UKH

So having seen how most Tory MPs have a large Union flag flying in their homes, they have now decided that Union flags must be flown on all government buildings every day. 

I assume that Oliver Dowden has a mate who manufactures flags. It seems like another cynical ploy to please the jingoistic wing of the party. 

If it's to give mates business, then I think we are safe to assume that we don't need to worry about it as it will never happen!

Patriotism- what a terrible thing!

We are, after all, citizens of nowhere, or children of the Earth.

There are a great many things with which to be angry with the Conservative party about but a moderate level of patriotism or the right to some kind of national identity, which like it or not is fundamental to societal cohesion, ranks right at the bottom of my list of aggrievances. Unless you everything to devolve into smaller and smaller tribes.

It is as it's a distraction to more serious issues, look at the lovely flag rather than covid deaths etc. anyway why is flag waving necessary to patriotism, why the overt signalling? To me overt patriotism like this tends to go with more intolerence of criticism of government, which usually gets mixed up with country, whether in the US, China or Russia, e.g . Trump seized the imagery of the US flag linking him to it so that criticism of trump was criticism of the US, that's what the Tory party is trying here, I think anyway.

As we're now sadly on our own as a country. We had better believe in ourselves. That's what I think, at least.

I don't care. I've never looked at a government building without a Union flag and felt the desire to write to the Daily Heil and complain. And I've never seen the Union flag flying and felt the need to wet the bed about the fascists under it. It's a flag, get over it. 

"I keep your picture

Upon the wall

It hides a nasty stain that's lying there

So don't you ask me

To give it back

I know you know it doesn't mean that much to me

I'm not in love

No, no

It's because"

10cc

At least there will be plenty of flags around to drape over the coffins.

It just seems like a ploy dreamed up in a focus group. I don't believe it will make us more united or more proud as a nation. If I'm supporting a British player or team I might wave a flag but this policy could be the start of flags in every classroom and pledging allegiance which I certainly would not be comfortable with.

Don't you think the transparency of the governments panic over whether they'll preside over the end of the UK, and their clutching at straws like this to try and avoid it, is rather pathetic though?

Do you reckon some big union jack on a council building in Derbyshire or Devon, or even Dumfriesshire, in the next few weeks is going to turn the tide on Scottish nationalism?

I have said all along that Bozo wants Scotland gone. This seems to me like another bit of his ploy to push us to independence. It is a reminder of who owns us.

We never used to feel the need to wave the flag. Unless it was little children waving paper flags for some royal visit.

We always used to laugh at Americans getting all upset when someone 'disrespected' their flag.

Flag-waving nationalism isn't something the British used to do.

But things have changed in recent years.

What's that saying about patriotism and scoundrels?

Patriotism in the sense of a mutual pride in joint achievement is fine.  Good even.

Patriotism in the sense thinking of yourself as better than others, not so much.  This flag waving by the government feels very like this kind, and worse still in fact trying to make the "others" anyone who doesn't support the current government.  

For me, the thought of it conjures up depressing images of Germany in the 1930s.  

I don't honestly think the ruling elite care much about anything; they've proved that with their cronyism and by pandering to the lowest common denominator - the brexit contingency. Now they're waving the flag and I'm that demoralised by the last decade of Conservative government I'm thinking - at least they're finally nailing their colours to the wall.

It's more likely to inflame it, no?

You, a Scot, are as much at home in London as you are in Edinburgh, Cardiff or Belfast and own as much of London as anyone else in our country. 

I don't go much for flagshagging but if you're going to complain about a UK politician having the logo hanging up behind him the maybe start taking the piss out of the Scottish flagshaggers and Bravehearts too.

Who owns or who you are part of? If the St George’s cross was to be flown from U.K. government buildings all of the time then I could see the argument, but not the Union flag on Union buildings.

If you want to see some proper flag flying go to Sweden - they do flags well there.

What has forcing people to fly the flag got to do with patriotism? It achieves nothing other than fanning the flames of a cultural war the stories have now adopted as their only policy. 

I would disagree. I would have gone to visit those other countries. 

I don't like the saltire waving either. It has become a symbol of a political position rather than anything to do with you nationality.

The Union flag has become synonymous with England, rather than the UK. And us being forced to fly it is saying that England rules us. We are meant to be a union of equals (which we clearly aren't).

The Union flag is MEANT to symbolise a union of equals. It's not though. It's associated with England, and England currently owns us. We are not a union of equals, we are controlled by them. We cannot vote out the governing party which England chooses, so we are controlled by them

The tide has already turned Toby. Scexit is a minority view again.

As for flying flags, the Scottish government seem desperate to fly the Saltire on anything they own so they seem to think it makes a difference. It's not to my taste but if Nicola can wave the Saltire from her buildings then it's only fair Boris gets to wave the Union Jack from his.

Frankly speaking the flagshaggers can get on with it. Leave them to their petty squabbles. I just want to make Scotland and the UK better places to live in and hope they both get stuffed at the next election so we can get on and make it happen. An end to lies, back stabbing, sleaze and incompetence and a focus on recovering from Covid and generally making our country better.

Scotland is not ruled by England. Every Scot has the same say in the running of the UK as anyone else in our country. We actually have more power over our own affairs than an Englishman or woman because we have a devolved parliament.

If you can't see that you need to get out a bit more.

What has the CocaCola logo got to do with a sugary carbonated beverage?

The UK flag has remained unchanged since 1801 

It is my flag too.

Attitudes have ebbed and flowed and still do today (at hyper speed) as is apparent from the difference of opinion seen here.

It's not associated with England by me. Is that what the SNP keep telling you?

Owned? Now you're just being silly.

But we don't though. Scotland votes pretty much as a block, yet we never get who we vote for. So we are ruled by whomever England votes for. We can't change it at all. Wales and NI have the same problem. England rules the UK. 

The devolved parliament helps a bit, but its powers are limited and the cons are keen to reduce the powers. 

I am by no means all out for SNP, I have voted for every left wing party over the years. If you show people worldwide the UK flag and ask them what country it represents, most will say England. 

They don't want social cohesion. Everything they do is with an eye to stoking the culture war that delivered brexit and a path to power for Johnson.

Jk

Maybe, but by "England", they generally mean UK, or at least Britain.  It's the same as many English speakers referring to "Holland" meaning the entire country when it is in fact only one part of the Netherlands.

Absolutely agree! To be honest I'm not sure there's much Johnson can do that won't inflame it more. 

You’ve not answered my question about what this new rule is meant to achieve? Did you see this?

https://twitter.com/jamesowild/status/1374052717841223683?s=21

Interesting. So how do you explain the European flag that continues to be hung outside Holyrood, does this signify continual  rule or influence from our European neighbors ?

I know why you say that but it's not really true. And the strength of the SNP is a relatively new thing. 

The UK government reflects Scottish voting about half the time. 

We had a Labour government for 13 years at the turn of the century and a big majority of Scottish MPs were Labour at the time.

The SNP seemed determined not to use the additional powers given to it by the Smith commission and as far as I remember have never asked for anything more. 

Fifty years ago Scotland was solidly Tory by the way.

I'd say most foreigners struggle with the structure of the British Isles, or uk & NI, Great Britain etc.. the media does occasionally too. So it's little wonder they get it wrong.

But the same can be said of nordic and Scandinavian, if outsiders get it wrong it's forgiven, not so much for residents! 

Some bellend Tory MP gave the DG of the BBC a grilling recently on how many Union Flag images were in the annual report. It was in equal parts hilarious and chilling. 

Tyler links to it above.

What I want to know is where was that MPs union jack? Not a sign of one the unpatriotic git.

Agreed. It seems to average out into the realms of really naff. These endless comical and sinister provocations from the government that's meant to be uniting the country after Brexit are already seriously seriously played out. I'm not sure I can hack another four years.

Population of Scotland 5.454m; of UK 66.65m - so 8.2%

Total MPs in Westminster 650.  8.2% of 650 = 53 MPs on fair share basis

Actual Scottish MPs in Westminster 59.

You are over-represented and you have your own parliament and substantial devolution.

True proportional representation would be better for most people - the large swathes where their vote has no impact at all.

Presumably, it was to fit the narrative that the BBC is full of lefty luvvies.

If he really wanted to let the Scots know who owns them, you'll be having the England flag flying above every Scottish building.

2021 - the Union Flag
Friday 3rd May 2024 - the cross of St George.

Indeed, proportional representation is what is needed, I am fully behind that. It would force far more coalitions which make much more collaborative government. It would make the whole atmosphere far less divided. Which is why the cons will never go for it, division suits them nicely

In the last 42 years, we have twice had the government we voted for. England has moved to hard right politics. It's not the same Tory party as it used to be and is moving in a scary direction. And we can't stop it! 

I think better thought of as an alloy rather than a Union of equally weighted states - it was not set up in those terms.

the people are equal, not the nations, which are subsumed into the greater state.

I won’t ever agree with your politics but I’d always credited you as quite intelligent. Either your history or arithmetic are way off.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elections_in_Scotland

At this stage I'm pretty convinced it's just culture war trolling. Tory MP says something ridiculous/OTT about flags, leftie people take the piss and suddenly social media is full of performatively outraged right wingers and the narrative is 'why does the left hate Britain' or some other such confected nonsense.

Can you explain what you mean by "solidly Tory"?:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Politics_of_Scotland

What do you mean by this? 42 years takes us back to 1979 - so we have the thatcher/major years, then 3 Labour GE wins, then the coalition, then the more recent Tory years.

so 3 times rather than 2, 13 years of Labour which Scotland voted for - so 30% of the time.

if you equally randomly go back to 1974, then that’s another Labour government - so 18 years from 47 or 38%.

You  could add a little more time to that if the SNP had not voted against the Labour govt in 1979, triggering an early election and ushering Thatcher into power against the wishes of the majority of Scots.

If you looked at my home constituency, you would find its degree of success in getting the government if voted for us identical to Scotland until the last election.

pretty much. Its just plastic patriotism for those who cant really be arsed to care and so just want to wave a flag and announce anyone who isnt amazed is automatically unpatriotic.

Be good for the flagging economy though.

No I am not .  I have no interest in going to London and there's no way I could afford even a small piece of it.  I would however like to spend time in Paris, Amsterdam, Munich, Berlin and Innsbruck.   I used to feel at home in all those cities far more than I ever felt at home in London.  Until those c*nts stole my EU citizenship.   I want it back.

This Union Jack thing is a straightforward provocation by the Brexiteers. 

Their response to the success of the SNP and a lead for YES in the opinion polls in Scotland is to put up more Union f*cking Jacks in Scotland.  That's a calculated provocation and an attempt to stir up sectarianism by encouraging playing ulster unionist politics and encouraging the nastiest elements of their base just like Trump did.   

The SNP, when they get re-elected, should retaliate by banning the f*cking thing on all buildings owned by the Scottish Government, all Scottish Local Authority buildings, and buildings of agencies funded by the Scottish Government.   First step towards independence is getting rid of the symbols of London rule.  Put up the Saltire and the EU flag instead to show the Brexiteers that we are heading for independence and they can f*ck right off.

To say Scotland was 'solidly Tory' fifty years ago is a strange statement. The 1970  General Election returned 44 Labour and 23 Conservative MP's.

Since 1945 there has only once been a Conservative majority of Conservative MP's in Scotland from the 1955 General Election and a tie of 35 between Conservatives and Labour  in 1951.

Scotland doesn't exactly need any outside help to stir up sectarianism, and it's very convenient for you to blame Westminster for sectarianism in Scotland.

It is a standard tactic of colonial governments and the British government in particular.  They did it in Ireland, they did it in India, they did it all over the middle east and Africa.  They use ethnic/religious divisions and favouring one group over another as a way of increasing their power.  A lot of the ethnic problems in the world are because colonial governments drew borders in inappropriate places, empowered one group over another or transplanted one group into territory previous occupied by the other.

Underrated post.

You could start early and reject the Barnet formula?

London rule; should we list everything that's already devolved? 

It's just a distraction for mps flapping about vaccine deliver. 

If the Tories had signed an s30 when they were asked we would be gone already and there'd be no Barnet formula.   The only reason it is needed is because London sucks the lifeblood out of the rest of the country.

Please don't.   Westminster wants the Scottish Government to be a glorified county council with a strictly controlled budget set by them which can then be blamed for everything.    

Scotland wants Westminster to f*ck off.

Does that include the 1018322 Scots who voted for brexit? Should they f*ck right off?

Should those of us who voted to remain in the EU and wish to remain in the UK f*ck right off too?

Bit rich considering Scotland receives more per capita from the treasury than any region of England or Wales. 

Not this argument again.

I quite like the Union Jack. And the Saltire. And the EU flag. Happy to see all three flown.

I think the problem may be mostly invisible to those who haven't grown up in Scotland, and to a lesser extent those who've grown up surrounded by the establishment side of the sectarian divide.

Flags are just symbols, and in Scotland the Union Jack isn't primarily a symbol of the union, it's the symbol of one of the sects.

If you've grown up seeing a particular flag waved first and foremost by Rangers hooligans, the Orange Order, and the BNP, it's going to hold those connotations for you and they'll be hard to shake.

It'll be even worse in across the Irish Sea, of course. 

You were the one who said London was sucking etc.... not me. 

Ps. Glorified County Council... Scotland has roughly the population of Yorkshire (it is made up of a few CCs though). 

You really are a proud Stopfordian!

So I actually think it is a good thing if it is reclaimed as a unifying symbol. 

I lived opposite the Brazen Head (gorbals) for a bit, that could easily have been across the Irish Sea! 

Sometimes time passes you by. The Unionist Party, (Conservatives) won an overall majority of the vote in 1955... so 70 years now.

I get caught out like this... see a headline 30 years ago and think of the 60s etc.

16 million in all nations voted remain.  We have been told in no uncertain terms to “f*ck right off”.

England hasn't, it's just that the latest Tories have united the right wing vote, while the opposition is fractured across parties and even within the Labour party (and I say that as a member).

Scottish nationalism is a one of the big factors making it difficult to form an effective opposition, so I hope the independence question is settled one way or the other soon. But the current situation suits the Tories, and they are in power.....

I can't say the flag thing bothers me too much, and it is in part a backlash to the Saltire waving north of the border. In my anecdotal experience there was a reaction to that in working class towns, many of which are now Tory.

No, it means the Tories rule you and the rest of us.  The Union flag is from a time when the ruling classes of Great Britain treated the people blow them as cannon fodder and fit to be hanged or transorted for poaching.  It makes me laugh us being expected to feel apologetic for slavery when the industry was run and owned by people many of whom treated ordinary British people very very very badly indeed.

This flag business is perhaps like waking up in 1933 Britain and finding that Oswald Moseley and the BNP are in charge

And why wave the union jack when they were using organisations investing in busenesses employing 17 year old Sri Lankan tutors to help children catch up during the pandemic rather than accredited British tutors.

That is the true meaning of Brexit - cheap underage workers employed by croneys for Tory friends

Yep. I'm not religious and not into football (and my family were from the 'protestant' side ultimately, though only by association). I've no love of either sectarian side, and don't react well to the tricolour waved in crowds, either.

A noble intention, but I can't see it going that way - it'll inevitably be taken as establishment endorsement of their favoured sect, rubbing it in the faces of the other side.

And I think that, with the sectarian groups overlapping with the independence and unionist support to a noticeable degree (unfortunate but probably inevitable), that's probably what it's meant to do.

Yes, I was one of them. I didn't enjoy it either.

The experience will be no better for happening twice.

Flag waving nationalism is  unpleasant whatever the flag. 

Ditto...  a valuable poster who needs to calm down a bit in a very divided political situation.

That's my take on the flag game... an easy win for populism in an increasingly divided UK... more bogus 'them' and 'us'.  

Yes, the Tricolour flying outside Mairies and bars across France is a depressing sight

Can someone remind me who it was who came up with the Union flag ..?

James VI of Scotland

Good god, don't come on here flaunting your sense of proportion!

Jimbo VI, monarch, and enthusiastic driver of this little thing...

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_of_Ulster

The Union Jack has never not been strongly associated with sectarianism.

I don't think dwelling on this stuff is a good thing, but you can't fly that flag in Scotland or Ireland and not have a lot of people have a very negative reaction to it.

The flag itself is not the problem. Scandinavian countries seem to be fairly civilised and have a positive relationship with their flag. The best response to the government's use of the flag would be for more people to fly or wave it to remind the government that it is a symbol that belongs to all of us. 

Hmmmm, at face value no, but I'm not sure the French relationship with nationalism is one we want to be invoking as a reference here.

But that's not what's happening is it. I might not always agree with Tom's 'hardline' interpretation but the Westminster Government's current flag fetish looks very much like more culture war trolling, as of course does much of their campaigning dressed as policy making. They're betting there's another electoral cycle or three in divide and rule. They're probably right but it's no less despicable and damaging for that.

jk

I don't know much about contemporary French identity, is the flag viewed as a provocation by any significant region or group within France? Are there areas like Northern Ireland and Scotland where it's weaponised against a minority (or even a majority in the case of NI towns blighted by tattered rags taped to lamp posts the townsfolk are scared to take down)?

jk

I honestly wish that that was the case. but all the most vocal bands of flag shaggers are driving an exclusionary agenda of one form or another.

A lot of folk in Corsica would see it as a sign of a colonial power.

But it doesn't seem to provoke any reaction in 'mainland' France, often flown alongside the EU & a local flag. Also worth noting that the symbol of being a mayor is a red, white & blue sash which they tend to wear on all formal occassions, eg when officiating at weddings.

But the Tricolour is aesthetically pleasing.

Which is precisely why the more it is flown without those agendas the better,

Nothing comparable, but they've had and still do have their regional independence movements. I think the flag and language (including legislation) was used to spread cultural homogeneity as a national policy.

I think Paul has a point, countries like Spain and Italy also seem to fly the flag a lot.

It was the line about something on the wall hiding a nasty stain that resonated with me.

I know... I just remembered your location as Stockport and the 10cc connection amused me on this thread.

Wow. Your posts really don't do much for the Indy cause or much to dispel the stereotype.

Yes.  I used to think there was an inverse relationship between the density of national flags in a country and the stability of its government, the wealth and health of its people and its sense of cultural self-confidence.

I still do.   

Yes, it's the lack of 'cultural self-confidence', as you put it, that's most telling. It's as if, deep down, the Brexiters know that it's a crappy, economically damaging and (ironically) divisive idea, and think that wrapping themselves in a Union Jack will magically bring unity. 

It is partly because of his sort of thing that I am actually considering voting Conservative in May (my constituency is marginal SNP/Con). I think I could do this safe in the knowledge that we are not going to get a Conservative government (or a coalition involving them), and I am actually on the fence with independence, but I just don't think the time is right to rush into something as potentially far reaching as a second referendum while the dust is still settling on Brexit and covid, so I don't want to see an SNP outright majority. I've never before contemplated voting Conservative and I voted SNP tactically against them and Brexit in the last GE.

I don't think there is a strong correlation. Canadians and Norwegians seem proud to display their flag and they don't strike me as unconfident countries on the edge disintegration.

Climbinpixie hit the nail on the head (as is her habit).... it's culture wall b*llocks, and the left getting wound up by this is playing right into the Tories hands.

I regard myself (reasonably proudly) as both English and British - in that order (even though I had an Italian Granny which makes me a European).

However I have never worried about the flying of either national flag, except for state and other ceremonial occasions. The reason being that those who are the most virulent in their shows of national pride by waving flags and so forth are also those who seem to have the least to have pride in their nation and it's activities - both political and social.

Examples of the above are many, and include every totalitarian regime, plus the USA and numerous other supposedly democratic countries that have something to cover up. "Patriotism is the last refuge" and so forth.

Anyway, I have no need to wave the English or British flags in a vain attempt to show my superiority over other nations. Reason - I'm English and British, so I KNOW I'm superior.

ever been to Norway ? flags everywhere.

One twelfth of the UK population lives in Scotland. I think you'll find that Scotland, at least in the late 20th and 21st centuries - i.e. recent times which affect us the most - has had more than it's fair share of Prime Ministers of the UK. Hence complaining of not having any control is a bit rich.

And who was it that were sent to Ireland that caused a lot of the trouble - SCOTTISH Presbyterians and so forth.

And, conversely, all this flag waving just seems like an acknowledgement that we are no longer superior... We've become a nation of flag-waving dickheads.

Really?  I used to work there regularly and I don't remember seeing them in anyone's office, at passport control at Oslo airport, railway stations, museums, post offices, hotels -certainly not like the States.  I bet there must have been one at Stortingsbygningen  but I don't recall it being obstrusive.

They did certainly sell Norwegian flag ski hats at the airport (and I have one).  When I was skiing at Hemsedal I did ask where I could get a rather more tasteful version like the one my friend was wearing.  He diplomatically explained that they were freely available - I just had to be selected for the Norwegian national team.    

Napapijri use the Norwegian flag on their (rather expensive) hoodies etc but, as they admit, they are Italian, with a Finnish-sounding name and not Norwegian at all.

Maybe there's been a nationalist cultural revolution since I was last there. 

A lot of people in Norway seem to have the national flag on a pole in their front garden. 

My father did the same at our old home in Herts. But his was about the only one in the village, I think. But it didn't somehow seem the same; wasn't quite the Tory propaganda it's been turned into now. It seemed to be about the country, not the politics.

To happen, Scottish independence has to overcome enormous inertia - the UK government and state machinery will always oppose it, and so will most of the media. And the Scottish Parliament's power is only devolved, meaning that it can be taken back or overruled at any point the UK government wishes. (e.g. https://news.stv.tv/politics/uk-government-may-stop-holyrood-bills-from-bec... )

Getting to the point where it can be democratically addressed, in a referendum, is exceptional - and it's very likely that the UK government is going to make it a lot harder soon. That's why "the time isn't right" is an argument you'll often hear from those opposed to independence; for most making it, the time will never be right. There probably just won't be the option of having another referendum a bit later.

I suspect you just weren't looking for them. I remember seeing a lot 15 or so years ago.... I noticed but I didn't read anything into it.

I think they're actually very poor examples.

Norway was torn apart during WW2 with some Norwegians joining their existing government and the royal family in the UK Britain as 'free Norwegians'.  But lots of Norwegians embraced the Nazis under  Quizling and his government with many volunteering (more than any other occupied country) to even join their own divisions in the SS. After the war, the country was utterly divided and rebuilding its unity and image as a liberal, democratic staunch ally of the victors has been ongoing and relentless ever since.  The return of the pre-War flag, the Christmas tree in Trafalgar square as thanks to their wartime friends, the Heroes of Telemark film, the UK and Norwegian royal yachts side by side at Cowes Week are all part of that process. 

Canada is also a country that has to work constantly at unity. The great flag debate in the 1960s was championed by some as a way of demonstrating a break with the past, to promote the birth of a new, forward looking nation that embraced everyone. To a degree it has worked (except perhaps in the eyes of some First Nation activists).

No national flag is without associated issues. They are all the product of some particular circumstance. The Union Jack more so than some. Only an idiot would think that wrapping themselves in it as a way of promoting UK wide national unity was a good idea. It's our history in cloth form and not guaranteed to be a roadmap to our future. It's very survival is going to take a deeper commitment than simple jingoism.

Totally agree

Now I think of it, it's true that some of the posher houses in Montebello have flagpoles.

It's also true that Norway was part of Sweden until 1905, as well as being occupied in WW2, so maybe they haven't been the stable socialist paradise they now seem for all that long.  There's a dark underbelly of the far right in their politics too.  It's just that Norwegians, in my experience, are so rational, sensible, international and polite that it's hard to imagine it.  Even the way they responded to the Anders Breivek terrorist attack was exemplary. 

One twelfth of the U.K. population lives in the Glorious People’s Republic of Yorkshire. Just sayin......

You may be right.  I'm not very impartial when it comes to Norway.  If I'd discovered it a decade earlier than I did, my kids would probably have grown up Norwegian!

There was an interesting thing about this in R4 the other day. The gist was that from a legal viewpoint, questions of the future of the union are "ultra vires" (beyond the scope of the legal framework of devolution), and Scotland entered into an agreement with Westminster for devolved powers, part of which clearly stated that the future of the union is not a devolved issue, and that Scotland can ask for a referendum on this one (as last time). However it cannot demand one. Also, there is a legal measure agreed by both sides that Scotland cannot challenge a Westminster decision on an ultra vires issue such as the future of the union, as it is not a devolved issue.

This is what Scotland signed up to. 

Example of what? I'm assuming just just come to the thread and not read the whole conversation I was having? I do that sometimes.

As I said upthread, that's not what the Tories are trying to do, they are using it for their own agenda, and unfortunately it is a tactic that has served them well recently.

Does it have to survive? If it's not what people in the home countries want we become new countries and life goes on.

And so it should. It is a massive decision which should not be undertaken lightly and needs to have a solid majority behind it. I think I would support a referendum once opinion polls suggested a steady 60%+ majority. I would then find it very hard to decide which way to vote.

Sure. Devolution was set up by the unionist parties largely in the hope of reducing the demand for independence, and they didn't give Scotland the right to decide its own future at a time of its choosing.

Another legally binding independence referendum may never happen. Any chance to have one needs to be seized by those who do want it; those opposed to it just need to delay and add more barriers until it's pretty much impossible.

I don't think closing off the democratic route to independence is likely to work out very well, but I do think it's quite likely to happen.

There's no way the UK will let a referendum happen if there's anything like 60% support for independence in the polls.

Absolutely not. But if you are the party who's constitution is to defend the union or a politician who claims to support such an ideal, then linking yourself to the 'union jack' is a counterproductive thing to do.

If you genuinely want to promote a United Kingdom, where each constituent part and citizen felt able to contribute and be valued, you would not only revolutionise the political structures, but would do what Canada did and come up with a new, inclusive union flag.

And National Anthem. 

Thanks, really interesting about Norway.

It strikes me that almost every country in Europe had to rebuild physically after WW2, but with the exception of the UK they also had to either rebuild national unity or invent a mythology everyone could buy into to move forward as a modern nation.

We're still stuck in the wartime mentality unfortunately, and the Tories and brexiteers have exploited this with their 'enemies of the people', 'we won' and now claiming that anyone not proudly wearing union jack underpants is somehow insulting the dead of both world wars and is a traitor.

We're utterly fractured and polarised as a society. I just don't see how we move on from this.

Got mine ordered!

https://www.pinterest.co.uk/pin/153263193548093172/

I fear that only years of suffering a lower standard of living, a more fractured society, and having our noses rubbed in it as an inferior, backward nation, will have to take place before we 'move on'. But what we'd move on to, I've no idea, having thrown away so much. Of course we will rejoin Europe, but in a much diminished role.

Not the modern Tory party!

They are about the next election... they're right wing careerist, 2 terms will suit most of them. I doubt they give a shit what happens after that.

Well,  post WW2 to be pernickety.  That's when there was the clearest divergence between those who wanted to build a better Britain within the framework of our true realities and those who thought we could return to the 1930s. Split between on one hand, those who realised that although we were a victor, we had been usurped by the USA as the major world power and things could never be the same, versus the 'Churchillians' who could only visualise our return to the pre-war days.

We were the largest recipient of Marshall Aid, but we didn't spend it on the birth of a new Britain, we pissed it all away scrabbling to rebuild the Empire and getting our feet under the so called 'top table'. And this retrospective nostalgic wet dream is being mis-sold to the British public again. We're even sending an aircraft carrier back 'east of Suez'. To do what?

FFS, we desperately need a politician to take us forward. Going this way lead us to near ruin in the 70s and will do so again before long.

I can't help thinking that a humiliating 'defeat' is probably the only thing that will result in us rebuilding and moving on.

I think it's the same everywhere. Look at France and the yellow jacket riots, a weekly event pre covid. Merkel, she's toast politically as Germany is now massively divided and her party has taken a kicking.

In the relatively near future the west will have to decide if we let China have Taiwan when it invades there. We are powerless really, it's just posturing, as China controls the west in all but name. Look at the sudden panic over a ship blocking trade to Asia. And that's ignoring china's financial influence in most nations. 

Sadly, even a humiliating defeat doesn't guarantee a country moves on.  In fact, it could be argued that Germany after WW2 is one of very few losers that have truly won the peace and successfully moved on. There has to be the right circumstances and actions on the part of both winners and losers for it to be successful. 

Twenty years ago, most historians believed all the lessons had been successfully learnt about this process in post war Europe, including the value of aid and positive actions to nullify the political influence of the main protagonist ideologies, etc. But you only have to look at the disaster the Americans made of transferring  the concept of 'de-nazification' to post war Iraq to see their optimism was unfounded. The De-Ba'ath-fication process in Iraq directly lead to the sudden and spectacular rise in IS and the subsequent shambles.

So if it's ok with you, I might hold back on the idea of humiliating defeat being our salvation.

Changing electoral prospects for Merkel/CDU/CSU is hardly "massively divided". The prospect of electoral failure is good, it keeps democracy healthy.

Germany appears massively more united than the "United" Kingdom.

What is the German fault line equivalent to Brexit?
What is the German equivalent of Irish, Welsh, Scottish movements to leave the UK?
Germany's East-West divide equivalent of the North-South divide has a much better excuse (40 years of communism).
I get the impression Germany is divided far less by class. I doubt their Bundesrat is stuffed full of people who have been to their Eton*.

*see the recent Sunday Times story

What are fault lines that make you think Germany is massively divided?

Norway has about 16 flag days where public buildings and private people who have a flagpole are more or less required to fly the Norwegian flag. It is taken pretty seriously and there are rules when to raise and lower the flag - at 08:00 in summer and 09:00 in winter, down at sunset or 21:00 at the latest. Outside of flag days it is pretty unusual to see the Norwegian flag flying, although it's not illegal to fly it outside a private property.

Edit: Just did a quick count, the only Norwegian flag to be seen is on a lifeboat moored outside. Otherwise only corporate flags.

Whether they will actually invade is a moot point, but your premise remains valid - China is poised to be the dominant world power within 'x' years and will need access to the world's resources that suit them and on the terms they dictate. 

Britain has to decide exactly how this will bring them into conflict with UK interests. This is going to take intense debate and difficult choices. We are in danger of simply continuing to believe that our interests will remain the same as the US interests in the hope that in return, the US will reciprocate. So we build aircraft carriers compatible with their Marine Corps and effectively act as a constituent part of their military machine. If they're unhappy about the Paracel Islands, we send our aircraft carrier to yap that we're not happy either.

But are our interest so inexorably linked?  Is our fear of not being able to deal with a resurgent Russia without the help of the US going to paralyse our choices for ever?

Simultaneously stoking up and denying the Scottish independence movement is working well for the tories, they're likely to continue doing it while ever they can portray themselves as the protectors of the union against a Lab-SNP partnership, Labour's only realistic route to power.

The only way I see Westminster granting another binding referendum is if it's weaponised against Labour, given unstoppable momentum in the period before the Conservatives are forced from power, forever after tarnishing Labour, the party that dissolved the union. It'd be appallingly reckless but we're inured to that by now.

Agreed for now.

jk

There's tensions here and there's even a WEXIT movement in Alberta and Saskatchewan, a concept that's even more deluded than BREXIT, if you can imagine such a thing.  Nevertheless there's Canada flags on every government building and a lot of pride in the flag.  I don't really see the problem in the UK - this is just a part of the faux, conservative generated culture war bollocks designed to distract the electorate from their piss poor governance, corruption, incompetence, catastrophically bad BREXIT deal, tens of thousands of unnecessarily dead people, etc.

Afd gains, the centre ground is disappearing, it's becoming more extreme left and right, with views so radical they can't imagine agreeing. Plus parts of Germany are doing fantastically economically, they've even taken covid bail out money from the eu like France and Italy, the supposedly bigger solvent g20 nations being bailed out at the expense of smaller eu nations. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_2021_German_federal_e...

Where does your idea of the rise of extremism come from?

Are you aware of concepts such as Jamaica, Kenya and traffic light coalitions in German politics? There's no shortage of options for centre ground coalitions.
 

Germany has a federal structure and the Lander have a lot of autonomy with things like pension plans and membership of professional organisations of often being Land-based rather than national. 

From the outside, it always seems impressive that the integration of the East was so comparatively rapid and seamless, but I'm not sure that's how they see it.

That might explain it then, we're all right!

Actually I have been there on the holiday where they all wear national dress.  Many people seem to have a costume for especially for this. 

And the Lab-SNP partnership is so toxic to many English voters it will never happen. So we are stuck.... the only way out I can see is all English opposition parties merging to one party, but given the factionalism from the centre leftwards, that's the stuff of dreams too!

Really? I get the impression loads of English people would be glad to see the back of us?

Didn't you see the - I was taking the Michael.

If England was to have devolved parliaments that covered regions with the average of the populations of Scotland/Wales/NI, then we'd need another 15 regional parliaments. That's an indication of just how under-represented the English are compared to the "celtic" nations.

F*ck sake.  If this was Twitter I'd just block you.

It is toxic to Labour for two reasons.  First, Labour in Scotland hate the SNP more than they hate the Tories because the SNP took all their seats and most of their members.  Second, they won't get a deal with the SNP without signing off on an Indyref and once that happens Scotland will be off and it will be harder for them to beat the Tories.  

I don't think so, the type who used to say that are now happy with Brexit and Boris and co, they won't want to see him tarnished.

It's toxic to English voters because it would put someone who wants to dismantle the UK, and is portrayed rightly or wrongly as anti-English, right at the heart of the UK government.

If Scotland did leave English opposition to the Tories would have to get its act together (collectively), so for me it wouldn't be a disaster, and others in the Labour party feel the same. As we've just established Labour won't get into power with the SNP dominant in Scotland anyway, something has to change.

Oh, I know. But, underlying the levity is a nugget of truth about a quiet sense of pride not needing overt displays of patriotism/nationalism.

Show me where it says any of that in the Edinburgh Agreement.

No, this is what Scotland signed up to.

https://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/20130102230945/http://www.number...

I won't; I'll be very sad to see the end of the union.

The flag stuff has accelerated exponentially since Brexit.  Union jacks are appearing on everything.  They even have a law now that you need planning permission to fly the EU flag in England.

In Scotland the union jack is associated with Rangers and ulster unionist organisations like the orange order.   

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/mar/07/sturgeon-condemns-infuriat...

The Tories are stirring up the tensions that I remember in Glasgow as a child with FTQ / FTP graffiti all over the place.  And they are doing it on purpose.

Not at all, I think this is what people seem to tell themselves up here. I also have a couple of friends with a slightly unhinged obsession with Scottish "Oppression" (WTF??)

Back home people couldn't care less either way or want to keep the union together but are just sick of hearing the SNP banging on about it, especially at the moment for obvious reasons.

Personally I wish they'd just stick it on the backburner for a while.

(I'm English, long term resident in Scotland and Indy sympathetic but not completely sold)

Yes and some Scottish independence supporters have been stocking anti-English feeling, there's a few English kids will remember that too.

You don't have to tell me what the Tories are like, I oppose them, but when it comes to exploiting  nationalism the SNP and their supporters are throwing stones from a glass house

https://blogsmedia.lse.ac.uk/blogs.dir/28/files/2020/01/nicolasturgeonjan20...

That's probably what Boris says to Sturgeon daily. 

Ps. I know you don't like having your viewpoint challenged, because that's not the way snp politics work. 

Nothing to do with the snp ranting near daily about their right to indef2? 

As a long standing member of the SNP who does NOT believe in flag waving I still remember a trip to Germany in the late 60s when a pal and I stayed for a few nights with my mate,s pen pal in Munich. Brian had a Scottish flag on his rucsac .and Helmut,s Mum asked him why. ,Brian explained it was to help in getting lifts((we were hitching). She said "Es tut mir leid Aber Ich hab die Fahne nicht gern. Hitler hat immer gesagt"die Fahne vor alles"

Translated "I'm sorry but I don't like flags. Hitler always said "The flag before everything"

I'venever forgotten this.

Curious things flags, for some countries it remains purely a symbol of their history, national pride, celebration of their independence (norway's case). But then in others it goes a step beyond into pure nationalism, or is hijacked by football hooligans, bnp, edl, ukip etc (uk). 

I would sooner do without them

I’m not convinced, but as you’ve moved here I’ll respect your opinion. When you read the likes of fred99 type comments of “crawling back” and comments on other media outlets I get the impression there’s a significant amount of desire for us to just leave.

I’d dearly love someone to conduct a UK wide poll to garner opinion on the break up of the UK. I think it would be fascinating. 

That's the impression I get from many people round here as well.  There's precious little engagements with the argument either way and people simply continue to do what they've always done; they equate England with the UK and the UK with England.

Now I'm not saying that's a helpful approach, but I don't know how much political capital English politicians will sacrifice on the cause of 'keeping the Union together'. It might play to the southern shires, but I don't see it being something that will help keep the new blue northern constituencies on board.

It is a bit much to hear supporters of the Scottish Nationalist Party complaining about nationalism of all things.

I don't think Nationalism solves anything. The reasons things are massively chaotic right now is because we are seeing unravelling of the post-war consensus on almost everything and we have very little agreement on how to replace it. 

Ed Milliband made a great point a few years back; in the late 90s and 2000s and even the early 2010s it felt like the script was written. We had an idea what the future would hold. And then towards the latter end of the 2010s that went out the window. Nobody has a f*cking clue what will be happening five years or three years or even one year down the line and Covid multiplied that by a million.

We live in a time of profound political uncertainty in the UK. We don't know what our country will look like at the end of this year never mind any further down the line. And that feels deeply difficult to live with for many people. Myself included. I'm not necessarily opposed to Scottish Independence; a nation must have Democratic legitimacy to exist. But I also think that it appeals to a general sense of "I have no idea what's going on but I'd like to take control" and I can understand that. I share the same desire. I don't think Scottish Independence will work out like that but I get it.

The Scottish National (not "Nationalist") Party is not nationalist in the second sense (although a faction of its members are). The name is perhaps unfortunate - I think Sturgeon has suggested as much. Perhaps it would have been better called the Scottish Independence Party.

Maybe modern society, with the Internet at our fingers, have a question that you'd previously have to trek to a library with, now you get instant answers. Folk expect certainty, instant everything. 

The world was just as uncertain in the past, as now. Post War rationing, Korea, suez, Cuba, Vietnam... a small flu pandemic in the 60s, imf bail outs, power back outs, 3 day week, 9/11, London bombings... 

Life is and always was changing. I bet it's the oldies who've coped better psychologically this past year. 

A faction of it's members are, yeah. A big one. And their desires are served by the SNP; that's why they're in. The SNP might not be entirely nationalist but their aims are what the nationalists want (just like how not all Brexiteers by any stretch are mad racists... but the mad racists got what they wanted with Brexit).

Really? Has the UK's stability as a nation, it's international membership of trading blocks, it's aims and attitudes are a country, always felt that fragile? I'm not a child, mate. I remember the 2000s very well. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind that the future of the country in the 90s, 2000s and early 2010s felt vastly more stable and predictable than it has past 2015. And the internet existed then too.

The Internet wasn't really in your pocket, you sat on dial up waiting!

I think we frame the world in whatever era we were a certain age. It's often the way we perceive musical eras, classic films... we become locked in some comfort era. 

If you are old enough to recall the 70s and early 80s you'll know it wasn't exactly stable at all. 

The sort of nationalists you are talking about are not served by the aims of the party, which sees an internationalist, outward looking Scotland.

They want independence, yes, but not much else the SNP talks about.

Driven purely by what they dislike, not what they desire. 

fill your boots:

https://yougov.co.uk/topics/politics/articles-reports/2020/09/07/how-do-eng...

English and Welsh people generally would like Scotland to stay part of the Union, or feel it’s a matter for Scots to decide. Very few want Scotland to leave.

Most English people would be sad if Scotland leaves, the greatest group of people who would be happy would be 20% of English Tory voters - don’t make them happy!

Show off!

But thanks, interesting reading. Pretty much as I’d read elsewhere, the UK will not break up due to Scotland wanting independence. It will be due to English indifference.

Interesting interpretation - most English people being sad if Scotland left is not indifference.

many English people feeling Scotland’s future should be decided by Scots is respect.

So you do want us all to fly flags after all?

I'm not sure how the logic of your argument actually goes. What can the English do to show they are not indifferent? 

Don't mind being challenged but you are basically trolling for a response and on Twitter trolls can be blocked.

Well, one could argue that you're the troll...

There's no thought behind his posts or attempt to engage in a debate.  They are one or two line content-free provocations.  It's about getting people who support Scottish Independence or are in favour of the EU to waste their time replying.   That is the definition of trolling.

Its name is the 'Scottish National Party'.   Tories continually call it the 'Scottish Nationalist Party' to make this puerile 'nationalism' point, just like they continually make false claims about what was agreed in the run up to Indyref 1.  Trump tactics - repeat a lie often enough and if your supporters are thick enough they will start to believe it.

“Less than half of English people (46%) say they want Scotland to remain part of the UK. Most of the rest (34%) have no opinion”

So 80% say stay or leave, they’re not really fussed. And, yes I’m interpreting it differently from how you might do. The thrust of my pint is that it won’t be the Scots fighting for independence which leads to the breakup of the UK, it will be when enough English just can’t be bothered with it.

A basket of fresh fruit?

Sorry, that’s childish of me. But I’m not really fussed now, I’m pretty resolved to how I’ll vote on May 6th, and any indyref if we get one.

Although there is one pretty obvious thing, which is how you vote.

If it's going to be that kind of argument we should take this down the pub.

If that is really the case then I don't think I could vote for independence - it would just be too divisive. I would really only be in favour of a referendum requiring a supermajority anyway.

My round

A song that resonates now as much as it did in Thatcher's Britain... Fly the Flag by SLF:

Gimme a country that's red white and blue
Gimme the British way honest and true
Gimme the chance to be one of the few
Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme

Gimme a nation where people are free
Free to do and free to be
Free to screw you before you screw me

Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme

'Cos I'm alright
I'm alright, Union Jack
Fly the flag

Gimme a Britain that's got back the Great
A race of winners not cramped by the State
And only the helpless get left at the gate
Gimme gimme gimme gimme gimme

'Cos I'm alright
I'm alright, Union Jack
Fly the flag

I'm alright
I'm alright, Union Jack
Fly the flag,
Fly the flag!
Fly the flag!

If only that were possible!

It's only just struck me, are you the poster previously known as Horse?

How would you judge if there was 60% support when we saw the last time the level of support increased substantially in the course of the campaign.  There could easily be 60% support on the day of the vote even if there was only around 50% when the referendum campaign opened.

And if there was a simple majority in a referendum and independence happened would you try to reverse it?

I disagree with the post but as targeted trolling goes that's superb, Sir. If only multiple likes were possible ;p

It’s pretty old, and been said multiple times before. You’ve obviously not been paying attention in class!

Obviously hard to tell, which is why my preference is for a supermajority and I doubt I would vote for independence in a referendum without one.

I  don't believe I have EVER suggested Scotland "crawling back", whether on here or anywhere else.

If Scotland leaves the Union it leaves, and I am absolutely certain that if/when it is found to be as useful as Brexit has been, there'll be the same desire to completely ignore the screw-up and carry on as if it is perfect. So there will not be ANY chance of going back.

If you have evidence of me posting about "crawling back" please post it and I will apologise, otherwise would you please apologise.

You made this extremely unpleasant post, it's the sort of thing that sticks in the memory:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/sturgeon_johnson_is_frightened_...

Just an excellent and entertaining tongue in cheek rant in response to Tom's nonsense isn't it?

It's literally just the "too poor, too wee or too stupid" argument, I really can't be bothered.

More divisive than effectively removing the democratic route to independence?

I doubt it, but I suppose we may well find out.

I think both are potentially divisive. I am all for a second referendum at the right time and with safeguards against a divisive outcome. Maybe ideally the Scottish Government could call a referendum without permission from Westminster but only with a supermajority and no sooner than, say, ten years after the last one.

I'm not against this idea, but I don't see any route to it happening.

What I am against is leaving all the power with the UK government so they can just game things to block the democratic route to independence regardless of what the Scottish electorate want.

A referendum is the best route to independence, and the possibility of having one makes the other methods pretty much unviable. It also gives the unionist side a fair chance to make their case; if they can't, well, so be it.

Take the option of a referendum away, and there will be a huge push towards other methods - perhaps securing a Scottish parliamentary majority for UDI, and all the lovely stuff that could come with that.

As already posted by skog.

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/sturgeon_johnson_is_frightened_...

I don’t need an apology, but happy to accept it and recognise they were ill thought out words posted in the heat of the moment.

I don’t think so 😉 

It's not looking like there will be one this year, much as I hope there is.  2022 - 2014 is 8 years.  We are already pretty close to your 10 year number and the longer we leave it the harder it will be to reverse Brexit.  Every day the Tories are pushing us a long a path which separates us from Europe and centralises power in London.

Brexit has happened, and is not reversible. 😥

If you mean an independent Scotland joining the EU, there are a few hurdles to clear (largest being currency IMO)

Pedantry.  Scotland back in the EU reverses Brexit as far as Scotland is concerned.

Kind of irrelevant, looks like it's going to turn into some nationalist pi$$ing contest between sturgeon and salmond. They'll be too focused with fighting each other, to attend to normal duties of managing everything that's already devolved to holyrood. 

Yes I accept that and apologise for the term. Mea Culpa.

I can only say that I must have been riled beyond normal caution by the tone that these "discussions" sometimes take.

That's good of you; we all say stupid things from time to time.

As I have said to Skog;

Yes I accept that and apologise for the term. Mea Culpa.

I can only say that I must have been riled beyond normal caution by the tone that these "discussions" sometimes take.

Fairer to give the full quote there:

"Less than half of English people (46%) say they want Scotland to remain part of the UK. Few want to see the nation pull away, however, at just 13%. Most of the rest (34%) have no opinion, saying that they consider it a matter for the people of Scotland to decide."

So 13% want Scotland to leave, 87% want Scotland to stay, or feel its down to the Scots to decide - I'm not sure where your 80% comes from?

Given the later questions about emotional response to Scotland leaving (a large majority saddened) I think the general sentiment of the 34% who feel its up to the Scots can be deduced.

Indeed, a favourite trope of Al Evans RIP!

Graciously accepted. I appreciate it can often be hard on here not to get riled. I’m sure if we met in a bothy we could have a perfectly civil conversation over a dram. The internet can be an ugly place where we say things we wouldn’t in the real world.

Think I misread the data....

’Gets off high horse and hangs head in shame......’

It does concern me that the SNP probably do view it as a simple problem of reversing Brexit.

UK left on Brexit.

Scotland is and was on B day part of the UK.

Scotland has left EU.

If Scotland becomes independent wanting to be part of Europe, it starts at the beginning of the joining process.

But hey.... I wouldn't expect SNP to mention this slightly awkward part of their plan in the build up to any referendum. Detail isn't their strong point; look at their manifesto from 2014 in the light of how Brexit negotiations went. "We'll get" and "We got" are entirely different.

It’s weirdly worded TBF with the initial negative.

Several EU leaders including Macron and Ursula von der Leyen have made it clear that Scotland would be very welcome back into the EU and there is no 'queue' or 'from the beginning'.

For some reason the unionists and Brexiteers and the UK press seem to think that if they keep telling us it will be 'from the beginning' and 'end of the queue' we are going to believe them over the leaders of the EU.

As long as we start to negotiate to re-enter the EU before the Brexiteers manage to force structural changes on our economy it will be an easy process.  We are just putting things back they way they have been for decades.   The transitional arrangement the EU gave the UK and arrangements it has made with other states joining the EU show how it could be done.   A treaty which gets you in the single market and freedom of movement rights and pretty much puts everything back where it was for citizens and business and a couple of years later you are a full member state.

And to save time let's deal with the other unionist lies: membership of the EU and membership of the Euro are two different things.  Many EU states are not members of the Euro.  Criteria about the public sector defincit are for Eurozone membership, not EU membership.

Negotiating to get in to the EU and return to the status-quo-ante is a hell of a lot easier than negotiating to leave the EU while cherry picking some of the privileges of a member state. 

Actually you could read the data to suggest there’s more support for the Union in Scotland, than England.

46% of English want Scotland to stay in the Union. And in 2014 55% of Scots voted to stay.

It’s the view of the 30 odd percent who think it’s Scotland’s choice that push it higher - given you can only answer this sort of survey based on the questions set the lack of a “it’s obviously the choice of the Scottish people, but I really hope they stay” option - means you can’t see that set of people.

Anyway - you seem hard to persuade on this point!

Not at all, I’m just musing. 

If you want to talk about lies, it would be helpful if you understood the facts also. Now only Denmark has an opt out. Sweden does not, but relies on its domestic democratic mandate from the '93 referendum that pre dates 1999 agreement on the convergence criteria. All members except Denmark are "required" to join the Euro once they meet the convergence criteria. https://ec.europa.eu/info/business-economy-euro/euro-area/enlargement-euro-... as Malta, Slovenia, Slovakia and the Balts have done. You can actively try to avoid meeting the criteria I suppose (current Polish govt. seem so inclined) but it's not how to get on with your EU partners.

And while it might be nice that Macron or whoever have said Scotland would be welcome in the EU he isn't an "EU leader", he is a leader of an EU member state, and thus one vote on the European Council. I suspect that an independent Scotland probably could negotiate accession but to suggest it's straight forward is propaganda. What commitments will Scotland make to European defence policy for example? Or to the joint foreign service? How sure are you that Spain (or blocks of Spanish MEPs), or indeed some Eastern member states, who have large linguistics or national minorities within their states, aren't going to object?

I've heard similar before, and I don't follow the line of thinking. Surely the English opposition has to get it's act together regardless? If it can't do so now, in what way would Scottish independence enable it?

Our "allies" in the rUK have abandoned left wing political goals. Do you really expect Scottish political movements to reset their goals to align them with the rUK right wing shift?

It's never going to be a simple process, and this is perhaps a slightly pedantic point, but there is no "beginning" point of the joining process. Every country applying to join us assessed on its own merits. 

The UK is currently fairly aligned with the EU, as we've only just left. The longer we wait before independence, the further that alignment will drift towards US standards and practices, therefore the longer the process of Scotland rejoining the EU will become.

I think the question for the people of Scotland to decide on is:

would the effort required to leave the sinking UK ship and get back to the EU be worth going through.

I think it is. In the short term it'll suck, but in the long term the EU will be a much better place to be. And thanks to Brexit, the short term is going to suck regardless.

As you point out, States are required to join the Euro if they meet the convergence criteria, but they are not required to meet the convergence criteria.

Personally, I would think it makes sense to progress towards the stability of convergence with the zone, and therefore join at some point down the line, but that would be a future decision that could be avoided if we want.

The Spanish problem has largely been resolved by Brexit. The breakup of a third country in no way sets a precedent for the breakup of a member state. 

One could argue it’s worth it even without rejoining the EU. Economically, almost certainly not in the short term, but there are other reasons.

So why has Spain still not recognised Kosovo's independence then? Kosovar membership of the EU is still a long long way off.

It would be such a seismic shift that what is currently unthinkable to many may become thinkable. We would be living in a new 'state'..... if that doesn't give impetus for change I don't know what would. 

It's not something I really want to happen, but if it does we might as well respond positively.

I don't agree. Since 2010 Labour shifted leftwards from the vague centre ground Blair/Brown took the party, culminating in Corbyn as leader. As this happened support for the SNP in Scotland surged, at Labour's expense.

Corbyn's election was a complete shock to everyone in the PLP, not the culmination of any sort of leftwards direction of the party.

He presented a centre-left manifesto, which was pretty familiar to SNP voters, which we were told was completely unelectable in England.

The labor party has got rid of him and are doing everything in their power to distance themselves from that manifesto.

No the shift left started with Ed Milliband, the 2015 manifesto was centre left pro-EU. The Tories ruthlessly exploited the rise of Scottish nationalism in the election and the rest is history.

Strange then that Nicola Sturgeon would be so critical of Corbyn, branding him 'completely useless' and criticising him on anti-Semitism.

Corbyn resigned after the 2019 election.

Did she say Corbyn was completely useless (correct) or his policies were ?

Do new leaders normally just reuse the manifesto of their predecessor?

She said Corbyn was 'completely and utterly useless'. I get your point but if Ciro's narrative was correct and he had shifted Labour's policies to that of her own party, you'd expect something other than describing him as 'completely and utterly useless'. 

Obviously I don't agree with Ciro's narrative, in the SNP I see a centrist party who will tilt one way or the other in order to achieve their main objective.

I found Corbyn's published policies to be overwhelmingly positive and promising (which contrasts with the way many of them were portrayed, twisted into unrecognisability by many in the media.)

That doesn't stop me from also considering him to have been the biggest electoral liability to lead the Labour party in my lifetime.

Him, not his policies. Although it’s only a wee clip so she maybe said more.

https://www.express.co.uk/videos/6099373964001/Nicola-Sturgeon-labels-Jerem...

And rejoining the EU would mean a hard border with our biggest trading partner. We're screwed whatever we do.

The SNP used to be a broad church, and there was a lot of debate over whether they should stay that way or take a political position outside of pro independence.

The left of the party won that debate, and moved the party to fill the void that was left when labour lurched to the right under Blair, and they've resided fairly comfortably there since.

Corbyn threatened to bring labour back to its traditional ground, which would be a double edged sword for the SNP. On the one hand it would bring UK politics back closer to where they want it to be, on the other it would take supporters from the SNP, damage the independence cause, and potentially re-ignite the debate over whether the SNP should be a left of centre party, or go back to chasing everybody's votes.

So it's hardly a surprise that the leader of the SNP wasn't rushing out to proclaim Corbyn to be the Messiah.

Corbyn tool Labour to the left and spectacularly lost out to The SNP. And anyway, I don't think the SNP wants politics to be anywhere in particular - it will just follow the votes and that appears to be centre left in Scotland at the moment.

You're joking. 2015 was the we're all right wingers now "austerity lite" election campaign from Labour and Scotland abandoned Labour because of it.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/uk-news/labour-will-keep-austerity-says-milib...

I do accept that Ed Miliband would have been a shift to the left from the Blair years but that's not how they campaigned.

Looks like you've blown your chance.

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/politics/scottish-independence-referendu...

Nope.  It looks like the Tories shot their bolt too early.  This is a poll with a tiny sample commissioned by a unionist organisation that was done - deliberately - right at the peak of the sh*t around Salmond.  But Sturgeon got exonerated by the independent report, she's looking stronger now.   

Interestingly, because there are now two visions of independence on offer it can be made to appeal to a wider spread of voters.  This is the trick the Brexiteers did.   Salmond/Alba can push a socially right of centre agenda which appeals to older voters and gives people who might buy into Indy but don't like the 'woke' elements of the SNP agenda somewhere to go.

Labour lost most of it's traditional left wing vote in Scotland long before Corbyn came along. Having found a home in the SNP, they weren't going to come rushing back just because the PLP had a new leader. 

In order for a left wing labour party to regain credibility with Scottish voters, they had to prove they were capable of making substantive change in England. In the short term they were never going to shift voters back in substantial numbers, and they were always going to lose the votes of Scottish brexiteers, and some New Labour voters too, so it's hardly surprising they tanked in Scotland.

From day one, the PLP were making it clear they were not going to accept a left wing leader. As the majority of the party was English, and the majority of Westminster is English, it was up to the English to decide whether they were ready to accept a major  left wing party again. 

Had that happened, they would have begun to take votes from the SNP in Scotland, but it would have taken time.

It took several election cycles for the SNP to take votes from Labour after the New Labour revolution - most left wingers (including myself) kept voting red and hoping to change things from within. It would have taken a similar timeframe to reverse the shift. 

But England is still in thrall to the right. The labour party are back to talking about being left wing while trying to act like Red Tories. They're supporting right wing legislation, and presenting no left wing arguments against.

FWIW I think the Scottish labour party will re-establish itself quickly in Scotland post independence - as long as it properly distances itself from the Westminster party and takes a left wing stance. I think the Tories will too. Assuming we retain or improve on the PR aspect of Scottish parliament, Scottish politics should be much healthier with a proper right and a left, which has been missing for so long in Westminster. The question of independence has artificially inflated the SNP's vote, one we have it settled we will be in a good place I think. The level of political engagement the independence debate has caused bodes well for the future.

The labour right wants to be all things to all people at the moment. That's resulting in a lot of gaslighting and revisionism. They've seen it work for trump and farage.

Do you not think there's a huge space between reusing the last manifesto, and doing everything you can to distance yourself from it?

The traditional thing to do is to put your own twist on the manifesto, something to brand or as your own, without throwing away everything your pretty had been working towards.

I think a reasonably smooth transition between leaders is a sign of a functional party, don't you?

For example, I don't remember Surgeon doing her best to distance herself from the party's manifesto under Salmond, despite their now obvious personal differences. 

I actually thought Corbyn did a pretty good job of creating an uncontentious continuity manifesto that the whole of the labour labour party would be able to get behind. Despite his long term membership of organisations like the CND and Stop The War Coalition, he put those personal politics aside, and stuck to promoting social equality.

In fact, I'd say by sticking to the recent party line on "defence", he created a manifesto slightly to the right of the SNP despite his personal politics being substantially to the left of that position.

I guess some on the left might say he should have ripped everything up and started again under his own vision, but that's the sort of shit that rips parties in two.

I think it was the right thing to do to try to unite the party (and by that I mean in deed, not in words and platitudes like the right of the party do). It's a shame others in the party aren't prepared to do so. It might have every lead to a coherent opposition to right wing politics in England.

Because they still consider their independence to be contentious. Assuming Scottish independence is achieved in a manner that rUK accepts, they won't have a problem with it - they are comfortable in their belief that Catalonia has no way to leave without their permission under the Spanish constitution.

This is why Sturgeon has so long resisted calls for a "plan B" if Westminster continues to refuse another referendum, and is now considering the legal options that might not involve breaking any UK laws, but will still not consider UDI as an option. To do so would put us in a position where Spain would refuse to recognise us and veto membership of the EU.

https://emerging-europe.com/news/the-explainer-the-eus-kosovo-refuseniks/

" While officially Spain’s stance remains the same, it may be softening. It suggested last year that it would have no problem in recognising Kosovo if a deal was struck with Serbia, and it has also made clear that it will recognise an independent Scotland – and not veto any EU membership application that might follow – if the UK government approves a new referendum.

Spain has also said that it will honour a football fixture in Kosovo later this year: the two countries have been drawn together in the same qualifying group for the 2022 World Cup. While European football’s governing body deliberately keeps some countries apart when making its draws (such as Gibraltar and Spain, Armenia and Azerbaijan, Ukraine and Russia, as well as Kosovo and Serbia, Bosnia-Herzegovina, and Russia), Spain did not request it be exempted from playing Kosovo."

A political dispute between two countries, isn't the same as two nations that were physically at war with each other. 

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here?

Comparing Spain and Kosovo, isn't exactly the same as Russia and the Ukraine. 

I'm still at a loss as to the relevance of that to the question of Scottish independence and whether Spain would try to block EU membership?

Read what you wrote 0901.

I'm sure the eu would love Scotland to join. As a net contributor, full access to Scottish waters and a pledge to join the euro. It can be done quite quick, I think Estonia (net contributor) took only 9 years. 

Spain; even if the details are different, Spain will block anything that even remotely adds to catalonias case. 

I know what I wrote 0901, I was comparing Scotland to Kosavo, and explaining why Spain saw the two differently, in response to a question about why Spain would treat the two differently.

Where did you get the idea that I was comparing Kosavo to Spain? I'm not.

I give up, you were comparing the Kosova / Spain relationship, to countries which have previously been at war with each other. 

Spain won't endorse Scotland unless it means Spains financial contribution to the eu declines, or they can fish Scottish waters more, why would they risk stoking the Catalan fire, if there is no reward. 

The 2019 manifesto was at the heart of the campaign which led to an 80-seat Tory majority. I genuinely don't understand anyone of any political stripe thinking the right thing to do would be to clearly just recycle and tweak anything from that campaign.

As Labour's new policy direction emerges more over the next year or so, I think you're going to struggle to justify saying that the party is "doing everything it can" to distance itself from the work on Green New Deal for instance, and Dodds has already shown she's willing to stand up against austerity and the "household budget" narrative.

Where Labour are shifting, and understandably so, is on messaging and tone. I expect some more flags (shrug), more explicit support for the armed services and more repetition that the party is patriotic. That messaging is not for namby pamby cynical left wing metropolitan liberals like me but I get that. Inspiring a devoted hardcore in the cities over the previous five years proved to be worse than useless.

You're an expert now on Spanish European policy amongst all the other things you are expert in? I'm impressed. To be less snarky, please explain how you know this with such certainty. 

I see this completely differently. With the Scottish Parlaiment's PR element, I see the main political attraction of independence the emergence of a centrist social democratic consensus with the parties further left and right marginalised except as possible junior coalition partners,  never giving us anything like the dreadful left/right option we had in the last Westminster election with the centre not even an option except as a wasted vote.

That's my thought and hope too.

I think England, and as a consequence the UK, is roughly centre-right, but the awful winner-takes-all system leaves it prone to significant swings from there.

Scotland is roughly centre-left, I think, and the electoral system means we can have more parties and people could vote more for what they actually want; this should lead to more coalitions and deals, and less swinging to extremes. Probably.

Yes, and I think this is the ground currently pragmatically occupied by the SNP. On independence, without the distraction and distortion of the independence issue, different parties would challenge for this ground, allowing us to choose on specific policies and on competence to implement them.

The last refuge of the scoundrel, so I’ve heard

It's just a chat forum, aren't people allowed to hold different views? No one knows exactly what would happen should Scotland apply for eu membership, that doesn't just include us here, but also senior politicians. It doesn't stop us holding a given view though. 

Absolutely. While the Labour Party has abandoned left wing politics and chased Tory votes many left wing people have persisted with Labour, thinking that the Labour Party is the most realistic vehicle for delivering change. The events of the last 5 years have shattered that illusion now, with the party machine and PLP stuffed with right wingers actively working against delivering the change that the leadership and the membership were working for.

Disillusioned left wing voters in Scotland had an alternative with the SNP in 2015. I'm currently torn about whether it's worth persisting with Labour or whether to look for another political home and I wonder whether the Northern Independence Party will make any inroads? First test is the upcoming Hartlepool by-election.

https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/devolution/2021/03/can-northern-indep...

ha! If the Yorkshire party can’t make inroads I don’t see a ‘Northern Party’ managing it. 
FPTP really is a pisser.

I really wasn't. I was comparing Kosavo to Scotland. 

Scotland has around 25% of Europe's tidal energy potential, and a network of emptied oil fields that can be used to store and distribute hydrogen when that green energy source starts to take off.

Please don't worry about Scotland's ability to contribute, or Europe's willingness to have us inside contributing. The future for Scotland is bright, once we get rid of the fossils in Westminster who are holding green energy back.

Scotland's had Westminster money flowing there from the subsidy added to every uk electricity bill for several years. Subsidising the research into tidal in the orkneys, or building all wind turbines, or going further back half a century building all the dams and hydro capacity. 

Ability to pay, doesn't Scotland currently run an annual deficit? 

There was a referendum in the North East a few years ago about some level of devolution or a super mayor, all were rejected. 

Yeah, I don't think we see it differently, I perhaps didn't express myself well.

When I said a "proper right and left" I wasn't meaning in the style of two party politics, more a functional right and left made from coalitions.

The Tories will have a stronger voice, the SNP will lose voters to parties like the greens, labour will recover, coalition governments will become more normal like they are in many parts of the world.

FPTP made the last coalition in Westminster a formality, with PR coalitions will need to be much fairer and parties will need to think about alliances beyond the next election cycle.

Of course it does. As does the US, China, Spain, Germany, Japan, France, the UK, Italy, Canada, the Netherlands, Belgium, Sweden, Poland, Ireland, and just about everyone else aside from Qatar and Luxembourg. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_government_budget

Running a country is not like running a household budget, despite what the tabloid headlines might try to make you believe.

Indeed, but it does bring us back to the question that the snp always dodge, currency, debt, borrowing, crediting rating etc.. 

Fill your boots:

https://www.gov.scot/publications/scotlands-future/pages/6/

That's 8 years ago, has  been proven nonsense, and doesn't have answers to Summo's questions. (Salmond.famously couldn't say what currency would  used, and there still isn't an answer).

I remember Salmond being interviewed about the currency day before the referendum.
I: what currency are you going to use?
S: GBP
I: What if you can't?
S: Blah blah blah
I: What's your plan B?
S: Blah blah waffle waffle blah blah blah waffle ...

& repeat ad nausium

For many Scots the Union Jack ( or "butchers apron" ) represents sectarianism, bigotry an utterly alien concept of "Britishness". It's the flag that was flown in garrisons across Scotland after 1745 as the Highlands were systematically brutalised and pillaged. Just as it was used in the subjugation of countries all over the world. 

And it's now being used as a symbol to reinforce the primacy of Westminster over Holyrood. Despite the fact that the Westminster government has no mandate in Scotland. It just shows how bankrupt the idea of the union is if all they have left is laws to ban peaceful protest, to protect statues and to plaster buildings in flags.

I presume sturgeon is setting up a BACS payment to return all those horrible English pounds of furlough funds, wouldn't want that dirty cash in Scottish bank accounts? Surprising when it comes to money how tolerant of the evil English you are. 

If folk remember events from 276 years ago, why is the once a generation referendum coming around so quickly again? 

He probably did. He also said the Euro and Scottish pound at other points.  What he didn't have, and what still doesnt exist is a good plan for Scotland's finances (currency, debt, central bank etc etc.). Given where this approach has got us with Brexit, voting for it is reckless I would say. 

Incorrect. Westmister has a mandate for all non-devolved matters in Scotland.

North East / North West / Yorkshire, I've always thought they were too parochial for devolution. Never heard anyone describe themselves as a north-westerner or a north-easterner but I do have a strong sense of shared identity as a northerner. The North is a much more appropriate scale of region for devolution with a shared culture and heritage.

Of course there wasn't an answer in 2014 because it depended on a negotiation about use of the pound.   Asking for a definitive answer in advance of that negotiation and then chanting 'Na Na Na' when you don't get one is a playground debating tactic.

The situation is fundamentally different from 2014 because of Brexit.  In 2014, with England/rUK an EU member state using the pound might have been a long term option.  I don't see that now: if Scotland's future is in the EU and England's is outside it then the long term outcome will either be a Scottish currency or the Euro.  If we use the pound immediately after independence it will be temporarily as a transition towards something else.

It has power but it doesn't have a mandate.  Look at the results of the last election.

It just another layer of the gravy train wasting money, putting more distance between the population and those really making the decisions. Government isn't a business, but effective industry where folk feel valued tend to have less middle management and workers at all levels who feel more connected to the top. 

Or an effective way of making decisions at a local level.

Correct.

So why proceed with the business analogy?

Why not look at how other successful governments are run?

I think you're right that to many levels of government can be a trap, and I think that the UK fell into it when they gave Scotland devolution whilst part of the EU... The three parliaments was one too many IMO and people began to feel represented by e Scottish and European, but not Westminster parliaments.

However the German länder system seems to have successfully given people a sense of both local control and German identity that is lacking in the UK.

I suspect the main difference is that there's a sense of balance at all levels - everyone is part of a state therefore everyone has investment in the system. In the UK, the English have no parliament of their own, and English MPs far outnumber everyone else, therefore they are not invested in devolved power and the UK parliament acts as an English parliament.

A properly federal UK may have worked within Europe, but that ship seems to have sailed.

Scotland's future is back in the EU, but if England's future is to be outside it then perhaps Brexit provides the opportunity for real reform of the power structure, decentralisation from London done properly could only be a good thing for the regions of England and Wales IMO.

there are more English mps because England has vastly more population. Per capita Scotland has more MPs. 

You could compare the German system to the uk. The uk has 3 locally elected devolved parliaments under one central government. 

there will be some in the Highlands and Islands who say the same about Edinburgh. Maybe there needs to be more devolution within Scotland.