Cyclist stupidity

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Last night on a quiet country Lake District road through the forest, I came round a blind corner, broad daylight. Five cyclists were coming directly towards me on my side of the road. One of them was almost on the grass verge on my side.

I was going fairly slowly, I stopped dead, on my side, and sat there, stationary, until they passed on their proper side of the road. One of them said "sorry". Should have been "thank you for not killing me".

Why is it that such a high percentage of people become complete stupid selfish arrogant dickheads the minute they get on a bike? If any of them ever get hurt - inevitably it will always be the driver's fault.

I assume most people here are climbers, cyclists and drivers too.

DC, cyclist, climber, driver.

66
 Ridge 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

It may be the “I'm on holiday so I'm invulnerable” mentality that seems to come into play with many otherwise normal seeming people.

That or they were practicing for the Fred Whitton...

1
 Toby_W 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Sounds like you are a good driver, just the same had it been a tractor a couple of horses or another car I assume?

Cheers

Toby

1
 Crazylegs 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Well done for averting an accident and nice to hear you got an apology.

However, your third paragraph is a good example of bigotry. I don't suppose you feel so motivated to post about examples of motorist stupidity for all of our benefit? Some further sweeping statements would be useful too.

57
 Bobling 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Corollary to this story - on my commute into town yesterday, the cyclist in front of me had to take fairly drastic evasive action to avoid being sideswiped by a lorry changing lanes.  The cyclist was in a cycle lane at the time.  The lorry driver finally saw the cyclist (a bit too late) and aborted the lane change.

We pulled up to the lights and I said something to the driver like "Nearly got him that time eh?" to which that driver said "Yeah sorry mate, it's my blind spot".  I was pleasantly suprised to get polite contrition rather than the usual abuse.

Moral of the story? We're all human but far better to accept this and apologise than get into willy waving stereotyping argy bargy.

Well done for avoiding the accident OP!

1
 The Potato 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

good driving that man.

I cringe when im riding with other cyclists and they cut corners, or ride side by side on single lane roads with lots of blind corners.

Dont know is the answer! Humans are strange things

1
 Timmd 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I think some people can go into 'tranquil and neutral' mode when riding with friends along quiet country lanes, and with you living in the Lake District, you come across (and remember) those who do, and probably it's these instances which stick in your mind, when most of the time most people don't?

Post edited at 14:37
1
 jimtitt 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

A mountain-biker rode head on into me last week on a straight, slightly uphill gravel road. I'd stopped to tell him that on the next downhill bend the farmer was moving hay. The guy was a ball of red sweat staring at his front wheel and just rode straight into me completeley oblivious to what was going on around him.

The worst are on the gravel passes in the Alps, the concept of other road users that could be going faster completely escapes them.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

There's something different about one person on a road bike, and a group of people on road bikes. Individually they usually seem pretty sensible, courteous, reasonable, and aware of their surroundings... but something changes in them when they gather. I don't know what it is, but it's as if somehow they genuinely believe they've been transformed into team sky on a closed alpine road and they're something other than slightly tubby middle aged men belligerently conspiring to cause as much obstruction as possible wearing outfits that you can't unsee, no matter how hard you try.
Maybe I should try it sometime and see if it happens to me too.

(Just got back from a 40k ride, on my own, in baggy shorts and a t-shirt)

18
 Timmd 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

You mean like people who'd politely step to one side while walking as an individual on the pavement, when part of a football crowd will stay in their place on the pavement and not do so?

Post edited at 16:41
1
Roadrunner6 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

"Why is it that such a high percentage of people become complete stupid selfish arrogant dickheads the minute they get on a bike? "

Because you don't notice the riders who go out, ride and cause no issues..

My reaction to drivers comments is never good. A guy shouted at me today to 'get on the f*cking side walk', the side walk was ending 20 yards away and I was stepping down into the cycle lane. 50 yards earlier a guy had pulled out of McD's, food on his lap, looking down and drove across the sidewalk without looking and almost took me out. By the time I got to the guy shouting at me I was in no mood for polite debate... 

Post edited at 16:26
6
 peppermill 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

Quite. 

I love the people in my club, cracking bunch of people, all experienced cyclists but jeez i hate group rides.

IMO the 2 abreast group cycling thing (to bunch everyone up so the group is about the same length as a car to make it as easy and safe as possible for faster traffic to pass) only works up to about 8 riders and everyone has to be super drilled and disciplined. Otherwise it's just dangerous mayhem.

In the words of Malcom Tucker: "Even cyclists hate cyclists"

Post edited at 16:37
 Fredt 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Sidewalk??

11
 PaulW 12 Jun 2021
In reply to peppermill:

Yes, 6-8 riders in a bunch works well if they know how to ride together. 4-6 is even better. More than that they should split into spaced groups, i know we try to.

 Tyler 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Fredt:

> Sidewalk??

It’s what they call pavements in America

 Toby_W 12 Jun 2021
In reply to peppermill: I set out on a group ride with a club in Bristol and there was some dithering about lane choice and direction and poor road positioning and a friend with a rather dry sense of humour glanced at me and said, “it’s like the start of an episode of casualty” it was very funny but no, at the same time!

As someone above said, we’re all human and often people don’t mean to be a menace they’re just having a bad day.  If it’s one percent of the population each day that’s a lot of road users to look out for!

Cheers

Toby

In reply to peppermill:

> In the words of Malcom Tucker: "Even cyclists hate cyclists"

I seem to regrettably be joining this  any minor (and some major) roads in Surrey seem to be strung with groups not riding as groups, spaced at 10m increments grinding along then coagulating at junctions for a chat about which road to block next.

I really don't identify with the anti-cycling brigade at all but find myself getting increasingly aggitated by the spectacularly low level consideration riding on display.

2
 ianstevens 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> Why is it that such a high percentage of people become complete stupid selfish arrogant dickheads the minute they get in a car? If any of them ever get hurt - inevitably it will always be someone else’s fault.

FTFY. I have far more encounters with bad drivers than bad cyclists, both on the bike and in the car. This specific situation seems like an exception in my experience - although there do seem to be a large number of new cyclists on the roads atm that are lacking the requisite skill set for being safe. Well done on averting an accident.

13
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Further evidence to support dear granny's theory.

"c*ntism is an equal opportunity employer"

One can be any creed or colour, cyclist, climber, golfer, crochet enthusiast and be a c*nt. Jus because someone enjoys the same things as you doesn't necessarily mean they are a good sort.

Equally, there are many courteous Audi drivers. 

Post edited at 18:41
1
 Fredt 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Tyler:

> It’s what they call pavements in America

Well no wonder they were on the wrong side of the road.

2
In reply to Presley Whippet:

Correct - and you get c@nt cyclists and c£nt drivers. 

The difference is that the cyclist is sitting on top of 7kg of carbon/ aluminium, but the driver is in a 2000kg steel box.

To the OP, think about it another way. If it was a tractor towing a trailer and you couldn’t have stopped in time you’d have written your car off at the very minimum and it could have been much worse.

The cyclists were behaving poorly, however I’ve never heard of a story of a cyclist killing a car driver in a crash. Well done for being able to stop in time.

8
 Tom Valentine 12 Jun 2021
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

Imagine if he hadn't been able to stop in time   in a situation where the law had been changed to a presumed liability model. 

5
Roadrunner6 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Tyler:

> It’s what they call pavements in America

And the tarmac is the pavement.. 

1
 Dax H 12 Jun 2021
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

> To the OP, think about it another way. If it was a tractor towing a trailer and you couldn’t have stopped in time you’d have written your car off at the very minimum and it could have been much worse.

A tractor towing a trailer is normally moving much slower than a bunch of bikes giving far more reaction time, also due to the height of them you can often see them over the hedges etc. 

> The cyclists were behaving poorly, however I’ve never heard of a story of a cyclist killing a car driver in a crash. Well done for being able to stop in time.

What about the driver who killed himself because he couldn't live with the fact he had taken 2, 3, 4 lives from people who were doing nothing more that following the racing line? 

16
 Dax H 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

Just a point to add to this thread seeing as a lot of cyclists are reading it.

When I come up behind you in my van as I do multiple times a day most days please don't wave me past on blind corners, I appreciate that you are 30 or 40 meters in front of me and can see the way is clear but I'm the one in charge of the 3.5 ton killing machine and I will make the call when it's safe for me to overtake, not you. Also when I ignore your waves don't get all irate and start waving more vigorously . Until I can see myself there is a clear enough section for me to overtake you I won't be doing it. 

6
 Timmd 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

I occasionally wave drivers past, but if the driver doesn't respond I leave them to their roadcraft (like anybody should do). It's a free country re them not being past goes, seems a bit odd to me that some cyclists get irate.

I like to think I only wave drivers past if they can see that it's clear, and are just being considerate, but it's something I'll consider next time I go to...

Post edited at 21:44
 DaveHK 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

What you've experienced here is most likely  people making a mistake. No need to make it a cyclist thing, making mistakes is a person thing.

DK, cyclist, climber, driver, person that sometimes makes mistakes.

Post edited at 22:05
2
 Timmd 12 Jun 2021
In reply to DaveHK: Yeah, when I had PTSD after seeing a friend get beaten up by a group of Asian men with sticks, it illustrated to me how certain patterns can stick in the memory, we can remember the negative instances, and that can form a pattern which creates to a general impression, or we can remember the positive ones, or a mixture of both.

Minds are very subjective things, to do with BMW drivers, horse riders, cyclists, whichever sub group it is we can have an impression of.

I don't get tunes stuck in my head anymore, after untangling my mind, so that's a plus in the end.

Post edited at 22:17
 PM 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> I don't get tunes stuck in my head anymore, after untangling my mind, so that's a plus in the end.

This (combined with the context provided by the rest of your comment) is one of the most intriguing things I’ve ever read on here!

 Dave the Rave 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Timmd:

If you watch Jaws on rewind, the shark turns out to be a big fish that gives limbs back to disabled people.

 65 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Toby_W:

> Sounds like you are a good driver, just the same had it been a tractor a couple of horses or another car I assume?

Round of applause.

1
 65 12 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

> A tractor towing a trailer is normally moving much slower than a bunch of bikes giving far more reaction time, also due to the height of them you can often see them over the hedges etc. 

One of my suppliers spends a fair bit of time moving plant around quiet country roads with a JCB Fastrac. It's a bit faster and much bigger than any group of cyclists. 

I take your point about waving for overtaking. I do this, but if you choose not to pass that's fine, I've no problem with it, quite the opposite in fact. I can't fathom why anyone would get impatient about not being overtaken.

Post edited at 23:07
Roadrunner6 13 Jun 2021
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

Exactly.

im amazed at the light hearted apologies I get of drivers after they’ve nearly mowed me down. ‘Oh, sorry I didn’t see you’.. when they mean ‘shit, I never even looked’.

Re cycling in packs. You shouldn’t squeeze past single file riders anyway. They shouldn’t be riding in at the kerb. For some reason it’s drilled into US riders to hug the side of the road so trucks squeeze past and literally suck riders into them. And there’s certainly safety in numbers because of all the pricks who race past and you feel the wind hit your elbow they get that close. Be annoyed at the bad drivers not the riders for feeling the need to move in a group.

when I see the equivalence between bad riders jumping red lights and bad drivers it just pisses me off. 

I miss riding in continental Europe. Compared to the UK and US it’s just far more pleasant.

re waving guys past it’s their call to overtake when safe. I just wave thanks if they’ve sat behind me through a few turns.

4
Removed User 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

I had sympathy for the common cyclists cause until I started road running.

 Dax H 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Timmd:

> I occasionally wave drivers past, but if the driver doesn't respond I leave them to their roadcraft (like anybody should do). It's a free country re them not being past goes, seems a bit odd to me that some cyclists get irate.

Going by the body language some get very irate. I could understand it if I were sitting a couple of meters from their back wheel but I always stay a ways back. Having been a cyclist myself I leave plenty of room. 

Blanche DuBois 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Fredt:

> Sidewalk??

What, you're so parochial that you've never encountered the term?

2
 Lankyman 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Blanche DuBois:

> What, you're so parochial that you've never encountered the term?

My American sister-in-law can't follow many BBC productions as she doesn't understand the accents, idioms or the context. My Brit brother has his work cut out explaining why he's laughing and what exactly a fish finger sandwich is when watching an episode of 'Happy Valley' (a crime drama set in the exotic town of Halifax). And as for 'The Full Monty' with subtitles ....

 peppermill 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

Agreed. Almost always ignore cyclists that wave me past until I'm happy it's safe to pass , on the other side of things I almost never wave drivers past on the bike. 

1
 Alkis 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

I wave people through when I can see it's clear and they can't but I only do it as a suggestion, it wouldn't even occur to me to get irate about it. People are either weird or not drivers as well as cyclists (which I doubt).

 bouldery bits 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

8/10

 Alkis 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

The other day I was cycling past Nottingham station, moved to the right lane to turn right on what was basically an empty road. Some guy passed me on the left, got in front of me, beeped his horn, stopped and screamed "Get the f*** on the inside". There were many things I could have said but all that came out was a concise "f*** off" in the end.

1
 Tom Valentine 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

The OP's concern wasn't that they were riding in a group but that the group had spilled over on to his side of the road. If a car driver or motorcyclist approaches you on the wrong side of the road you are entitled to call them stupid and I don't see how cyclists are any different.

 Moacs 13 Jun 2021
In reply to bouldery bits:

That's what I thought too

 DaveHK 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine:

> The OP's concern wasn't that they were riding in a group but that the group had spilled over on to his side of the road. If a car driver or motorcyclist approaches you on the wrong side of the road you are entitled to call them stupid and I don't see how cyclists are any different.

Nothing wrong with saying somebody did something stupid. The problem with the OP is the suggestion that this happened because they were cyclists followed by accusing cyclists in general of a sense of entitlement.

I reckon it's either a troll or a Mail reader and I'm not sure which is worse.  

Post edited at 09:37
5
 nniff 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Club TT this morning.  Being partially broken, I was course photographer, positioned on a hairpin bend on Box Hill.  It being a glorious day, there were scores of cyclists out at at 7am (which made my job of picking out the TT riders well nigh impossible (nearly all on road bikes).  A few observations - all but one rider going up hill rode a nice clean line without jeopardising themselves or others.  All the riders going downhill were steady (some fast, some not), but one of them needs to learn about keeping the inside pedal up (he may have learnt that lesson).

Rykers is at the bottom of Box Hill, so there were lots of motorbikes too - of which about 33% were unsteady (up or down hill) and 2 were a material hazard to other road users.

Cars mostly OK - two not really in control.

Make of that what you will

 Toby_W 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Tom Valentine: I tend to drive down the middle of country lanes as they are so narrow, though living in Cornwall I am expert at running my wing mirror through the hedge to the limit of the greenery without contacting the granite underneath!  Often have to back up though as even doing this I’m still on the other side.

Cheers

Toby

1
 65 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

> Going by the body language some get very irate. 

Some do, I had a cyclist giving the exasperated hand-in-the-air-shrug when I didn't overtake the other day. There are a small but visible number of cyclists who are actively looking for aggro or at least an opportunity to be anal about their rights on the road.

Rather than getting tribal, it's important to bear in mind that these cyclists will almost certainly be complete dickheads when behind the wheel of a car as well. It's not a cyclist thing or a driver thing, it's an arsehole thing. That's not directed at you BTW, more the entire thread.

1
 john arran 13 Jun 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

> I reckon it's either a troll or a Mail reader and I'm not sure which is worse.  

The difference between them is that one knows they're being a dick. Far from me to defend Mail readers, but the real troll there would be the Mail editor, for whom Mail readers are simply victims in the landing net.

 Dave the Rave 13 Jun 2021
In reply to peppermill:

I once had a cyclist wave me past as he trundled up the steep bends from Camusdarach to the Mallaig road. Straight into the path of a fortunately slow moving vehicle.

2
 Siward 13 Jun 2021
In reply to nniff:

That it's all far too crowded... 

Post edited at 13:13
 JimR 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Siward:

Well I did a 50 mile TT this morning I reckon I had 7  very close "punishment passes" for no other reason than I was on a bike. 

1
 Yanis Nayu 13 Jun 2021
In reply to JimR:

> Well I did a 50 mile TT this morning I reckon I had 7  very close "punishment passes" for no other reason than I was on a bike. 

Which is the overwhelmingly more important issue than that raised by the OP in his “Aren’t I amazing while other people are tw*ts” type way. 

9
 RobAJones 13 Jun 2021
In reply to JimR:

My initial  reaction to reading the OP was that I remembered a similar incident about 4 years ago, two weeks before the Fred which fits with other observations. Perhaps it is just me, but if I reported on here every time poor motorised  vehicle driving scared me there would be a post every week. So in the two rides since the OP. Yesterday descending from Whinlatter towards home, on the steepest blind bend was confronted by a motorist overtaking someone cycling in the other direction. Today's wasn't as scary, on a straight road, slight down hill, tractor coming the other way, thought there was no problem as there was plenty of room to pass, so just knocked the speed down a little, next thing a Range Rover overtakes me but then has to slam on the brakes as there is no way he was getting past the tractor. I realise that I meet more motorists than cyclists on my rides, but wasn't sure what the ratio was. After the OP I decided to make a tally and was a bit surprised to find it was less than 10:1, of course that is very personal to me and my normal routes. One of the few positives of the first lockdown was seeing the number of families, especially those with small children out for ride, when there was very little motorised traffic.  

 Dan Arkle 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dax H:

I occasionally wave drivers past when cycling - as a defensive measure.

Often it will just give them a heads up that we are entering a straight bit, and they get past quicker, improving my safety.

1
 Stichtplate 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Yanis Nayu:

> Which is the overwhelmingly more important issue than that raised by the OP in his “Aren’t I amazing while other people are tw*ts” type way. 

As has been pointed out up thread, there aren’t more arseholes driving cars than riding bikes, there are just more cars, hence more chance of encountering an arsehole in one.

One characteristic of arseholes is that they’re more likely to act like one if they feel they can get away with it. Being clad in a metal box tends to facilitate this feeling.

So you can piss and moan all you like but it isn’t car drivers that are the issue, the issue is arseholes and unfortunately arseholes will always be with us.

When I’m on my bike i cycle defensively, wear a bright top and keep my eyes and ears open. You might feel that this shouldn’t be so but it is. 
 

As an aside, the last three cyclists I attended all managed to book a bed in A&E all by themselves. No other road users involved.

Post edited at 15:32
1
 fred99 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Tyler:

> It’s what they call pavements in America

And indeed is what we used to call walkways on the side of the road over this side of the pond - until we paved them over.

1
 Maggot 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Stichtplate:

Too right, fella!

One thing I've noticed over the years of reading  UKC, is so many peoples' surprise that the world is full of arseholes.  The  trick is spotting them from a safe distance and avoiding them

1
 MG 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> I occasionally wave drivers past when cycling - as a defensive measure.

> Often it will just give them a heads up that we are entering a straight bit, and they get past quicker, improving my safety.

I think this is a really bad thing to do.  The driver shouldn't rely on a cyclist to decide when to overtake, and the cyclist can not be aware of other considerations about whether overtaking is safe.   If there is an accident it will remain the driver's responsibility.  However, a cyclist waving cars on remains powerful incentive to overtake to the driver, and is also distracting.  It makes things more, not less dangerous.

If a cyclist waves me on, I will generally be more cautious and probably take longer to get past.

As a cyclist I will just make as much room as is safe for drivers and not try and backseat drive.

 MG 13 Jun 2021
In reply to JimR:

Punishment for what? I haven't had any such incidents in the last year.  A fair number of incompetent, even reckless drivers, but no deliberate threats to me.  Why are you so affected?

12
 Rampart 13 Jun 2021
In reply to nniff:

>  Rykers is at the bottom of Box Hill, so there were lots of motorbikes too

At 7am?! I'd have assumed they'd prefer a more leisurely start.

 Alkis 13 Jun 2021
In reply to MG:

Dunno, but I've had one yesterday. Tw** in a van that without any obstruction on the other side of the road decided to do a close overtake while holding his horn down.

Echoing what Stitchplate said, I am pretty confident these people would be arseholes if they were in any other vehicle. It just sucks that so many people like that are around.

Post edited at 16:34
Roadrunner6 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Alkis:

> The other day I was cycling past Nottingham station, moved to the right lane to turn right on what was basically an empty road. Some guy passed me on the left, got in front of me, beeped his horn, stopped and screamed "Get the f*** on the inside". There were many things I could have said but all that came out was a concise "f*** off" in the end.

It's incredible the anger some people feel towards runners and bikers. Some times I'm shouted at by pedestrians for being on a pavement, then shouted at my cars for being on the road. The other day we are out at 7 am in a rural area with a huge shoulder, 4 of us running as a group, none of us were over the white line into the car lane and there was no pavement, we're miles out of town. One car coming towards us and the guy is screaming, spitting with anger he was so aggressively shouting, that we need to get off the f*cking road. 

There was nobody else on the road, a beautiful sunny late spring morning, blue sky, big wide shoulder. He must have a pretty awful life to be that angry.

 Timmd 13 Jun 2021
In reply to Stichtplate: 

> As an aside, the last three cyclists I attended all managed to book a bed in A&E all by themselves. No other road users involved.

All my accidents and most of my close shaves have been down to me while cycling, which I've concluded is a reassuring thing, because it's within my control.

Post edited at 17:43
In reply to Timmd:

I’d say my close shaves have mostly been with cars and tractors (I’m a pretty nervous/rubbish descender so never find myself flying downhill).

My most recent near close call was with a tractor towing a trailer (hence the example I gave above) where I was on a single lane road which had enough room to pass a car coming head on comfortably. I went round a corner at 35kph and found myself face to face with a massive steel beast in the middle of the road. I was forced off the road at speed, but managed to stay upright.

Usually the worst drivers are (ranked most to least likely to kill/ maim):

- the elderly in small cars (probably crashed the last one, hence the smaller model, and usually blind as a bat).

- the elderly in big cars (no spacial awareness and an accident waiting to happen, and usually blind as a bat).

- boy racers (no explanation needed).

- white van men (probably won’t kill you, but specialise in being c&nts).

- people towing horse boxes (will always pull out on you).

- school run mums/ dads (are they watching the road or stopping the kids from fighting?).

3
 RobAJones 13 Jun 2021
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

Round here I'd add people who are3used to driving on narrow/steep lanes.

Was anyone else at the top of the Struggle when the Tour of Britain went up it? 

Post edited at 18:50
 bridgstarr 13 Jun 2021
In reply to MG:

> I think this is a really bad thing to do.  The driver shouldn't rely on a cyclist to decide when to overtake, and the cyclist can not be aware of other considerations about whether overtaking is safe.  

As a driver I wouldn't overtake if a cyclist waved me on, but as a cyclist I will do it in certain circumstances. The reason is on a good proportion of rides I will be overtaken by cars on blind bends. If I happen to have an impatient driver behind me, and a narrow opportunity to overtake, I'd rather I get them passed me as we approach a straight. If they choose not to pass, I have no problem. If they do pass, it means I've eliminated the risk of them getting impatient and passing me on a bend.

Given the number of near misses I've had with cars and lorries passing within inches it's a near inevitability I'll get hit. I'd like to postpone that as long as possible.

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Some of the responses to this story have been helpful, partly answering the question, others plain weird or stupid.

This was not an isolated incident however, here is another tale from about five years ago:

Ambleside-Coniston road, grid ref 331025, the bends and hill just south of the Little Langdale junction.

We were heading towards Coniston. As we turned up the hill, round the tight bends, we were met by about six cyclists flying really fast coming straight towards us on our side of the road. They were unable to stop and completely out of control.

I put the car straight into the side of the road which is very rocky, just managing to not wreck the bodywork or destroy both left wheels. I got as close as I could.

Two of the cyclists just missed me, one by about half an inch.

If our car had been a bus or a tractor, at least two of those idiots would have been killed or seriously injured.

The fact is most cyclists can't stop, many are out of control, yet they rely on good luck or careful drivers to not kill them. I would not always bet on this.

Any incident is still the driver's fault.

The original question remains.

DC: climber, cyclist, driver.

19
 mondite 14 Jun 2021
In reply to MG:

> I think this is a really bad thing to do. 

Only time I do it is on single track roads and I am making room for them to pass eg going onto bank/layby.

 mondite 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> The fact is most cyclists can't stop, many are out of control, yet they rely on good luck or careful drivers to not kill them.

What utter rubbish.

3
 fred99 14 Jun 2021
In reply to VSisjustascramble:

Agree with the list. Not sure of the order though, as it depends on the time of day/week as to which of the plonkers you run into (or rather they try to run into us).

 65 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> DC:  cyclist.

Strong smell of "I'm not _____ , but"

3
 65 14 Jun 2021
In reply to the thread:

Take a look at the OP's posting history. A clear long term preoccupation with cyclists. I wonder what the police would make of it if he hit a cyclist.

OP: Congratulations are in order for being part of the reason that a couple of years ago I stopped road cycling in this country after 40+ years of regular riding. Now I just clog up the roads with a car or a van instead. My partner still does a lot of road cycling. I worry for her, because there are lots of people like you out there.  

Post edited at 11:13
7
 NorthernGrit 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

"If any of them ever get hurt - inevitably it will always be the driver's fault."

"Any incident is still the driver's fault."

Where have you got this notion? There is no system of presumed liability in this country and even if there was the driver would only be liable if he couldn't prove it was the cyclists fault. If a bunch of cyclists comes tearing round a blind corner on the wrong side of the road into your car I think you're on terra firma.

So you can now go back to shaking your fist at clouds rather than getting angry about scenarios that only exist in your imagination.

1
 Alkis 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> The fact is most cyclists can't stop, many are out of control, yet they rely on good luck or careful drivers to not kill them. I would not always bet on this.

Bullshit.

> Any incident is still the driver's fault.

Bullshit.

2
 profitofdoom 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> We were heading towards Coniston. As we turned up the hill, round the tight bends, we were met by about six cyclists flying really fast coming straight towards us on our side of the road. They were unable to stop and completely out of control.....

I do sympathize with you. When I drive round a blind bend, or over a blind hill, I go slowly enough so that if there's a traffic jam out of sight, or something stalled in the middle of the road, I won't hit them... I'll be able to stop in time

But someone zooming round the blind bend or over the blind hill on my side? Am I supposed to foresee and prepare for that??

 Trevers 14 Jun 2021
In reply to bridgstarr:

I tend to wave motorists through when it's safe to do so. It's not so much to influence their behaviour, more to indicate to them that I'm aware of the situation and I'm not trying to hold them up. It does tend to make me a bit nervous if I have someone hanging back unnecessarily when it's clear and safe to overtake because it suggests that they might be a nervous/indecisive driver.

1
 Richard Horn 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

>  If any of them ever get hurt - inevitably it will always be the driver's fault.

Unfortunately this is not the case - in fact you can pretty much murder someone with your car and you may well get away with it. "Accidents" are usually a consequence of deliberate choices made. Personally I would have no problem seeing the law come down like a ton of bricks on car use, why should I fear for my childrens lives each time they walk along the road? Really I have no concern about them being hit by cyclists.

As for calling other people arrogant, read your ridiculous post back to yourself and see how dumb it comes across.

4
 timjones 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Trevers:

> I tend to wave motorists through when it's safe to do so. It's not so much to influence their behaviour, more to indicate to them that I'm aware of the situation and I'm not trying to hold them up. It does tend to make me a bit nervous if I have someone hanging back unnecessarily when it's clear and safe to overtake because it suggests that they might be a nervous/indecisive driver.

How do you decide that they are hanging bak unecessarily?

They will know the overtaking capabilities of their own vehicle and you have to remember that being behind you and quite possibly sat lower than someone on a bike their view is likely to be quite different to yours

1
 Timmd 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> The fact is most cyclists can't stop, many are out of control, yet they rely on good luck or careful drivers to not kill them. I would not always bet on this.

This is what might be called a sweeping generalisation. You've got an incident from very recently, and 5 years ago, and they form your generalised view that cyclists rely on good luck and careful drivers not to kill them?

It was about 18 years ago that I realised that it doesn't matter who is right when cycling in traffic when I can still get killed, after going through a phase of being freaked out by drivers changing lanes without indicating, not checking their blind spots, and underestimating my speed before pulling out because I'm a cyclist and small in profile, or simply not looking first, and there was the car which something didn't seem right about  as I neared a mini roundabout,  too, which turned out to be a random old lady who flew across it and looked across at me in surprise (just one 'random' which sticks in my mind).

Automated and predictable self driving cars might be a game changer...

Post edited at 13:48
 Richard Horn 14 Jun 2021
In reply to timjones:

> They will know the overtaking capabilities of their own vehicle and you have to remember that being behind you and quite possibly sat lower than someone on a bike their view is likely to be quite different to yours

Isnt that the point? On a blind bend, cyclist being on the outside gets the view round the corner earlier than the driver who (being seated on the right) is close to the middle of the road. I wave drivers on blind bends out of curtesy, its not meant as slight on their driving brilliance, some drivers ignore it and make their own decision, some even give a hoot to say thanks. 

1
 timjones 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Richard Horn:

> Isnt that the point? On a blind bend, cyclist being on the outside gets the view round the corner earlier than the driver who (being seated on the right) is close to the middle of the road. I wave drivers on blind bends out of curtesy, its not meant as slight on their driving brilliance, some drivers ignore it and make their own decision, some even give a hoot to say thanks. 

It would be exceedingly foolish to commit to overtaking before you are able to see enough clear road to pass safely.

How do you know that the random stranger waving you on has the ability or experience to make such a critical judgement on your behalf?

1
 Timmd 14 Jun 2021
In reply to timjones:

> It would be exceedingly foolish to commit to overtaking before you are able to see enough clear road to pass safely. How do you know that the random stranger waving you on has the ability or experience to make such a critical judgement on your behalf?

That's what I was half thinking.

Post edited at 13:59
1
 Richard Horn 14 Jun 2021
In reply to timjones:

> How do you know that the random stranger waving you on has the ability or experience to make such a critical judgement on your behalf?

A cyclist is unlikely to do it as a joke as the consequence of two cars meeting head on in the vicinity of the cyclist is that one of them might end up ploughing into the cyclist... Most drivers would intrinsically trust another car "flashing" them to let them out / lane change etc, so I dont see the difference, unless you somehow have it in your mind that motorists operate with some higher level of spacial awareness.

2
 galpinos 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

What a car crash of a thread. Yes, in the case you mention, the cyclists were in the wrong. However, extrapolating that to:

"Why is it that such a high percentage of people become complete stupid selfish arrogant dickheads the minute they get on a bike?"

is bonkers.

I drive and cycle. I'm not a "leisure cyclist", I use my bike to get places. Cycling and driving around Manchester I see traffic infringements all the time and the vast majority are from vehicles, not bikes. I see speeding, mobile phone use and red light jumping every time I head out. This doesn't make me think all motorists, "become complete stupid selfish arrogant dickheads the minute they get on in a car", that would be stupid.

It does however, make me question my safety when walking and cycling around, and that of my wife and kids, and it leads us to modify our behaviour, probably to the determent to our health and that of the environment. The sad fact is car kill, bikes don't. Buying into the ridiculously fabricated culture war does no one any favours.

In your particular case, I imagine the fact your are in the Lakes, probably lead to worse cycling etiquette as more cyclist will be on a mission/on holiday so may not behave as well as they should. That statement also holds true for motorists too though.......

1
 DaveHK 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> DC: climber, cyclist, driver.

Based on your posts I reckon we could add on a few more ...er descriptors to that list.

Post edited at 14:22
3
 timjones 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Richard Horn:

> A cyclist is unlikely to do it as a joke as the consequence of two cars meeting head on in the vicinity of the cyclist is that one of them might end up ploughing into the cyclist... Most drivers would intrinsically trust another car "flashing" them to let them out / lane change etc, so I dont see the difference, unless you somehow have it in your mind that motorists operate with some higher level of spacial awareness.

You  shouldn't trust any other road user to flash or wave you out, the only exception that I would make is where someone has been specifically asked or offered to see me out of entrance where the visibility is poor.

If you've never seen an accident or near miss due to someone making a move based solely on a flash or wave you are very lucky.

1
 Glyno 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> Some of the responses to this story have been helpful, partly answering the question, others plain weird or stupid.

> This was not an isolated incident however, here is another tale from about five years ago:

> Ambleside-Coniston road, grid ref 331025, the bends and hill just south of the Little Langdale junction.

> We were heading towards Coniston. As we turned up the hill, round the tight bends, we were met by about six cyclists flying really fast coming straight towards us on our side of the road. They were unable to stop and completely out of control.

> I put the car straight into the side of the road which is very rocky, just managing to not wreck the bodywork or destroy both left wheels. I got as close as I could.

> Two of the cyclists just missed me, one by about half an inch.

> If our car had been a bus or a tractor, at least two of those idiots would have been killed or seriously injured.

> The fact is most cyclists can't stop, many are out of control, yet they rely on good luck or careful drivers to not kill them. I would not always bet on this.

> Aproof or ny incident is still the driver's fault.

> The original question remains.

> DC: climber, cyclist, driver.

the fact is, you can write anything on the internet without any proof or credibility in an attempt to back up a previous load of bollocks.

...Not that I'm suggesting anything in this instance mind

2
 Trevers 14 Jun 2021
In reply to timjones:

> How do you decide that they are hanging bak unecessarily?

> They will know the overtaking capabilities of their own vehicle and you have to remember that being behind you and quite possibly sat lower than someone on a bike their view is likely to be quite different to yours

That's a judgement based on many factors, and what I believe the capabilities of a road-legal car should be. I can't define it for you. I'm not about to wave someone past if there's any doubt. As I said, I do it out of courtesy more than anything else, and it's regularly reciprocated with a friendly wave.

As a cyclist, I tend to run with the assumption that my judgement and awareness are better than other road users around me. It's not borne of arrogance and it may not even be true, but I'm not going to regret it if my assumption is wrong.

Post edited at 15:11
 timjones 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Trevers:

That is sensible enough but sadly passing up on an opportunity that you can see is not always a sign of anything other than good manners and common sense.

It isn't polite or sensible to hang on to the back wheel of a cyclist with the engine screaming braced for the overtake and all too often once you have seem the signal, dropped a gear and checked that the road is genuinely clear of oncoming traffic it is too late to make the move without risking cutting the cyclist up to safely complete the pass.

Sadly we don't all drive nippy little sports cars ;(

Post edited at 16:23
1
 bridgstarr 14 Jun 2021
In reply to timjones:

> It would be exceedingly foolish to commit to overtaking before you are able to see enough clear road to pass safely.

...and yet a small minority of drivers are quite content to overtake me on blind bends without any indication from me that I think it's clear.  So as many have said before, drivers and cyclist as groups contain some who's judgement is poor. We just have to do the best we can to minimise our personal exposure to that risk.

 JimR 14 Jun 2021
In reply to bridgstarr:

I wave cars past when they've been behind me for a while, the driver is clearly timid and the road is clear. I don't wave past in marginal situations. I usually get a wave or light flash to say thanks. I have put cameras on my bike and I submit a police report on average about once a month, although there was one weekend when I submitted two. I do over 800 road miles a month on the bike so I suppose my chances of encountering dangerous idiots is that much higher. Oh, and before anyone asks I've also driven about 1.2 million miles in cars.

 Yanis Nayu 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Thanks for your 2 anecdotes. I could give you two anecdotes from every ride of drivers who from either incompetence or malice have put my life at risk. Drivers endangering cyclist is by many orders of magnitude a bigger issue on the roads than cyclists putting themselves at risk. The problem with posts like yours is that it all feeds-in to the sentiment among a significant minority of drivers that cyclists’ lives don’t matter. 

1
 MG 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Trevers:

> That's a judgement based on many factors, and what I believe the capabilities of a road-legal car should be. I can't define it for you. I'm not about to wave someone past if there's any doubt. As I said, I do it out of courtesy more than anything else,

The rules of the road don't really lend themselves to supplanting someone else's judgment and decision making as a courtesy. Other dangerous examples are waving someone on when against the right of way, flashing headlights and so on.  

 timjones 14 Jun 2021
In reply to bridgstarr:

> ...and yet a small minority of drivers are quite content to overtake me on blind bends without any indication from me that I think it's clear.  So as many have said before, drivers and cyclist as groups contain some who's judgement is poor. We just have to do the best we can to minimise our personal exposure to that risk.

There is no "and yet" about it, sadly there are people who are exceedingly foolish in all walks of life ;(

I wasn't aware that I was suggesting that any group of road users is any worse than the rest, I was merely explaining why I do not commit to overtaking based on something as tenuous as the judgement of a total stranger that just happens to be travelling in the same direction as I am.

1
 Trevers 14 Jun 2021
In reply to MG:

> The rules of the road don't really lend themselves to supplanting someone else's judgment and decision making as a courtesy. Other dangerous examples are waving someone on when against the right of way, flashing headlights and so on.  

No, but I believe the reality of the road justifies it. The majority are breaking the rules most of the time. If I can create a bit of extra understanding between road users without endangering anybody, why shouldn't I?

Besides, I'm not trying to "supplant" their judgement, just make it clear that I'm happy to be overtaken. But in other situations, I may have to directly act to supplant the judgement of other road users.

Post edited at 18:22
 wercat 14 Jun 2021
In reply to RobAJones:

Yes I was, after riding to be a spectator at Aira Force first.  I was really annoyed at how some spectators blocked what should have a good view for all.

> Was anyone else at the top of the Struggle when the Tour of Britain went up it? 

 wintertree 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Trevers:

> No, but I believe the reality of the road justifies it. The majority are breaking the rules most of the time. If I can create a bit of extra understanding between road users without endangering anybody, why shouldn't I?

Wave me through or not, I don't mind.

But... as a motorist in charge of 1500 kg of metal with 200 kJ of energy, and as the person who would carry the legal and moral consequences of any death or injury my vehicle causes, I am categorically not going to overtake (a car, a tractor, a bicycle, whatever) when I can't see the way ahead is clear.  My responsibilities - to others and to myself - are non transferrable to a person I don't know, and neither my conscious nor a judge would accept that as an excuse should the worst happen.

So, if I don't overtake you and continue to sit a safe distance behind waiting for the road and view to open up, accept that.  It's maddening when a cyclist or horse rider starts becoming stupidly agitated when I don't follow when they wave me through.  It's my judgement call to make, and my responsibility to carry if it goes wrong.  

The exact same rant applies to drivers trying to cede priority at a junction.

 Trevers 14 Jun 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> So, if I don't overtake you and continue to sit a safe distance behind waiting for the road and view to open up, accept that.  It's maddening when a cyclist or horse rider starts becoming stupidly agitated when I don't follow when they wave me through.  It's my judgement call to make, and my responsibility to carry if it goes wrong.  

Totally. I said upthread I may get a bit nervous if I think someone is holding back excessively, but I'm not going to get aggressive or change my behaviour. I would probably just look for a safe spot to pull to the side and let them past.

 wintertree 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Trevers

Sorry; I missed your upthread post.

> I would probably just look for a safe spot to pull to the side and let them past.

Yes, as approaches go it'll give you a much better day than getting irrationally angry at the car who won't be waved through.  

 MG 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Trevers:

> No, but I believe the reality of the road justifies it. The majority are breaking the rules most of the time. If I can create a bit of extra understanding between road users without endangering anybody, why shouldn't I?

That's  of course fine and welcome but misses my point - it is endangering people.

> Besides, I'm not trying to "supplant" their judgement, just make it clear that I'm happy to be overtaken. 

The point is you may not be trying to but you are putting strong pressure on drivers to trust your judgement. In the same way someone yielding their right of way by flashing lights may think they are being polite but in fact are making things more dangerous by encouraging people to trust someone elses judgement. 

Post edited at 20:52
3
 Richard Horn 14 Jun 2021
In reply to wintertree:

>   It's maddening when a cyclist or horse rider starts becoming stupidly agitated when I don't follow when they wave me through.  It's my judgement call to make, and my responsibility to carry if it goes wrong.  

You are being pretty ignorant here. If a cyclist is getting agitated then its likely they are getting nervous that you are building up tension and are getting ready to either scream abuse as you go past, or try and do an aggressive close overtake which might involve a brush with death. Its the bullied being nervous of a potential bully, not someone getting angry that you are not obeying their command. 

10
 wintertree 14 Jun 2021
In reply to Richard Horn:

> >   It's maddening when a cyclist or horse rider starts becoming stupidly agitated when I don't follow when they wave me through.  It's my judgement call to make, and my responsibility to carry if it goes wrong.  

> You are being pretty ignorant here. If a cyclist is getting agitated then its likely they are getting nervous that you are building up tension and are getting ready to either scream abuse as you go past, or try and do an aggressive close overtake which might involve a brush with death. Its the bullied being nervous of a potential bully, not someone getting angry that you are not obeying their command. 

That’s an out of the blue claim of ignorance and I disagree.  It’s very rare that I’m offended by what anyone says to me on here but I am now.

If I’m driving several seconds behind a cyclist, in a high gear without excessive engine noise and am not holding an aggressive or posturing road position, then if they’re so fragile of mind that they become agitated and angry when I don’t defer to their judgement over my control of my potentially lethal vehicle for which I am morally and legally responsible, they probably shouldn’t be on the road. 

If they want to get angry at me for being safe, that’s their problem.  If they’re so wound up and stressed out by past events when cycling that they can’t notice that I am in no way threatening them frankly they need to reevaluate what they’re doing. 

When I’m cycling, if I’m worried about a car building up tension behind me, I find a spot to pull over for a few seconds, I don’t lather myself up in to angry gesturing.  Because: safety.  I also do this if I’m driving a car slowly for some reason, or if someone behind me is obviously agitated to go faster and is putting my safety at risk.  

Post edited at 22:45
 wercat 15 Jun 2021
In reply to wercat:

disliker, having ridden up Kirkstone isn't it reasonable to expect to be able to watch the riders coming up?

Man up and say why this is not so

1
 Richard Horn 15 Jun 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> If they want to get angry at me for being safe, that’s their problem.  If they’re so wound up and stressed out by past events when cycling that they can’t notice that I am in no way threatening them frankly they need to reevaluate what they’re doing. 

Its a bit like saying women should not be nervous of walking home alone at night because you have never been abusive yourself. Its perfectly reasonably for people to be fearful of past experiences, the fact that you yourself are not the root cause is irrelevant. I have cycled 20k miles over the last 5 years and I still havent mastered the art of knowing who is going to pass politely and who is going to be an asshole.

You suggest nervous cyclists should quit, but if you are getting so wound up (maddened I think you said) by a nervous cyclist, perhaps you can explain why its you that should be keeping your place on the road and not the other way around? 

7
 wintertree 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Richard Horn:

I think you're reading totally the wrong things in to my post.

>  but if you are getting so wound up (maddened I think you said) by a nervous cyclist, perhaps you can explain why its you that should be keeping your place on the road and not the other way around? 

You might look up the meaning of words before you go off on a total misinterpretation.  I said "It's maddening when a cyclist or horse rider starts becoming stupidly agitated when I don't follow when they wave me through".  

Maddening does not mean angry (you misinterpreted there).  It means very annoyed.  It's very annoying to be getting gesticulated angrily at because I'm driving safely behind a cyclist, waiting for the chance to pass them without putting them, oncoming road users or myself at risk and exercising the control over my vehicle for which I and I alone, not you and not them, will be held responsible.

Nobody likes having someone be very angry at them, least of all when you're driving.

You then say:

> but if you are getting so wound up (maddened I think you said) by a nervous cyclist,

I hope we've now established that I am not getting wound up.  

> perhaps you can explain why its you that should be keeping your place on the road and not the other way around?

Ah, I understand the problem.  You're replying to a made up message I never wrote.

Pray tell, where did I say they should not be keeping their place on the road?  I have said no such thing.   They keep their place on the road.  I keep mine, safely behind them until such time as it's safe - by my judgement - to overtake.

All I want to change is that if I don't think it safe to be waved through by them, then I would rathe they continue cycling normally instead of angrily gesticulating at me - no need for them to get het up, and I'd rather they were concentrating on their own safety than at having a go at me for not being irresponsible with my potentially lethal killing machine.

I did say "If they’re so wound up and stressed out by past events when cycling that they can’t notice that I am in no way threatening them frankly they need to reevaluate what they’re doing.".  I stand by this.  As you don't seem to be reading my posts very well, let me explain "reevaluate what they're doing" means what it says - if someone finds themselves gesticulating angrily at a random stranger who is doing them no harm, it's time for change.  That's a wide ranging statement that in no way implies they should be off the road. 

You seem to be interpreting my posts as somehow anti-cyclist.  Let me go back to my first one: "The exact same rant applies to drivers trying to cede priority at a junction."  I also mentioned horse riders.  As with everything else on the roads, it's more about the person in charge of the vehicle/animal than the mode of transport.  

You jumped on the cyclist part and started making excuses for someone being angry and calling me ignorant.  Do you think I should overtake any bike waiving me through instead of using my judgement?  Or perhaps you'd like me to stop and have a chat with the occasional one that gets angry when their attempt to wave me through is declined?   Otherwise I really don't know what I can do differently, other than not arguing with someone who calls me ignorant because they don't understand what a key word I used actually means.

As it happens, not being an idiot, and being a rider and a motorist, I understand full well why cyclists don't want people close behind them for prolonged periods, even when the car is driving courteously.  It makes me nervous.  I understand why some waive cars through, although I don't recall ever having done that.  I find it maddening that we're in a situation where some of them get angry about it - things shouldn't be so messed up.

> Its a bit like saying women should not be nervous of walking home alone at night because you have never been abusive yourself. 

Bad analogy.  Less bad analogy: Someone, if nervous of walking home alone at night, should not gesticulate abusively at potential threats.   Here is the flaw in your justification of the behaviour; if a cyclist is so traumatised by past close passes and aggressive behaviour that their response to a considerate driver is to get angry and start gesticulating, do you think that is more likely to improve or worsen their situation?

I don't buy that it's always a trauma response frankly because I see the same with some motorists when I sometimes don't respond to them attempting to yield their priority at a junction.  

1
 MG 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Richard Horn:

> Its a bit like saying women should not be nervous of walking home alone at night because you have never been abusive yourself.

Cyclists getting agitated because drivers won't defer to their judgement about when to overtake is nothing like that.

> You suggest nervous cyclists should quit, but if you are getting so wound up (maddened I think you said) by a nervous cyclist, 

It's not nervous cyclists that are the problem here, its overconfident cyclists who think they know better than drivers about when to overtake and get annoyed when drivers refuse to obey them

1
 Sean Kelly 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

After 2 very dangerous encounters cycling in the last week alone including a very aggressive driver,  I can only remind all motorists of Highway Code para 163!!! However this does not apply to 'white van man'.

 Richard Horn 15 Jun 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Pray tell, where did I say they should not be keeping their place on the road?  

> I did say "If they’re so wound up and stressed out by past events when cycling that they can’t notice that I am in no way threatening them frankly they need to reevaluate what they’re doing.".  I stand by this.  As you don't seem to be reading my posts very well

I have read this again and in the context I still take "reevaluate what they're doing" as stop cycling on the roads.

> As it happens, not being an idiot, and being a rider and a motorist, I understand full well why cyclists don't want people close behind them for prolonged periods, even when the car is driving courteously.  It makes me nervous.  I understand why some waive cars through, although I don't recall ever having done that.  I find it maddening that we're in a situation where some of them get angry about it - things shouldn't be so messed up.

Agreed

> Bad analogy.  Less bad analogy: Someone, if nervous of walking home alone at night, should not gesticulate abusively at potential threats.   Here is the flaw in your justification of the behaviour; if a cyclist is so traumatised by past close passes and aggressive behaviour that their response to a considerate driver is to get angry and start gesticulating, do you think that is more likely to improve or worsen their situation?

People who are scared/nervous do not always behave rationally... Of course its likely to get worse. What I find offensive is that their actions are being questioned more than the actions of drivers who cause them be nervous in the first place.

 Mike Stretford 15 Jun 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> > No, but I believe the reality of the road justifies it. The majority are breaking the rules most of the time. If I can create a bit of extra understanding between road users without endangering anybody, why shouldn't I?

> But... as a motorist in charge of 1500 kg of metal with 200 kJ of energy, and as the person who would carry the legal and moral consequences of any death or injury my vehicle causes, I am categorically not going to overtake (a car, a tractor, a bicycle, whatever) when I can't see the way ahead is clear.  My responsibilities - to others and to myself - are non transferrable to a person I don't know, and neither my conscious nor a judge would accept that as an excuse should the worst happen.

> So, if I don't overtake you and continue to sit a safe distance behind waiting for the road and view to open up, accept that.  It's maddening when a cyclist or horse rider starts becoming stupidly agitated when I don't follow when they wave me through.  It's my judgement call to make, and my responsibility to carry if it goes wrong.  

> The exact same rant applies to drivers trying to cede priority at a junction.

Totally agree. Learned a lesson many years ago which was just a very close call fortunately. The practice should become a social no no to fall into line with the actual law should something happen.

 hang_about 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Weird responses round our way. I cycle in the Peak District (or are you allowed to call it The Peaks if not going climbing) several times a week.

On the Ringinglow Road that heads out, you get all sorts of behaviours. The road is straight but bumpy - there are lots of blind hills and double white lines - yet it is a rarity that a motorist will wait rather than overtake on a double white. I've seen a lot of near misses and a few wrecked cars. Apparently it's one of the worst roads for cyclist injuries in Sheffield.

The roads behind Hathersage are fairly steep and very narrow. Occasionally there will be a car behind me. They will always wait courteously until there's a passing space and I'll often wave them through as I can slow a bit, pull into the passing space even if it's on the other side of the road, and they can get by easily.

The thing is - these areas are just a few miles apart but on one road you expect to go fast, so people behave irresponsibly, whereas on the other you expect to be slow and people behave appropriately. In most cases the delays would be the same - a few 10s of seconds.

 chris_r 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> And the tarmac is the pavement.. 

In the UK, the two parts of the road are correctly known as the footway and the carriageway.

Pavement is a term that relates to a man-made surfacing material, this could be cobbles, setts, concrete or bituminous macadam. Tarmac is one brand name of bituminous macadam. 

1
Roadrunner6 15 Jun 2021
In reply to chris_r:

I know. I’m from the UK, but I’ve never heard the term carriageway apart from when used with dual.

 Alkis 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Not even when used with single? <runs away />

 chris_r 15 Jun 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> I know. I’m from the UK, but I’ve never heard the term carriageway apart from when used with dual.

I often think that the civil engineers who came up with terms wanted to cause as much confusion with the general public as possible. 

The Design Manual for Roads and Bridges (DMRB) is the Highway engineers' bible.

This link is for pavement on Carriageways (roads to you and I):

https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/prod/attachments/c042429b-a50d-4a4b-...

This link is for pavement on Footways & Cycleways (pavements to most people in the UK):

https://www.standardsforhighways.co.uk/dmrb/search/313250ad-268f-45fd-9446-...

 RobAJones 15 Jun 2021
In reply to wercat:

> Yes I was, after riding to be a spectator at Aira Force first.  I was really annoyed at how some spectators blocked what should have a good view for all.

I watched the sprint at Hesket Newmarket and then proceeded to worry that I would be able to cycle directly to kisrkstone before the peleton. I was remembering the two ambulances as well as wiggins taking the p*ss out of Frome

In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Just in from my lunchtime ride, 1 punishment pass from a white van and one car trying to shoot round me on a blind bend nearly going into the front of an oncoming vehicle and just finding the gap. And y'know what? I didn't run a single red

 wercat 15 Jun 2021
In reply to RobAJones:

I made the mistake of wandering away for a few moments so I missed Wiggins by seconds, typical!  The weather up there was a total contrast to earlier in the day.

 JimR 15 Jun 2021
In reply to willworkforfoodjnr:

Just back from a 57 miler, one idiotic mercedes driver rushing to squeeze past me on the traffic calming chicane at a village (I was doing 25mph on the bike) then jamming on his brakes at the sleeping policeman immediately, then at the next sleeping policeman and then braked hard to turn off left (without indicating) immediately in front of me, punishment pass from builders van complete with abusive language on completely empty straight road (old A1 running parallel to new one), another van overtaking me close (again on old a1) then immediately turning off  in front of me causing me to brake hard and take evasive action (I was doing 28mph at the time). Everyone else was fine.

 GrahamD 16 Jun 2021
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

Stop press ! Tourist in the Lakes on a bike on the wrong side of the road.

Ergo, all cyclists are idiots.

In reply to Longsufferingropeholder:

The bread knife and I were stampeded by a group of ramblers on Kinder a few years ago. It is a problem whenever you get groups of people doing something. We all lose some awareness of our surroundings in a large group. I don’t take it personally but will log the experience for a future rant! All part of life’s rich tapestry.

 Alkis 16 Jun 2021
In reply to JimR:

Just for s***s and giggles, let's apply Dave's logic here: "Why is it that such a high percentage of people become complete stupid selfish arrogant dickheads the minute they get in a white van/Mercedes/taxi? If any of them ever kill anyone - inevitably it will always be the cyclist's fault."?

Anyhow, another story this brings to mind, the hill from Belper to Kilburn, past Openwoodgate tends to be the end of any long cycle I do, as we usually set off from a mate's place there. A couple of times I've had taxis tail me, flash their lights and beep while I descend at 40MPH, which is the limit. That road ends on sensor-controlled traffic lights on top of that anyway, and being the minor route those lights are practically always red when you get to them.

 Bobling 16 Jun 2021
In reply to Sean Kelly:

> After 2 very dangerous encounters cycling in the last week alone including a very aggressive driver,  I can only remind all motorists of Highway Code para 163!!! However this does not apply to 'white van man'.

Very timely this as the Taxi who zoomed past me where there wasn't space in the bus lane got from me...
Me:"How much space should you give me?"
Him: "I gave you space"
Me: "Highway code, paragraph 163, as much or more space as you would give a car"
Him: "Sorry mate"

Winner!

 JoshOvki 16 Jun 2021
In reply to Bobling:

> give motorcyclists, cyclists and horse riders at least as much room as you would when overtaking a car

The way some people drive they hardly give an inch when over taking a car! I then to give much more space to cyclists etc. At the moment I have a squeaky brake (disc rubbing on the pad), and feel quite bad hanging behind a cyclist with that damn squeak, to me if feels like I am pressuring them despite being several meters back


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