UKH

A Web chat between hunters has been released that shows how they want and try to carry on hunting and avoiding the law. The police do act as a tax funded security for fox hunters 

What could this mean for the illegal hunting that continues across the country?

Even an ex police chief informing how to avoid criminal charges and appear not to breaking the law.  It throws doubt on any case he has been involved in. An obvious liar and no regard for the law. 

https://www.huntsabs.org.uk/mass-criminality-in-hunting-community-revealed-...

I hope they fall off their horses and break their necks.

I thought that was the Legal profession's job?

It is pretty difficult to justify having terriermen involved.  The drag hunt that I'm familiar with goes to some lengths to minimise the chances of a fox, or anything else, being accidentally flushed and the hounds are trained only to follow a human scent.  There's no question of anyone interfering with any earth that they do come across.

This is really damning evidence. I've written to George Eustice MP, Secretary of State for Environment, Food and Rural Affairs using a tweaked template the hunt sabs association provided. Not sure whether he's the best person to email, but felt the need to do something.

What sort of excuses for human beings are giving dislikes on this subject.

The dislikes on Trevers 19.33 comment are perfectly understandable. But for my self imposed rule of not disliking anything, I would have joined in. 

Not really related, but to highlight how poorly prosecuted it is...

The local ex-huntsman (Scottish borders) was found guilty of malpractice in court, digging out a set or something like that. 

He was fined £250 or something daft. Him and his father had a meal with champagne in the local pub that night...absolute bell-end. 

Fox hunting is pure evil and the world would be better off without the sort of subhumans who indulge in such a depraved and sadistic "sport".

You're entitled to that opinion. 

If I had to define "pure evil" I would probably pick something different.

To be clear, I don't approve of foxhunting at all but I'm much more concerned about sports where fellow human beings are ritually put through pain and even death in the name of entertainment and financial gain.

Thanks for posting, the transcripts of the meetings make for interesting reading. 

In response to a question about whether it was risky to be filming everything that goes on during the hunt: 

"I mean, you’ve got to be very careful about who’s saying what, even if you’re not recording that person, that person may be talking behind your back and you must be very careful that you’ve got your camera on the whole time, bearing I mind that it’s not a good thing to edit your videos. What you don’t want to be doing is filming them after you’ve finished laying your trail and filming something that you then don’t want to be shown to anybody so the answer is yes, everybody with cameras and videos and recording has got to be very careful about what they're recording. Make sure that we only record all the legal things that we do because of course we only do legal things. So that’s all we can really record so yes the answer is to be very careful everybody."

Masterclass in shady doublespeak there.

In 2003 or so, after a campaign of intimidation against my brother and I, including vandalism against our cars, smashing a living room window, burglary and robbery, including £2000 worth of outdoor gear, a local f*ckwit, with 15 charges against him, pled guilty. He did a plea bargain, admitted to a few, got community service, paid no money back, and I got nothing back. The same day he walked out of court and I saw the scumbag walking past the court chugging from a bottle of Buckfast.

You do know WWF isn’t real right?

I suspected as much, largely from the fact that no -one has ever died during a WWf bout.

Fox hunting is a very unpleasant thing, I do not believe any sentient being could view it otherwise. However, it has always puzzled me that it appears that it generates greater passion than so many injustices across the world, whether it is the slaughter of whales, rhinos or elephants or the lack of clean water or the death of millions due to disease or starvation. Why is this?

For the record, foxes are a creature that gives me an amazing buzz whether it is glimpse from a train or sitting in my garden.

I think it's a good question which could be applied to other issues (e.g. human rights abuses at home/abroad). I think there's a sense that we're more outraged by things which are closer to home. The senseless slaughter of whales, elephants and rhinos is just as abhorrent, but it doesn't feel like something one can do anything about, whereas evils happening in one's own country rouse anger more easily. Perhaps there's some unconscious guilt response in there, that we feel responsible in some way for allowing such things to happen here?

They are beautiful creatures, as another current thread will attest to

There must be some fans of illegal fox hunting on here. They can't be that approving of it as they haven't the balls to come on here saying the agree with killing foxes for fun. 

I think part of it is the senselessness. Animal slaughter for financial gain is clearly just as horrific but at least it's possible to empathise with the motives of the perpetrators, however misguided they may appear. With fox hunting, as well as most 'game' hunting, I find I'm simply at a loss as to what benefit could possibly be gained over a similar pursuit that doesn't end in murder. It can only be the enjoyment of killing, that's why it can be referred to as "pure evil" even though there are plenty of evil things happening in the world that have much greater consequences.

It's a class issue as well as one of animal welfare.. No-one kicks up a fuss about working class lads going ratting with terriers or the types  who go lamping ( apart from landowners, in the case of the latter)

I don't approve of killing anything for fun and I wouldn't take pleasure  in seeing anyone killed unnecessarily in a riding accident whether they were chasing foxes or not.

Ultimately, I have a lot more concern for human life than that of any animal, in any circumstance. Otherwise i wouldn't eat meat.

I find it curious that there is a lot of support for the idea of fox hunting, from people who have no connection with it. Fox hunting, may once have been an inefficient method of pest control. But, to me it seems more about the gentry getting together and having a social event. Why people support this is beyond me. Its not just a class thing, it crosses social boundaries.

For ratting, I get the impression that these dog sports are linked loosely to dog fighting. As for lamping, don't they shoot the rabbit?

Thanks for the link. Nothing has changed since Oscar said "the unspeakable in full pursuit the uneatable" 

".......... it seems more about the gentry getting together .............Its not just a class thing, it crosses social boundaries."

That's got me scratching my head a bit.....

Would happily press the 'off-switch' on any fox hunters. Get in the f*cking bin. 

Yes.  Although they also produce rather more mixed emotions when they kill all your hens.

I was just kidding, but actually Owen Hart died in the ring... like really did though.

My social media feeds are full of friends callig this shit out.

E

I don't think you really mean that, but vent away.

In what sense?

Was that a stunt gone wrong, though?

Having a brother in law who is a farmer, he would vehmently disagree with the disneyification of the fox as a nice animial. It is basically vermin which destroys hens.From a farming perspective( and other animals like hens) it is not a nice animal.Just because it is red with a nice bushy tail and looks good and has been glorified does not mean it is a pleasant animal.

We maybe should look at it with less rosey spectacles.

Oh and I shoud add the brother -in law and his Dad have been organic farming and looking after their land free from chemical setc for something like 40 years.His Dad was organic etc before it became popular.Beatutiful spot.Very progressive.

Yes, I think it is partly social.  It's a good excuse for rural horsey types to get together and have some fun.  It's now a vestigial ritual, mostly detached from its original purpose, but it provides some spectacle and a chance to demonstrate some riding skills in a semi-competitive way.  Having the hounds along adds to the fun.  It might not be everyone's idea of a fun Sunday morning, but neither is morris dancing or bell ringing, and they might well say the same about dragging a bouldering pad up to the Plantation.   

Are they actually organised into hunts?, with outfits & follower? Its easier to address an issue when its visible & organised rather than nebulous and ad-hoc.

*Is this what country folk do to pass the time?? 

I was walking on Kentmere a few years ago and witnessed a fox hunt. There was no doubt about it, I could see the fox being chased across the valley. 

The other week there were crowds and lots of hounds on Farleton Knott near J 36 of the M6. No idea whether they were hunting foxes or it was something else but I have no doubt there are fox hunts all over the place and the plod don't give a stuff. 

Could have been trail hounds, popular in Cumbria but no hunting involved.

Badly explained. I'll try again...

Back in the day, the lord of the manor would get together with a bunch of worthies and chase a fox. It was an exclusive pastime. Many of the commoners didn't own a horse and those that did, owned the wrong sort of horse.

These days, there are many people who own horses and can possibly participate. There are also a large and vocal hunt supporters groups. What I was referring to is that the hunt supporters groups cross social boundaries.

Polling carried out by Ipsos MORI1 commissioned by the League Against Cruel Sports, found opposition to the legalisation of ‘blood sports’ – the hunting of foxes, hare and deer – remains high across Great Britain, with 85% of the public in support of keeping the ban on fox hunting, including 81% of people living in rural areas.

https://www.league.org.uk/news/opposition-to-fox-hunting-remains-at-an-all-...

Which means that some 15% of the population support it. By definition, this 15% would include people from multiple social classes. 

To add more weight to that claim:

Of those who expressed a view, 89 per cent of Labour voters, 82 per cent of Lib Dem supporters, 71 per cent of Brexit Party supporters, and 68 per cent of Conservatives agreed. (That fox hunting should be banned.)

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/home-news/fox-hunting-tory-election-c...

"But as a class issue, it ranks behind private schooling at number two".

I never expected to be in the position of quoting this particular writer in support of my opinions, but that's George Monbiot writing in 2004.

And even more so when recue charities release them on your dorrstep!

No its an animal. If you put lots of easy to catch prey together than,unless you protect them, it will kill them and, as with many predators, may go into overkill mode since that is often advantageous (just look at us and sugary food).

Fox hunting isnt overly efficient in removing them though especially since, at least for some of the mounted packs as opposed to foot, the interest is more in the hunting than pest control and hence they actually want a minimum number of foxes to hunt.

Its not helped by the massive increase in gamebird numbers which help sustain a higher than normal level of predators (despite the attempts to wipe them out).

Farmers use other methods as fox hunting is not an efficient method of controlling/killing  them.

You can google that.

What's the sport where "fellow human beings are ritually put through pain and even death in the name of entertainment and financial gain" that you object to?

You seemed to have missed my point by quite a margin:

It isn't the cuteness, or otherwise, of the creatures being killed.

It isn't the need, or otherwise, for population control.

It isn't the value, or otherwise, of any animal products gained.

It's the enjoyment apparently gained purely from another animal's demise. That to me, beyond any considerations of the above, is the surest indication of evil.

ermm yes I know hence why I said "overly efficient in removing them".

The thing that always annoys me about the pro-hunting lot is that the justification they cite for it are always "controlling fox numbers, tradition, supporting rural jobs" etc all of which are valid, but they never cite the one, largest factor... The Elephant in the room... 

They f*cking love it.

Getting together with all their other horse riding mates, dressing up in outfits, little tot of something strong outside the pub then off we go, charging across the countryside leaping fences and tooting horns then yes! Charge after a fox, watch as it tires and then look in in ecstasy at a job done well as a pack of hounds tear the fox limb from limb and we all go back to the pub to slap thighs tell stories and get tiddly on port.  What a day!

Frankly, I think anyone who enjoys that as a leisure activity is pretty f*cking sick.  But I'd have more respect for them if they just admitted that they've got a wobbly moral compass, than harping on about the reasons they normally do.

Glad it's illegal, should never have taken so long.

Well originally my objection was to boxing  which I have long been an opponent of but now there is MMA to consider , as well as the spectre of bareknuckle fighting lurking in the background with people attempting to gain legal status for it (they may have been successful for all I know). Anyway we shouldn't dwell on this for too long otherwise people will start using the W word.

Not comparable. The fox doesn't choose to be involved, get paid or stand a chance.

I think your 2 examples have less of a public profile too, and they're harder to spot than an organised hunt full of people dressed in red on horses and blowing horns with dogs running along with them. I'm not aware of regional terrier-ing groups out to look for rats like there are hunts, too, organisationally they're quite different.

If it's about 'getting rid of rats' or 'shooting animals for food' via lamping, I suppose at least they have a purpose, compared to people setting dogs on an animal for fun. If asked about ratting, I'd want another less painful option to be tried first than using terriers, but if everything else had been tried first and the rats were a problem, I'm presuming it's a quick death - but it's not something I can imagine is pleasant. 

If the people hunting are a clean shot I can't see anything wrong with lamping, not compared to how quite a lot of pigs in the UK are housed, or chickens too. 

I don't see this is the right place to continue that line of debate: my initial comment  was just  a reaction to someone wishing injury and death to a fellow human being.

In any comparison between the treatment of animals and  the treatment of humans, the latter will always  more important to me, regardless of the circumstances.

And I suppose the fact that foxes have got more protection under the law than rats or rabbits is a factor.

I’ve no problem with consenting, fully informed adults doing what they like with each other. As long as they’re not hurting other people, animals or the environment.

If people want to go ahead and punch each other for sport, and other people want to pay to watch it so be it. I’d imagine it’s one of the oldest sports in the world.

Live and let live I say. After all a sport where people, particularly elite pros, are often seriously hurt or killed? Sounds a lot like climbing to me...

Animals have no say in their participation. The Fox didn’t choose to be part of the hunt.

And further, there's not even any vague notion of it being 'sporting'. There's no risk whatsoever to the hunter, apart from the aforementioned possibility of a broken neck. Hell, they don't even do the dirty work themselves, prefering to allow dogs to do it (and brutalising them in the process).

At least in big game hunting in Africa a hunter occasionally gets trampled by an elephant or mauled by a lion. Noone can say it's not fair when that happens.

Remember when they used to say the animal being hunted loved the "thrill of the chase" and then a study looked at the brain chemicals of an animal being pursued and that, contrary to enjoying the chase, it was f*cking terrified?

I know.  It came as a surprise to us all.  Personally, I'd have loads of fun being chased by a pack of dogs who were looking to tear me limb from limb...

Happy to discuss boxing elsewhere. 

The fox feels nothing.. it's made of string

youtube.com/watch?v=IDhJcg4_jNE&

Could be worse. You could be stabbed. Getting torn apart by a pack of dogs is a doddle. At least it gets you out in the open air.

Depends which part of me the dogs tear off first!

I suspect there's a similar type of bollocks being talked when people refer to fish feeling no pain.

Indeed.  All absolute horseshit based on decades old supposition. 

Lamping these days is part of organised crime. They film several dogs chasing hare or deer and the organise “ film evenings” where they bet on which dog catch’s the animal. The police seem fairly keen to stop this and do respond if you report cars and lights in field at night. 
The other day as I out on my bike one of the local farmers was blocking the road to stop a 4 wheel drive and confronting the driver accusing him of casing the area.

Regarding the lack of choice that  animals have in such sports I wonder if many people consider how cruel horse racing is. The horse has no say in that.

And yet a loose horse will often continue on over the jumps, even though there is no rider there encouraging or forcing  it to do so.

You would think that, given the choice you refer to, it would refuse at the first opportunity or escape sideways.

Maybe you've never witnessed this phenomenon .

Indeed.  Horse have been domesticated via selective breeding over millennia to race, and are cared for by people who have a deep love of horses.  Yes it's a dangerous sport and injured horse often have to be destroyed, but from experience I can tell you their connections will be beside themselves with grief.

There's no comparison with a wild fox.

The odds of escape might not be that bad - happened to see some hunting in the Lake District.  The hounds ran up a fell, milled about at the top and waited for the labouring huntsmen to catch up before running straight back down.  I think this was repeated before they lolloped out of view.  Meanwhile I could see the fox on the fellside sheltering next to a rock, looking at all this going on and when the hounds disappeared it shot off at great speed in the opposite direction.       

A hell of a lot more foxes get shot nowadays as there’s no pressure to keep them around for the hunt, nor is there the selective nature of hunting with hounds whereby the older & weaker foxes got dealt with but those in better condition escaped. 
Now, it’s a quick scan with the thermal to spot your target, on with the night vision & fox down. 

More examples of violence by hunt supporters:

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8830603/Shocking-moment-tractor-dr...

https://www.facebook.com/SCoastHuntSabs/posts/1489123371295090

The very worst of humanity.

The very same farmers who then go and RIP a fox. Limb from limb.

I find it very strange the level of support  farmers get on here.

There job is to maximize land usage for their own profit.

There not poor. They work normally hard and wow the places they live.

Feel free not to eat anything produced by a farmer then. You just sound jealous (and undoubtedly live in some urban dump).
As for not working hard, you’re utterly deluded; the hours farmers work, especially during lambing or harvest are insanely long. 

I can’t say for sure that all farmers round here support the local hunts. One I used cycle with a few years ago wouldn’t let them cross his land. There are lots of born and bred country folk who loath fox hunting, yes they they are not against the killing of them. But they are against the hunting culture.

"There not poor. " No, they're not all poor, but they're not all Range Rover drivers either.

A  2017 Newcastle University study of farming in Less Favoured Areas showed the average residual  income of a two person farm operated by farmer and spouse was £21000. 

That's for the couple, not each.

(LFA s are basically hill farming country: Peak, Pennines, Lakes etc)

All predators are not very pleasant as by definition they kill things to survive. Do you think that we should be easier on big game hunters?

What’s wrong with killing your own food?

How's that calculated - income after rent/mortgage, bills, food, and tax, or income after all that lot plus buying things for the business (which, since they own, are assets)?  And, in the context of this thread, could include horses for fox hunting

I know a lot of farmers, and can only think of one who hunts; the vast majority of those I know of who ride with the local hunt aren’t farmers (I don’t go out with the hunt, it’s not my thing). 

If you're really interested  do the same as I did and look it up. If you have a challenge to the methodology,  take it up with Newcastle University.

And in the context of this thread, LFA s are not prime foxhunting country so your speculation about  hunting horse ownership among Pennine hill farmers  is probably way off the mark. As is a lot of speculation.

Hill Farming Income Newcastle University 2016/17 is the source. just type that in and see what happens.

(not being awkward but there looks to be over 100 characters in the whole URL)

It looks like the figure I quoted is not one actually calculated as a  recorded fact but an amount ascribed to the calculations as appropriate for a farmer and his spouse's unpaid labour.

Maybe some of us actually know some farmers?

You don't have a link to it?

Gets me: 

Which one am I after?

None of those. Keep trying.

Just found a more recent one but I doubt it's worth delving into any more than the 2017 version.

I'm really not being awakward but I've never learned how to do links and it's a monstrously long URL. 

Genuinely sorry your  setup doesn't take you straight there, but if you shop around similar type surveys you will find  figures which more or less back this up, bearing in mind that any national "average" for farming income will include poultry farming which is very profitable  and  will skew any figures to a very significant degree.

The basic truth is that , whatever popular opinion is about there being "no poor farmers", it's not really true. 20 k a year between a couple doesnt put you on the poverty line but you could do as well working at Lidl ( and there is absolutely no shame to that)

Fullfact has some simple figures but bear in mind that LFA farmers will be at the thin end of any average you are given.

Is not residual income what you have left when you have paid your out goings. If so 20 grand is not what you would have left if you worked at lidl.

Maybe residual was the wrong word. The figures in the survey were probably gross, so not.

And  in any case, as i said earlier, the figures might not be an actual average of real income but a figure determined by the survey to be an appropriate amount to denote the annual income of a hill farmer and spouse.

How do you know they are gross. Also I suspect that accommodation, fuel, clothing, heating and so on could be all put down as expenses. So it’s not so Lidl as I suggested above.

I'm not sure what the issue is here. 

On a thread about foxhunting soneone posts  along the lines of "there are no poor farmers".

I counter with an estimate of average hill farmers income from a survey i found online which suggested a figure of around £20,00 a year.

Now it seems important to some whether the figure is gross or net.

Why not find the survey where all the fine details are considered?

Or let's accept that hill farmers don't generally own stables of horses and ride round in Bentaygas, and get back to talking about fox hunting.

The issue is that 20 grand a year disposable income is not poor or working at Lidl. Which is something you added to the discussion.

Yes let’s get back to fox hunting.

The survey I came across didn't refer to it as"disposable income"

The term was

"unpaid labour of principal farmer and spouse".

A more recent one moves it up to about £22, 500 p.'a, 

And I agree that £ 11, 000  a year is not "poor" . But when people say "There are no poor farmers", that's not the sort of money they have in mind.

To get back to fox hunting, the farmers earning that sort of money are not likely to be the ones supporting hunting with hounds and horses.

You can just copy and post it - I doubt it's longer than some of the posts on here!

https://www.ncl.ac.uk/media/wwwnclacuk/naturalenvironmentalsciencesschoolof...

But we ought to move away from that. 

Just been looking at how to prevent trespass by hunts ( in the unlikely event that they will bother my little smallholding)

You brought it up! 

No I didn't. 

16.13. Sputnick expressed surprise that farmers had any support on UKC  ( not that foxhunting had any support on UKC). He then went on to trot out the old cliche about "no poor farmers" so I countered that.

I am not the person who moved the discussion away from foxhunting to farmers. Read back and you will see.

Pitch fork is usually best !  If not 

Running towards them shouting as loud as you can with serious vengeance should make them bolt .  Used to get it all the time , blatant trespass is nothing to those cretinous rats in red coats!