UKH

Scotland's Chief Medical Officer visits her second home in Fife with her family.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/05/scotland-chief-medical-offi...

What a dreadful error of judgement. I'd be surprised if she were still in her job tomorrow.

It's quite hard to imagine the thought process, isn't it?

If I do this, I'm going to lose my job and suffer a degree of national shame that's beyond comprehension. Oh f*ck it, I might not get caught, where are the car keys?

Sounds great. I’ve booked my air b&b and heading off to enjoy the sun this week! 
 

On a serious note presumably she will also be receiving a court summons? 
 

edit.. just a warning. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52171694

The words "sword" and "fall on come" to mind.......

You might think that but I've just seen an apology from her on Twitter. It appears she has already spoken to the FM and it seems she still has a job.

If that's the case then surely this is a terrible error in judgement by the FM. If you want people to take the rules seriously you must take a zero tolerance approach to someone in her position flaunting the rules she been telling the rest of us to obey. Surely?

I do like the circularity.of the police advising her on her own advice!

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-52171694

She surely can`t stay? 

BBC Scotland news on now questioning FM and CMO for anyone interested.  CMO has admitted this is the second time she has not followed her own guidance.  

I wonder if the police will be knocking on Charlie's door too. 

In this case she has admitted it was a terrible error if judgement, I wonder how many more she has made but not been caught out on. 

We all make mistakes but this is clear cut do as I say not as I do. 

I actually don't care.  She drove from Edinburgh to Fife - not that far - and stayed overnight in an empty house.  Seems reasonable to check a house if you know it's likely to be unoccupied for a few months.  She didn't get within 2m of anybody else.  She's not infected.  So this is all about 'rules' nothing to do with risk.  It would be different if she'd gone shopping in Fife.

The cops, on the other hand, went to her house, advised her about stuff they basically know nothing about and handed her a warning.  That is actually an opportunity for virus transfer.  Cops are a risk group because their job involves coming in contact with people.  

Anybody sounding off about this should be giving Prince Charles and Matt Hancock 100x as much stick because they went out after testing positive and in situations where they were very likely to infect people.

You forgot someone else...

This is the same argument that people who have carried on going out into the Peak District. "im only nipping out for a bit, and staying out of everyone's way". The problem is that if everyone carried on like that there'd be people everywhere!

Also she didn't just stay overnight in an empty house did she? The photographs of her in the paper showed her walking across a golf course. 

She's literally telling the public that it's vitally important to stay indoors, no unnecessary travelling etc and doing the exact opposite, and your happy with that? 

Fair enough, but I'm not. 

I think you are missing the point.  It's not the details of what she did, it's the fact that she personally and from a position of authority told others, in no uncertain terms, not to do it. If this type of behaviour does not warrant resigning or being sacked I'm not sure what does.  In one single selfish act she has undermined the authority of the whole lock down.

Al

sorry Tom but I do care.  She not only went against the current guidelines but, she is one of the most highly placed advocates of such guidance.  We, certainly in Scotland, are bombarded with her presence in the media - TV, radio, print and digital - telling us, amongst other things, not to undertake any unnecessary travel.

In my opinion, she should step down as spokesperson for the Scottish Government regarding Coronavirus and all current information involving her should be stopped/withdrawn from the media. I have no problem with her continuing to work in the background as, despite this stupid behaviour, she is, apparently, good at the other aspects of her job.

Oh, and I have, in other places, given a, similar, significant amount of stick for their stupidity to Prince Charles and Matt Hancock.

And while this is going on Hancock is lecturing the nation like naughty children that he'll take our outside exercise away if we go out and risk catching a disease that both he and his boss managed to get, despite having direct access to the latest medical advice.

You couldn't make it up.

While you've lost the plot most people are compiling. Medical and healthcare staff are dying and you don't care. Grow up.

In my opinion, she should step down as spokesperson for the Scottish Government regarding Coronavirus and all current information involving her should be stopped/withdrawn from the media. I have no problem with her continuing to work in the background as, despite this stupid behaviour, she is, apparently, good at the other aspects of her job.

I think that this is a good solution - it is clear she has a key role in the advice but being the face of the message will not work from now on.

Ignoring her own guidance and is bad and everything and she should probably be for the sack but......

Who buys a holiday home in Fife?????

As I mentioned this incident first in a thread in The Pub this morning I thought I'd add a bit. At first the Scottish Government made a supportive statement -

"Earlier a Scottish government spokesman said Dr Calderwood had been working seven days a week preparing Scotland's response to the Covid-19 crisis and she decided to check on the family home in Fife as she would not be back until after the lockdown.

"She stayed overnight before returning to Edinburgh," he added.

"In line with guidance she stayed within her own household group and observed appropriate social distancing with anyone she was in passing in the village."

I'm guessing someone within the SG pointed out that

(a) the SG should be clear in its support for staying at home(which is missing from the above), and

(b) the statement would give carte blanche to anyone to go anywhere as long as they could say they had .." observed appropriate social distancing..." ,

so an apology was necessary if they wanted to keep any credibility.

The apology was straightforward though as she was bang to rights it could be little else.

It is a stupid thing for anyone to do in the present situation especially someone in her position but I don't think it is a resigning issue.

Dave 

Aye, I know,  but 'Holiday Home' and 'Fife' in the same sentence.??

So not only has she been found out but she's now admitted: 

"Dr Catherine Calderwood confirms that as well as this weekend, she was also at her second home in Fife with her husband last weekend.

"I did not follow the advice I am giving to others and I am truly sorry for that," she said."

That's OK then. Just as long as you only do it twice and don't get found out. And say sorry! A real headache for the boys in blue now that everyone and their dug has that excuse.

Perhaps Dr Calderwood should also advise HM GOV on 5G!

Looks like you were ahead of the news there!

This post is beyond belief even by your own standards. It actually makes me quite angry. We could all use similar reasoning to drive all over the country doing lots of things we'd rather be doing rather than diligently doing our bit by sticking to the government's instructions. 

How do you know she hasn't got the virus? The whole f*cking point is that none of us without symptoms know whether we've got the virus - that's the point of the measures we are complying with. 

I've been impressed by the way the Scottish government has been handling things and it must be massively frustrating for The First Minister to be undermined like this.

To me it is very, very clear Calderwood should resign or be sacked to bring the message home that her behaviour has been intolerable.

While she has indeed been flaunting the rules, her offence was flouting them! 

The East Neuk of Fife is very picturesque of its type.. Not, perhaps, where you'd choose to live as a climber, but the villages and coast are lovely.

*Lovely, ken eh?

and why not Dominic Scummings?

She's got the qualifications and knowledge to form a view on whether what she did was increasing risk and she thought it was safe.  On the facts - driving in a car, going to an empty house, not going anywhere near anyone else, it was safe.  

There's plenty of examples of people doing things which are definitely dangerous and getting far less hassle for it.  Like Hancock coming out of quarantine early and sneezing and coughing near other people or Charles travelling with an entourage when he knew he had caught it.

The authority of the lockdown comes from the physics and biology of virus spread.  If you want to argue for or against the rules you need to start from the science.

She has actually been withdrawn from the briefings and as the public face of the advertising but she's keeping her job.  As long as she's giving good scientific advice I don't have a problem with that.  I'm more worried about the English advisers going against WHO rules and pushing for controlled infection of most of the population like first world war generals.

Excellent, so it'll be fine for me to get away into the hills for a few days then. 

Simplistic bullsh*t with a side order of emotional claptrap and you can't even spell.

Please be quiet.

There's a surprise.

If it was up to me and you figured out a reasonable plan for doing it which didn't involve going near anybody else then why not. 

Of course it isn't up to me.  But my philosophy would be there's no point in stopping people doing something they want to do unless there is a risk involved.  I'd like more education on how transmissionn occurs and less enforcement of arbitrary rules.

If this is going to last for up to 18 months we need to apply it intelligently and jealousy should not come into it.  I am far more worried about people queuing up to get into supermarkets than someone walking on a infrequently climbed munro or sitting on a beach 50m from anyone else.   Focus on where virus could actually be transmitted.

why not indeed!  I'd, sort of, forgotten about him since he ran away ... my apologies

Well, there is a compelling scientific argument.

Well you'll know better than anyone, apparently.

They were unnecessary journeys. 90 mile round trips.  Not coming into contact with anyone is irrelevant.

First one, a dirty weekend with hubby; second, lovely weather, take the whole family for a weekend by the seaside.

I have nothing but contempt!

PS, have you got any links to any fanatical Nationalist meeja sites, could do with a laugh?

At least she (hopefully) didn't catch it or pass it on.   Which is what it's all about.

I could very, very easily figure out such a plan, but the trouble is that if everyone else did too it wouldn't work. That is why we have blanket rules.

It grinds my gears that some people don't take this seriously, but if the CMO herself does not follow the rules, then I am dumbfounded. 

I get that everyone is experiencing rough times right now and politicians are no different. Sturgeon's message was clear, life should not be normal right now. If I am changing my lifestyle, I would expect everyone else to do the same. 

We need to be in this together or there's no point in this otherwise. I am afraid people will get fed up of this and will go back to their normal. 

You really are an unpleasant and truly dim arsehole aren't you?

It’s against her own advice she’s been telling  everyone to follow. 

A bit harsh. I don't think Tom's dim 

I think we can all imagine Tom's response if this had been Chris Whitty rather than a Scottish official.

Indeed. What a total arse. Everything to him is about Scotland, I don't think he cares about anyone else in the universe. Virus? what virus?

A complete tw*t.

Bit like Prince Charles,  then, really

I wouldn't be too sure of that Ridge, the guy obviously has some kind of manic agenda. He hates the English and anyone north of the border can do no wrong apparently.

Even if they are Health Minister and disobeying their own recommendations to the rest of the population.

How more obvious could it be?

The guy is a tosser and we should from now on ignore him.

Chris Whitty caught it and probably spread it.

Which petrol station did she use?

I am far more worried about people queuing up to get into supermarkets than someone walking on a infrequently climbed munro or sitting on a beach 50m from anyone else.   Focus on where virus could actually be transmitted.

The thing is Tom in Edinburgh people need to eat. They don't NEED to go to a beach or mountain.

People don't WANT to queue in a supermarket. They need to eat.

Isn't it obvious? We need to stop this virus.

His is a pretty essential job. I imagine he caught it going his job.

By breaking his own rules almost certainly.

Anyone who can't work from home is more likely to catch it. Would you say the same about shop workers, teachers supervising the children of essential workers?

That would be fine -- so long as she was advising everyone else that they could make similar decisions.

Indirectly she is, people seeing this will think that if she can make a judgment on the safety of traveling when she not only has access to all the facts but also advises the government then it must be safe for me to travel too. 

The press conference today was considered a disaster.

youtube.com/watch?v=_mRHuQDjVvM&

She has finally resigned, and rightly so in my opinion. 

Barbeg

It's a pity, she was very good until she destroyed her credibility.

It's not what it's all about as this thread very well demonstrates. Leadership in this crisis is about maintaining social order, about solidarity as much as technical advice and rules. High profile people flouting rules chip away at their authority, they erode our ability to act as a collective. This hastens the imposition of harsher restrictions with all the risks and consequences they bring.

jk

If she'd followed her own advice she definitely wouldn't catch it or pass it on. Which is what it's all about.

He almost certainly caught it from someone at work. My FD's Bro in law is a civil servant high up in the Dept of Health, and he was hospitalised just over 2 weeks ago, well before Whitty was even diagnosed. I suppose if any govt department was to get it, thats the most likely.

......And she's resigned. Had to really.

The 'rules' are about reducing contact with other people, they are a means to an end but the end is what is important.   I think people should take the rules, think about them in conjunction with the underlying goal of reducing contact and act to reduce risk.

Example: you are only allowed out once per day to go shopping.   You go out and there is what looks like a 30 minute queue in front of the supermarket.

If you wait the queue you are taking a large risk, you are in proximity to people for a long period.  Even if they are trying to keep 2m separation the time factor makes it risky.  The rules say this is what you should do because you are only allowed out once.

If you go home and come out again later at a less sociable hour when there is no queue you have broken the rules but reduced the risk. 

If we give people freedom to bend the rules you allow them to find a more optimal solution both in terms of reducing risk and in terms of achieving their own needs.

But supermarkets don't need to organise things to create queues.   For example, Edinburgh Leisure has a thing on their website where you can see whether a swimming pool is busy before you go,  amusement parks with long lines for rides often have a pre-booking system where you can get a time slot in advance.

We need to accelerate the pace of adaptations which reduce social contact.

Yes, we do and we need to do it in a way which is sufficiently flexible we can keep it stopped for 6 to 18 months until there is a vaccine.  

I've no idea, she could easily get to Fife and back without filling up.

Plenty of people commute from Fife to work in Edinburgh.

It's also not 'essential', "just checking on my second house officer."

Genuine Question, were the police that close? I've heard people complain here about cops being right at their window when stopping motorists. You'd assume most would change their practice over this.

Where are you getting your information from? We're being adviced to go shopping as little as possible, not everyday.

Calderwood has had the decency to admit she was wrong and fall on her sword. The question is will 'Tom In Edinburgh' have the decency to do the same? 

You don't care that the public face of the Scottish Health Service has been breaking her own advice that she has quite rightly been trying to drill into the conciousness of people of Scotland....I've read some nonsense on UKC but this post has to be the most ridiculous I've read this year.....well done that's some achievement!

You don't care that the public face of the Scottish Health Service has been breaking her own advice that she has quite rightly been trying to drill into the conciousness of the people of Scotland....I've read some nonsense on UKC but this post has to be the most ridiculous I've read this year.....well done that's some achievement!

Made me chuckle Blunderbuss.

In the face of Covid-19 ... UKC launches (award voice) "The UKC Award for the Most Ridiculous Post of the Year - 2020" ... drums and fireworks ... the famous faces of the forum are all in tuxedos.

Cheered me up a little.  Thanks!!!

I think Nicola Sturgeon made an error of judgement in letting Ms Calderwood go through the press conference in which she apologised. This must have been an ordeal for her, perhaps deserved it can be argued. Ms Sturgeon should have persuaded her to resign or sacked her before the press conference. However, I believe she did this with the best of intentions. - Loyalty to Ms Calderwood whom she believed still had a lot to offer in this terrible situation.

It's obvious that the rules simply won't work at all if everybody is given the freedom to interpret them themselves - which is why that freedom hasn't been given, and which is why the behaviour of Calderwood (the public face of the rules) was so egregious, and stupid.

The oddity is that we all know - and you yourself know - that you would not be defending Calderwood's actions if she was in a Government formed by your political enemies.

As an SNP member, and a big fan of Sturgeon, I'm very disappointed at the (unusually) poor judgement shown here.

The CMOs position was completely untenable. 

If we were all doing what she was doing, the effects of lockdown would be significantly undermined.

I actually don't care.  She drove from Edinburgh to Fife - not that far - and stayed overnight in an empty house.  Seems reasonable to check a house if you know it's likely to be unoccupied for a few months.  She didn't get within 2m of anybody else.  She's not infected.  So this is all about 'rules' nothing to do with risk.  It would be different if she'd gone shopping in Fife.

'This post is beyond belief even by your own standards. It actually makes me quite angry. We could all use similar reasoning to drive all over the country doing lots of things we'd rather be doing rather than diligently doing our bit by sticking to the government's instructions' - copied from R Durran

My sentiments are exactly as R Durran's above. How do you know she didn't get within 2m of anyone else - the photos show her being pretty close to others. How do you know she didn't go shopping? I've sat in my house for 3 weeks now (sent to work from home 1 week before the official lockdown) and apart from food shopping when I need it and an exercise run that is it. I have an 85 year old mother who is housebound, lives on her own and has long term physical health implications and is now suffering so much mentally from the isolation that she is saying she won't see the end of it. It has been killing me that I can't drive the 150 miles plus to give her some company and mental respite. And then I hear this news yesterday. F*cking furious was an understatement!! On so many levels it was the wrong decision to make and the fact she did it two weekends in a row shows that she thought the rules didn't apply to her. F*ck her and I'm glad she has resigned. She can spend more time with her hubby and kids in their Edinburgh mansion. And next week I am getting in my car and driving to my mothers for a few days to help her out. In fact I'll do it twicce - and only get a warning from the police if I get caught. 

Your cavalier attitude just shows, as plenty of others have said, that you are a complete and utter c*ckwomble.

I said 'once per day' i.e. you aren't to go out to shop more than once per day.  Not you should go every day.

She was an excellent CMO who has been hounded out of her job by the unionist press.  As a result government has lost a good adviser.   

Yes, she was a bit arrogant and didn't think through the media aspects of her role but there is a huge amount of hypocrisy.   Arrogance and going with your own judgement aren't uncommon characteristics in surgeons, it kind of goes with the territory when your job is to operate on people.  Some of the Tory MSPs  baying for blood are busy deleting a tweet from their timeline about a trip to Ben Vorlich  and half of the upper middle class will have had sneaky trips to a second home at some point. 

Where is the judgement element on following an instruction, "No unnecessary travel allowed."?

Checking on a second home, on two consecutive weekends, with different people, most certainly counts as 'unnecessary travel'.

But if some Unionists 'allegedly' have done similar, it makes it OK?

I despair!

Ah yes of course. It was the unionists to blame.

Which begs the question whether you would want a surgeon as the chief adviser. I would be wanting someone who listens and takes advice bearing in mind there is no chance of anyone being competent across the range of medical specialities that a chief adviser would be needed to cover.

I would hope she is retained as an adviser but, ultimately, she was performing a job which required telling the public what to do. That is badly undermined by not following the rules herself even if she does have the knowledge to make the judgement call. Over confidence in ones own skills is a common factor and so you will have people looking at her and thinking yeah I can make the same judgement.

Excellent. Get copies of their tweets and send them to the Guardian or Mirror. I am pretty sure both of those will be happy to publish them.

Oh FFS. That's utterly, utterly pathetic. Anyone of any political persuasion could see that her position was completely untenable.

Yes, it must be absolutely infuriating for the First Minister.

She lost her job because of decisions she took. She has taken responsibility for her actions. 

That much is true. Massive hypocrisy on the part of those who think her actions to be acceptable but similar actions by others to be unacceptable. 

Nowhere does it state that you can go shopping once per day. The original guidance was once a week but this his been reduced to 'as little as necessary'.

I'm not going to comment on your political affiliations. I don't know or care enough about politics to be able to comment on them.

There was even a photograph in the newspaper of her, not social distancing! If you really can't see anything wrong with her behaviour then fair enough but even she has admitted that she was wrong. 

The tally of deaths in this country due to the pandemic would be lower than it is if people followed the social distancing guidelines. That's not opinion, its fact, and for you to sympathise with Collingwood is quite frankly disgusting! 

I think that Brian Taylor (BBC Scotland Political Editor) put it rather well referring specifically to wee Nicky:

"What on earth was she thinking? This was either grossly naive, achingly foolish or staggeringly arrogant. And either way the chief medical officer had to go.

As the health secretary made clear today, it was about a welling up of public anger, not just the customary keyboard warriors or the Twitterati, but the broad public were absolutely furious. They are being asked in very difficult circumstances to suffer constraints and those constraints apparently were not being entirely observed by the chief medical officer. I think the public made that concern and, frankly, that anger known to MSPs.

The initial idea was that she would stay in office, still taking her salary, still offering advice but somehow hidden behind the scenes in Edinburgh and presumably still longing for the sun-kissed shores of Fife and her second home.2

She's not in government at all.   It's a civil service position presumably chosen by a committee of doctors.

I haven't heard anyone say she wasn't doing a good job both before Coronavirus and in terms of the scientific advice she gave after.

The Sun is set their photographer who lives in Glasgow to follow a civil servant around to try and catch them out because they want to embarrass Scottish Government.

Hahaha! You have got to be taking the piss. Of course they were, and thank god they did or she'd be back up there again next Friday! 

So how can this possibly be unionist conspiracy then if she is apolitical?

Please compare your thumbs up and thumbs down.  It may be impossible for you to entertain the fact that you are not always correct, but for the love of god, work it out.

What on earth are you arguing about?  I said 'more than once per day' that doesn't imply you should or are allowed to go every day, it says nothing about how many days per week you can go.  It says you can't make two trips to go shopping in the same day.

The post was about whether if you go to a shop with a long queue you should wait the queue because you aren't allowed to make another shopping trip or go home for a few hours and go back when it is quiet.  The difference between following rules and reducing risk.

The deaths would be lower if people engaged in more effective social distancing.

'More effective social distancing' is not the same as 'unthinking and absolute obedience to arbitrary rules'. 

Example: two cops go and tell someone off who is sitting on some grass about 50m away from the next person.   It's against the rules to sit down.  But there is zero risk at that separation right up to the point the two cops get within 1m of them.   Then you have two people, not wearing PPE, regularly getting into proximity with potentially infected people.  The virus doesn't care they are wearing uniforms. 

You sure about that? Who choses the committee of doctors.

The problem is in the advice she gave to the general public and then didnt follow herself. Can you not see a slight problem there. As above it probably makes sense to retain her as an adviser but she cant hold a position where she needs to stand in front of the public and say do x after failing to do so herself. Maybe she will get the role back in future but she cant effectively perform part of the job.

To make it easier for you. Just imagine it was the English Chief Medical officer. What would you want to see happen there?

but but but. All the government needed to do is say nowt to do with them blame the committee of doctors.

Because they don't care about her, it is just a means to an end.  It is Nicola Sturgeon they are after.  They're already asking if Sturgeon can guarantee the new CMO will keep his own advice and if not shouldn't he resign before he is appointed.  

I'm more concerned with whether his advice is any good than whether he's willing to bend the 'rules' in a safe manner.  I'm willing to give a qualified person some latitude in following 'rules', he's got an understanding of the science on which the rules are based and is able to figure out whether there is actual risk in what he wants to do without relying on simplified guidelines.  

I'm not sure about the English CMO because of his association with the herd immunity strategy and overruling of WHO advice.   I'm also not sure about the speed with which the virus has gone through senior people in England, which taken along with videos where they are all far too close together at press conferences makes you wonder if they were being careful enough.

There are 10x as many English people as Scottish ones.  It is no surprise my views are not popular on a UK website.

I'll rephrase: we all know - and you yourself know - that you would not be defending Calderwood's actions if she was an advisor to a Government composed of your political enemies.

And I very much hope that there are 10x as many sensible non-paranoid, broader minded inationalists in Scotland than there there are ones like you and others in a few social media bubbles I brush against. If not, I fear for the future of Scotland and I'll be getting down from my position on the independence fence frimly on the unionist side.

Its rather telling that you feel someones nationality would play a part in whether they think the CMO should resign or not.

Your views are not popular because they are, in this instance, incoherent nonsense. The facts are simple enough. Government instruction (i.e. law-not serving suggestion, top tip, handy hint or recommendation) is to stay home, bar the three exceptions-work, exercise, essential shopping. The CMO was doing none of these things. Twice. Game over. Blathering on about Unionist plots just makes you sound like a fully paid up member of the tin foil hat brigade.

Don't overlook the possibility that some of your dislikes are from Scots and those living in Scotland. 

Absolutely. He is the sort of nationalist who gives scots and nationalism a bad name; if I were a confirmed nationalist I would give him dislikes (if it weren't for the fact that I never use the dislike button on principle).

He is.

What baffles me is why he felt he had to go full Braveheart over this. He started his ludicrous defence, as far as I'm aware, before anyone knew her boss hadn't sacked her. It was a simple case of a senior civil servant doing something incredibly stupid and hypocritical. It was a no brainer that she was on her way out.

Of course now there are more serious questions of judgement and I'm afraid honesty in this matter but not when Tommy first chose his hill to die on.

You really are being quite remarkably dim. The 'arbitrary rules' were her rules.

Nah.

Hancock followed the guidelines as far as I can tell.

Charles is just a daft old bugger that probably didn't actually have any real choice where he was being decanted to. -And- he wasn't responsible for handing out advice to the public. Those who moved Charles to an area where there are limited medical resources, rather than, say, chartering a penthouse suite somewhere more appropriate have something to answer for, though.

But Calderwood exhibited dreadful hypocrisy, and showed herself entirely unsuitable for being the public face of anything to do with this. To be honest, she's seemed a bit "rabbit in the headlights" from the start; it's possible her planning and advice are great, but she isn't fit for the role she was in.

There are very many situations where professionals with the knowledge to do so safely are allowed to go beyond or disregard simple rules which are applied to members of the public.  

Hancock tested postive.  He came out after 7 days which is UK advice but WHO says 14 for good reason.  He still had obvious symptoms - coughing and sneezing.  That should have put him back into isolation.

He coughed without covering his mouth, sneezed into his hand and there were other people nearby.

What the CMO did was against the rules but there was zero risk.  What Hancock did may have been within the rules but there was significant risk.

While Hancock was giving his speech you could see the assembled media in the background all close together chatting in groups.   That's not social distancing but today they are all clamouring for blood.  As are the Scots Tory MSPs, after quickly deleting their Twitter posts about going climbing Ben Vorlich.

MY post appears to have received a dislike. Hi Tom!

Yes and there are equally situations where professionals deliberately limit themselves in order to set a good example.

When asking people to massively change their lifestyles to limit a risk you dont turn around and go f*ck it I know better.  You set the example. If you dont dont be surprised when everyone else goes I dont feel bad time for the country residence as well.

Aside from the advice excludes that since the coughing can continue for a lot longer.

The media being hypocritical muppets. Not really a surprise to be honest. Like how it is a essential job apparently to go photographing queues and if you dont have a good picture to fake one whether its of someone with lots of toilet rolls or use the long lens to compress the spread out people.

You got evidence of these? Lets see it and I suspect almost everyone will, rightly, condemn them. I guess there might be some fanatical Scots tory who will invent excuses about them knowing better and the minimal risk but doubt more than one.

Why didn't you just say so at the start of thread, professionals like her can drive to their second homes whenever they like.  Us dumb-f*ck plebs, what are we like!!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/covid-19-essential-travel-guidance :  'Essential travel does not include visits to second homes.'

I guess he means this, where two MSPs, err,  followed all guidelines in place at tbe time. 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.thescottishsun.co.uk/news/5465438/coronavi...

Brilliant! Could have waved to them from the hill I was on that day.

Particularly hilarious that they were named and shamed by Tom's favourite unionist paper.

Ah. silly me. Teach me to give the benefit of the doubt and assume he had a valid case.

Tom, there is NEVER zero risk in driving a car.

for plebs like you and me you are correct but for SNP approved experts those minor rules dont apply.

Of course people will try to use her f*ck up for political gain. Doesn't make her f*ck up any less selfish, or any more acceptable.

As definitely not an SNP member or fan so am I. It is however only one mistake. The First Minister appears to be doing a very good job at a time of crisis. Doesn't mean I will vote for her but I am happy she is in charge at the moment. 

Yes

Yes 

"They" = Unionists? I apologise if I have misunderstood.  Do these Unionists include Independenista Craig Murray who seems to be implying that Nicola Sturgeon is part of a conspiracy against Alex Salmond? I quote from his blog.

"The accusations in court were all fabricated and presented on a government platter to the police by a two prong process. The first prong was the civil service witch hunt presided over by Leslie Evans and already condemned by Scotland’s highest civil court as “unlawful, unfair and tainted by apparent bias”. The second prong was the internal SNP process orchestrated by a group at the very top in SNP HQ and the First Minister’s Private Office."

"ORCHESTRATED BY A GROUP AT THE VERY TOP IN SNP HQ AND THE FIRST MINISTER'S PRIVATE OFFICE." If this is true, which I doubt, it would suggest that Nicola Sturgeon was involved in the "plot."

Some Independence supporters replying to Craig Murray's blog / Twitter feed actually talk of getting rid of Nicola Sturgeon and her husband, Peter Murrell, Chief Executive of the SNP.

These are the only people I can find who seem to be "after" Nicola Sturgeon. I get the impression that the UK Government is happy to let Nicola Sturgeon take care of C-virus affairs in Scotland.

You can disable the buttons in your profile.

I am neither English, nor Scottish, and I still think you are wrong. For gods sake, even she has admitted it was an error of judgement (where in fact it was a complete f*ck-up).

I wonder how many of the rich Tory 'self isolators' stayed in London and how many of the journalists have stayed away from their own second homes.   There's a bit of a witch hunt going on.

The Queen, Prince Charles, Dominic Cummings all pissed off to country homes.

It was an error of judgment but she wasn't doing anything the people kicking up sh*t about it in politics and the media don't do themselves.  The problem is we are losing good medical advice because she's not adapted fast enough to being in the spotlight.

They were named and shamed on social media and people tweeted at the Sun how come you aren't covering this until they had no choice.

Do you really, honestly, seriously want to give ANYONE any "latitude" in following the "rules"?? Do you not realize how important they are in this case?? And anyway - even if you gave any latitude - why would you give it to a "qualified person"?? Rules are rules. They have to apply to everyone..... or no-one

It's catching.

New Zealand's health minister has called himself an "idiot" after breaking the country's lockdown by driving his family to the beach.

David Clark admitted the 12-mile (20km) drive was "a clear breach of the lockdown principles".

Jesus. Are these people really that stupid. Amazingly, given the love  of soccer in this Shire, the Kyle Walker incident has garnered little comment. 

Basically hired a couple of prostitutes and had, as the tabloids/BBC report, a party.  Aren't they confusing this with orgy?

I'm finding it very, very difficult to persuade myself not to go to some crappy little crag in the middle of nowhere for a Potter about when officials (actual health ministers!) are behaving like this.

Absolutely takes the piss. My F**King 6 year old is sobbing because shes struggling to understand why she can't play with her mates next door, and is starting to ask about 'death' everyday, and these tw*ts are going to their summerhouses and going to the beach for the day.

Was that in addition to his drive to go cycling as well?

Which, superbly, he did in a van with a massive picture of him on the side. Not the most subtle vehicle when the car park is mostly empty.

I must remember that excuse when I go completely off-piste at work.

I couldn't believe how stupid Calderwood was and have always viewed the Kiwis as being a pretty sensible bunch. 

Does make me wonder what is rattling about in these people's brains at a time like this.

If the lockdown lasts long enough, people will get fed up and will start bending/breaking rules. 
 

I went to a local wholefoods/organic/hipster shop the other day as I craved for some quality bread. Totally non-vital and did it as part of a bigger shopping. Saying that, the loaf was gone in 3 days. My only regret is not getting more! 
 

People like routine and don’t like being told not to do things... 

That might be so but  you don't normally expect  the first person to break the rules to be the one who made them.

And as for not liking being told not to do things, I'm sure most people serving time would agree with you.

Oh yeah, don’t get me wrong - I live in Scotland (although non-Brit), support SNP and I think that CMO’s move was a disgrace. This is also why we need good examples.

We need “we are all in this together” mindset to go through this. It’s also why China can issue stricter lockdown as the sense of greater good for community is stronger. Not that I believe in that full heartedly, of course. My parents grew up under soviet oppression and my understanding was that people didn’t always think the same way the Union was portrayed. 

Every time I read one of your posts it makes me less likely to support an Independent Scotland. I'm one of those people who can see both positives and negatives on both sides of the independence debate. All you are doing is driving away the people who are most likely to change from marginal no's to marginal yes's. You are doing your side a huge disfavour.

Yes, what Tom and his like seem to forget is that to get independence, they need to win over those of us who actually see strengths in the union (otherwise we wouldn't have voted for it last time).

Maybe he is a deepcover unionist agent deliberately undermining the cause. After all he keeps telling us how the unionist conspire against them maybe its his conscience showing?

And another one. NZ this time... 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-52194407

If he is he deserves a medal. Sterling work.

Janey Godley nails it as usual: 

youtube.com/watch?v=_mRHuQDjVvM&

If you expect people with money and power to keep the rules they make for others then you haven't been paying attention.

The whole political and media class are doing stuff like this every day.  The press is owned by right wing billionaires like Murdoch and the BBC is owned by the state which means the Tories.  They go after people like Diane Abott and the SNP because it suits their agenda.   Gove can do coke and be almost incapable on TV but Diane Abott gets abuse for a G&T.  Cummings can run away to a farmhouse in the midlands because he's sh*t scared of catching corona in Downing Street and Charles can fly to Scotland with a bunch of infected cops and nobody says a word but a trip to a holiday house gets Scotland's CMO fired.

It was complete hypocrisy for Tories that had just gone up Ben Vorlich to pile onto the CMO and then delete their tweets about going hillwalking.

There was already strong advice about not going out when they went on their trip.

There wasn't. 

Well actually, I do expect them to keep the rules. That's why  I do, as well.

And the bulk of society.

With vindictive truth-distorting rabid nationalists like you around, I can hardly blame them.

No there wasn't. There were social distancing measures and advice to be cautious in the mountains. I was hillwalking in the southern highlands that day and I felt I was acting well within the advice. Are you going to have a go at me too?

she's in Windsor and has been there since well before the lockdown, and I'm guessing you've never been to Windsor if you're describing her castle as a 'country home'.

This argument falls flat on its face immediately, because, as you know perfectly well, the same would have happened if it had been Chris Whitty and you'd have been right in there eager to cast the first stone.

Are you a supporter of the SNP.

If yes then I am sure Tom will find you had a valid reason for your decisions.

If no. Well just hang your head in shame and report to the reeducation camps.

Yeah, OK I'll have a go at you too.

Actually, I don't have a problem with the CMO going to her house as long as she didn't get close to anyone else and I don't have a problem with someone going hillwalking if they can do it without a long car journey and without getting close to people outside their household.  Which would mean not honeypot munros and not bunching together for selfies like the Tories.

This is one of the reasons I like the idea of using technology in a badge to actually measure how often people come within 2m of people they aren't living with and for how long.  When you measure social distancing objectively you can make the rules about the measured number rather than a list of arbitrary things that restrict freedom but only indirectly affect the number.   If someone can do what they want without increasing their interactions then good luck to them but if someone is racking up interactions they need to change their behaviour.

So basically you are saying we should go back to social distancing without the lockdown. Do you think that would work second time round?

I would like that idea too.  Except for thinking most infection is from contaminated surfaces.

It's sad we have rules that don't completely make sense, because people are thought too dim to think for themselves.

In past times we might have been required to go to prayers three times a day until the epidemic was over. 

The stupidity of being made to join in with that would really have been annoying.

I think it could work even better than a lockdown if it was enforced or monitored by technology.   The lockdown is unsustainable and it is brute force catching behaviour which is not risky while allowing some behaviour which is.  If you actually detect and quantify the risky behaviour you should be able to do better.

But even when you detect and quantify the risky behaviour there's a whole group of people who will claim exemption from the rules and your earlier  post seems to suggest that these will largely be the rich and people in political office who see themselves as above the sort of legislation designed for the masses. 

I assume that this includes people of all political persuasions,

The rule would be very simple:  if you go outside you need to be wearing your badge and the icon beside your picture needs to be green.

That rule is simple enough to be enforced by CCTV, drones or cops.   The logic to decide whether a particular person's badge is red or green at a particular time would evolve over time with the goal of suppressing the disease while allowing maximum freedom to go about your business.  

Is this still going on? Apparently yes.

Yes, but we don't have the technology in place at the moment.

Whatever happened to "we want oor freeeeeedom" ?