UKH

Probably no sensible answer to this. What small vehicles get away with little congestion or no congestion charge in London, and are charged less on the streets, or wherever for parking.

 I seem to go to London a lot, and I may resume going to a simulator to practice at the Royal Free Hospital in Hampstead. I often go on the train, but I'm not sure of that due to trying to avoid the tube. I would bike, but I do not trust the bike not to either get stolen, or damaged, even when locked up. Walking would probably take too long, as I often go on the simulator, then into a gallery, then back to the simulator.

The question is partly due to possibly changing vehicle anyway, but are there any cheaper electric cars out there (second hand market presumably not large nor ideal)?

In Hampstead my van gets extra charges by Camden council, it's a 14 plate Caddy blue motion diesel (so bike carrying is easy). My car is a 2008 BMW 5 series estate diesel, so also gets extra charges. If I were to get a small car, would I be able to consider carrying a bike?? I suppose, a Moulton or similar.

In reply to veteye:

Just a thought, but E scooters are now legal on the roads. Wear a helmet though. It's a jungle out there!

In reply to veteye:

I use the Santander bikes a lot when visiting London and doing stuff where I'm moving around.

For £2 a day assuming your journeys are all under 30 minutes its very easy and an absolute bargain

In reply to veteye:

When I don't want to lock up my bike, I take my Brompton and it comes in everywhere with me.

In reply to lorentz:

No they are not. Certain areas are having a trial of hiring them out to be used in a set geographical area but you cannot use a personally owned one. The met police are one of the few forces that takes regular enforcement action against people riding them so not a good idea as you can get points on your license and large fines. 

In reply to Andypeak:

Can the police give points on a driving licence for an offence committed in/on a vehicle that doesn't require a licence? 

In reply to nufkin:

You need a license to operate one of the approved sccoters. 

In reply to Andypeak:

Yeah that's what I meant. Hire a scooter somewhere near where you can park cheaply or leave a car and run into centre on it. I don't know what the zoning system is like on e scooters yet, as it's all new, but they have a decent distance range per charge. Plus you won't arrive sweaty. Wear a helmet though & stay off the pavements and you should be good legally.

Edit: little more info on it. Seems hire companies aren't quite there yet in London, but it won't be long.

https://londonist.com/london/transport/e-scooters-legal-london-july-2020

In reply to Andypeak:

E-scooters and electric mopeds are two different things.  The latter requires a CBT, the former are still not legal and when they are look to only be rental ones (presumably so they can assure licencing and insurance).

In reply to La benya:

According to the department of transport you will need at least a provisional drivers license

In reply to Andypeak:

Ah yes! Didn't see that bit.

In reply to veteye:

Not knowing how far you have to travel this might be pointless but what about a 125 motorbike.  I got a Yamaha XT 125 for bobbing about local. You can ride it on a cbt, it's tall enough for a commanding view of the roads, fast enough for zipping through traffic and returns about 70 mpg.  You can probably find somewhere on the hospital grounds to park it out of the way. 

In reply to Dax H:

It's too far to travel sensibly on a motorbike. I did my CBT, a long time ago, on a 125. I have a cobwebbed 955 in my garage, that needs selling, as I'm unlikely to ride it again due to a plate in my neck, and the inability to turn my head much to the right (lifesaver), and certainly not as quckly as I would want.

Everybody has got fixated on the e-scooters and the like, but no-one has said anything about cars, including electric ones. Just too expensive?

Parking in Hampstead is v expensive, even with my younger, diesel van.

In reply to veteye:

No offence, I am posting with respect and not snark, but this is all a bit confusing so far. 

I don't know anything about smaller cars being cheaper to park than larger cars. Seems very unlikely. Not sure about electric cars. 

Sounds like you want to be able to drive to Hampstead and park, without paying whatever fee you pay for taking a diesel into that zone. 

Your posts become a bit puzzling. 
Your OP seems to say that you would cycle to Hampstead but it's too far (no surprise given your location in your profile). Maybe by "bike" (in the OP) you meant "travel by motorcycle". Then later it seems that you (reasonably) want to be able to ride a pushbike from the hospital toward a gallery, and back. 


You own a diesel Caddy and diesel X3. 

Are you looking to change one of these for the sake of London trips to the Hampstead hospital, mainly with a financial incentive? 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

No offence taken, your reply seems valid.

Firstly smaller conventional engines are charged less road tax, but that is also true for electric vehicles, but they seem v expensive. The last time that I bought a van for an employee in late 2017 there were no electric demonstrator vans in the country, and they were literally double in price, but perhaps they have reduced in price in the last 3 years(?). 

I am happy to drive to London, but when I have parked in Hampstead it seems that parking time is limited in most places, and costs ~£5 per hour. So I would like to reduce that payment, and would like to find a sensibly priced car that reduces the cost of parking too.

When I mentioned biking, indeed I did not explain enough: So I could get the train to Kings' Cross, and then take a bicycle from there to Hampstead, or park further out of central London, where parking is cheaper, and take the push-bike from there.

The simulator is generally only allowed to be used for approximately one hour, and up to three sessions are allowed in one day, and access is allowed almost 24 hours per day. In between sessions in the past, I have got the tube into central London and gone to a gallery or a music venue, and then returned to Hampstead by tube later. I am trying to avoid the tube, as advised at the moment, especially as crowding will build up, and increase the likelihood of the R factor changing, which I know is likely to be debated.

Another option is to stay with a friend in Ealing, and to bicycle to Hampstead from there, but time may be wasted in doing that.

It may well be that there is no easy solution to this. You may also say that I could find something to occupy myself locally in Hampstead, and indeed I have been for runs, and biked on Hampstead Heath, but I am member of 3 different London art galleries, and it seems sensible to make use of those memberships.

My BMW is a 5 series estate 08 plate diesel. Both this and the van are charged extra for parking by Camden council, which covers Hampstead. I would possibly buy a smaller car as a third vehicle as it's running overall would be cheaper, and smaller cars can find more spaces to park in the city. I may still keep the BMW for longer climbing trips where several people can fit into the single car (whenever we are allowed, or it is logical to do that again). A small electric vehicle would also work to traverse between my two businesses, which are about 13 miles apart.

So I agree there are complicated thoughts here, and I'm also sorry for the reply length.

In reply to Babika:

Where are the drop offs for Santander bikes near Hampstead? 

Train to Kings' Cross, Pick up S bike, cycle to Hampstead, drop at parking place there, pick up later. Is that feasible?

In reply to veteye:  for background I own an electric car, and used to live in London.   I'm not familiar with how parking is costed though.  I think that for what you need an electric will be quite expensive to buy, but that a car is a non ideal solution anyway. . So we get back to bikes, scooters....

In reply to wbo2:

Except as I said, I would use an electric vehicle between my two places of work, and it is supposed to be heading everyone having electric. 

What car do you have? How much? Second hand market? What to look for in the latter? You don't own the battery, from what I understand, so a dud battery should not be the concern(?).

In reply to wbo2:

Maybe I could drive an electric car to Hampstead w a Brompton bike in the back. Not be charged half so much for parking(?), then pedal into central London later, and bike back out to Belsize park/Hampstead.

What is the real range of an electric vehicle? Are the concentration of charging points in London pretty good. Or could I do a 200 mile round trip on one good charge? Swappable batteries?

In reply to veteye:

There are a range of bike and e-bike hire schemes in London. Some of them have awkward zoning problems though so check first. E.g. lime, mobike, tfl

Best budget e-car is probably the renault zoe but you still need to pay to park it. Public transport and shared use schemes are always best in London IMO.

Possibly look at a car club.

Citymapper is a great app for journey planning and includes all the usual public transport plus bike hire, zipcar etc. You can tailor it for personal preference and it updates live. I couldn't get around London without it now.

In reply to veteye:

The range really depends on what you want to spend. The top of the range new Tesla Model S is now rated to 400 miles, at the bottom of the market you can pick up a version 1 2011 Nissan Leaf with 80 miles range for about 5k, with every combination in between. There is a thriving second hand market but the demand means the I have not seen them go for much less than this. Batterys are lasting really well.

The cheapest new ones are the VW eUp and the Seat/Skoda equivalents that are all under 20k brand new with about 170 mile ranges.

Tesla Model 3 is definitely best all rounds option if you would usually buy a BMW. 

With the Leafs you have to look at the battery sizes as they come in 24, 30, 40 and now 60kwh sizes with very different ranges and prices. 

Have a look at the You Tube channel EV Man, he has a a very good set of recent guides to the second hand market broken down into price bands. 

I can't help you with parking but there may be some deals for parking and charging. Good luck. 

In reply to veteye:I use an old Leaf, and it's the easiest car I've ever owned but the range is pretty limited so I cn't see that working for you.  You'd need to something like a model 3 or Kia e-niro... but you still get the pleasure of driving round London.  They'll certainly hve 200 mile range. 

With virtually everything except the Zoe (?) you own the battery, but it's guaranteed, and the old scare stories about batteries depreciating x % every year appear to be just that.

e-bike?  That seems a perfect solution for you.  It's only a few kms from Hmpstead to the various galleris  I have no idea about charging points in London now - moved away some years ago.

## Swapping batteries is a lala land idea by pretend engineers.

In reply to veteye:

Get a 10 year old Citroen C3 Picasso with a diesel engine, for about £2500. VED is £30 a year. 650 mile range. 55mpg. 119g/km 

Drive to Amersham or Leytonstone or some other outer district with an overland train to Hampstead. Take a folding bike with you. 

In reply to veteye:

Think (double check this though!) that fully electric cars are exempt congestion charge in London, but probably not parking charges (though you may find they're discounted in some places.) Though if you were to park it plugged in in a car charging bay in town l for a few hours whilst you pootled around a gallery, that might be a solution? 

I think charging bays availability varies from Council to Council. They've sprung up all over the place round my way (Merton) but I've not noticed so many in other boroughs (but that's very probably because I don't look out for them.)

I've no idea regarding charging costs I'm afraid. E bikes might be a good option. Quicker through the traffic certainly! 

In reply to veteye:

Contract manager at work changed his (owned) diesel for an electric car on lease.

Reckoned what he saved on fuel costs more  than covered the lease.

You need to do the maths for your circumstances, (and factor in the green points).

In reply to wbo2:

I always thought London would be a great please to own an electric moter-scotter - vespa size - 45mph.

They are very popular in Taiwan with a large battery swapping network. It probably would not work for large cars due to the size, but these you just swap by hand into locker style vending machines and just pay for the difference in power between old and new one. You can also carry it into your apartment for home charging and security. I believe they now outsell gas scooters in Taiwan. You could get something similar in London for zipping about on but would have to home change. 

In reply to Rick Graham:

I looked at the Tesla 3 this morning. Obviously pretty pricey (£46,000 or so), and they say that you can save of the order of £70 per month, which doesn't seem to fit with what your Contract manager is saying, but maybe I'm wrong. Even with a cheaper car £70 wouldn't cover the lease.

In reply to veteye:

Just to clarify, as I think your stated overall goal has been buried in thread noise...

You are looking to save money on the occasional trips to Hampstead that would also include trips to more central galleries, by purchasing a third car and a folding bike, because you are worried about theft and vandalism to a standard pushbike locked up in the street in central London. Is that about right? 

In reply to Blue Straggler:

Going back to Hampstead will be more than occasional. I went on 20-25 days between January and February, with 2-3 visits per day involved. 

I would buy the car for other reasons as well, if I bought it: Namely to go between workplaces, but also on longer journeys where not much luggage would be needed, and also with respect to the environment. Yet that is not the only considered solution. So head to London by train and take a folding bike, which I have considered for a while, since I am usually a season ticket holder at the proms, and go to galleries a fair amount of times in a year (I realise that the train is not perfect, but it is better than the tube). Plus booking a bike on the train is not straightforward, whereas presumably a folding bike is less of concern.

My bike fits in the BMW, but it is a faff to take the seats down etc. It's fine with the van.. Yet I would consider bike hire if it could work.

I understand that you are saying to me, "the rational thing is to drive, accept the high price of parking, and take your normal bike, and accept that it may be damaged or stolen. That is cheaper than the other solutions". Yet there are other factors at play.

In reply to veteye:

Thanks for clarifying. Can I ask what this simulator is or is that a delicate matter? 

I was not being flippant when I suggested a diesel C3 Picasso btw 

In reply to veteye:

Alternatively...just rent a room in a house share in Hampstead 🤣

In reply to veteye:

I've seen a few Nissan leaf and plenty of Toyota Prius around.  I don't know much about them, but its somewhere to start looking I guess.  

In reply to veteye:

This is absolutely not aimed at you personally, and is perhaps something of a tangent to your original post, but I find myself increasingly resentful about almost anyone driving around in London. A lot of this is probably thanks to the bygone glory days of April and May when the streets were astonishingly clear (which is still somewhat the case in the central area, actually, but traffic seems to be pretty much back to normal further out in the boroughs). Cars now seem too noxious, too big, too often driven by arses, and just generally unnecessary.
All of which is a ranty way of suggesting getting ahead of what seems likely to be an increasingly difficult driving environment in London and using a bike - electric if going up to Hampstead seems too strenuous, folding if leaving it outside isn't safe, or simple, relatively cheap and replaceable if its getting nicked is going to be hard to forestall

In reply to veteye:

Kia picanto. Great small 5 door. No congestion charge or residents parking for us (Richmond borough) and get a 7 year warranty which seems to apply even if you buy second hand (made use of it).  Very easy to park also. 

In reply to veteye:

This might seem a silly suggestion but would it not just be cheaper and easier to take the train into London then get an Uber to and from Hampstead?
 

By the time you’ve bought and parked and electric vehicle it’s going to cost more than getting a train couple of Ubers each time, and they’re generally hybrid vehicles anyway so carbon footprint is lower than petrol/diesel cars

In reply to Blue Straggler:

The simulator is for practice for minimally invasive surgery (keyhole surgery). It may be not available as soon as I would like, especially since the Royal Free Hospital is one of the key hospitals for dealing with Corona virus. I am aware of the arguments there, but the simulators are in the basement of the hospital, away from most clinical activity, and also away from as much human traffic. The downside to that is that it is not particularly salubrious, and conducive to passing long hours between sessions, especially since there is no natural light there.

I realised that the suggestion of a Picasso was a serious one, yet I do not know if I want to buy another diesel, especially after listening to Greta Thunberg's summer diary commentary on Radio 4.

In reply to nufkin:

Why do you think that I am asking about electric vehicles, and small cars? Plus you cannot always get the train, even if there are fewer members of the public on them generally. In the early part of the year, many weekends did not have trains running into London down the east coast mainline, due to track work.

I have never in all of this thread said anything about an electric bike myself. Normal bicycles are alright, but neither may be fast enough to come from some parts of London, to where I want to be. e.g. If I stayed at my friend's house in Ealing.

In reply to Iamgregp:

I had not thought of Uber taxis, but it may be that I would need to use as many as six in a day, if I do three sessions in Hampstead. Another idea to mull over.

In reply to veteye:
Ah yeah maybe 6 a day is a wee bit much!

Maybe a combination of busses when you’ve got plenty of time (probs around 40 mins from Hampstead to central London) and Uber when you’re a bit pushed for time.

ive taken a few busses during lockdown, usuually pretty empty and people have been good at keeping their distance, though that might be because I’ve had my dog with me!

In reply to veteye:

Sorry, I didn't mean that as a patronising suggestion, just that the electric assistance takes some of the sting out of the prospect of cycling when maybe you're not in the mood to face it otherwise. 
Ealing to Hampstead is probably about 15km - very doable in less than an hour on a bike, depending on route and traffic. Not really sure how that would compare to driving, but at busy times I doubt it'd be much quicker