UKH

The onsight, our gold standard for measuring our performance. Apart from the speed, we go to great lengths to create novel challenges that could neither have been seen nor practiced before in our competitions. Most individual competitive sports seem to be standardized and so in our terms are essentially redpoint right? Team sports naturally create novel challenges I guess from the unpredictability of the other players.

Do any other sports share the onsight concept? 

I thought maybe some of the downhill sports could be but only if they had ways of preventing people practicing them and essentially "setting" new courses just for comps but I don't know if they run like that. Or maybe style sports like the park events for BMX/Skateboard? Maybe they get to practice the course though?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Wingsuiting certainly shares it. Do it first time or die. Kinda like pure onsighting. 

Onsighting isn't the gold standard for measuring my own performance tho. These days it's just about getting to the crag!

In reply to Holdtickler:

Kayaking?

In reply to Holdtickler:

slalom skiing gets new courses set for each run; not sure whether the racers get any info beforehand, but certainly there is no practice on the course.........

In reply to Bottom Clinger:

For olympics not 100% sure. There is some opportunity to practice as far as I am aware although I think the poles do get moved around a bit and so change it to some degree but not a course reconfiguration.

The UK sent someone out to Japan to have a look at the course so they could try and configure the Lee valley olympic course to be as close as possible to it.

In reply to snoop6060:

landing on the moon?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Shooting when in the enemy is seen.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Orienteering, things like the Dakar rally.

In reply to mondite:

Was thinking along the lines of paddling some white water without having a reccy first. 

Surfing?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Conkers. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

The hunger games

In reply to Holdtickler:

Competitive spearfishing

In reply to Holdtickler:

Obviously not a sport, but music exams include sight reading...

In reply to Holdtickler:

Competitive Tombstoning / cliff jumping?

I’ve seen first hand what happens when someone jumps without checking out the landing zone or watching others first.  The crumpling sound is going to stay with me for life. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

It doesn't really carry the same weight as onsighting in climbing, but there's definitely a bit of kudos if a skateboarder rolls up to a new spot and lands something good "first time".

Sometimes skaters will choose to do a trick that really has to be done first time, otherwise it has dire consequences youtube.com/watch?v=fbd_NplSsM0& and that's always seen as pretty gnarly.

However like I say, it's not the same as in climbing, where there are set routes and history etc.. Skateboarding is all a bit more freestyle... 

But then there's also "firsts" as in the first person to do a hard trick at a famous spot, so there will be some famous ledge or something, some one will 50-50 grind it (the easiest grind) , then over the years successive generations will do harder and harder stuff down it until someone just does something crazy like a switch flip bluntslide and nobody will ever better it!  It's a bit like climbers freeing routes that have only ever been aided I guess.  Doing the same thing at the same place, only a much harder way. 

This is a cool vid about a spot like that  youtube.com/watch?v=sdjX4PA0k0U& 

In reply to Ian W:

They can inspect the course on the hill but can't actively ski it. 

In reply to Nic Barber:

Ah yes. Thanks for that. So for the OP, thats about as similar to climbing as you can get wrt course / route knowledge; an observation / inspection period but no prior practice.

Any others? downhill mtb perhaps?

I'm aware motorcycle trials dont allow practice but they can walk the course (climb the course more like, i'd struggle to climb half of the obstacles never mind ride them on a motorbike....).

In reply to Holdtickler:

Chess? I know not a sport but tactically the outcome is unknown and you have a set amount of time to make your next move, which could be your downfall if you get it wrong. 

In reply to Iamgregp:

Oh and yes, in park sports like BMX and skateboarding the competitors get a fair amount of practice on the park before the event.  They need to figure out their lines and runs before the event, and get a feel for the obstacles.  It would make for some pretty boring viewing if they didn't!

In reply to Ian W:

Downhill you normally get to walk and ride it in advance.

Endura might not since it would be harder to set up but never tried it so dont know for sure.

In reply to jimtitt:

Orienteering is a really good shout.  Areas in which big comps are due to be held can be embargoed for months beforehand so that no-one can familiarise themselves with the terrain before the event.  And of course you (generally) only get to see your course on the map once you've already started your run.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Bog snorkling goes one better, the athletes don't even get to see the course when they're competing.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Hide and seek

In reply to Holdtickler:

Not really a mainstream sport (not sure what I'd class it as), but I remember helping someone set up a slackline across a fairly massive drop. He went across it first time without falling (was harnessed up) and actually called it an 'onsight walk'. He also climbed, which may have influenced his terminology though.

In reply to Ian W:

skiers slip the course before each race run so that they know what is comming. no 'race pace' practice but the equivalent of an 'absail inspection'!

in reply to the topic in general - yes, steep skiing. but we are all also mountaineers so the phrase comes over from climbing anyway. but 'onsight' descents are not sought out because they are percieved to be better, it is just sometimes more practical/enjoyable to climb one route and ski a different one instead of bootpacking up your desired line.

In reply to mondite:

Yes DH races always have practice sessions first, plus the course might not change from year to year anyway.

enduro on the otherhand are generally not allowed to practice, except on some particulalry gnarly sections which may be mandatory to practice first. but like in dh the course may not change from year to year by much, so riders may have prior knowledge.

for fun, people will ride courses/trails 'onsight', which they would call 'riding blind' or something to that effect, so i guess in freeride mtbing the concept of onsighting exists 

In reply to Holdtickler:

Glissading

In reply to chris_r:

This made me laugh so much

In reply to Webster:

Yup although I dont know many people who wont reride it again and faster once you know the trail (okay I know a couple who would ride it full out first time but they are the ones with a reserved bed at the local hospital).

Same with white water kayaking. Although there is credit to be gained from being the first to run a river there isnt really the novel challenges bit. Half the fun is once you find an interesting section is playing on it until bored or out of time.

In reply to Holdtickler:

Fell Running? No GPS allowed these days, someone could run a race with no prior knowledge of the route, others will reccy it or know every line. There isn’t much kudos associated with not reccying it though, it’s just seen as being ill prepared!

I’ve often wondered if anyone has done/could do an onsight solo Bob Graham Round? The nav and route choice in places (Bowfell, Scafell) would be very tricky and the number of possible contenders who have no knowledge of those lines would be very small.

In reply to Iamgregp:

Dunno why I got a dislike? I answered the question asked? 

In reply to Holdtickler:

So we're not alone then but I guess we do take it further than most other sports. A friend told me that in horse racing the course can ride differently from one day to the next (to which I asked who was doing the onsighting, the jockey or the horse?)

I bet it's a thing in parcour. A freestyle parcour event in the games in the future wouldn't surprise me. They can combine it with professional tig.

Dancing would be amusing if they had to just make it up on the hoof. 

In reply to Holdtickler:

Surely that would be dressage?

In reply to Holdtickler:

Exactly what do you mean by “take it further”? 

In reply to wercat:

Was that really onsight?  I would think the beta provided by Apollo 8 would make this a flash.

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

yes, you're right actually.  But you need also to credit Beta from Patrick Moore as well!

In reply to Holdtickler:

Is competitive paragliding a thing? I guess once you’ve got a sport that involves nature (e.g. thermals) then everything is kind of onsight.

Similar for surfing (in the sea).

But both of these don’t really offer the chance to flash or redpoint, so perhaps it’s not similar at all…

In reply to Holdtickler:

Cock fighting. 

In reply to Webster:

Swedish enduro series you can ride the courses the day before, they'll even have the chairlifts running which of course they won't on race day (for competitors ).

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Well with a lot of the other sports mentioned, they get to have practice runs or there may be a chance that some competitors are more familiar with the course or sections of it than others. Inspecting a course is similar to our observation rounds I guess. With unique setting for each comp, no practicing, isolation we control a lot of the factors to preserve that onsight format. The closest we get to familiarity is having trained on similar moves, angles, holds but it's always gonna be pretty pot luck.

In reply to Dave Todd:

Yeah, generally world cup level events have area embargoes from the moment the location is decided. You can still go in to run, but not with any form of map.

Also in team events and some big events, your map is taken off you at the finish and it's only once everyone has run you can collect it. Courses etc.. aren't published on livelox either, in the more recent advent of GPS watches etc where folk can download their route. 

In reply to James Malloch:

Yeah that's an interesting way of thinking about it with the randomness of nature creating onsight conditions. The flip side of that I guess is that with with constantly changing conditions then it becomes impossible to repeat/redpoint. Like a wave, you only get one chance to ride that wave, there will never be another identical one (granted I'm sure there will be similarities). I wonder then that if the permanence of our solid rock (bar choss) and the possibility of repeating creates that onus on the onsight in a strange roundabout way.

In reply to Holdtickler:

I think even the other sub-sports of climbing don’t share the trad onsight objective. The great days (weeks/months) are working problems and overcoming them. It’s nice to onsight stuff, but then it’s not necessarily at the limits of your capability. I guess to find comparable sport concepts to onsight, it’s necessary to find sports which mostly operate well within the capability envelope. I’m not saying this is necessarily the case, but it’s an interesting avenue of thought.

In reply to snoop6060:

Wingsuiters absolutely work their lines, at least the more reasonable ones do! They start flying them high with large margins of error, then get closer and closer until they've flown them as perfectly as they can. Some lines are 'do or die' and require the pilot to fly well straight away, but the majority have been perfected over time and committed to when the conditions and mindset are right.

In reply to Holdtickler:

You seem to be finding ways to refute every suggestion. You just really really really want climbing to be “unique” in this way, don’t you. Why? 

In reply to Holdtickler:

Losing one's virginity.

In reply to Holdtickler:

I'm a dancer (not competitive, although I did reach a level where I had to actively turn down the option to turn competitive) and I can tell you from first-hand experience that some ballroom & latin dancers practice a full, choreographed sequence or routine or, at best, a variety of choreographed sub-sequences that get stringed up into their performance and some, like I, practice leading and following and can build up their dance from atomic figures and elements, upon inspiration.

Perhaps the latter is a bit like on-sighting because that "inspiration" is nearly always a combination of whatever the music is making one want to do and whatever the floor geometry and positioning of others upon said floor is actually permitting you to fit into the space available. One also must take into consideration the likely future positions of other dancers -- it gets quite complex but it's all necessarily instinctive, after enough time on the floor.

The choreographed type is what one sees on Strictly and that is the sole reason why complete newbies can, in pratically no time at all, learn to accomplish the formiddible and thoroughly amazing spectacles that the show offers ... or used to ... many, many years ago ... when I last was interested in it.

There's no question that I consider the leading & following type to be the purest form of dancing and, as one gets to know certain dances really well, one also comes to the realisation that one can even break down things that most consider to be indivisible "figures" into smaller moves and improvise using those, as long as one ends up facing the right way on the right beat, in the right bit of the musical phrasing.

Also, certain faster ballroom dances do carry a not inconsiderable risk of falling. I've certainly had harder falls on the dance floor than most lead falls, climbing, and I've certainly lost more blood and toe-nails there than on rock.

In reply to Holdtickler:

this came up in a parkour video on YouTube today. the guy who mentions it does a bit of climbing so he's clued up i guess! at 4 minutes 45 he talks about ondra flashing 9a. youtube.com/watch?v=HRhF5F3SXOM&

In reply to Cobra_Head:

Depends who you lose it to.

In reply to Removed User:

To be fair the girl I lost mine to had been red pointing her virginity, with a number of repeats, for a couple of years at least.

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Not at all, just enjoying a conflict-free discussion

In reply to Holdtickler:

But by refuting all suggestions, you are putting the conflict in. How can you not see that? 

In reply to Blue Straggler: Maybe try and reread in a different tone. No agenda, just a friendly open discussion. It's nice to hear different people's take on it. I've suggested as many other sports as anyone else I think.

In reply to Holdtickler:

In my youth I used to throw shot put for my town club (and hammer but only on meets as we didn't have a cage). When I think back to it now, especially when compared to climbing, I find it hard to see how I found focus in such a repetitive sport for as long as I did. It's entirely standardised. The thing has so much momentum that weather conditions don't seem to make much difference. On a good session you might even add a couple of cm onto your PB! I look at climbing now where every different route, angle, rocktype, features, crag, conditions, beta etc. creates a seemingly infinite variability and almost feel sorry for my cannonball lobbing former self. 

What about from a spectating perspective then? Is it more interesting to watch an onsight individual sport? It's certainly one of the main reasons I much prefer boulder/lead over speed. Down the line I almost wonder whether people will be more drawn one day to sports like climbing and parkour than the traditional events like gymnastics. Climbing and parkour and dance are like "applied gymnastics" really. I think maybe we need to rebrand as "Wild Gymnastics"

In reply to Blue Straggler:

I guess then an improvised jam is like the teamsport version then.

In reply to Holdtickler:

As mentioned upthread, competitive spearfishing. I don’t need to read any of this in any particular “tone”, and this IS me being friendly. I am only stating that you seem to be refuting all suggestions, including your own, as if you really need climbing to be something extra-special, and I am asking why. I have seen similar on forums about other sports and activities. No need to get defensive about it. 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

there's no such thing as an onsight for most climbers anyway.

guidebook descriptions tell you plenty, and looking at it before setting off.

take me to the crag blindfold and set me off up a route not knowing anything; that's onsight.

In reply to Phil Lyon:

and where does Jesse Dufton (and others) fit into this? 😃

In reply to Holdtickler:

Bmx racing, that Dutch racer wasn't ready for that official in the middle of the course.

Not to mention the beginners ramp that was removed on the drop off on the mtb course. 

In reply to James Malloch:

Hmmm, with surfing every wave could be thought of as an "onsight" since each one will be different than the others, and they will change constantly with tide, wind, sand (at beaches/rivermouths), and swell.  How well you can react to those little differences in real time will determine how well you will ride the wave. Granted you will know asap whether you are dealing with Vdiffs or E5s, and each spot has its own unique shape and characteristics, but no 2 waves will behave exactly the same.  But to talk of 'flashing' a wave would be silly, you either ride it well, or shit.  If any tenuous analogy could be made between the two surfing is like speed climbing as the holds form above you as you go up the wall (except obviously not as hard as that).

I think whitewater kayaking would be the most similar since you are dealing with a set course which requires a certain set of moves to get through. Conditions of course will vary on the day, and you don't get a chance to study the whole river section in detail beforehand.  In fact, say you set off down a section of river not knowing anything about it, and are able to negotiate it perfectly first time, while in constant motion, no time to stop and think about moves, just react, then this in a way is superior to a climbing onsight, when routes can be studied, rests taken and moves considered.  But who knows if that's a thing, kayakers probably call running a river blind 'stupidity'.