UKH

I've just watched some film footage of this and observed....

Police hugely outnumbered.

Protestors with shields and weapons.

Protestors wearing helmets, other protective gear.

Police in blue paper masks and baseball caps.

Violence and aggression from protestors.

Missiles/objects thrown at the Police from close range.

Police having to group in small numbers being attacked from 3 sides.

I'd be interested in other people's thoughts on this....how these protests can be managed. I have a little bit of crowd control experiencece from many decades ago but hardly on this scale and without protective kit or good logistics and bakup

A percentage of these people will be Covid positive I would imagine.

Is this a Police numbers issue? Nowhere near enough of them for sure or is it the light touch so as not to be criticised as over the top. I would seriously not want to be facing that day in and day out. 

Definitely time to ramp up the approach in my opinion....hope the police officer who took a bottle in the face is ok. 

Better to just Cs gas them. They'll wish they have masks on then. Or just let a few covid infected folk cough their way through the crowd, their allegedly strong natural immune systems can decide their fate. 

Wait until we reach the Z variant. WORLD WAR Z for real. Getting chased about the place by mad anti vaxer zombies.

It was disgusting. What I find a bit odd though is that when many right-minded people would like to see the Police get a bit heavy-handed and dish out a few straighteners they don’t, but when some female hippies sit on the road singing Kum by Ah the batons come out…

There's a “Christmas Party at Downing Street” thing doing the rounds on social media. Initially I think it was just satire on the No 10 parties that our leaders were happily taking part in last year. Unfortunately it seems to have emboldened the anti-vax, anti-lockdown dickheads who now think they are some sort of freedom fighters fighting the Illuminati or similar bollocks.

TBH I'd have no problem with baton rounds and a good kicking to restore order.

Same with any protest in London that turns violent. 

I have a mate in the met who ended up getting his face split open during the BLM protests. 8 stitches and the mother of all black eyes.

The met are used to it so I’m sure they’ll cope.

At least they aren’t as bad as the XR lot.

If a bunch of loons don't believe in covid, masks, vaccines... then fine it's their choice. But they should allow others the same freedom, if they don't wish to and want to try and ram their beliefs down others throats, they shouldn't be offended if they are dealt with appropriately. 

Agreed....I noticed the use of water cannon in Belgium which looked pretty effective. 

There needs to be a redress of power relations with this stuff, chucking metal posts at the police close up because you don't want to wear a mask....this needs consequences and dealing with there and then on the ground!

it looks to me like they are fully aware they can outmuscle and outflank the police....they looked very dangerous and with sinister intent, maybe a few targeted baton rounds would dissipate the frenzy and collective malice...

In what way are XR worse? Certainly not in terms of violence

The TSG must be bouncing off the walls after the last 21 months…?

There must be plenty who've lost relatives in the last two years who'd be quite willing to help disperse the crowd. 

So I’ve got 3 pretty close mates in the met. Of all the protests they had to deal with during their time on the beat they all said that XR was the worst.

Relentless work, double shifts, a couple of hours sleep and then back to the grind. They we’re baying for blood by the end of the week.

I’m really struggling to understand the attitudes on here. The police have an incredibly tough job and face real danger on a day to day basis. But violence against anti-vaxxers is no more acceptable than it is agains XR hippies or BLM protestors.

There are posts on UKC complaining about the police not investigating a certain party. They just can’t win and deserve more respect.

I spose the difference from my perspective is that while I never support the violence at a UK protest, sometimes I agree with the cause, and sometimes I think the cause is pathetic bellendry.

Do you make that distinction, or are all causes of protest equally valid?

Go on then. Show us how the XR lot are worse - or you just expect that we'll think that's true because you say so?

Sadly, a lot of people are pro-violence when it suits them. 

We're sliding towards a fascist state under the current government... The last thing we need is a public crying out for police violence.

XR may be “the worst” to deal with because they’re smart and they understand how to maximise disruption without putting the police at risk.  I have disagreed strongly with their approach and I think it puts others indirectly at increased risk; I do not support their methods.  But the police can’t be the first to escalate the use of violence and have to keep their escalation of force to an absolute minimum, and XR understand this full well.  I have been proud to watch the response to them, it reminds me how grateful I am that this is not France or the USA.

Members of a conspiracy fringe who have been effectively weaponised by the deliberate pushing of misinformation and warped mindsets through social media are a different kettle of fish.  They’re victims as well as perpetrators, no different in a way to vulnerable individuals coerced in to acts of physical terrorism.  But they can’t and mustn't be allowed to set precedents that break policing by consent for the wider nation; not least because I suspect this is one of the things their puppet masters want to see happen.

I think we still have intelligence services.  We should use them.

Violence isn't necessary or essential, could just use of tigers on chains to herd them onto a ferry, then drop them all on some uninhabited Scottish Island, then return for the next batch? Circuses must have struggled over the last 2 years, they'd be grateful for the work. 

So worse as in the Met wasn’t resourced to deal with them not worse as in the behaviour of the protesters themselves.

Careful, your bias is showing 

Lots of parties as it turns out but I don’t understand your point?

Hahaha! The XR lot are worse because the police had to do double shifts!

That is priceless!

I agree, the violence is unacceptable in all cases. However, the emotional salience is different. If a total bell-end gets punched in the face, I'm not bothered, or it makes me smile, but when someone who's done nothing wrong or is trying to do good gets punched in the face I feel sad and angry. Those emotional responses are absolutely reasonable.

I think if the met want more respect, they're gonna need a better PR manager at least - if they can't manage to earn the respect through intelligent strategic decisions that demonstrate integrity. Carry on like this, and they're making themselves look like pricks. Sounds like you're asking us to respect the police because they are the police, not because they deserve respect.

The officers on the ground aren't in charge of PR, and it sucks for them to get the flak. But yeah, when their bosses f*ck it up time and time again, that's the consequence.

Exactly. My suggestion of tear gas was met by shrugs when I suggested how to move 60 year old women from middle of the road. No - apparently you need 6 strapping young lads to carry her off. And she’s probably going to be back the next day…

I was very sceptical of your suggestion of malicious interference in terms of anti-lockdown/ anti-vaccine stuff at first. Bad actors seemed nonsense - just people with different views.

As time goes by it seems more and more plausible. A bit dim + someone with a view to push and money to push it with - is a dangerous mix.

In general I think most  recognuse policing is necessary, often tough and often thankless. However, when things go wrong, obvious bullshit excuses and in some instances outright lies really don't help.the police maintain support

Indeed no more. Or less.

To be fair, if we are looking at which group of protestors are weaponised by pushing of misinformation, there is an argument that both groups are.

XR are trying to achieve some ill-defined social change by deploying large numbers if well meaning innocents whose goal has been to clog up the CJS by clogging up London. It's Roger Hallam et Al who are basically a group that want political change, looking for a cause they can use to effect it.

The anti-vax lot appear to be driven by a bizarre combination of left and right wing grifters who see this as a means to appear to be striking against those in power, whilst actually just providing them an opportunity to bask in the spotlight and crowdfund their incomes.

Looking at the impact on the UK it would appear the XR have far and away more impact, the anti-vaxxers are a lot of noise with very little heat.

I don't know how the XR movement splits between those who are sincere about the goal of changing policy with respect to climate change and any hijacking of this legitimate movement to achieve other goals. Not certain I would know who to trust on this issue.

Do you really believe that?

Anti-vaxxers cause the deaths of innocent people, day in, day out. Then they spread death and disease and misery into the population by infecting minds with vicious lies. Do you think that's just like protesting about climate change, or has the gravity of people watching their sons and daughters and parents die needlessly passed you by? 

Im getting to the point, especially as we skirt close to another lockdown, where I'm happy to donate my body and soul to a bit of anti-vaxx bashing.

I hate this govt, the state we're in and the state of this country, but give me a free pop at a dunderhead brexiter or anti vaxx/mask weirdo and Im happy to say I'd do stuff my kids would be uncomfortable describing their dad to their friends.

I'd be happy to operate the factory that processed the anti-vaxxers, brexiters, the government and all their arse-lickers into useful products like glue and dog food. I would make it quite humane, and wouldn't inflict unnecessary suffering on the input materials, but I would take great satisfaction in transforming them from poison and detritus into competitively priced household produce.

In terms of public order impact the anti-vaxxers certainly have less effect. And unless I am totally mistaken that was the thrust of the discussion.

To be fair, it's a reasonable point you raise though, about the wider impact.

I'm not sure how much a bunch of muppets running up and down and swearing at cops really does to actually help the anti-vax "cause". I think the protesting anti-vaxxers are more a symptom of the insidious disinformation campaign and grifters than the driving force behind the campaign.

. 

Fair enough - I was getting at the point, does it matter what the protests are about?

That sounds right to me. God knows what the actual distribution of power, and the intention behind it is in the anti-vax movement. I just know that the world would be better if they were all turned into dog food.

The use of water cannon in UK mainland needs to be explicitly licenced by the home secretary which is political dynamite in UK mainland and very unlikely to ever happened. It wasn't so long ago some idiot spent lots of money on 2 which couldn't legally be used and ended up being sold off at waste of taxpayers money, but let's not name them  

Just because something happens in Belgium doesn't mean it'll happen here.

I once was required to go on some training which involed being shown some pictures of injuries inflicted by a water cannon. (basically eyeballs everywhere, well nearly everywhere apart from people's heads). As much as I hate anti vax f*ckwits I'm very glad we live in a water cannon less society.

Just a simple question Off-Duty:

What is your definition of "grifter"? I am asking as I have heard the term before, but am not sure of exactly what the meaning covers, rather than to score any points. I just want to educate my ignorance.

I'm using it the sense of a con man who makes a dodgy living by lying to others. I'm not convinced that many of those with the highest profiles really believe what they are saying, but they know what the mob want to hear.

That's absolutely appalling! I would hope that tigers are no longer kept by circuses.

Could always just put George Galloway in a cat suit? 

The people stirring up this sh*t are the same rich people who prop up the Tories with money and favourable press coverage in the Daily Mail etc.  

They are going to get soft treatment from the cops because the Tories don't want to mess with their own support and a section of the Tories finds them useful.  It's the same deal as the right wing idiots who got away with an unbelievable amount of stuff when Trump was in power.   If Cressida Dick told the cops to get tough with these guys, she'd be sh*t out of luck for her peerage and she'd be retiring early and replaced by someone Pritti Patel thought would do as they were told.

If there were protestor's eyeballs all over the street when water cannon were used they'd be stopped pretty damn fast in most EU states.   Almost certainly serious injuries are a possibility if they aren't used according to procedures but you can also get badly hurt by a rubber bullet or truncheon.

Thoughts?

https://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/scottish-news/five-arrested-following-an...

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/heavy-handed-police-shut-down-anti-lockd...

Wasn't it like the Raleigh Bomber but without the gears? Or have I got that jumbled up

The Grifter had the 'twist grip' 3 speed gears. The Chipper was the ungeared version of the Chopper.

Showing my age now!

We're getting dangerously close to the torture of prisoners now. Live rounds would be kinder.

My recollection is that the grifter had three gears, twisty handlebar fashion.

Not that it mattered, as it had the mass of a wheelybin filled full of chopped up anti-vaxxers.

I find it a little amusing that you think these conspiracy fringe people have puppet masters controlling them from behind the scenes. That's such a classic conspiracy trope, you're effectively using your own conspiracy theory to diminish other conspiracy theorists.

Of course they would think exactly the same thing about you, totally mirrored. You've been brainwashed by your own puppet masters, who control X institution and Y platform, you have been misinformed and are being used as a pawn to further their agenda.

There’s influence - not control - behind the covid conspiracy nonsense.    

Of course they would.  But they would not find any of the following behind me: a web of companies (held together by quite a few people previously active in brexit campaigning), professionally designed websites pushing pseudo-medical content, large social media campaigns, people organising protests, funded leaflet and sticker campaigns running nationwide, the list goes on.

There is a concept called “evidence” and it’s hard not to see if if you start looking.  Byline Times have pulled quite a lot together.  There is more.

They'd find their own webs of companies, political links, websites, pushing what they would allege as pseudo-science, using social media platforms and people organising protests. All there to influence you into the opposite agenda.

Do the police not just trawl through video footage after the event and then make arrests for the most violent offenders at these demos?

Science is not pseudo science.

Yes, they’d claim parity and I’m well aware I could argue until I’m blue in face with with people who wilfully don’t understand the difference.

But they’re the ones filling intensive care right now, not the science types.

You seem to be equating the knowledge held by normal people about the world with the false beliefs of anti-vax wankers.

Do you believe in objective truth, or are all opinions on what happens in the world equally  valid? You fond of the odd "alternative fact"?

Funny how going through video and pics and arresting folk who broke the law later works for demos but not for garden parties.

Seems fair to me.  

Told them to p*ss off home.  They didn't.  Some of them got nicked.

I was watching the protest footage the other day and wondered if it would be a good tactic to paintball specific (violent) protesters with that dye they use to explode money on bank robbers, wait for the crowd to disperse then pick up the wrong-uns later.

Going head-to-head against a mob is just confusion and carnage (which is what many protesters obviously want)

Wasn't the Chipper a dwarf version of the Chopper? My kid brother had one I think. He was too small for a Chopper. Me and big brother had those.

LOL...pity it was not a violent party then.

Chipper might have been smaller, but definitely lacked the knacker-traumatising 'shift-stick' on the crossbar.

Ye the Police got more aggressive at the BLM rallies than at these ones. Hmm

Yep. It isn't funny because violence is involved but it always amuses me a bit when people demonstrate, allegedly for freedom, but won't accord freedom to anyone of a different view.

I think the anti-vax protest are particularly stupid - no one is trying to force them to get vaccinated.

I saw a photo of an anti-vax protest where someone was holding a sign saying, "My body, my choice". Absolutely fine by me as long as anyone who wants the vaccine has the choice too and any business has the freedom to restrict people who are unvaccinated if they so wish.

Dave

The nub of the problem is deciding what is true.

Some philosophical “truth” may indeed be a matter of opinion like “the truth of our risen Lord” or the “True account of what passed between Dr John Dee and some spirits” or if alien life exists or not elsewhere in the universe. But some truths are grounded in how the physical world works. I remember one time someone argued with me that the physical world was an illusion that we create around us and it doesn’t really exist. A few days later one of these illusions knocked me off my bike when I wasn’t looking.

When faced with a world wide pandemic the quality of the information you receive is paramount in the decisions you make in confronting it. To which I think well who says it? what is their bias? what is their evidence? And apply occam’s razor.

The thing I find with the conspiracy theorists is the lack of rigorous analysis and plethora of confirmation bias in their postings. The scientific papers I look at use language like “This indicates” or “We don’t know” and give a breakdown of their methods, sample sizes and conflict of interests. They may not be accurate and one might wonder at the veracity of a study with only a small sample size and poor controls but these are infinitely better than those pushing the anti-vax stance. I have seen “This proves” and “they won’t tell you this but” “They don’t want you to know” language, I have seen data twisted to fit a particular narrative, I have seen data omitted, I have seen data dismissed out of hand without explanation and always is that background belief in the state lies to you.

Now I am quite happy to believe that Boris Johnson lies to me, or that the media get information wrong, but to believe that every science lab in the world is in cahoots with some centralised super power when governments the world over can’t even agree over climate change is an unnecessary complexity.

Yup my business my choice not to let you in and infect my customers

Why specifically an uninhabited Scottish island? Do they have special qualities other uninhabited islands don’t have? Surely you’d save fuel for the ferry by using the something much nearer London?

I think people are just venting. 

Everyone's sick of this, whether you're directly dealing with the pandemic or feeling the consequences via other ways patience is pretty thin.

Is it any wonder we see this lot being violent towards the police and pushing their agenda and think " Fck these guys, time to get medieval on their arses.."

Or just leave them on the ferry, moored up. I think there are few enjoying this kind of cruise just now in the Caribbean. 

Why not those forts in the Thames estuary ?

With a naval vessel preventing escape of course.

Yep, I made the mistake of arguing with a couple of locals on FB recently. These two, one is a local 'artist' and one is a local tree surgeon. They are both so convinced by their arguments and will not accept any refutation of their arguments. They have brought out pretty much the every anti-vax number on the weirdo bingo card. There's another trait of the anti-vaxxer seen on line and that is one of being a self-appointed educator of the masses, whether the masses asked for this education or not.

This local group is one of the :Spotted groups and quite long standing now. Not sure if you know of the type. Its a local FB group for local people. I fear that I might sound a bit snobbish but the inhabitants of this group tend to be of the lower order - there's lots of shouting, swearing, unpleasantness and a quick check of the profiles of many show the family's they are front and you can see straight away that they are likely not to wear a mask and spend Saturdays in Spoons.

That said, its a useful group to get local info on services, traffic, general awareness of what's happening. Problem is, there a lot of other stuff which I would rather try and avoid and I'm a bit of a sucker when it comes to arguing with online idiots.

My concern with a group of this type is that they rarely police their own group rules and this one in particular has an admin who seems to support anti-vaxx information. I have reported many people to the group admins and it gets ignored. I have reported many of the posts to FB itself and still it is ignored. 

Apart from creating a new group with better policing, which I wont have time for, what else can be done?

I get your frustration.

But as an artist and ex-gardener/tree worker I have to say we aren't all like that

Sheppey gets my vote.

Im delighted to hear it. My criticism isn't of their professions but drew attention to it because we have two unqualified mouthpieces splurging claptrap online.

Further edit in case my dislikers misunderstood me. I was not suggesting all people in this group are idiots but a good proportion are. Nor was I saying that all tree surgeons or artists are turds, just an unfortunately coincidence in this case.

What's the nearest uninhabited island to London? Could it be one of the Scottish ones? Are any of the Scily Isles uninhabited?

Maybe no - too small, too near the mainland, has a bridge

Isle of Wight? That's be great for a Kurt Russel Escape from New York-type scenario

I started following that as there were some funny memes to begin with, but then it started getting infiltrated with a load of anti-vax / lockdown posts so left.

Wasn't that the Tomahawk??

The chipper was a skinny younger kid version I think!

The Grifter weighed a tonne....no good for wheelies!

Tom....I hate yhe tories....and if I was Scottish I'd be pro independence so I have a lot of sympathy and agree with you frequently but I would t call the people rioting yesterday tory or anything except a bunch of angry violent tw**s...

Could we clear the Isle of Dogs? They might be happy to get out of the city. 

Well, I hope you are right. But if you look at what happened in the US and the many similarities between Trump and the Brexiteer Tories I wouldn't bet on it. 

There is a large correlation between antivax and pro-Trump in the US / or hard line Brexiteer in England and I don't see a contradiction between being an angry violent tw*t and hard line Trump supporter or Brexiteer.

Probably because none of those groups care about other people, especially people they don't know or from other countries. Adversarial.

XR have clearly stated aims and principles, and their leadership is know, visible and operating in public scrutiny.  The material XR uses to recruit is based in consensus science around the changing environment.

The aims and principles of the covid rabble rousers are unclear, their identities of their leadership (or the leadership of the influencers) is unclear, their recruitment and promotional material is based around scientifically and factually false content.

That is one interpretation, here is mine,.

I would suggest that Hallam's interest in political change is subservient to his interest in change on the environment.  It appears to have been his consistent motivating factor for a long term.  Hallam is using different vehicles with public transparency to push for change on a single issue.  He has one cause, and his different endeavours all reflect that.

Where-as some of the corporate fronts advocating towards the covid rabble are jumping on a new issue to push their unstated, unclear and unknown motivations.  But we can see how various of these people were previously company officers for corporate fronts advocating for Brexit, so we can start to conclude that they are indeed looking for any cause they can subvert to their goal.

Yes; XR are attracting lot of very smart people who have a genuine passion and commitment to their shared vision.  The covid rabble attracts gobshite idiots.  XR has the potential to be far more disruptive to society, but in terms of immediate deaths through sheer rank stuipidy the covid rabble is in a league of its own.  

As a long term threat to the status quo in the UK, XR would feature far higher up my list than the anti-vax rabble.  Of course, times change and some would argue XR are just ahead of the time this issue will become mainstream.  I remain far more worried about the common enemy behind various different fronts from the climate denialists through some of the Brexit campaigning to the covid rabble.  They're honing their playbook with each new crisis, and have run it out and an unprecedented pace over Covid.

It is clear that whilst I disagree with XRs tactics I have a respect for them that I don't have for the Covid rabble; I am clearly not bias free in my view.

I can see why XR may be a much larger problem for the police.

Lolz. Bantz.

The problem with cramming them in? Bridges can be redesigned.

Put some on Foulness as well. Would need to get rid of the military road and just leave the broomway as the escape route.

OK. So let's go with St Kilda - 40 miles offshore, usually with bad weather and seas around it

Keep your problems to yourselves, thank you very much.

Chiswick Eyot, big fence. Sorted.

Jon's post about processing people in a factory to turn them into 'useful products' reminded me - the film Soylent Green was set in 2022.

I was re-watching it last night coincidentally. Noted the 2022 myself, and the opening sequence has a lot of people wearing surgical masks. 

That was the Tomahawk.

No, we need that to hide from the Triffids

Funny how we are arguing ( tongue in cheek) over the siting of a concentration camp

OH NO!!!!! Don't tell me the Triffids are back?? What have you heard? Have you seen one? It's nearly Xmas, how dare they invade this week

Bojo will see them off. He's enormously competent and the best leader since Chamberlain, or Richard Nixon maybe

Here are the four bikes. 

I stand corrected.

Brilliant! Choppers don't look half as cool as we thought they did back then!

You’re right. But a racing bike with cow horns - they look cooler than I remember and I want one!

Of course, you're right. It's so long ago!

What?!! They were (and remain) the canine's gonads. I'd probably retract my gonads if I had to actually ride one nowadays.

Nothing wrong with a Chopper if ridden correctly:
youtube.com/watch?v=qNaqRgGOuQQ&

midges.

that is all.

My peer group were definitely "racing bike". We had bike tribes in the playground back then.   I got neither.

Damn right.  They were cool then and they're cool now. 

Maybe just take a tip from the guy on Mont Ventoux in that clip though - forget about the lycra shorts and stick with the old school cut-off denims for safety..

I prefer midges to Londoners.

Wow! Steady now!

Could we send the midges to London?

What about the Boxer?

Well that would be ideal; keep all the midges, Londoners and Covid in one place out of everyone's way.

Some form of M25 sized head net?

I had a Tomahawk when I was a young lad, loved that bike. Were they essentially the same as the Chipper?  My older brother had a Grifter at the time, mine was cooler though 

EDIT: Just seen the replies above 

Took this photo of a boxer riding a bike t’other day. Notice the lack of helmet. 

Seriously though, the funniest thing I’ve ever seen riding a bike was a bloke cycling no handed up a one way street drinking a can of beer. Best bit was he only had one arm. Piss myself laughing every time I think of it. In Leigh, home of the Lobby Gobblers. 

‘Poison’… have you heard yourself? That’s a f*cking vile post regardless of where you stand.

You hear about those other human beings talking about being made to sound subhuman and when you’ve got people like yourself talking like that it isn’t hard to give the slightest ear of sympathy. 

I am genuinely disgusted. 

He has a point though, midge season is May-August outside of that they're not usually a problem. Pearly kings and chirpy barrow boys in black cabs can be found irritating all year round

I had one and it was a long time ago!

And midges help deter Londoners.

On occasion, but by no means always. It's pretty labour intensive and it may well depend on the overall outcome of that day - eg normal low level pushing and shoving nonsense, or full on mass criminal damage etc 

I'm not sure I'd call Piers Corbyn a Tory...

I am also disgusted, 

But mainly cos I bet antivaxers taste bloody awful. 

You’ve tried dog food then?

Many years ago I heard an interview by Andy Williams (the American crooner). When he was struggling as a young man he was reduced to eating from the same can as his dog. He said it was OK. Dog food had proper meat in it then, not pulped ventricles and gristle.

One's a revolting insect which sucks the blood of anything it can in order to sustain its own existence. 

The other's a midge. 

I was thinking more of using the M25 as the foundations for a dirty great circular wall.

But a public school boy he was.

So?

Thanks Yoda.

When he wasn't commentating on motor sport, amongst other things Murray Walker used to be a marketing exec for a pet food company.  He would sometimes eat the product from the can to demonstrate to reluctant retailers that it was decent stuff worth stocking.

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p1c2EAAAQBAJ&pg=PT35&lpg=PT35&a...