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I've been thinking over the last few days that what we are seeing with Trump is an insanity that seems to manifest itself in many oppressive and dictatorial "leaders" as they come to realise that the game is up.
I presume that until he actually ceases to be president he still has access to the nuclear "trigger".
I would like to think that there is, certainly now of all times, there is some sort of safeguard in the event of Trump going completely beserk which, based on past performance, is not beyond the realms of possibility.
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In reply to Chopper:
I suspect that in the eventuality that Trump finally goes full on musth and demands access to the 'football', a secret service agent will deftly tackle him in a sublime bit of play that would shame George Best. At least I like to think that's what would happen.
Edit to add, that the most terrifying thing I can think of now is that N Korea 'test' an ICBM in the direction of Guam. "Just a routine test like... was gonna do it anyway....."
Post edited at 08:57
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In reply to DerwentDiluted:
> I suspect that in the eventuality that Trump finally goes full on musth and demands access to the 'football', a secret service agent will deftly tackle him in a sublime bit of play that would shame George Best. At least I like to think that's what would happen.
This very scenario comes up in "The 2020 Commission Report on the North Korean Nuclear Attacks Against the United States", which is a great read. Would recommend.
In reply to Chopper:
> I've been thinking over the last few days that what we are seeing with Trump is an insanity that seems to manifest itself in many oppressive and dictatorial "leaders" as they come to realise that the game is up.
> I presume that until he actually ceases to be president he still has access to the nuclear "trigger".
> I would like to think that there is, certainly now of all times, there is some sort of safeguard in the event of Trump going completely beserk which, based on past performance, is not beyond the realms of possibility.
https://www.standard.co.uk/news/us-politics/nancy-pelosi-nuclear-strike-don...
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In reply to DerwentDiluted:
But I thought they were mates(sarcasm)
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In reply to Chopper:
I think the idea that Trump can have a hissy fit and pull "the trigger" is a bit far fetched. I remember listening on the radio to a general being asked about this. He said if he was asked to do something unlawful he would say something like "We are not ready to proceed yet Mr President".
Of course the idea of a scenario where mass murder is lawful is another debate.
From what I've read in Eric Schlosser's excellent book "Command and Control" the president cannot just phone the guys up in the silo and order a launch.
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In reply to nikoid:
> From what I've read in Eric Schlosser's excellent book "Command and Control" the president cannot just phone the guys up in the silo and order a launch.
He could send them a tweet. Oh wait no he cant.
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In reply to nikoid:
> I think the idea that Trump can have a hissy fit and pull "the trigger" is a bit far fetched. I remember listening on the radio to a general being asked about this. He said if he was asked to do something unlawful he would say something like "We are not ready to proceed yet Mr President".
Some people might have thought the same about his mob attack on the capital.
The guys desperate to stay out of prison.
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
Do you reckon he could even open the football? Let alone know what to do with the contents. I bet he hasn't even looked at the user manual for the "very big bombs". 😀
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In reply to nikoid:
But no body knows more about "very big bombs" than Donnie!
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In reply to nikoid:
> I think the idea that Trump can have a hissy fit and pull "the trigger" is a bit far fetched.
If there's one thing I've realised throughout this presidency it's that absolutely nothing is "... A bit far fetched".
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In reply to Archmagos_Dominus:
Except that maybe isn't as simple a story as it seems.
https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-military/2021/01/08/maryland-govern...
In reply to DerwentDiluted:
> a secret service agent will deftly tackle him in a sublime bit of play that would shame George Best.
I'd rather see a bit of play that would shame Norman Hunter or Chopper Harris
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In reply to Chopper:
A simple overview here
https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/graphics/2016-nuclear-weapon-launch/
It'd be nice to think that within that chain of command there'd be enough people he's f*cked off that some don't follow through.
I suppose one must consider too what he'd decide to launch at. Iran or NK presumably.
Might move the impeachment along though.
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In reply to Chopper:
Trump has already gone nuclear. How else do you explain that face colour ?
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In reply to Removed Userwaitout:
Surely the target, in the event of an all out Trump nuclear strike, has to be Nancy Pelosi? probably at the inauguration. No wonder Trump wants to visit his bunkers in Scotland...
More seriously though you have to place faith in human nature and hope they substituted one of these for the real nuclear button:
https://media.4rgos.it/i/Argos/9164507_R_Z001A?w=1500&h=880&qlt=70&...
Post edited at 11:36
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In reply to Chopper:
In reality no I don't think so. There are enough people in the checks and balances a strike needs to go through, at least one of them will stop it. Pelosi has been having discussions with the pentagon on this subject already
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In reply to gravy:
> Surely the target, in the event of an all out Trump nuclear strike, has to be Nancy Pelosi? probably at the inauguration. No wonder Trump wants to visit his bunkers in Scotland...
> More seriously though you have to place faith in human nature and hope they substituted one of these for the real nuclear button:
Ha yes. With those little fingers it'd take him hours to stop playing with all four.
A while back there were some documentaries around showing the nuclear silos in mainland USA, and the state of repair they were in. Between the pizza boxes propping open doors, corroded electrics and 1960's push button interfaces sticking, things may not even be able to launch at all.
After the last four years I reckon Pelosi could take a direct thermonuclear hit and walk away no more than a nice tan, leaving a permanent Pelosi-shaped shadow across the floor of congress.
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In reply to Chopper:
NO! He could only go Nucular!
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In reply to gravy:
> Surely the target, in the event of an all out Trump nuclear strike, has to be Nancy Pelosi? probably at the inauguration.
Apparently she has already had words with some top military brass to keep Donald from pressing buttons he shouldn't.
In reply to Chopper:
Yes, a problem, but I think the main problem is having nuclear missiles (which cannot be recalled once launched) ready to go. And the possibility of an accidental launch
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In reply to Offwidth:
That's the single reason why the system of checks and balances in a democracy is above the individual. The system needs restoring, {because of that weak delay } by the process of resignation or impeachment to reiterate that the system in a democracy will always be greater than any single individual. Incitement to violence is also true but indirect. Trump directly failed to authorize the defence of Capitol Hill. Reports say he was distracted by being delighted by what was happening , walking around the Whitehouse but not acting.
But how do you make a man like Trump resign? He should do likeNixon - Nixon knew he would be successfully impeached and wanted to retain a vestige of dignity by getting in first and resigning.
Post edited at 13:51
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In reply to Chopper:
The US has a "two man rule" so the secretary of defence has to co-authorise an order to use nukes. And as others have said there are many people in the chain below that. Before Nixon resigned the necessary people were discreetly briefed on what to do and what not to do if he gave any unusual military orders, and it seems likely that similar conversations have occurred in the last few weeks.
If anyone is interested in the UK nuclear firing chain, it's described quite well in Peter book Thinking the Unthinkable. He addresses the point of what would happen if the PM became deranged. He also did a Radio 4 documentary called The Nuclear Button (might still be on BBC Sounds) that starts and ends with a rather chilling simulated launch on a RN Trident sub.
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In reply to stp:
> Apparently she has already had words with some top military brass to keep Donald from pressing buttons he shouldn't.
While this is extremely desirable given Trump’s instability is it within the remit of Pelosi and the military to decide when to launch nuclear missiles?
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In reply to Chopper:
I'm not so concerned about Trump trying to drop the big one-the military will politely tell him to get stuffed. What worries me are the large number of headbangers who really believe the election was rigged and would regard it as a patriotic duty to take Biden out. I really would not fancy being in charge of security for the inauguration.
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In reply to Removed Userwaitout:
Interesting. I didn’t know that during peacetime the default target for the ICBM’s is ocean. Somehow reassuring.
I did feel slightly uncomfortable with the revelation that the launch and target codes are “about the length of a tweet” however. 😀. I suppose on the plus side Trump would probably prefix the codes with a ramble about the election being rigged.
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In reply to Chopper:
Could Trump go nuclear? This comes down to whether or not the Donald is comprised of fissile material as everyone seems to agree he is sufficiently dense.
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In reply to Chopper:
> I would like to think that there is, certainly now of all times, there is some sort of safeguard in the event of Trump going completely beserk which, based on past performance, is not beyond the realms of possibility.
It's basically his cabinet deposing him or the military refusing orders so basically the latter.
Jk
In reply to Removed Userena sharples:
> I really would not fancy being in charge of security for the inauguration.
The USA has the most numerous and powerful military in the western world. All they have to do is use it. Even against, y'know, white people.
jcm
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In reply to Hat Dude:
Maybe that vinnie Jones tackle on Gascoine would be better😂
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In reply to Removed Userwaitout:
> there'd be enough people he's f*cked off that some don't follow through.
If I got an order for nuclear launch, I'm pretty sure I'd follow through after a loud and unpleasant trump...
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In reply to Hat Dude:
> I'd rather see a bit of play that would shame Norman Hunter or Chopper Harris
If we're playing this game can we just call it a day and say Brian Lima/Jerry Collins/Josh Lewsey?
(Type them into YouTube if you don't know. The thought is ahem....satisfying..)
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In reply to gravy:
> Surely the target, in the event of an all out Trump nuclear strike, has to be Nancy Pelosi? probably at the inauguration. No wonder Trump wants to visit his bunkers in Scotland...
Yeah. Trump behaving like the spoiled man-child he is, or simply wanting to stay out of the cross-fire?
More seriously, I am concerned that it will take more than a bit of bulletproof polycarbonate to protect Biden at his inauguration. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a concerted attack on him; RPG, M72 or similar. I do hope the Secret Service are taking this threat seriously; their jobs will be so much harder in the coming months, I think.
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In reply to captain paranoia:
> More seriously, I am concerned that it will take more than a bit of bulletproof polycarbonate to protect Biden at his inauguration. I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a concerted attack on him; RPG, M72 or similar. I do hope the Secret Service are taking this threat seriously; their jobs will be so much harder in the coming months, I think.
One of the most immediate actions they are hopefully already taking is to identify just who attacked the Capitol, as a number of Police and Military personnel were supposedly part of the mob. If indeed this is the case then these people need to be identified, charged and removed from office before there is any chance of them being behind the security curtain any President/Vice President or indeed any other members of the legislature has.
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In reply to Reach>Talent:
> Could Trump go nuclear? This comes down to whether or not the Donald is comprised of fissile material as everyone seems to agree he is sufficiently dense.
The Donald is definitely a few protons short of a stable isotope
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In reply to Removed Userena sharples:
> What worries me are the large number of headbangers who really believe the election was rigged and would regard it as a patriotic duty to take Biden out.
And who would that make pres?
In reply to captain paranoia
> I wouldn't be at all surprised to see a concerted attack on him; RPG, M72 or similar.
I think I would be.
In reply to nikoid:
I hope you're right.
In reply to peppermill:
> If we're playing this game can we just call it a day and say Brian Lima/Jerry Collins/Josh Lewsey?
I'll trump you (see what I did there) with Tana Umaga & Keven Mealamu on Brian O'Driscoll
In reply to felt: Kamala Harris, can't remember the sequence after that. In the mind of the attacker , at that point Donal and the military will seize power and kill all the Democrat paedophiles. So says the word according to QAnon.....
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In reply to Removed Userena sharples:
I'm amazed the inauguration is still happening. This is the US, many of these crazies will be quite proficient with a hunting rifle. They really are living in a different head space. I'm very relieved to be living in MA.
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In reply to wbo2:
It's president > VP > Speaker of the House then it gets a bit more obscure.
In reply to Roadrunner6:
Similar was forecast for Obama's inauguration. First black president, profoundly unpalatable to the beardy gun nuts, and a much bigger event in US election history. Loathe as I am to credit the American security services with anything, I think they've got this covered, except perhaps inside jobs.
In reply to Darron:
> Interesting. I didn’t know that during peacetime the default target for the ICBM’s is ocean. Somehow reassuring.
I think that was illustrating a launch from a submarine.
> I did feel slightly uncomfortable with the revelation that the launch and target codes are “about the length of a tweet” however. 😀. I suppose on the plus side Trump would probably prefix the codes with a ramble about the election being rigged.
Ha yes. I wonder if that was a then-subtle nudge (it's a 2016 article, by Bloomberg no less). I wonder too how case-sensitive it is, would it stick over misspelled bullshit in caps with no punctuation aside from fifty characters being exclamation points?
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In reply to Chopper:
If Trump goes nuclear Sturgeon better watch out.
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In reply to Roadrunner6:
I imagine there's a few ex-army handy with a sniper rifle too.
In reply to 65:
Obama and Michelle walked down the mall(is that what it’s called?). Not sure that would be advisable this time. Surely there has been a step change in risk?
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In reply to Chopper:
It's not like he presses a button and a load of nukes get fired into the sky. There's a whole chain of command involved - they have to follow orders but only if they're legal, I should think.
In reply to Removed Userwaitout:
> A simple overview here
"The encoded and encrypted message is only about 150 characters long, about the length of a tweet."
Oh dear... Ah, hang on! Phew...
In reply to Misha:
Yes, the words 'only' and 'about' in that description are what worry/amuse me.
In reply to Misha:
> It's not like he presses a button and a load of nukes get fired into the sky. There's a whole chain of command involved - they have to follow orders but only if they're legal, I should think.
Military chain of command so 'legal' has a different position. Somethings clearly are illegal under any form of law, but lots of stuff perfectly legal in the civilian world are not so under military law, including the acting upon orders in certain ways. The US is notorious for not ratifying international military legal processes, hence their constant issues with war crimes etc.
In reply to Misha:
I cannot believe the thread has got this far without mentioning 'War Games'
https://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/wargames
which has made it onto my PDV over the last few days. For a film that is nearly 40 years old, it is still right on the nuclear button, as well as being a lot of fun.
In the context of the documentary on 9/11 giving the perspective of the American high command, it still sends shivers down the spine.
In reply to 65:
I started coming to the US in 2009 so I don't really remember too much. I worked in TX so you were under no illusions he was hated but this seems worse but maybe it's not.
In reply to wilkie14c:
> Dr Stranglove
> Yeeehaaa!!!
"Thank you Doctor Strangelove for going doollally and leaving us the heritage of Damnation Alley".
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