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Driving to France

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 Ciro 11 Jan 2021
 nniff 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Why am I not surprised....

 The Lemming 11 Jan 2021
In reply to nniff:

Its OK.

Gove is on the case and he now realises the gravity of the situation.

Post edited at 18:48
 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Bit of a misleading title?

In reply to Ciro:

The bastards. I get extremely defensive about my sandwiches.

Mind you, this has the makings of a siege with small time officials and bureaucrats effectively clotting up our supply lines.

Not my fault mind, I've always been open and friendly with our overseas neighbours, even voting remain 😉

@Baron - I recall you being a prolifically vocal brexiter, what do you make of all this?

 DerwentDiluted 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

I'll be sure to declare any Gammon I'm travelling with.

 Ciro 11 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

> Bit of a misleading title?

I don't normally drive to Holland but the same should apply.

 Timmd 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Does anybody know who originally came up with the 'project fear' label?

In reply to Timmd:

Some prick or other. Where's baron gone?

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Phantom Disliker:.

> Some prick or other. Where's baron gone?

19.02 on this thread.

Do try to keep up.

In reply to baron:

Still obfuscating then... Replying only to the questions that suit you. Jolly good 👍🏼

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

> Still obfuscating then... Replying only to the questions that suit you. Jolly good 👍🏼

Thanks

In reply to baron:

You're welcome 🇪🇺

 tintinandpip 11 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

I do like a bit of Baron action: let’s face it without you many of these threads would be very dull. 
I think we all have bigger issues to deal with then having our butties confiscated ! 

Post edited at 21:39
 Cobra_Head 11 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

> Bit of a misleading title?


You should litigate.

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to tintinandpip:

> I do like a bit of Baron action: let’s face it without you many of these threads would be very dull. 

> I think we all have bigger issues to deal with then having our butties confiscated ! 

I need a find something more useful to do with my time.

That shouldn’t be too difficult! 😀

 derryclimbs 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

I once had some vegemite confiscated when boarding a plane in Dusseldorf. 

Same flight, my friend who was carrying a load of duty-free alcohol was told he couldn't take it on board (as it was a connecting flight). He proceeded to take a massive glug from each bottle, offer it to everyone else in the customs queue, and then spit in each bottle, declaring in German "If I can't have it, you certainly cant".

In reply to baron:

> I need a find something more useful to do with my time.

> That shouldn’t be too difficult! 😀

What do you do for a living, I'm genuinely interested?

In reply to Phantom Disliker:

> What do you do for a living, I'm genuinely interested?

Customs import/export documentation service provider...?

;-)

In reply to captain paranoia:

> Customs import/export documentation service provider...?

Hedge fund investor?

A lawyer of some kind?

If just a troll I will be disappointed 😔

In reply to captain paranoia:

Purveyor of 2nd hand Sandwiches?

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Customs import/export documentation service provider...?

> ;-)

That’s funny.

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

> What do you do for a living, I'm genuinely interested?

I’m retired.

 baron 11 Jan 2021

Indeed.

In reply to Cobra_Head:

> You should litigate.

Indeed.

Where’s the ECJ when you need it?

In reply to baron:

> I’m retired.

Gloating over the chaotic state we're now in is just a hobby then is it.

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

> Gloating over the chaotic state we're now in is just a hobby then is it.

Gloating?

I think you have mistaken me for someone else.

In reply to baron:

No regrets ? You're happy with how things are going?

 baron 11 Jan 2021
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

> No regrets ? You're happy with how things are going?

Ask me in a few months time.

In reply to Ciro:

Sounds like my plans for a Dutch picnic have been ham-pered. Apparently if you don't comply you'll baguette it later and be really cheesed off.

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

So what's the logic? Preventing lorry drivers from selling these sandwiches to EU citizens without paying the required duty?

Lets look at it like progressive cannabis law, decriminalise sandwiches if they are clearly for personal use (up to 3 sandwiches) but more than that clearly there is an intent to supply.

What a ninny world we live in now. People trying to leverage ham sandwiches for a political ends, we are a very failed society.

In reply to baron:

> I need a find something more useful to do with my time.

> That shouldn’t be too difficult! 😀

Under lockdown, options limited.

In reply to TomD89:

But they are the rules we signed up for. No unknown dairy or meat imports. Same as if you catch a flight to Oz. Can hardly complain now, we can get a GHIC and Blue Passports!!

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to JoshOvki:

I just imagine the existential crisis I'd be having after confiscating the 5000th ham sandwich, imagining all the wasted food. Did I prevent any crime? Did these actions benefit anyone? 

I am getting flashbacks to people suggesting Brexit could lead to destablisation of Europe and ultimately war, so losing a cheese and pickle is a reasonable step down from that. Or is sandwich confiscation the cassus belli that starts it all? 

 Ciro 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

As Josh says, it's nothing political on the EU's part - they have rules about food, ensuring unkown animal origin products from 3rd countries where standards might be different are not allowed in, to prevent the spread of disease.

We have them too - although we may not choose to enforce them at Dover.

We chose to depart the EU so that we could vary our standards. In order to allow us an exception from the rules, they would have to monitor our behaviour to make sure we were still safe - why bother monitoring us when they can just apply the existing rules?

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

English man in truck

A mighty hunger springs forth

Border man took ham

In reply to TomD89:

I don't imagine the border staff can be arsed with it either, but the Dutch didn't ask for it...

Yes it prevented a crime (importation of unknown origin meat and dairy products), no it probably didn't benefit anyone.

What do you expect the Dutch border staff to do? Ignore the rules and risk their jobs?

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> So what's the logic? Preventing lorry drivers from selling these sandwiches to EU citizens without paying the required duty?

> Lets look at it like progressive cannabis law, decriminalise sandwiches if they are clearly for personal use (up to 3 sandwiches) but more than that clearly there is an intent to supply.

> What a ninny world we live in now. People trying to leverage ham sandwiches for a political ends, we are a very failed society.

This is a rule that was in force at UK customs until 31/12/20. It was not legal to bring in meat / dairy products from non EU countries. It is still illegal to bring in meat products from non-EU countries as I write, there being an exemption for EU countries as we currently share the same agreed standards.

Details here

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/personal-food-plant-and-animal-product-imports#:~:text=You%20cannot%20bring%20in%3A,feed%20needed%20for%20medical%20reasons

Its nothing to do with possession with intent to supply, nothing to do with EU ninny state, its a public health matter. It has been the case for many years that you could not bring meat products into the EU; the UK left the EU, it is now a "third country". 

But "we" are now free of the EU imposing their silly laws on us. "We" won, get over it.

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I just imagine the existential crisis I'd be having after confiscating the 5000th ham sandwich, imagining all the wasted food. Did I prevent any crime? Did these actions benefit anyone? 

Yes you did prevent a crime; that of bringing meat products into the EU. Yes these actions benefitted people by maintaining food standards, and guaranteeing that potentially contaminated product didnt get in to your food chain on your watch.

> I am getting flashbacks to people suggesting Brexit could lead to destablisation of Europe and ultimately war, so losing a cheese and pickle is a reasonable step down from that. Or is sandwich confiscation the cassus belli that starts it all? 

Again, think of it in a broader sense. The EU have changed nothing. The UK has left the EU, and is free to develop its own rules and standards. Or stay in line with EU standards, and come to an agreement with them on acceptance of each others products. Building a kind of customs union, and then eventually, potentially, a single market. Who knows where it could lead........

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

I said ninny world. How quickly people are jumping to defend the EU from my frankly silly responses is even more funny to me.

I imagine this news has really changed some peoples stance politically, if only it was made clear before the vote that ham sandwiches would be wasted, we might have seen a different result.

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I said ninny world. How quickly people are jumping to defend the EU from my frankly silly responses is even more funny to me.

You did, where did I say otherwise? Nobody is "defending" the EU in this, just having a go at those who seem to think its the EU who are somehow doing something different.......

> I imagine this news has really changed some peoples stance politically, if only it was made clear before the vote that ham sandwiches would be wasted, we might have seen a different result.

i dont think so; its just one example of where people accepted without question the lies that were spread by vote leave, and any counter was dismissed as project fear. Being unable to bring meat / dairy into the EU has been a thing for many, many years. There are many many other examples that will hit the news until we get bored of them. Just wait until covid dies down and travel becomes possible again......there are a myriad of regulations we will be subject to as non-EU citizens that will cause additional cost / effort on foreign trips. Eventually many will realise they have been had. Eventually many will realise that they significantly underestimated the day to day benefits that membership of the EU brought.

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

My dude. Clearly the statement...

> I imagine this news has really changed some peoples stance politically, if only it was made clear before the vote that ham sandwiches would be wasted, we might have seen a different result.

...was sarcastic. 

I even said I was being silly and you've given me another generic 'well this is what you can expect for leaving the EU' reply. We may as well program AI to generate these replies and save ourselves the work.

In reply to TomD89:

>  Or is sandwich confiscation the cassus belli that starts it all? 

The French once went to war with Mexico over patisserie, and given the exquisiteness of such works of art as the mille-feuille and Paris-Brest, no wonder. The  sandwich may be a more humble creation, but it's one of our few culinary gifts to the world so it's our patriotic duty to defend it. An Englishman's ham is his castle.

In reply to baron:

> Ask me in a few months time.

I was hoping you'd give a more spirited defence of an Englishman's right to his meat. You could be the Baron of Beef.

 Enty 12 Jan 2021
In reply to baron:

I have to say, I do respect you for not rubbing our noses in all the brexit success stories.

E

 Bilberry 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Enty:

> I have to say, I do respect you for not rubbing our noses in all the brexit success stories.

> E


Yes.  It's getting dull seeing so many of them all the time

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to JoshOvki:

At this stage I can truly say I don't expect anyone to do anything, nor would any individual or institutional action surprise me. If your continued employment is subject to whether or not you are willing to confiscate ham sandwiches, what can you say? What stance could a sentient being take on such a banal and trivial issue other than sick amusement? To take a strong stance on this either way is a sign that you have gone wrong somewhere.

I'd call it Kafkaesque, but I don't think even he would have the ability convey the subtle bureaucratic horror of a future where ham sandwiches become a divisive political issue between allied nations.

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

I wonder if they have sniffer dogs to detect foreign meats...

"The sandwich as we know it was popularized in England in 1762 by John Montagu, the 4th Earl of Sandwich. Legend has it, and most food historians agree, that Montagu had a substantial gambling problem that led him to spend hours on end at the card table."

Perhaps the sandwich is a symbol of the modern condition, being too busy for the important things in life.

In reply to TomD89:

But we had a year to transition, why shouldn't the rules now be followed? This is exactly what people voted for. If your job is to inspect imports meet a certain set of rules, and you don't inspect imports to make sure they meeting a certain set of rules, you are not doing your job. If you are not doing your job, then of course you should get fired. They haven't done anything, they are just using the same rules as any other third country. What is so hard to understand about that?
 

Post edited at 10:15
In reply to TomD89:

> I wonder if they have sniffer dogs to detect foreign meats...

Some countries do use dogs to detect food being "smuggled in". Often a sandwich, or an apple etc for someones lunch on an aeroplane (Australia for example)

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to JoshOvki:

I think this thread has broken me free of the mundane. I can see a vision of a utopian future whereby men of all races, creeds and faiths can enjoy the sandwich of their choice anywhere, free from political coercion.

You may say I'm a dreamer...

In reply to TomD89:

I guess if you don't like it you can always ask your MP to look into a trade deal with the EU for meat and dairy products contained between 2 slices of bread? Ideally with a bit of pickle.

On a side note I wonder if it had been a jam or peanut butter sandwich if it would have had similar import issues.

 Bacon Butty 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

Looks like any future trips to Europe for me are scuppered.

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to JoshOvki:

I do think Boris put too much time in fishing rights, when obviously this is the bigger fish to fry!

Quoting the article:

"One driver coming off the ferry from Britain with ham sandwiches wrapped in tinfoil was heard pleading with the border guard: “Can you take the meat and leave me the bread?”

The official replied: “No, everything will be confiscated – welcome to the Brexit, sir. I’m sorry.”"

This seems cruel and unusual to me. Truly heartless to rob a hungry pleading man of his last piece of bread. Is applying meat import and export standards to bread to be considered a breach of international law? Is there a clause of a subsection dedicated to "when bread has touched animal produce from a overseas territory it is, in itself, to be considered an animal product"

The rising existential horror is palpable. Does anyone else feel it? Imagining the hundreds of thousands of hours of human life spent in debating and transcribing such things. Gives me the willies.

Post edited at 10:47
 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I wonder if they have sniffer dogs to detect foreign meats...

Oh, we do (at heathrow for eg).

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I think this thread has broken me free of the mundane. I can see a vision of a utopian future whereby men of all races, creeds and faiths can enjoy the sandwich of their choice anywhere, free from political coercion.

> You may say I'm a dreamer...

Sounds not too far from EU membership........

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Bacon Butty:

With a name like that they'll be ripping the bodywork open to find your stash.

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I do think Boris put too much time in fishing rights, when obviously this is the bigger fish to fry!

He absolutely did! (And f**ked that up as well). 

> Quoting the article:

> "One driver coming off the ferry from Britain with ham sandwiches wrapped in tinfoil was heard pleading with the border guard: “Can you take the meat and leave me the bread?”

> The official replied: “No, everything will be confiscated – welcome to the Brexit, sir. I’m sorry.”"

> This seems cruel and unusual to me. Truly heartless to rob a hungry pleading man of his last piece of bread. Is applying meat import and export standards to bread to be considered a breach of international law? Is there a clause of a subsection dedicated to "when bread has touched animal produce from a overseas territory it is, in itself, to be considered an animal product"

Why cruel and unusual? He broke the rules, which had not changed, and were / are quite clear......

> The rising existential horror is palpable. Does anyone else feel it? Imagining the hundreds of thousands of hours of human life spent in debating and transcribing such things. Gives me the willies.

Makes you wonder why we bothered leaving.......as before, the sandwich is just a bit unfortunate. wait until the bigger stuff hits the fan. Suh as the difficulties in getting shellfish into the EU....

In reply to TomD89:

It did seem a bit bizarre not allowing him to take his bread back, and I imagine if it hadn't been built up into a sandwich it wouldn't have been a problem. As it came as a prepared items, the entire item would have been taken as a single object, and not as "2 pieces of bread, 3 slices of ham, 1 slice of cheese" etc. 

> The rising existential horror is palpable. Does anyone else feel it? Imagining the hundreds of thousands of hours of human life spent in debating and transcribing such things. Gives me the willies

Been feeling it for the last 4 - 5 years mate, but the UK voted for it etc.

In reply to Andy Clarke:

> An Englishman's ham is his castle.

Bravo! 

In reply to JoshOvki:

> On a side note I wonder if it had been a jam or peanut butter sandwich if it would have had similar import issues.

The article did only reference Products of Animal Origin, so you could be okay. 

Though, on the theme of non-animal sandwich fillings, I'm not looking forward to trying to explain vegetarian paté to a French official...  

 ThunderCat 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

See, for comedy effect they should have had another official following them with a trolley, replacing the confiscated British sandwiches with some french baguettes and a nice bit of brie.

 Flinticus 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Not enough of you watch those border control programmes! Australia Border Control, or US? Confiscation of food items is common place and designed to prevent spread of viruses, bacreria and biological pests.

In reply to Ian W:

>wait until the bigger stuff hits the fan. Suh as the difficulties in getting shellfish into the EU....

It's already happening. Apparently they're losing about 3 days and the customers are turning their noses up at it because it's not fresh enough. In other news, a Jersey boat tried to land wetfish in France and got turned back because they'd not got the correct signature on their documentation. They had to steam back to Jersey, get the signature, then return to land their catch.

 Timmd 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

> Not enough of you watch those border control programmes! Australia Border Control, or US? Confiscation of food items is common place and designed to prevent spread of viruses, bacreria and biological pests.

Yes it is. 

 Mark Bannan 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

Nice Haiku! 

If someone can do a Limerick about this, I would be even more impressed!

 TomD89 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Mark Bannan:

There was a truck driver left Dover,

packed a sandwich for when he was over.

Got into a barnie,

when the feds checked his sarnie

and was left with two slices plus Clover.

 didntcomelast 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Calm down, it’s Veganuary isn’t it so it’ll be fine next month??  

To be honest we tend to wait till we get to Europe before filling the fridge as the prices are lower and the choices far greater once across the channel.

In reply to baron:

> Ask me in a few months time.

I thought JRM said it would be 50 years?

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> There was a truck driver left Dover,

> packed a sandwich for when he was over.

> Got into a barnie,

> when the feds checked his sarnie

> and was left with two slices plus Clover.

now that is a very worthwhile contribution to the thread! Mighty impressed!

 Offwidth 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ian W:

A truck driver looked forward to lunch

Just after the Dutch  border punch

He discovered his ham

Was different from jam 

Saying "hey brexit regs, thanks a bunch"

 Ian W 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Offwidth:

Second place. Close but not quite.

 Ciro 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Flinticus:

Indeed, when I moved out to Australia I brought my pool cue with me... I had to join a queue to have it inspected to determine it wasn't dangerous to indigenous trees before I could enter.

Do they still come down the plane decontaminating everyone with a spray can before opening the doors?

 jimtitt 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Ciro:

One has been pulled out by a sniffer dog at Palermo airport and given the whole works, they train the dogs to ignore Italian ham but obviously home-cured Bavarian ham is more attractive!

In reply to Ciro:

A Brexit-mad trucker from Slough

Got down from his cab for some chow

But French cops took his meat, 

Said, "If you want to eat

It's jambon and pain for you now."

Post edited at 16:50
 fred99 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

> I was hoping you'd give a more spirited defence of an Englishman's right to his meat. You could be the Baron of Beef.

But "Beef" is from the French [boeuf]. Surely if we want to have our superior English meat we should say cow (and pig for pork [porc], sheep for mutton [mouton]) and so forth.

 fred99 12 Jan 2021
In reply to JoshOvki:

> I guess if you don't like it you can always ask your MP to look into a trade deal with the EU for meat and dairy products contained between 2 slices of bread? Ideally with a bit of pickle.

> On a side note I wonder if it had been a jam or peanut butter sandwich if it would have had similar import issues.

If there was any butter on the bread then that's still dairy .....

In reply to Ian W:

>  wait until the bigger stuff hits the fan. Suh as the difficulties in getting shellfish into the EU....

Update in today's Guardian:-

Scottish seafood firms and opposition politicians are pressing for the Treasury to compensate fishers and seafood exporters following a crisis due to new Brexit regulations and costs of exporting to the EU.

The industry body Scottish Seafood has reported about a third of the Scottish fleet is tied up in harbour, with some fish prices falling 80% yesterday, because the delays, costs and bureaucracy since 1 January has choked off exports.

Fishing bodies report time-sensitive live seafood, such as langoustine and crab, and fresh fish is failing to get to market on time because of delays with veterinary inspections or paperwork. Hauliers have stopped taking multiple consignments from different trawlers and suppliers on the same lorry, because government vets have to take off and inspect every box.

Live seafood has to get to market in Boulogne within 24 hours of being landed, or face being unsold. Some exporters said last week, as the teething problems first emerged, it was now taking three days.  James Withers, chief executive of Scotland Food and Drink, a trade body, tweeted that boats are now heading to Denmark to land their catches, rather than Scotland.  While that was quite normal when the UK was part of the EU, Withers argues this cuts even further the work for British fish processing firms and exporters at a time when work has fallen sharply. He tweeted this:

Alistair Carmichael, the Lib Dem MP for Orkney and Shetland, told Rishi Sunak, the chancellor, on Monday one exporter had told him of losing £50,000 worth of stock. Carmichael urged Sunak to introduce compensation schemes.

David Leiper, managing director of Seafood Ecosse, a wholesaler in Peterhead, told PoliticsHome the government had to compensate traders for their losses. “I would like to be reimbursed for the total failings in the government systems. Why should private companies take the pain for government incompetence?”

 Cobra_Head 12 Jan 2021
In reply to TomD89:

> I just imagine the existential crisis I'd be having after confiscating the 5000th ham sandwich, imagining all the wasted food. Did I prevent any crime? Did these actions benefit anyone? 

Foot in mouth was supposed brought into this country, by German ham sandwich IIRC.

Think how much that cost, not just in monetary terms but access issues too.

 fred99 12 Jan 2021
In reply to Toerag:

What are all those nice Scottish Fishermen complaining about, they got the Brexit they voted for didn't they .......

(Or if you like - f**k 'em)

In reply to fred99:

> But "Beef" is from the French [boeuf]. Surely if we want to have our superior English meat we should say cow (and pig for pork [porc], sheep for mutton [mouton]) and so forth.

Excellent points. Perhaps we need a Royal Commission on Linguistic Purity, to identify and outlaw all these foreign invasive pests, the verbal equivalents of grey squirrels and Japanese knotweed. Of course, we'd have to find alternative words for Royal, Commission and Purity. What did the Normans ever do for us?

 TomD89 13 Jan 2021
In reply to Andy Clarke:

Cow burger and pig chops are objectively funnier terms so I'm on board.

 Christy 13 Jan 2021
In reply to JoshOvki:

I think dairy is also an issue and it would be hard to take the butter off the bread.  This is nothing new.  The UK would have been prepared to do similar to someone travelling from the US (at least when still part of the EU, not sure if this is still the case but I suspect so).  I have seen a single apple confiscated going into the US. It will pop up more now that as truck drivers will take a packed lunch more often than plane journeys.

It will be annoying for the drivers.  Hopefully they can get a lunch budget when travelling across EU borders.


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