Elderly Prisoners

New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.

Hive mind alert. Does anyone have any penal system awareness?

Im trying to help my daughter who is doing her first year sociology and social policy degree.

She has to write a paper on the justification or not of holding elderly prisoners beyond when they are unlikely to pose a threat through frailty.  We can find good material/references on the justification for release but not for maintaining incarnation.

Does anyone have any thoughts on good places of reference or have any direct experience that would be good pointers to establishing the justification for imprisoning or keeping extremely frail convicts locked up who are so frail as to pose no possible public threat.

Post edited at 19:04
 subtle 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The prosecution of Nazi war criminals is always justified in my mind 

 Maggot 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

If a prisoner is that far gone and probably completely institutionalised, why not leave them where they are instead of dumping on regular social care?

Just a thought!

 65 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The case of Abdelbasset al-Megrahi might be worth her looking at.

Subtle: I totally agree on the nazi war criminal point, and I'd extend that to any war criminal.

 Babika 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Have a look at published Annual Independent Monitoring Board Reports for any prison. It's possible they may have some commentary on issues of elderly prisoners? 

Presumably the obvious issue for continued incarceration is justice. If the tariff provides for, say, 14 years then it shouldn't be variable depending on the age at the start. 

 elsewhere 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Something I saw in the news recently. Possibly relevant.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-59053668 

I think prison is supposed to be for punishment, rehabilitation, deterrence and protection.

If frail, the justification of protecting the public may be gone but the other 3 remain.

If senile, justification of punishment is gone if the brain that commited the crime is gone?

Post edited at 19:37
 subtle 01 Jan 2022
In reply to 65:

> The case of Abdelbasset al-Megrahi might be worth her looking at.

Are we sure it was him though? Don’t want to derail the thread though.

> Subtle: I totally agree on the nazi war criminal point, and I'd extend that to any war criminal.

True - just that the Nazi criminals of the last 15 years have all been of frail old people - they still need to be punished for their crimes 

 kipper12 01 Jan 2022
In reply to subtle:

As the son of a nazi forced labourer, I now struggle to see the point in putting on trial those who now remain from that era. My dad had a real hard time, followed by his country being stolen by the Soviet Union to boot.  This is a very personal view and I respect those who differ in opinion.

2
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Might be some useful stuff here https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm5801/cmselect/cmjust/304/30405.htm especially in terms of understanding the characteristics of older prisoners. Seems like there’s a lot of sex offenders. Tough question for first year undergraduate.

 Timmd 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

All I can think of is the argument (as mentioned above) of time spent in jail/punishment being required irrespective of age of conviction, that's the only 'justice related' argument I can think of, ie that it'd be unjust for people above a certain age to not be punished in the same manner as younger people, but obviously I can't know if that would be good enough for the marks.

I guess one could talk about how if they weren't put in prison, it may lead to crime becoming more appealing for people above a certain age, and in a similar way to young people being drawn into the illegal drugs trade, it may happen that more elderly people could either be exploited, or decide to turn to crime, but that feels a little bit tenuous as I'm writing it...

Post edited at 20:07
1
russellcampbell 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Before I retired I taught Modern Studies, a Scottish subject which is a mixture of Politics / Economics / Sociology. "Crime, Law and Order" was taught at Advanced Higher level and had a section on "Imprisonment." I contacted various Scottish prisons who were very keen to help. - Prison officers and governors visiting to talk to classes and answer questions. One even brought an elderly "lifer" with him. Visited a couple of prisons with pupils including Glasgow's Barlinnie. - Pupils were allowed to talk to prisoners, many of whom were older.

Has your daughter contacted any prisons? - A questionnaire might be a good idea.

In reply to subtle:

A former colleague of mine looked after Rudolph Hess twice when she was a military nurse at Spandau.

 Hovercraft 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Might there be something to do with equality legislation?  It’s not an area I have much expertise in but isn’t it unlawful to treat someone differently solely on the basis of age?

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Hive mind alert. Does anyone have any penal system awareness?

> Im trying to help my daughter who is doing her first year sociology and social policy degree.

> She has to write a paper on the justification or not of holding elderly prisoners beyond when they are unlikely to pose a threat through frailty.  We can find good material/references on the justification for release but not for maintaining incarnation.

Ukc pedants missed this beaut. Incarceration, obvs.

Btw. Thanks folks.

 Ridge 01 Jan 2022
In reply to Maggot:

> If a prisoner is that far gone and probably completely institutionalised, why not leave them where they are instead of dumping on regular social care?

> Just a thought!

They'll probably get far better care inside than they would in the outside world.

 Dax H 01 Jan 2022
In reply to Hovercraft:

> Might there be something to do with equality legislation?  It’s not an area I have much expertise in but isn’t it unlawful to treat someone differently solely on the basis of age?

Would age descrimantion (who do you spell that?) apply though. You can't force someone to retire based on their age but they have to be capable of doing their job. No longer being a threat to society or mentally far enough gone that you don't know your in prison is kind of like being medically unfit dig that hole, climb that ladder, write that medical study. 

 Timmd 01 Jan 2022
In reply to Ridge:

> They'll probably get far better care inside than they would in the outside world.

I've come across (in the US) elderly prisoners being suddenly released on parole as they start to look like becoming mentally and physically infirm, because of it being too costly and complicated to look after them behind bars. Which really sucks. 

Post edited at 21:25
 profitofdoom 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> Ukc pedants missed this beaut. Incarceration, obvs.

I didn't miss it! I saw it, but graciously let it go......

 Maggot 01 Jan 2022
In reply to Ridge:

> They'll probably get far better care inside than they would in the outside world.

Exactly the point, and they won't reoffend and end up in an endless cycle.

However, Care in the Community was supposed to be a good thing! Apparently.

 BusyLizzie 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I wonder if the Prison Reform Trust has any useful material on this interesting question?

 tomsan91 01 Jan 2022
In reply to subtle:

> True - just that the Nazi criminals of the last 15 years have all been of frail old people - they still need to be punished for their crimes 

Old, frail and a limited knowledge of rocket technology lands you in court these days. While your Sturmbannführer landed a nice little job at NASA. Always leaves a bitter taste in the mouth when you think about how many of them escaped the noose at Nuremberg.

1
 wintertree 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

She might ask the IMB if they would send a request for a meeting to discuss this subject on to some local volunteers.

She'd probably want to caveat that she would be asking zero questions about individuals or personal data, but wanting to discuss the general topic.

A close relative of mine worked with the IMB for a decade; if they were still around they would have been happy to discuss I think - the whole subject became very important to them. My discussions with them were very thought provoking. 

https://www.imb.org.uk

There are other volunteer groups that support prisoners who might have interesting insight; I know some are organised by various churches as well as more obvious groups.  

 girlymonkey 01 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Having spent a short spell working in elderly care during lockdown, it would be way above and beyond what you could expect a prison officer to do. Do prisons have dedicated care staff for elderly and disabled prisoners? Aside from moral or justice based considerations, the practical logistics of looking after elderly prisoners could be complicated.

 65 01 Jan 2022
In reply to subtle:

> Are we sure it was him though? Don’t want to derail the thread though.

Indeed, and that's a separate question, but he was found guilty irrespective whether the case was sound, and it's the process of compassionate release that may be of interest to the OP.

> True - just that the Nazi criminals of the last 15 years have all been of frail old people - they still need to be punished for their crimes 

I'm unconvinced by the point of punishment, but a reckoning and some sort of closure for victims and their descendants is essential.

 65 01 Jan 2022
In reply to russellcampbell:

> Before I retired I taught Modern Studies, a Scottish subject which is a mixture of Politics / Economics / Sociology. "Crime, Law and Order" was taught at Advanced Higher level and had a section on "Imprisonment."

It was taught at O-level when I was at school, and was my favourite subject, helped by a brilliant teacher and a lot going on at the time (The Iranian Revolution, Thatcher, Idi Amin).

 65 01 Jan 2022
In reply to kipper12:

> As the son of a nazi forced labourer, I now struggle to see the point in putting on trial those who now remain from that era. My dad had a real hard time, followed by his country being stolen by the Soviet Union to boot.  This is a very personal view and I respect those who differ in opinion.

There is a world of difference between a forced labourer and an agent of the regime doing the forcing, imho. There is massive interesting discussion potential here, made difficult by the understandably very emotive subject matter.

FWIW I gave you a like.

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Thanks folks. This is super!

Andy Gamisou 02 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Google scholar will be a good source of relevant papers on the topic 

https://scholar.google.co.uk/

 profitofdoom 02 Jan 2022
In reply to Andy Gamisou:

> Google scholar will be a good source of relevant papers on the topic 

I was going to suggest that, but didn't 

One good thing about Google Scholar is that you can go as deep as you like.  Or not, as you like. And the references / readings lead to a zillion more references/ readings 

 Trangia 02 Jan 2022
In reply to subtle:

> True - just that the Nazi criminals of the last 15 years have all been of frail old people - they still need to be punished for their crimes 

That's a difficult one. Bear in mind that anyone who was 17 in 1945 would now be 94. This was about the minimum age for conscription into the German Army, so any survivors would have served in very junior posts such as concentration camp guards. They would have been in no position to affect the concentration camp running or regime, they would have been too scared to disobey orders now seen as war crimes, for fear of being shot themselves. In addition to this a 17 year old is still just a big child, and in the case of Germany would have been the product of their education propaganda and upbringing eg  Hitler Youth. 

The real criminals, their superiors, are the ones who should have been punished, but they have avoided it throughout their lives and escaped punishment through natural death, leaving these ex kids to carry the can. Is that really moral? I don't know and not having suffered as the Jews and other concentration camp inmates did, so I am really in no position to judge, but the idea of putting a frail old person in prison for a crimes they committed nearly 80 years ago when those really responsible can no longer be held to account doesn't seem right. 

I suppose it would also depend on how much remorse, if any, they now show?

2
 deepsoup 02 Jan 2022
In reply to elsewhere:

> I think prison is supposed to be for punishment, rehabilitation, deterrence and protection.
> If frail, the justification of protecting the public may be gone but the other 3 remain.

I think rehabilitation is also a bit academic with somebody approaching the end of their life, but I agree that the question of what to do with elderly people serving prison sentences is in many ways a proxy for the question of what prison is actually for.

 TobyA 02 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I teach sociology (A level) and did some Social Policy courses as part of my Philosophy/Sociology first degree. It's a really interesting question but it strikes me really as a moral philosophy one, not a sociology one. I guess it is more on the social policy side of her course than the sociology one?

But my moral philosophy I simply mean that the justification for holding elderly people is that they were found guilty of a crime, and like someone said above, prison isn't only about public protection and rehabilitation, it is about a sense of legally controlled retribution and punishment. If they are let out early they are not being punished, and at least in some cases that would be seen widely as an injustice.

I googled "the purpose of prison" and the first thing that comes up is a speech from Gauke when he was Justice sec in 2018 https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/prisons-reform-speech He puts punishment above rehabilitation (although after public protection) in the role of prison. I reckon that's the obvious reason for maintaining the incarceration of some older convicted criminals, and then she could weigh that against all the good arguments (many noted above) on practical advantages of paroling them early. Good luck!

 Duncan Bourne 02 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Two cases spring immediately to mind and may be worth looking up.

Myra Hindley and Ian Brady - public outcry but also even frail they could still have been a threat and expressions of remorse were treated as attemts to manipulate. Technically Brady spent most of his time in a psychiatric hospital but it amounts to the same thing.

And the Kray's whose track record of violence within prison ensured they stayed there despite a minor celebrity campaign

 jonny taylor 02 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Some great suggestions from everyone. Not to put a damper on things, but for a 1st year essay it's worth keeping things in perspective - the suggestions of e.g. sending a questionnaire to a prison are probably not appropriate and proportionate (putting a burden on others) unless they have been specifically encouraged to do that sort of thing - and especially if every student in the class has been set the same or equivalent essay topic. But great suggestion to see if there are organisations out there (e.g. Prison Reform Trust suggested by BusyLizzie) that have information your daughter can draw on.

Post edited at 11:41
In reply to jonny taylor and the thread:

> Some great suggestions from everyone. Not to put a damper on things, but for a 1st year essay it's worth keeping things in perspective - the suggestions of e.g. sending a questionnaire to a prison are probably not appropriate and proportionate (putting a burden on others) unless they have been specifically encouraged to do that sort of thing - and especially if every student in the class has been set the same or equivalent essay topic. But great suggestion to see if there are organisations out there (e.g. Prison Reform Trust suggested by BusyLizzie) that have information your daughter can draw on.

Hi Jonny, you are correct, this level at this stage isnt required but thanks to the poster who suggested it.

To the rest of you, if you wanted to see the best in UKC, here it is. We have the pointers we need but feel free to continue discussing it too - it is an interesting subject for sure.

 aln 02 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Punishment. 

 off-duty 03 Jan 2022
In reply to jonny taylor:

Anecdotally I'd suspect that a large proportion of elderly prisoners are sex offenders, particularly of historic offences where victims haven't come forward for 10 to 20+ years.

Not sure where that would take her essay, but it's worth considering that the date of conviction for the offence and the date of offending might not be related.

 Martin Hore 04 Jan 2022
In reply to deepsoup:

> I think prison is supposed to be for punishment, rehabilitation, deterrence and protection.
> If frail, the justification of protecting the public may be gone but the other 3 remain

>I think rehabilitation is also a bit academic with somebody approaching the end of their life, but I agree that the question of what to do with elderly people serving prison sentences is in many ways a proxy for the question of what prison is actually for.

You've hit the nail on the head there. Prison does indeed serve those 4 purposes, but is only essential in respect of public protection. We should IMO be investing more effort to develop effective alternatives in respect of punishment, rehabilitation and deterrence, and reserve prison for those from whom we need protection. Easier said than done I appreciate, but I'm not sure how much is actually being done.

Martin

1
 Babika 04 Jan 2022
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Having suggested that your daughter look at the Independent Monitoring Board Annual Reports I thought I'd have a look at them myself. 

Alrhough the essay is probably in the bag now I was quite surprised to discover how much info they give on the issues relating to elderly prisoners. For example at Littlehey Prison almost 50% are over 50 and 17% over 65. That is a much higher proportion than I imagined. And it's good to see that inadequacies of the system - and potential strategies - are discussed. 

It's been a few years since I've been inside but for up to date info the IMB reports are quite helpful. 

In reply to Babika:

Thanks Babika. I'll pass it on nonetheless.

Message from my wife. 'Thank you everyone. Its heartwarming to have such a response from a group of strangers'.


New Topic
This topic has been archived, and won't accept reply postings.
Loading Notifications...