Durness/Tongue spaceport

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 Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018

UK govt has just announced approval for construction of a spaceport on the peninsula between Durness and Tongue: https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2018/jul/16/spaceport-receives-go-ahead.... For context, that's about 18 miles from Cape Wrath, Foinaven, and Sandwood Bay.

This makes me rather sad. It's a couple of years since I was last in that part of Scotland. I loved the wild remoteness of it, and I hoped it might stay like that, but apparently not. Nearby the Strathy South wind "farm" was approved a couple of months ago, so that's the Croft House bothy and the surrounding area gone in a couple of years.

I know that people have to work, climate change is real, and space is cool. But it feels like places are just being lost piecemeal, and it's happening more and more frequently.

Thoughts?

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

I would love to watch a rocket launch in person but can’t commit the time, expense and waste of going to Florida around a launch window.

So from that sense I’d love a facility in the UK.

Econonically I am not so sure - we are a long way from launch costs, satellite costs and lifetime operational costs from being so low that it’s cheaper to launch from the UK than wherever.

The leaves “assured access to space” and “being able to launch stuff without the Americans, Russians or EU handling it” as actual reasons for building a spaceport.  I think for these an aircraft launched rocket (small - Virgin Orbital, big - Stratolaunch) should be considered, as it will run out of a conventional airfield and allows much more flexibility in terms of weather than a fixed field in the North Atlantic about as far from the equator (which is bad for rocketry) as you can get in the UK.

 Doug 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Anyone know anything about the infrastructure needed for a spaceport ? I suspect the upgrading of the road network may have a larger impact than the port itself.

MarkJH 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> ....much more flexibility in terms of weather than a fixed field in the North Atlantic about as far from the equator (which is bad for rocketry) as you can get in the UK.

Only if you are aiming for a low inclination orbit.  For a polar (or other highly inclined) orbit, then a high latitude launch site is more efficient.  I presume that this would be a fairly niche launch site, but I can see that it could be economically viable.

 

Post edited at 11:03
 summo 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

I thought rockets had already been launched from the UK, but perhaps these were smaller than those planned. 

The equator issue; Swedens spaceport is inside the artic circle and has been functioning for decades. I think remoteness might be beneficial when it comes to rocket testing etc..  also stable weather, which I'm not sure the Scottish option offers. 

Rigid Raider 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Could the dualling of the A9 be connected with this decision? We all know how governments both local and national love back-scratching on projects.

 nufkin 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

I gathered that the closer to the equator a launch site could be placed the better, on account of the extra speed given to a rocket from the planet's spin. Maybe this doesn't matter so much if they're not planning on heavy launches, but it still seems like somewhere in Cornwall might have been better

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Doug:

> Anyone know anything about the infrastructure needed for a spaceport ? I suspect the upgrading of the road network may have a larger impact than the port itself.

You need a ma-hooo-sive concrete base, the groundwork alone before the pour took multiple years for the new coastal Boca Chica site SpaceX are building in Texas.

You need some bomb proof bunkers.

You need large freshwater tanks for the sound dampening deluge system, along with a way to fill them.

You need a way to bring the rocket in, especially the long first stages - either a decent road with no low bridges or a dock for a big boat.

You need tanks for the cryogenic liquid oxygen (LOX) and the kerosine or in the future liquid methane fuels.  You also need lorries for them - it’s unlikely to be a big enough facility to merit on site LOX production.

You need a second site several miles away with a lot of fire engines, hazmat teams (satellite manoeuvring propellants are evil thing), and debris proof bunkering for all their crews.

I’m sure there’s a lot I haven’t thought off...

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

> Only if you are aiming for a low inclination orbit.  For a polar (or other highly inclined) orbit, then a high latitude launch site is more efficient.  I presume that this would be a fairly niche launch site, but I can see that it could be economically viable.

Very true.  A lot of the money making small sattelite stuff is going to be Earth observation and a polar orbit is handy for those.  Also for some “assured access to space” government business...

MarkJH 16 Jul 2018
In reply to nufkin:

> I gathered that the closer to the equator a launch site could be placed the better, on account of the extra speed given to a rocket from the planet's spin. Maybe this doesn't matter so much if they're not planning on heavy launches, but it still seems like somewhere in Cornwall might have been better

Only if the spin is going in the right direction.  Otherwise you have to cancel it during the launch.  For high inclination orbits (particularly if they are retrograde ) a high latitude launch site is more fuel efficient.  This is undoubtedly what the proposed spaceport in Scotland would be used for.

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to summo:

> I thought rockets had already been launched from the UK, but perhaps these were smaller than those planned. 

No.  The black knight series were run up to full power on a launchpad in Spadeaddam for tests but were then shipped to Australia for actual launch.  I thin Spadeaddam is also where the epically awesome Top Gear Reliant Robin model space shuttle launched...  The launch pad is still there with occasional public tours.

> The equator issue; Swedens spaceport is inside the artic circle and has been functioning for decades. 

I thought it was just non-orbital “sounding” rockets there; I could be wrong.  You can launch from anywhere but for non-post orbits you can launch more mass on a given rocket closer to the equator.

Agree totally about the weather.

 

OP Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Rigid Raider:

> Could the dualling of the A9 be connected with this decision? We all know how governments both local and national love back-scratching on projects.

I don't know. The A9 ends at Thurso, which is 70 miles to the east.

In terms of getting launch vehicles and fuel to the site, the cost road west of Armadale is fairly slow going. It might be cheaper to build a port at the launch site than to truck things in from Turso/Scrabster.

Or maybe the plan is to dual-lane the whole north coast road all the way to Durness? And then why stop there?

Footloose 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Now, where's the furthest we can get from London for the site? Oh, that's got to be Cape Wrath; OK, let's put it there. Give the HIE £2.5m to play with, they'll love that. (£2.5m? Is that going to be enough?)

Economically it's a very depressed area and could use the income; weather-wise (and so lifestyle-wise), it's a very hostile environment  - 100+ mph winds happen suddenly and frequently, and you have to be very hardy to live here; aesthetically and geologically it's a stunning landscape that needs to be protected, as well as A'Mhoine being a SSSI. The UK's most breathtaking beach is within spitting distance (no, I'm not talking about Sandwood) and the very essence of the whole county is its remoteness.

The roads were good once, but they've taken a real hammering from fish trucks and the NC500, as well as from the weather, and there are bridges to be crossed whichever way you go. Access will surely have to be by sea.

There aren't many of us in this part of Sutherland, but you have to be a bit of a Luddite to live here at all. Some of us have to drive 5-10 miles (depending on the weather) to pick up email. Maybe a spaceport would bring us lots of little luxuries like broadband and supermarkets; but maybe some of us are not sure we want to buy into the high-tech, if-it's-possible-we-must-need-it culture that will do so?

OP Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018
In reply to nufkin:

High latitude sites are good for retrograde and polar orbits. Less eastward momentum to remove.

The problem with launching into a conventional orbit from Cornwall is that your launch path is over the South of England, with dense population areas.

But my post wasn't really about the tech...

Post edited at 11:41
pasbury 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> This makes me rather sad. It's a couple of years since I was last in that part of Scotland. I loved the wild remoteness of it, and I hoped it might stay like that, but apparently not. Nearby the Strathy South wind "farm" was approved a couple of months ago, so that's the Croft House bothy and the surrounding area gone in a couple of years.

> I know that people have to work, climate change is real, and space is cool. But it feels like places are just being lost piecemeal, and it's happening more and more frequently.

> Thoughts?

My emotional response is sadness too. I'm sure many people get all excited about watching big rockets blast off into space but I just see it as another place of beauty lost forever. And all just to make a geopolitical gesture.

The visual impact in terms of where it will be 'visible from' will surely be huge.

Post edited at 11:39
MarkJH 16 Jul 2018
In reply to pasbury:

> The visual impact in terms of where it will be 'visible from' will surely be huge.

 

Don't be so sure.  We aren't talking about ISS resupply rockets, or missions to mars here.  The facility will be aimed at putting very small instrument payloads into low earth orbit (sub 200kg according to the manufacturers website).  A comparable launch site in New Zealand looks like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electron_(rocket)#/media/File:Rocket_Lab_Laun... .  Hardly distinguishable from a small farm at first glance.  "Spaceport" sounds grand, but we really are entering a new era in what can be done with very small rockets.

Post edited at 11:52
 Tringa 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Makes me sad too. I understand the suggested potential economic benefits, but in very large and complex projects how many jobs go to local rather than specialist workers? Some very good points made in Wintertree's post and also about the impact of the not infrequent, 'interesting' weather.

I did not know the area was an SSSI, not, as we have seen recently not that far away, it makes any difference at all.

There is still very large remote areas in Scotland but sometimes it seems they are being nibbled away.

Dave

1
OP Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

Here's a real pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP7ER0UUMAA9bXI.jpg. Personally I suspect the place might have looked better before the site was built.

Post edited at 12:17
 NottsRich 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Unhappy is how I feel about putting a space port in northern Scotland!

"The international space sector is growing and we want to ensure the region is ready to reap the economic benefits that will be generated from this fantastic opportunity" - Charlotte Wright.

When will we stop looking at the natural environment in terms of economic benefit, and start to look at it as an important habitat, amongst other things.

On a more practical note, how much are space launches inhibited by poor weather? Sutherland doesn't seem a particuarly sensible choice in that respect...

 

 

pasbury 16 Jul 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

OK it looks like some of the illustrations I'd seen were a little more sci-fi!

Isn't there a large recently decommissioned site a bit further east that could be used .

MarkJH 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> Here's a real pic: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DP7ER0UUMAA9bXI.jpg. Personally I suspect the place might have looked better before the site was built.

 

Sure, but that was just to give scale.  The proposed site in Durness is actually slightly smaller, and there are already much larger man-made sites (farms etc) on the peninsula. My only point was that it is likely to have far less of an impact on the landscape than many people would imagine on first hearing the news.

 

Post edited at 12:27
 krikoman 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> I’m sure there’s a lot I haven’t thought off...

A place with reasonable and predictable weather conditions?

 

 Tom Last 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

For those of you that mentioned Cornwall. Cornwall IS going to be the launch point for the horizontal take off craft, at Newquay Airport. It was announced today - or last night. Only non-vertical launches, with Virgin Orbital.

 Tom Last 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Here’s the Cornwall side of things.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=2013966545303852&id=1336832...

 

That said those concerned were asked at the press launch last week whether a deal had actually been signed and it appears not to be the case. We were told - more or less - that Cornwall Council, Spaceport Cornwall and Virgin Orbital were “moving forward” with it.  

Post edited at 14:06
 Tom Last 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

 

Re between Durness and Tongue. 

Guess we might lose access to a few crags up there? Might need to climb ‘See the Artic Bear’ then, before it’s too late.

Post edited at 14:08
cb294 16 Jul 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

The Norwegian spaceport near Andnes and the Swedish one near Gällivare are also smaller than your average airport. 

CB

In reply to Andy Johnson:

On the one hand, there's a sense of loss in that a place that's wild and lonely will soon become less so.  On the other, it's good for the UK that we have this, good for Scotland, and good for the north coast in that it will bring jobs, people and skills.  North Uist and Shetland too may see some benefits.

Balancing both those points of view, my mind comes down as being greatly in favour.  

T.

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 Rob Parsons 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Tom Last:

>Here’s the Cornwall side of things.

I love this quote:

"While space tourism is likely to remain marginal in Cornwall, intercontinental travel is a more likely development. With the right technology and investment, space planes could be developed and launched from Newquay, taking passengers and goods via the edge of space from the UK to Australia in as little as four hours.

"That's time it currently takes to travel from Cornwall to London by train."

Yes, all that, and jetpacks for all. Not forgetting fusion power either - should be only a decade away now ...

I see that Branson's involved. Good luck with that one.

 Tom Last 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

Has Branson actually got anything Into orbit yet? 

1
 Rob Parsons 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Tom Last:

Nope. Nor have his 'real soon now' sub-orbital trips taken off.

Here's a related article: https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2018/03/new-mexicos-sad-bet-...

 Chris_Mellor 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

And mine, I'm afraid, comes down to being greatly against the idea. I don't go to the Durness-Tongue area to see anything but remote and lightly farmed/populated wilderness.

C.

 Chris_Mellor 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Tom Last:

Only his spinning ego.

C.

 Red Rover 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Being near the equator is great if you want an equatorial orbit, but most people don't always want that. If you look at a map of launch sites around the world some of them are much further away than Scotland. 

 

https://goo.gl/images/18GxFt

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> Yes, all that, and jetpacks for all. Not forgetting fusion power either - should be only a decade away now ...

To be fair, whilst the technology for air breathing hypersonic spaceplanes has been in development for about as long as fusion power, it’s much closer to being a reality than fusion power.  

I can’t see the current “preferred” (ie has most of the money) route of large Tokomak fusion delivering power within 30 years.  The materials and technologies just aren’t there yet.  

Whereas after the SABRE tests a few years ago, it’s a case of investment, business plans and building the damn thing for hypersonic spaceflight and point to point flight.  A flight test engine is under construction now, although I’ve got no idea what the UK could possibly hang it off to test it, perhaps we’ll finally build the Avto 730.  Or more likely the yanks will test it for us.

The problem is the business plan for such a craft looks less and less good with the march towards giant reusable rockets in America.

 Ramblin dave 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Yes, I'm in two minds about this - although I like to be able to visit the North West and wander around marvelling at the wildness and emptiness of everything, I'm also aware that there are local people trying to create jobs and maintain a sustainable, living community there and that has to be balanced against my desire to see as much wilderness as possible. Especially in the context of a "wilderness" that was actually significantly less wild a couple of hundred years ago but had most of its population forcibly evicted in an act of cultural genocide by southern landowners.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Which is fair enough.  Wildness and wilderness is something to be treasured and preserved, and I understand concern about something of it being lost as this site develops. 

The argument that has to be made to politicians is that as well as something good coming from this, for the UK, Scotland and that particular area, something is also being lost.  As a small part of the country becomes a place of industry, technology and innovation, there should also be a counterbalance with something being done to preserve wildness somewhere else, or even make an area wilder still by cutting off access.  If it is necessary for the UK's national economy that we develop spaceports, is it not also necessary for the country's health, its mindset, self-image, call it what you will, that we make an area less accessible?

If so, where?  It's easy for me sitting in soft summer Somerset to say for example that the road to Kinloch Hourn might be ripped up, but where would you choose to make less easy to access to help preserve wildness?

It's something to put on the agendas of various bodies, I think.  If it's rejected as an idea then at least that decision has been taken rather than overlooked.

T.

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

> but where would you choose to make less easy to access to help preserve wildness

Aircraft launch flying out of an existing military airfield.  

In reply to wintertree:

Indeed.  But rockets aren't going to.

T.

 jkarran 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> The leaves “assured access to space” and “being able to launch stuff without the Americans, Russians or EU handling it” as actual reasons for building a spaceport.  I think for these an aircraft launched rocket (small - Virgin Orbital, big - Stratolaunch) should be considered, as it will run out of a conventional airfield and allows much more flexibility in terms of weather than a fixed field in the North Atlantic about as far from the equator (which is bad for rocketry) as you can get in the UK.

Yeah but one of those is a multi-billion pound project that will spiral out of control for decades delivering nothing before it's cancelled and a 99% completed project is weighed for scrap. The other is essentially a road improvement program, some concrete pads and a few sheds.

jk

Post edited at 16:21
 Rob Parsons 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> I can’t see the current “preferred” (ie has most of the money) route of large Tokomak fusion delivering power within 30 years ...

My 'decade away' comment was tongue-in-cheek: fusion power has famously been 'a decade away' for the past sixty years. (I still hope we get there, mind.)

> Whereas after the SABRE tests a few years ago, it’s a case of investment, business plans and building the damn thing ...

I'm old enough to remember the HOTOL hype in the '80s.

 

OP Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

> It's something to put on the agendas of various bodies, I think.  If it's rejected as an idea then at least that decision has been taken rather than overlooked.

That idea won't be rejected. Because it won't be make it onto the agenda of anyone with any power. Because there is no money or votes to be gained from doing so, and no money or votes to be gained from changing the system so that there is.

1
 FactorXXX 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> I’m sure there’s a lot I haven’t thought off...

Burger van?

 

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

> Indeed.  But rockets aren't going to.

> T.

No I mean aircraft launched rockets, with the aircraft flying from conventional airfields.  Sorry I could have been significantly clearer there!

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Rob Parsons:

> My 'decade away' comment was tongue-in-cheek: fusion power has famously been 'a decade away' for the past sixty years. (I still hope we get there, mind.)

I’m with you there.

> I'm old enough to remember the HOTOL hype in the '80s.

Me to, but like fusion this project has always been a decade away - but now I really beleive it is almost a real decade away as Skylon.

 

 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to jkarran:

> Yeah but one of those is a multi-billion pound project that will spiral out of control for decades delivering nothing before it's cancelled and a 99% completed project is weighed for scrap.

Perhaps.  I can’t see Stratolaunch dragging on for more than a year or two if it doesn’t fly.  

OSC are already airlaunching payloads in the same class this spaceport targets, using their Pegasus rocket.   This system could fly out of dozens of UK airports.

 

In reply to Andy Johnson:

There is a lot of NIJBY, not in jocks back yard. This happens a lot in wild places, visitor want the area preserved in aspic, just in case they visit again in the next few years, if the weather is OK and they don't get invited to the double barrels villa again.

The reality is these areas need jobs. The far north of Scotland has a large raft of talented technical employees working in various aspects of the energy sector. Once Dounreay has been defueled and decommissioned, Wick and Thurso become ex steel or ex mining towns unless alternatives can be found. Developments such as this, the renewables research, the undersea server pods etc will go some way to preserving the community.

What this means to the occasional visitor is that the North Coast does not become banjo country should you manage to tear yourselves away from the draws of tuscany. Who knows you may be able to eat quinoa rather than bridie and chips. 

9
OP Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> There is a lot of NIJBY, not in jocks back yard. This happens a lot in wild places, visitor want the area preserved in aspic, just in case they visit again in the next few years, if the weather is OK and they don't get invited to the double barrels villa again.

> The reality is these areas need jobs. The far north of Scotland has a large raft of talented technical employees working in various aspects of the energy sector. Once Dounreay has been defueled and decommissioned, Wick and Thurso become ex steel or ex mining towns unless alternatives can be found. Developments such as this, the renewables research, the undersea server pods etc will go some way to preserving the community.

> What this means to the occasional visitor is that the North Coast does not become banjo country should you manage to tear yourselves away from the draws of tuscany. Who knows you may be able to eat quinoa rather than bridie and chips. 

Whatever you think you know about me seems to be all wrong. I don't know anyone with a villa. I do visit places (like Scotland) even if the weather is bad. I've never been to Tuscany, and probably never will, and I don't eat quinoa. I don't know where you got that bs from, but it doesn't amount to an argument.

Post edited at 20:36
 wintertree 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> and I don't eat quinoa.

I didn’t even know what quinoa was.  Having googled it I can’t say I see the appeal.

Removed User 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Here's a report that includes an artist's impression of the site: https://www.theengineer.co.uk/lockheed-martin-spaceport-scotland/

If it is reasonably accurate then the impact on the landscape should be modest but from what I can gather it will be sited such that it will be visible from the village of Tongue. I'd hope that the road isn't turned into something enormous. I wonder whether there are plans to supply it by sea. It's just round the corner from Loch Eribol which was a marshalling site for Arctic convoys in WW II and IIRC there is still some infrastructure there for loading and unloading ships.

OP Andy Johnson 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> > and I don't eat quinoa.

> I didn’t even know what quinoa was.  Having googled it I can’t say I see the appeal.

I used to know someone who claimed to have eaten it once.

In reply to Andy Johnson:

My answer was to the thread not you personally. However if you wish to take offence go ahead. 

As a resident of the lake district, who occasionally works in the far north, I recognise that these areas need real jobs to maintain their communities. Sometimes this comes at the cost of short term upset to some visitors. The impact of the loss of industry and the effects this would have on the local towns and villages causes much longer term upset and in turn impacts more significantly on the tourist industry. No one wants to holiday in a boarded up, heron riddled ex steel town do they?

Developments such as a space port will help keep the community stable, reducing the anticipated brain/economic drain.

Enough of that I am off to the kitchen for some artisan olives and a can of iron bru. 

1
 aln 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> No one wants to holiday in a heron riddled

I would!

 skog 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

> No one wants to holiday in a boarded up, heron riddled ex steel town do they?

I don't know, I think they're pretty cool.

The way they stand there almost motionless in the water, sometimes just on one leg, maintaining it for hours - and, occasionally, snatching a fish right out of the water - that has always impressed me.

And I associate them with holidays by the seaside. Particularly Mull; there's usually one there at Bunessan whenever I drive past.


Edit - damn, too slow.

Post edited at 21:12
 jkarran 16 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it can't be done but Britain is not going to be doing it, certainly not brexit Britain.

jk

Removed User 16 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Isn't the A'Moine peninsula where Tom Patey died climbing the Maidens?

Why wouldn't they build the thing next to Dounrey and closer to a population that might service it? It seems utterly crazy that they would pick that spot with almost zero access.

Post edited at 22:45
MarkJH 17 Jul 2018
In reply to Removed User:

> Why wouldn't they build the thing next to Dounrey and closer to a population that might service it? It seems utterly crazy that they would pick that spot with almost zero access.

If they did it would severely limit the launch azimuth as they could not launch over inhabited islands such as the Orkney islands.

 

Removed User 17 Jul 2018
In reply to MarkJH:

Ok. Not able to point it a little to the west then? Tough to tell the exact angle of the dangle but I don't think Dounrey is in direct line with the Orkney islands (depending of course on what angle you take from it )

Seriously though, I get why the have chosen the spot but I wonder at the practicalities. Its at least an hour and a half out of Thurso so, from a jobs perspective, not that much closer than Inverness. It is really remote for any kind of emergency services, it truly doesn't have a road into it at the moment and it remains a wonderfully special place in the world.

If its local job creation they are after I doubt the cost benefit analysis would stack up.

In reply to Andy Johnson:

If Alan Clark was still alive it would not get a second thought 

In reply to Footloose:

Wasn't aces by sea the way the (super) quary was going to get around planning 15 or so years ago  

when the plan was to quary the hill above Durness 

Even with sea aces the road s will see hundreds of extra movmemts evry day

 PM 17 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

> Thoughts?

It could be a lot worse: they could be building a golf course there instead.

Removed User 17 Jul 2018
In reply to PM:

> It could be a lot worse: they could be building a golf course there instead.


Durness already has one

 Chris_Mellor 17 Jul 2018
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Solidly good points you make here.

C.

Removed User 18 Jul 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

This, from the book "The Inconvenient Indian" by Thomas King:

"I understand that these projects generate much needed revenues for many Aboriginal communities who are living at poverty levels. But I also know that once the resource is gone and the dumps are filled, all that Native people will have to pass on to their children will be a blasted and poisoned landscape"

 

In reply to Removed User:

Or the poison could be passed over generations earlier through deprivation. 

1
 cander 18 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

I’d have put it at Carlisle airport, probably gives it a better chance of regular scheduled flights than it has at present.

(in joke for the Cumbrian’s amongst us)

 skog 19 Jul 2018
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Re superquarry - not something I'm aware of.

Are you perhaps confusing Furness with Lingerbay on the Isle of Harris?

pasbury 19 Jul 2018
In reply to Removed User:

It’s interesting isn’t it that the best way to stimulate the economy of a remote community is to parachute a high tech rocket launching site onto them? Is there nothing else that might have more lasting value and be more appropriate to the area and would probably cost a lot less

In reply to pasbury:

Cherry picking, there is a lot more to it than the remote nature. 

 wintertree 19 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Also, it’s not a spaceport.

A spaceport will be a port where vehicles launch and land, going to and from space.

This looks like a pure launch facility,

1
 skog 19 Jul 2018
In reply to skog:

> Are you perhaps confusing Furness with Lingerbay on the Isle of Harris?

...which would at least be better than calling Durness Furness. :-/

pasbury 19 Jul 2018
In reply to Presley Whippet:

You’re being a bit cryptic, explain please?

In reply to Andy Johnson:

Yes, the development of a space port on the north coast makes anyone sad who has gone to the north west for peace and quiet and who feel a great affinity to the landscape.

However, two points.

The North Coast 500 is probably changing/ destroying that quality far more than any proposed spaceport will. 

Secondly, if you read the history of the Highlands, James Hunter and Andy Wightman are good places to start, you would realise that the emptiness is only about 150 years old. The glens were once full of people. The quiet solitude could also be described as desolate. The clearances and the shooting estates of the 19th century have created the landscape today. 

As visitors we like the emptiness of the landscape. As more visitors come it ceases to be what it temporarily was.

Do we want the north west to be a national park? What development should be allowed? How many people should be allowed in? 

Thanks for raising the issue on the forum. 

 rogerwebb 20 Jul 2018
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

 

> The North Coast 500 is probably changing/ destroying that quality far more than any proposed spaceport will. 

Yes

 kwoods 20 Jul 2018
In reply to Heartinthe highlands:

James Hunter has been one of my favourite authors of the past couple of years.

My initial reaction to this is spaceport that I bet the impact will be a lot smaller than people suppose.

My real gripe with the far flung corners of Scotland is that they are essentially left to disintegrate until the powers that be decide they have a use for them. So we have roads falling apart and no internet in sight of the wind turbines, the hydro, the 'spaceport'. I do not see that chronic lack of investment as a quality, I see it as a mark of a country that is failing its people.

I don't view that developing a place economically is especially at odds with the natural world: the last four or five decades of Sleat, and the money Iain Noble ploughed into it, seems indicative of this.

What I do think is a shame is that the outdoor world as a whole has taken that quietude as nothing but a sacrosanct quality to the point there seems no alternative. In my view the mountains should be left alone, but empty glens is a different story altogether. I'd personally like to see the government push investment in these places, but they seem to just sit and wait for the EU to do so. Oh wait...

A bit of a deviation there, but I think it is important in the context of this development.

In reply to skog:

Think this will be of interest .  It talks of the quarry I was  thinking of ,

I'm not familiar with the particulars, but remember it being the subject of much talk localaly 

At the time .

I note from below Highland council paid £55k for a report on lands that had changed owners 

For a sum of 45k  ( that how to invest in a local area ..............) The particular area being Arups board room.

From the Guardian Sun 24 Oct 1999 01.14 BST

A bid this week by the crofters of Laid in Sutherland to buy their common grazings looks certain to be gazumped. Ian Wilson, the current estate factor, has told The Observer that he plans a buyout of the whole Durness estate.

The seven families of the small hamlet have called on the Scottish Executive land reform committee to help them in their fight for control of one-third of the estate.

They had believed their bid was threated by a Lichten stein-based company which planned a superquarry at Loch Eriboll. When those plans were shelved, the local community vowed to fight any proposals for a smaller mining operation.

Laid is scattered along the west side of Loch Eriboll, in the far west corner of Sutherland. The community believes the problems it faces highlight the weakness of the Executive's proposed land reform legislation.

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Their story encapsulates many of the problems of Highland land ownership. The estate was bought in 1988 by Vibel SA, a Lichtenstein company. The deal was done in the comfort of a lawyer's office in Belgium, where £45,000 was paid to the previous owner, Sijtze Kats, for more than 9,000 acres of the Durness estate .

However, Kats retained 45 per cent of the mineral rights, the rest going to Vibel SA. Two years later the idea of a superquarry appeared in the Highland Region Structure Plan of 1990. The mountain behind Laid, Beinn Ceannabeinne was said to have millions of tonnes of road building aggregate.

In 1994, Highland Regional Council spent £50,000 on a superquarry viability report from the international con sultants Ove Arup. The conclusion was unambiguous: 'No further consideration should be given to the development for aggregate use of the rock resources.' There was not enough rock, it was too expensive to extract and mining would do too much damage to the environment, said the report.

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Since then the people of Laid have set about rescuing their community from economic and social death. The school house which once had 41 pupils on the roll closed in 1955 and by 1992 only three families lived there.

In 1994, Ove Arup recommended that as an alternative to quarrying, 'a future economic strategy could be realistically built upon its existing natural resources'. That is what happened.

Seven families live there today, with three more set to move in. It is a recovery typical of the 'new' highlands. Most of the families are incomers, from Southern Scotland, England and Norway. They have diversified the economy to include salmon farming, mussel and oyster beds alongside tourism and a proposed heritage trail.

Now they plan to launch a hostile bid to shareholders and buy their common grazings, 2,300 acres of rough land stretching up from sea shore to the skyline. They intend to submit a bid for the land to Vibel SA to be considered by Vibel's shareholders.

They admit it's a gamble. Under Liechtenstein's laws, it is impossible to check if Vibel have any shareholders. Wilson, currently acting for Vibel, told The Observer that Vibel's involvment would soon become 'totally academic'. Kenny Mcrae, head of Durness Community Council, said: 'Wilson is planning to buy out Vibel.'

The Crofting Trust Advisory Service has given the Laid crofters funding for a report into the bid, which will be prepared by Simon Fraser, who was involved in the community buy-out of Eigg.

Wilson has a long history of trying to develop Scotland's mineral resources. He owns the mineral rights to the proposed superquarry at Lingerbay on Harris.

The Executive's land reform white paper only allows for communities to buy their land when it comes on the open market. There is no provision for buy-outs like the one proposed.

The Observer has learnt that Highland Council has re-drafted its structure plan. The new draft excludes the possibility of a superquarry, but does allow for a smaller mine. At a meeting on Thursday night, Laid residents voted to oppose any mining activity. The council will vote on the new wording on at a meeting on 11 November.

'We want to protect this near perfect environment. We are making Laid successful without tearing the land apart and polluting the loch,' says Kenneth McKenzie Hillcoat, the chairman of the common grazings committee. They say any mining would require cargo ships to remove the stone, and the effect would be to damage the environment and ruin the tourism potential of the area.

Wilson has already said the bid was 'not something that the estate would find acceptable'. He told The Observ er that after he has announced his plans he will still resist a Laid bid and he is determined to develop the whole estate. He has accused the people of Laid of 'asset stripping' the Durness estate.

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Post edited at 11:00
Removed User 23 Jul 2018
In reply to kwoods:

If you polled the people of Durness or Bettyhill or Melvich, you would get a range of views. The same with the crofting community throughout the North Highlands who are notoriously divided on many issues. But the truth is that most of the people who live in these communities aren't looking for the industrialisation of the highlands on order to provide an economically viable situation. Most would prefer to be able to make a good living from the locally available resources that don't destroy the existing status quo.

Post edited at 02:57
 Dr.S at work 23 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Does the presence of the firing range off cape wrath, and this facility:

https://www.ltpa.co.uk/SitesAndRanges/Hebrides

have any bearing on the proposal to site the launch facility here?

 wercat 24 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

sounds as if it would be comparable to preparing Kishorn for construction of Ninian Central in the 1970s.

One of the conditions there was that it should be treated as an "island" site and that as much infrastructure and transport should be on a maritime basis rather than by road (Hence the rather large Howard Doris Marine Department with their nice white and blue paintwork)

 

Post edited at 09:56
 skog 24 Jul 2018
In reply to Name Changed 34:

Thanks for this, I was completely unaware that had happened!

 skog 24 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

It occurs that this whole Sutherland Space Port thing is probably being proposed mostly so that if there's another independence referendum soon, they can say 'oh, but you'll lose the spaceport'.

Once any such referendum, or the threat of such, is out of the way, the idea will most likely be scaled back or abandoned.

cf. Clyde shipbuilding promises last time round.

2
 alan.rodger 24 Jul 2018
In reply to Andy Johnson:

The site is designated as an internationally important landscape after extensive national, regional and local consultation - see the LDPlan. A rudimentary site search should have discounted it as one of the last places to propose puting this facility. If jumbos can launch every 5 minutes from city airports then finding a more appropriate and acceptable site should be no problem.

Let's hope the planning process and Highland Council do the right thing here.

I would expect a host of environmental agencies, interest groups and individuals to be objecting to the planning app.

2
 Dr.S at work 24 Jul 2018
In reply to skog:

Tinfoil hat time Skog? It seems a pretty cheap thing to build, no real reason why an iScotland would not build it, especially with a strong micro sat business in Scotland already.

 skog 24 Jul 2018
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Ach, maybe, it just has a familiar ring to it and seems a bit of an odd place to build anything major, between the transport links and the weather.

I'd bet you a fiver nothing comes of it, but we'd be hanging on a good few years before finding out!

 wercat 25 Jul 2018
In reply to cander:

or Spadeadam!

 wercat 25 Jul 2018
In reply to wintertree:

>Spadeadam

is one of 2 EW ranges available in Europe and a very interesting place for a tour - landscape used to hold an old Blue Streak and has lots of military hardware from Silkworm systems to Soviet era and more modern stuff together with the ability to generate the corresponding threat signature for the benefit of visiting aircraft.  IIRC they have an ATC capability which was demonstrated to us during our visit when a Harrier contacted on approach quite some miles out and almost immediately roared over the installation.

 

Post edited at 09:11
 cander 25 Jul 2018
In reply to wercat:

Wooosh!


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