similar at a glance. 

Edit: I should add that the above was a general musing on the topic rather than a comment about anyone on here in particular. 

In reply to henwardian:

The nice thing about gold is that you could have and hold. Your other examples are under the control of a system which could still go wrong and zero your credit. I've heard it said that this is impossible for crypto currencies - could they be a better investment ?

In reply to LeeWood:

That's fine if you like holding lumps of yellowish metal. Not convinced it's great if you want a return on (or even return of) the value required to get hold of it.

In reply to LeeWood:

Crypto doesn't work so well in an apocolyptic world of limited/zero electricity supply (no internet/computers etc) and right now needs an off ramp into the conventional banking system to convert into fiat to spend easily

In reply to LeeWood:

One thing no one has mentioned yet is gold is totally shit for the environment. Gold as a commodity is mad as it is dug up at huge environmental cost using absolutely loads of really nasty chemicals and almost straight away buried again in bank vaults/conspiracy nuts underground bunkers.  

I respect that all mineral extraction has environmental impacts but at least you get somthing useful at the end!

I would just blow all your cash on hookers and drugs, last days of Rome and all that.

In reply to TobyA:

What you need is the gear to refill bullet casings. My FiL has such things, as well as several guns (which I've used a few times on the range).

The issue for me is getting to him from my current location...slim chance. Perhaps via boat down the west coast. Course, his rural house may be over-run by desperate humans having fled the cities. I think my best bet is to stay low in our flat (third and top floor, double door entry system) and eat porridge for a few months. The attic would be a hiding place from human intruders.

In reply to LeeWood:

Really? Have you thought through what would happen if “the system” broke like you think it can? If things like food and energy stop being traded - because who is going to buy and sell when “the system” is destroying all your money - then good luck swapping your gold for anything useful, unless you’ve found someone who can eat metal or has gold-powered central heating.

Of course you’ve “heard it said”. That’s because you spend too much time on the Idionet, that part of the online world where the credulous hang out and the unscrupulous come to feed on them. 

In reply to ebdon:

Good point !

All good for reflection thanks. The discussion confirms my belief that there is no substitute for investing in useful items - tools, materials or guns ! It's just a case of identifying them. A shipment of garden spades to trade with on a rainy day ?!

In reply to LeeWood:

What exactly are you expecting? In your view what would precipitate needing all this stuff, how likely is it to occur and what are your information sources behind these suppositions? 
 

In reply to ebdon:

Right. And in the same way, if you're in a city and you hear that nuclear weapons are on the way, the best plan (mine) is either to drive to the city centre if there's time or failing that, stand on your roof

Please don't think I'm kidding

In reply to LeeWood:

Last week, in a fit of pique, I invested $50 in gold. Being a novice, I didn't notice X20 leverage was selected by default on the CFD. One of my mates pointed out what a financially risky oversight this was! Panicking, I pulled the plug and sold at a modest $10 dollar profit. Then the international banking system started to collapse and there was a rush on gold! My mate sent me the below text to apologise. I think he's taking the piss...

In reply to seankenny:

I'm expecting life to carry on as it has done - stock markets bear and bull, history repeats itself

There's no great question for me of 'all this stuff' because I own virtually zero assets. When opportunities arise, I like to know that my purchases are worthwhile and I speculate if they are good investments for the future - or not when they break /down

In reply to Stuart Williams:

It's religion, basically.

In reply to deepsoup:

Would society be better off purged of all trace of religion ?

In reply to LeeWood:

Not even Stalin managed that. How many are you willing to kill for your secular crusade?

In reply to LeeWood:

Uh, I feel like this might be a waste of time but I'll give it a shot anyway:

If the US government goes to zero and all the most valuable companies in the world go to zero, how could that have possibly happened? The only even vaguely plausible answer is essentially the destruction of all society. If you want to plan for that, you are planning for living in a post-apocalyptic hellscape; gold is useless when what you need are food, water, weapons, shelter and a group of people that will protect you and whom you will protect. Which means joining a cult. And probably picking a cult that is in a more sparsely populated and historically less warfarey part of the world than the UK... I'm not going to recommend that you actually do this, but it is the sort of completely extreme action that is necessitated if you really do believe in some sort of human reset event.

Going by what Seankenny said, please, please, please start to question some of your beliefs. If you are sitting there believing some "facts" that all the experts in the field say are wrong and 99% of other people say are wrong, you are almost certainly wrong. There is a wealth of information on the internet about how and why people get sucked into conspiracy theories and why it feels comforting to be part of them and how it so difficult to live in a world that has such complexity, where every issue seems like shade of grey without ever being black and white and how this leads people to take rigid and simplistic positions which they then refuse to budge on.

Have a look into the dunning-kruger effect and confirmation bias to see why you should try to always question most strongly the things you believe most fervently.

In reply to henwardian:

To add some colour for Lee. I visited Afghanistan in the time of the first Taliban government. It was mind-bogglingly f%^*ed - ruins everywhere, no tarmac roads left, bridges with gaping holes, loads of amputees thanks to fighting and landmines. Incredible poverty. But… there was still a government, of sorts. You could still buy all sorts of things, stay in a hotel, go to a restaurant. You could exchange your pounds or dollars for Afghanis, sure credit cards didn’t work and no airline flew there, but getting around was fine, just uncomfortable. Now this period was better than the early to mid 1990s when Afghanistan was suffering a civil war and society was even more broken, but even then… you could still buy stuff. People still used money, how else do you think the commanders paid their fighters?

So what Lee is saying is, how can I prepare for an outcome that is much much worse than Afghanistan after twenty years of war? 

Hopefully now it is obvious how stupid this line of thinking is.

In reply to hokkyokusei:

It seems (for UK trading, at least), buying coins is a good way to go for small-ish amounts - no VAT on transactions for coins of the realm. 

I don't know if, when using legit traders, one can just use any old scrap of gold, or if they only deal with marked bars, but it looks like you can get ingots in fairly small sizes if you don't have ~£45,000 for a whole kilo bar. Easier to spread among several hidey-holes - though there'd doubtless be something very satisfying about having a single big bar.

In reply to henwardian :

Your time was not wasted - you got 4 likes !

You put words into my mouth - I have made no assumption about the state of society which would justify a bid for complete autonomy. There are numerous other situations - levels of chaos or restriction in which it is advantageous to have some autonomy.

Not v long ago, March 2020, the locals were coming to me during lockdown conditions - to buy veg or eggs. I took money from them but would have been ready to work out barter value had they lacked .

Another scenario which has occurred for some (and certainly is implemented in China) is that gov structures are completely functional, but that you are locked out of your bank account for disobedience - social credit systems. Resilience originates from creating alternatives.

And frankly you (and others) make me laugh decrypting my character and judgements as you do. I have never made personal attacks on you, or generalised - to assume your individual intentions, motives or knowledge. I have never insinuated that you should not even be voicing your ideas on a forum which is open to all who abide by the given posting rules.

Every topic I speak about is discussed, analysed and researched by countless others, who manage to do it in the public arena with out the impatience, intolerance and profanity which you do. Your dialogue on the other hand suggests that minority opinions should not be held, or at least never be voiced.

Having thus responded, I restate my interest and tolerance for your dialogue, even if frustrating. My perspective is continually adapting and expanding as a result of ongoing social interactions.

Cordialemente ! 

In reply to LeeWood:

Why bother hoarding gold. When society breaks down, I’ll just come and take yours. 

In reply to LeeWood:

Oh, good to know! I have those things turned off so I never see the likes and dislikes.

Fair enough.

Ah, I didn't realise you lived in China, that is quite a different situation. Honestly, I don't know a huge amount about how the authorities there lock people away from their wealth but you are going to want to get it offshore to have any kind of the resilience you are looking at. You asked about crypto before, absolutely do not dabble in that in China, it's illegal there are you will run a big risk of getting royally shafted.

Honestly, I don't have a lot to work with, I didn't read the whole thread (too lazy), I just saw what Seankenny said and the angle you're looking at with gold and crypto and implied suspicion and dislike of governments and their control is very much in line with other people with whom I have spoken (irl, recently). It is a mindset that has several common (and in my view self-destructive) traits. I feel pain on your behalf and the behalf of others who think like this because I want to make you understand the flaws in that way of thinking, but sadly I just don't have the tools to do so, even if I was speaking to you in person, it wouldn't much change my odds of succeeding I think.

Sorry if you feel you are under attack, I guess that is inevitable when someone is disagreeing strongly with some of your strongly-held beliefs. Believe it or not, I actually wanted to help.

I wasn't insinuating that you should not voice your ideas. I don't know what I said that gave that impression.

Oh, I always like to the throw the odd profanity into an otherwise erudite conversation, keeps me entertained, if nothing else. I'm a believer in using swear words when they are funny or when emphasis is needed or to punctuate something dry and boring but obviously not too frequently, you are free to disagree with that of course

Also, it was my turn to laugh when you called UKC a "patience, tolerant, non-profane" place

Good point about minority opinions. Tricky one that - supress minority opinions and you stifle creativity and discovery but allow them undue weight and crazy fringe ideas pollute the sweet waters of the river of knowledge. There are plenty of things which are not clean-cut, where there are different groups of thought and a minority opinion is fine, if you have approached with an open mind, done a good amount of research and are prepared to change your beliefs in the light of new evidence (yeah, right, like anyone has the time or motivation for that! But it can't hurt to have an ideal to reach for). But where I start to get frustrated is when people have reached absurd conclusions using a metric craptonne of confirmation bias and their conclusions are either demonstrably false or rely on all the complex systems of government or science covering up some truth that they don't want to let out. Sure, there are examples of conspiracy theories turning out to be true but they are very few and far between, especially when it comes to open institutions like those in the "west".

good to hear!