UKH

Can't see a thread on this news item, so I thought I'd ask footy fans on here if the euro super league is a good idea which will benefit football and what all the right thinking fans want (like Madrid's chairman) or the point where capitalism gets to eat it's own children - G. Neville esq (abridged opinion)?

Personally I think if FIFA and EUAFA and the existing leagues ban the clubs and their players from competitions then surely it's over before it can start. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

My team, Walsall, just missed the cut, so I'm firmly in the cannibal capitalism camp.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

On the report on Radio 4, a past chairman of Manchester City said that at least one of these elite clubs has debts of greater than a billion pounds, and that has to be the main driver behind this; partly due to ill-management during the Corona virus restrictions. Apparently the wages of players have not been curbed at all!

In reply to veteye:

Although they have been playing matches and hence getting TV / advertising revenue

In reply to Andy Hardy:

When it first broke last night I initially thought it meant those clubs would no longer play in their national leagues. That would be really rubbish. Following the announcement overnight it seems it's just intended to replace the champions league. In which case, as a Liverpool fan, I'm not hugely bothered. In England the top six dominate things already. However, I can see that I'd be upset if I was a Leicester fan and having 12 permanent teams doesn't seem good for competition in the long run.

The other thought I had was that if there is a mid week game every week, the managers will hate it and they will effectively have to run two teams or use far more rotation. So one competition or other will end up being relegated to the one they play a weaker side in each week.

I thought that initially too, but with the quotes from the chief execs of several clubs this morning, it seems they are fully in it up to their heads. Fans don't switch allegiances quickly or at all so the top clubs have a huge amount of power. I think if those clubs just went for it, FIFA would cave in because otherwise it would be a big number of top players no longer on show at a world cup and it would call the competition into question because some teams would be more significantly affected than most; FIFA would want to avoid that. The world cup is the only thing that really matters because it's the only thing the top players would take more seriously than the biggest club competition. Of course this relies on those clubs keeping their players through an uncertain period.

Other thoughts; it's a lot of unsightly brinkmanship, and/or a battle for influence being played out in public.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

There will be a good few without a dog in this fight!

Actually if the prem. kicked the breakaway 6 out, there'd be 6 more places for promotions cascaded down through the leagues. Could be good for Walsall?

In reply to Si dH:

Arsenal are in 9th - hardly "dominating". What about Leicester, West Ham, Everton ?

This is just a money grab by clubs who've overspent, so ban them and stuff them. After all, it's just a bunch of billionaires who want to pull the ladder up to prevent any other billionaires beating them in their private willy-waving contest. Not one of them cares for either the sport or the fans.

Leeds overspent and went belly-up, and so should these clubs if their stranglehold on the trophies has been achieved by illegal and barely legal overspending.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

It is pure vulgarity. Based on money not on culture, tradition or love of the beautiful game. Eat your heart out Dixie Dean, Stanley Matthews, Billy Wright, Bobby Moore...rolling in their graves. I wouldn't be surprised if those recent miscreants, Blatter & Platini, were recruited as the ambassadors of this gorml;ess, out-of-touch initiative.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Whoops - never saw your thread.

Its a rubbish idea.

In reply to Si dH:

I can see why you might not be hugely bothered as a Liverpool fan, but it would certainly mean an end to participation in the Champions League, and that would mean an end to Liverpool's history in the CL. At the moment there is a lot of sabre-rattling from EUFA, FIFA and the PL, with talk of clubs and players being barred from the PL, internationals etc., which would also matter to LFC. How it turns out will depend on much posturing and testing of legal positions. I am sure the lawyers will benefit hugely if nothing else.

I suspect that this is just an opening salvo from the clubs. Part of it is likely to be about establishing a position in opposition to emerging proposals to expand and change the Champions League. They probably expect some kind of compromise to emerge from legal wrangling and behind the scenes negotiation. As above, the lawyers will be OK anyway. 

In reply to Andy Hardy

It's motivated by money grabbing, pure and simple. But then so is FIFA's and EUAFA's opposition of it, as the slice of their pie is diminished. 

I personally don't think its better, we'll end up in a Scottish situation where the domestic league are dominated by a couple of super-clubs, those with the financial firepower of playing the super league.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

Can you see a West Midlands super league working? West Brom, Walsall, Wolves.....

Potential for huge TV  audience figures abroad.

ps. Baggies fan here....

In reply to Si dH:

As a Liverpool or Spurs fan in particular, I can see why you may think its a good idea because they aren't going to get anywhere on merit !

In reply to Max factor:

Another thing that strikes me: without relegation and promotion, this league is just a set of exhibition matches, or have I missed something?

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Don’t (do) worry the government is on the case.....though not sure this should really be top of the priority list right now:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/apr/19/ministers-urged-to-take-ac...

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Limited promotion according to their speil

https://thesuperleague.com/press.html

Joel Glazer ffs

I hope The PL, La Liga and Serie A stand firm and kick out any club that participates.

Edit: And I hope the real Super League 🏉 can sue them!

In reply to Bob Kemp:

If it is a negotiation strategy they've pushed too far. There's been enough pandering to the interests of these 12 corporations already. They should be offered a reduced package and they should be cut loose from the existing structures of football if they do go ahead with this greedy BS.

The existing competitions will be revitalised with plenty of big clubs left to take up any slack in a more competitive sporting environment.

I wonder how long the glory hunters will stay interested in watching the representatives of the 12 corporations meeting each other for eternity while the rest of football carries on? When they want to come back into the fold they should be made to spend 20 years working their way back up the pyramid like any other new football club.

In reply to veteye:

They get 250-300 million per season. In comparison the CL will give them 50 million. This isn't being stopped. It's a bad idea but I see why they are doing it. They money is there.

In reply to cumbria mammoth:

I think this is beyond negotiating. They've backers in JP Morgan. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Its US sports. I don't think any US professional league has relegation. 

In reply to cumbria mammoth:

This is midweek. There's still going to be a premier league season - well that's the plan anyway.

Not sure how that works with no european qualification and the big 6 now being untouchable.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Can the "founding 15" ever get relegated? Not clear from the press release.

Also, are these the same clubs who's managers have been whining about fixture congestion / playing too many matches and needing a winter break?

In reply to Roadrunner6:

I think they've miscalculated and will eventually lose money. The owners don't understand that the PL will carry on with some big name clubs, and the Champions League, and the global audience will prefer those.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I'd say definitely not! 

Yeah but I'd be surprised if the the likes of Klopp and Solskjaer are into this.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

They won't be able to fulfill their commitments to existing domestic, European, and international competitions as well as adding this new format to their fixture list. 

No reason for UEFA or the domestic FA's to support the corporations to undermine their competitions. If they won't fulfill their commitments then kick them out.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

These 6 clubs will stay in the PL. There seems to be confusion that this replaces domestic football too.

This is about CL TV money.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Yeah klopp is moaning away about this. Ferguson was moaning about it 25 years ago and liverpool didn't back him.

It sounds like it's fixed. So the founding clubs can't be relegated. It'll just be expanded. 

Honestly I think it'll happen now. Fans will stick with clubs. We're all annoyed but I'd be surprised if fans leave clubs.

In reply to cumbria mammoth:

It'll be the CL and Europa they won't fulfill. Possibly domestic cups. Lots unclear at the moment. It sounds like it wont start for 1-2 years.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

https://www.uefa.com/insideuefa/news/0268-12121411400e-7897186e699a-1000--s...

I don't think the owners of the clubs understand that UEFA, the PL ect do have the power here. As the cumbrian mammoth said other clubs exist who will step right into their shoes.

In reply to Mike Stretford:

They can't though. Not fully.

Madrid, man U, Liverpool and Barça are irreplaceable. The clubs know that.

Viewing figures every week tell them people don't watch those clubs. This is all about TV money.

I think banning from international cups may help but money talks. Players will go to money. 

In reply to Mike Stretford:

I struggle to take UEFA talking about standing up to self interest seriously.. 

One thing is clear, lawyers will be rubbing their hands with glee over this.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

I don't think they are, I think the owners, and you, have this wrong.

I know what it's about but the differences in viewers aren't that big.

https://fanbanter.co.uk/new-study-shows-most-watched-football-clubs-and-mat...

Some of those clubs like Everton would become the new top six, they would be seen as the authentic clubs. I don't think the owners appreciate how important that is globally.

In reply to Roadrunner6:  They may well be irreplaceable, but they can damage their own brands a lot ...   Is there really an appeal for a long term relegationless league of glorified exhibition matches?  I assume they think the PL etc will retime all the midweek fixtures etc around this.

I hope the owners all have a miserable time

In reply to Mike Stretford:

Solsjkaer isn't powerful enough to stand up to this. Klopp is leaving soon anyway. I'd say only Pep will have any sway.

In reply to wbo2:

Well that's what the top 4/5 qualifying was meant to do anyway - guarantee european football. The CL was created and broadened in response of previous iterations of this.

Re midweek, the CL is going to be 36? Clubs next season. Europa is massive too. My bigger concern is competition if the likes of liverpool get 250 million a year extra. It's bad enough when it's 50-80 million.

In reply to Max factor:

Dont we have that now?

Anyway this isn't anything new. We've been seeing this power struggle for decades. It's basically what the premier league was, and why the CL has grown and grown.

It's not just something new owners have brought to the table.

It's worrying. I think this will happen this time.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Terrible idea ! What a shame we don’t have the German model whereby fans own 51% of each club. Although this isn’t wholly out of the blue I find it arrogant that it was launched without consultation with the fans. Lots of protests will take place.......
Bayern have refused to be part of this as have PSG, however the PSG reasons are tied into their TV situation.

Threats are flying around and FIFA have said that players at these clubs won’t be able to play in international competitions so interesting to see how that plays out.

Meanwhile the remaining 14 premiership clubs meet tomorrow so the result of that meeting will be interesting.......

In reply to Roadrunner6:

I think that you're right in the short to medium term at least, these corporations will keep the majority of their fans, especially for the first few seasons where the new league will feel all shiny, fresh and unique.

I agree with a post above though that long term, I reckon they're making a huge miscalculation. I feel in the long term these clubs' influence will gradually erode and they will lose fans. I just can't see, long term, people paying to watch games between the same 14 clubs year after year, with no excitement of relegation, no possibility of a dark horse smaller team coming from nowhere and beating the big boys etc.

In reply to Wimlands:

Now we're talking. Need to consider the exact make-up carefully. Let the Birmingham teams in or keep it Black Country? Probably need subtitles to make the punditry accessible to an international audience in that case though, particularly if they learned proper English at school.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I vaguely follow what's happening in football but I'm not an avid supporter.

Clearly a money grabbing exercise which most people seem angry at but for the Premier League and UEFA / champions league to play the "poor clubs" card is a bit much dont you think? They've spent the last 30 years turning the screws on fans with ever increasing match day prices and season tickets despite consecutive record breaking TV deals and  ludicrously spiralling wage bills.

As for FIFA saying anything about fairness, money and affecting real fans.... can't wait to Qatar 2022.

How will these teams maintain top flight status with so many matches? The PL can limit squad sizes to make it impossible to rotate players effectively. It might just make the PL competitive again.

As for the fans of these clubs, if you agree to buy the shirts, attend matches or otherwise fund them then you can only expect more of the same.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

As it stands all of the football authorities have come out strongly against it - FIFA, UEFA, Premier League, The FA....  And they all say that any team involved in it, and all of their players will be banned from any other competition. 

So as it stands the teams and their players will only play in the Super league, but that's really not what the teams or the players or the authorities want, so there's a hell of a game of chicken coming up.

Most likely outcome, I think, Premier League eventually after some promise of cash, allow it (after all, pot calling kettle black and all that), they roll on The FA to allow it too so the clubs will still be able to play in the Premier League, FA and League Cups.

UEFA will hold firm and insist the teams involved can't have any players in Euros/WC but it'll be a token gesture that will run in the 2 years when there's no major tournament anyway, then the ban will be repealed and that'll be that.  However all teams involved won't be able to play in the Champions or Europa leagues, but that's exactly what they want anyway.

Seeing as the teams have released their names, announced it formally, appointed chairman and vice, and very importantly, secured something in the region of £4bn in funding from JP Chase Morgan they are committed to this.

Like I said, hell of a game of chicken.

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Yes UEFA and FIFA taking about integrity and fairness is great..

Basically football has a lot of debt so they need more income. Real and Barça are both in trouble. 

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Yes you're right. 

UEFA's criticism of being against their spirit of open competition is nonsense - the whole Nations League "competition" was created to make it so the bigger national teams could play each other more often and create more revenue....

At the end of the day this is about money, Chelsea are over a Billion in debt apparently.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

US sports have salary caps and drafts to try to level the playing field within their leagues and prevent teams dominating for long periods. There seems to be no suggestion of the same for this proposal. So, a knockout phase dominated by Real Madrid, Barcelona, and Bayern Munich & PSG, if they end up forced into it; and Arsenal and Spurs as makeweights. Being beaten most weeks and finishing every year with a string of exhibition matches against fellow also-rans, forever, might seem like a good idea to start with when that £300m cheque arrives; but I think it might lose its shine pretty quickly. 
 

I can see the attraction for Madrid and Barca, and probably Liverpool and Man Utd/City; but many of the others- making up the numbers at someone else’s party. I don’t think Spurs v inter in a meaningless late season bottom end of the table game has the same market value as a Classico matchup in the knockout phase, and I don’t expect that it’s going to take the Really Big 6 to point that out to the Relatively Not That Big After All 6, and start the renegotiation to strip the patsies of the better part of their ‘prize’. 

Unless you’re Madrid or Barca, this has got ‘be careful what you wish for’ written all over it...

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Yeah true.

Tbh I think this is more about finances than sport. 

United were always a football team first which was also a well run business. These days the football seems to come second to the business. 

It's very worrying how this will change the game.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

These clubs are mega businesses with hundreds of millions in debt.   The lenders are going to be a lot happier and the owners will find it a lot easier to float them on the stock market if they have the quasi monopoly underpinning their business.   It is the US model - a continent wide league with a fixed franchise for the large cities which the teams will only lose if they go bankrupt.

As ambitious large businesses the clubs are trying to move beyond the shrinking UK economy by addressing the larger European market.  When most of the money is coming from TV rights it makes a lot of sense.

But the absolute best thing about it is it will really p*ss off the Tories and Brexiteers if the big clubs switch to a European league.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

This league trades on the history of the clubs without respecting it. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

As a West Ham fan with a Leicester City partner we constantly roll our eyes at the talk of the "Big 6". 

Sorry we crashed the party this year. 

Both our clubs play massive parts in their local communities which is how it should be. The ESL is pure greed on the part of 6 foreign billionaire owners and the bankers of JP Morgan. 

We've seen the fans reaction, let's hope some current players speak out.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I've got no interest in football at all and haven't got a clue about anything to do with it (it's amazing how much a of a conversation killer this can be with taxi drivers and barbers). 

But it's getting a load of coverage on the news and all of it seems negative.  Is there anyone who sees this as a good thing? (I can't see the ins / outs, pros / cons of it or the implications of it at all)

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Master of ineptitude, Gavin Williamson, was doing the media rounds this morning blustering about the government enacting legislation and imposing sanctions to stop the new league. I think we can therefore be pretty confident that there will be absolutely no new legislation or sanctions. It all feels a bit surreal to hear so many pundits saying, "It's all about the money," as if this was a surprising new development.

In reply to Babika:

Greed? Where exactly.

Considering most of the money that is generated ends up in players wages  there seems to be alot of people looking in the wrong place when talking about greed..

Its interesting that no German or French clubs are involved ..........for the moment.

In reply to neilh:

German clubs have an interesting ownership model, whereby a club cannot have more then 49% commercial investors. In practice, this means 'private investors cannot take over clubs and potentially push through measures that prioritise profit over the wishes of supporters. The ruling simultaneously protects against reckless owners and safeguards the democratic customs of German clubs.'

https://www.bundesliga.com/en/news/Bundesliga/german-soccer-rules-50-1-fift...

There is only one French club - PSG - considered super enough, and they have not signed yet, it is thought because of their existing contracts. Given that they are owned by Qatar Sports Investments, who also own Manchester City, I doubt they are keeping out it on the grounds of any fine points of principle. 

In reply to Babika:

I'm more interested in the fans long term reaction - its all very well speaking out against it now, but how about some real fan power? If the game is nothing without the fans, then if the fans of the 12 clubs don't pay to watch it on TV, and don't pay to attend the matches, instead reserving their support for existing / domestic competitions, then that would send a clear message. One of two outcomes is then possible; either the new super league stops (or changes radically) due to a lack of income, or the clubs demonstrate successfully that their "club heritage" means nothing to them, as their fan base is now the global (asian and american) TV audience. You might as well not bother building a new Anfield, but just play a couple of home matches in Singapore, or Shanghai, as American Football does in London (and other cities).

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

No, Man City are owned by City Football group which is ultimately headed and funded Sheikh Mansour of Abu Dhabi, whereas PSG is Qatar.  There's actually ownership rules meaning that one owner can't have two teams in the same UEFA competition.

PSG are more likely not involved as there is a political situation between Qatar and the UAE and they're not a big draw in terms of worldwide viewing (after all they were only founded in the 1970s and weren't anything like the level they are now since investment by Qatar).

For the other teams like Man U, I think this is all about long term financial stability.  They know that they are one of the biggest draws in broadcasting, and if they can get into the Champions League that's £100m in the bank each year they do, but it's not guaranteed they will, so they want to make a new league where they can be 100% certain they'll be in every year, and leverage worldwide support they have (150 million fans in China alone!), and guarantee a constant, stable and reliable income stream.  

PSG don't need it, the French league is so crap they're always going to be in the Champions League anyway!

In reply to neilh:

https://www.independent.co.uk/sport/football/premier-league/glazer-family-h...

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Some general comments:

1) as is often the case, many people are looking at this through a specific lens - an increasing number of football ‘fans’ are overseas (far east esp) who watch it on TV. My guess is they would prefer to watch big clubs play each other rather than Man Utd vs Norwich. We’ve know for ages that the football business model puts cash before fans. The cash is increasingly overseas. 

2) plenty of these clubs have huge financial problems and debt: Chelski, Barca, Real, Juve. They need this cash  

3) annoyingly, with this huge amount of extra cash the big six could afford to field two different teams a week, and would most likely still dominate the premier league. The extra overseas fan base and merchandise sales would be huge. 

4) whilst most people who claim to be ‘proper’ fans may choose to boycott Sky or whatever, most people watching football would happily watch Man Utd vs Juve etc. week in week out, even if those teams had f*ck all to play for. 

Up The Tics !!!!!

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

You're spot on with all of these points, apart from the one about the Tics!

In reply to Andy Hardy:

I wonder what the numbers are for the players over the same period.................there are alot of people at the trough...not just the owners.

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

If the big clubs in europe were playing each other all the time it would cease to be an event. Currently it's proper exciting when 2 big clubs get drawn in the UCL because it might only happen once every few years. I'll make a trip to the pub to watch a big game like that. 

It will be interesting to see if the threats of banning players from the Euros/WC are followed through on and also what happens from there. Will the best players in the world be pushing through transfer requests and ending up at clubs like Newcastle, Leeds, Leicester? I for one would chuckle if these splinter teams ended up significantly worse off out of this. 

The fact that clubs like Dortmund, PSG, Bayern, Porto, Ajax, etc. aren't involved makes it a bit of a non-starter for me. 

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

And naturally all the other clubs are looking at a huge financial hit when the TV rights for the "Alsoransliga" are sold rather than being subsidised by the top teams.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Apologies - I misread a piece about the ownership of PSG and jumped to the wrong conclusion. 

In reply to PaulJepson:

They'll just be an endless round of exhibition matches, but 100s of millions of 'fans' won't care, they only watch because it's Man U etc.

As Shearer says, kick them out of the PL now and good riddance to their money grabbing elitism. I won't miss them.

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

Oh no worries at all!  The subject of who owns what is really confusing as it's all done through investment funds, foundations, etc etc...   

Many of the foreign owners are in effect exercises in soft diplomacy by oil rich gulf states, and then on top of that you get private investment by oil rich middle eastern individuals, such as Sheffield United.  

It's all very confusing.

In reply to Maggot:

The premier league would though.

This isn't good v bad. It's one set of money grabbers v another set of money grabbers. And the clubs want the money and negotiating power instead of UEFA.

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

If these clubs are more interested in their Middle Eastern and Oriental fans then maybe they should build stadiums over there and each ship their entire operation to join up. The idea that the current stadia - and what was the Man City stadium built for I remind you - could be for football that increasingly ignores England/Britain/Europe and looks east is wrong.

If they do go their own way then matches are increasingly likely to be played at a time when those distant fans want to watch:- in THEIR evenings. This would make it awkward for home-based supporters to even attend, and would mean neighbours of these grounds could have noise and traffic (of "tourists" more likely) at all times of the day and week.

The above is yet another reason to quash this idea.

In reply to fred99:

That's the 12:30 kick off. That's for the asian audience. The evening weekend kick offs is for US audience.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Although I'm against the idea of the ESL, I'm not sure Boris Johnson should be getting involved in this and talking about sanctions and straight red cards.

Football clubs and teams aren't allowed to display political slogans or show political affiliation, so if they can't be involved in politics, I think politics should stay out of football. These are private businesses who should be free to make their own business decisions without threat and political interference.

Like I say, I'm against the idea, but I'm also against Boris sticking his oar in.

In reply to Iamgregp:

The only reason Johnson is sticking his oar in is because he (or his advisors) realise that this will play well with his new-found friends in the North. As it is, I doubt very much there is much legislation that could be passed to have any effect. I suspect sports lawyers are licking their lips at the prospect of much juicy litigation. 

In reply to Bottom Clinger:Not so sure about that.. I agree that the vast majority of fans are overseas, but I think there's a limited appetite for a closed league of meaningless matches, which is what you'll get if they're booted out of national leagues.  I haven't seen the viewing figures for recent El Classico's , but if it's once every couple of weeks, it's not really a classic at all.  I can't see the interest lasting so long - this is going to be Harlem Globetrotters rather than the NFL

I am pleased to see Pep and some players speak out.  This has zero to do with football, and everything to do with the mess that some of the clubs, esp. Barcelona, Real, Juventus and now Man U are in financially.

In reply to wbo2:

It's not really going to be once every couple of weeks - the way I see it they'll only face each other a maximum of 4 times a season in the ESL.  And most likely less as I'd imagine they'll seed them into different groups

They're looking at 2 x groups of 10, who each play each other home and away.  Top 3 go to 2 legged QFs, 4th and 5th in each group play off for final QF place.  QFs and SFs are two legged, Final single.

So if Barca and Real were in the same group they could only play a maximum of 4 times, and only then if they both finish 4th and 5th. Then one of them would be out.

If they were in the same group and finished better than third they could both get each other again in the QFs or SFs so again, they could play a maximum of 4 times.

If they were in different groups they could only play each other a maximum of twice. 

In reply to Iamgregp:

Yeah. I was struggling to think of what legislation could be applied; neither the clubs nor the representative/governing bodies are really anything to do with the government.

In reply to captain paranoia:

There was some general vagaries about "tax cuts and the like which could be looked at, make things difficult" etc but like you say, this isn't a government matter. 

In reply to wbo2:

Man U? Financially they are fine. They are in about the best shape of any of those 12 bar liverpool.

Juve, Madrid and Barca are looking at having to sell players. United just announced profits. They have debt but they are comfortably servicing that debt and have secured massive sponsorship deals.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

I've seen some conflicting reports about Man U;s debt, some putting it as high as around £500m, others less than half that.  Either way they're deep in debt, but like you say, probably not as much as some of the others on the list... Spurs and Chelsea in particular.

In reply to Iamgregp:

But they are servicing that debt and generally make big profits. I think it's about 450 million. Not ideal but debt in itself isn't bad if your business model can service it. United has been for a decade. Those other clubs can't and its why they need to sell players. The Glazer brothers each paid themselves 15 million from the club last year. It caused anger but the basic business model is successful.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

This is one of the more offensive parts of the plan- Man U are argue there “on merit”, as they are financially in reasonable shape. Many of the others have basically engaged in financial doping to artificially enhance their results, to get themselves into this league; then they intend to pull up the ladder behind them, and take a bigger share of income to football, ie transfer resources to them away from the clubs who didn’t dope to the same extent. 

In reply to no_more_scotch_eggs:

Yep, even as a Man U fan we should have to qualify. It's the top 4 anyway, and that's expanding so it will soon be top 5, top 6. If your business model can't take the odd bad year that should set off alarm bells. 

I can see this changing football, more feeder clubs etc.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

And then there were 11. Chelsea have left the ESL!

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Was just about to post! That's a hammer blow. Brave move to be first. 

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Not really that brave, they saw the way the wind was blowing and didn't want to be the last one out of the crumbling house.

In reply to Clarence:

We'll see. If the others stay the course it's going to create a massive gap. The English teams have the power to kill it off though if others follow. Madrid and Barca have little to lose as they are buggered.

https://www.insider.com/fc-barcelona-financial-results-lionel-messi-loss-de....

This was January. Barca couldn't pay their players. A friend lives there and they are hearing they could spectacularly fall from grace and be forced to sell their best players. They are desperate. The english clubs aren't.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2021/apr/20/european-super-league...

Looking like it's over for the ESL

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Yeah City now. And supposedly Barcelona (Collymore on Twitter a mate said). I thought they'd hold out longest. 

https://twitter.com/KuperSimon/status/1384579776782819328?ref_src=twsrc%5Et...

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Woah! Ed Woodward resigns.

https://theathletic.com/news/ed-woodward-manchester-united-european-super-l...

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Yes, this is very true.  Good point.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Agnellili at Juve has resigned too.

Saying its being disbanded already. 24 hours and it's over.

Credit to Luke Shaw for coming out against it. Supposedly Maguire confronted Woodward at a meeting and the players felt Ole was thrown under the bus as none of them knew about it.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Silver lining. 
 

In reply to Greenbanks:

https://mobile.twitter.com/afcstuff/status/1384575633368494080

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Looking goods that it'll back fire, it would be nice to see a couple of teams go bankrupt, it might help them grasp their wages are ridiculous, it's all well and good funding a few school meals, but the same kids will be shelling out silly money for football tops within weeks.

Football got what it deserved, the FA and eufa aren't exactly much better than this current break away group. 

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Luke Shaw - player of the season. Confirmed now!

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Well to say it was meant to be a league.. it advanced to the knock out stage pretty quick! Fantastic to see heads rolling, but even as a somewhat loosely based fan of one of the six I think we can’t let this be the end of it. Repercussions must be swift and savage. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Banning the offenders from all domestic and European cups for a year or two would be exciting! 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Wigan Latics won so who cares about this nonesense!!!!

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Oops. That's one large banana skin these clubs have stepped on....

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

TV won't want that. UEFA could ban them, I'm not sure the premiership could, but then TV bosses will be annoyed. They are already upset over how various bodies handled the pandemic and tv rights. 

That's partly why it was a very selfish time to do this because the sport was feeling from covid and potential tv rebates.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Fines, point deductions, transfer embargoes etc.. bans aren't the be all and end all. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I'm not sure they can, I don't know what domestic rules they broke. But Barça are on the edge financially. UEFA will not want one of the most valuable names in world football gone.

In reply to thread:

The speed of the collapse (race to get out of ESL) does indicate to me that the people at the top making these decisions might have security and trust issues.

In reply to Michael Hood:

It certainly indicates that they’ve never heard of stakeholder analysis. 
It also confirms my long-held opinion that football people are frequently incredibly stupid.

In reply to Bob Kemp:

On that note, this Twitter thread looks at the reasons why the football business is organised stupidity- 

https://twitter.com/kupersimon/status/1384587075115233284?s=21

In reply to Bob Kemp:

This first point. The fans nor players knew. It's incredible. Football is all about money but that money comes from your fanbase.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Premier League rule L9 requires pre approval of participation in any new competition. 

In reply to Roadrunner6:

FA rule E3, bringing the game in to disrepute. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

But they hadn't participated.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

This is more likely. We'll see.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

Indeed. But they had allegedly signed on the dotted line. I’m sure lawyers would have a field day arguing over whether that counts as participation. 

In reply to Andy Hardy:

What an incredible 48 hours. It's amazing how ramshackle this was - how on earth did they not foresee everything that has happened? How can businesses of this size be run by such idiots? And what the hell happens now? What was it that the clubs signed? Whoever was putting the money up for this will presumably be livid, and the clubs that have withdrawn will surely be in breach of the obligations they signed up to, won't they?

jcm

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Well, the language used is 'enter or play'. Hard to argue they hadn't 'entered'. Depends what exactly they signed, of course.

Still, I'd have thought the appetite from the PL and FA for punishing them will be small. I'd expect instead a period of fairly nauseating spin from all sides about the spirit of the game and coming together and messages having been heard, and so forth, followed by nothing much happening.

jcm

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I suspect as much also.

To thread

Hahaha billionaires have been told to shove it up their arses. Wankers.

In reply to johncoxmysteriously:

I think they've got to be care yupful.

This was the best outcome. I'm hopeful it's killed it off but dollars talk.

But should they punish them do badly they cripple Barça or madrid you risk the sport splitting.

My concern this morning was the super league succeeds and we end with feeder clubs into that and total domination of those clubs or the league fails and we lose legendary teams or you end up a split in the sport.

I really feel like we've dodged a bullet here in the sport as a whole. It just felt so much more serious than anything I've experienced. I was 11 when the premier league was formed but I didn't think that was really a seismic shock this potentially was.

And I know we say the premier league is dominated by a few but in reality it's one of the most competitive leagues in europe. Liecester and West Ham are showing that now.

In reply to Roadrunner6:

The Premier League didn't really change the structure of English football since it effectively carried on being the old first division. It was more about control especially with respect to lucrative TV finance.

This ESL stuff has been pretty spectacular in the speed with which it's come and gone. I find the fact that players and managers not having any warning about this rather gobsmacking. I see examples of poor strategic management in small companies but this is in large companies purportedly run by successful people.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

We had this sort of nonsense when the Rugby League Super league was formed. Entirely driven by a need to improve the spectacle for the customers, the men with bucks  rebranded the teams and interfered with the rules. Where does it all lead? All in wrestling. Lots of muscles and athleticism; zero interest. A league without relegation is just an all-stars circus like celebrities on ice. Just a chance to gaup at beautiful people. Who cares?

In reply to Roadrunner6:

News in:  All Prem League teams have sacked it off. 

We can now get back to discussing important stuff, namely will Wigan Latics stay up?  I say ‘yes’.  Push for Championship in a few years and beat Man City in an FA Cup game. 

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

OK, you may beat Citeh, but Leeds will chew you up and spit out the bits

In reply to Maggot:

Leeds are another team we always seem to beat. Well, nearly always.  Or at least a few times....

In reply to Andy Hardy:

The ESL are still saying this is/was an attempt to replace the Champions League because 'it isn't working'.

I'm not up with football politics, so can anyone enlighten me as to what, if anything, is 'wrong' with the Champions League?

In reply to Fredt:

Basically not enough money. And that you have to qualify.

In reply to Andy Hardy:

Classic banner seen at Chelsea last night:

‘We want our cold nights at Stoke back !’

In reply to Roadrunner6 and others!

I think it's unlikely the Premier League(or respective national leagues), FA or UEFA will be taking any action against the teams involved in this.  It was only ever an agreement in principal and a notice of their intention rather than any kind of legally binding contract or partnership, so I'm not sure they'll be able to punish them on that basis.

And in any case, these are the leagues biggest draws - the reason the premier league makes so much from broadcast rights is off the back of games like Man U vs Liverpool which has a huge amount of viewers the world over.  Sheffield Utd vs. Burnley on the other hand....

I can't see the premier league wanting to fine, deduct points from, or otherwise harm their biggest assets.

And it's because these teams know that that revenue is being generated off the back of their global fame that they've constantly argued for a bigger and bigger slice of the pie, and for UEFA to constantly change the rules of competitions to allow them to generate more and more revenue, for more control over the premier league. 

The idea of a European Super League (or a version of it) has been knocking around for the best part of 50 years, and has been trotted out as a threat every time UEFA has altered its competitions.  But this time, with clubs revenues being reduced due to Covid, banks lending rates being as low as they've ever been, and the odd quirk that many of these "big draw" teams aren't qualifying for the Champions league, some American owners who favour a no relegation format, it created a perfect storm which led to them going for it.  A sense of if not now, when, there's never been a better time.

Of course in doing this, they made a huge miscalculation they forgot about their fans and players and it's blown up in their faces.  That's this idea dead for the time being, but the way the bulk of the revenue is generated of the back of the few fixtures with global interest isn't going to change anytime soon, so those teams will keep pushing for more and more.  Though maybe not for a little while yet.