Cecil Rhodes Statue

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Seems Oxford have voted to remove the statue from above a college hall.  I have mixed view on the removal of statues and the whitewashing of history but in this case I think its a very wise decision (of course it has to go through planning and listed building processes before it can be removed).

Rhodes wasn't a 16th century Briton but a relatively modern Victorian, imperialist, colonialist, white supremacist, divisionist and all round nasty individual.  Many of his actions and words, driven by his ideology, wouldn't have been out of place in late 1930s Germany.

I think on this occasion the decision to remove the statue is correct. He should not stand proud aloft a global centre of education but should most certainly be preserved in a museum with a very detail explanation of his behaviour.

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 Andy Hardy 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

And should the university of Oxford stop the Rhodes Scholar scheme?

3
 Dan Arkle 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

What would you do about his Rhodes Scolarships?  - which have enable 100 outstanding young people to come and study in the UK every year.  Rename it? Add a compulsory decolonisation course?

2
In reply to Andy Hardy:

No, but it could be renamed.

Do you think such a figure should have such pride of place in one of the world's most prestigious universities?

As I said, which you have conveniently straw manned, he was a modern figure who was the architect of some pretty awful policies and the holder of some pretty appalling views so what is your opinion of maintaining a statue in his honour at the college?

9
 Jackspratt 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The problem with everything these days is the polarisation of the argument. We consistently associate each side with their worst faction. BLM are associated with looting and rioting (more so in America), people against removal of statues are associate with the EDL and Football hooligans from last weekend, if you voted Brexit you hate immigrants, if you vote Labour you are a snowflakey benefit claimant, vote tory and you hate the NHS and poor people etc etc.

I honestly couldn't give a flying wotsit about statues. Do I think they should all be pulled down? some of them maybe, the links are getting a bit tenuous and the criteria muddled. Do I care if they are? no. 

I'd think that in the grand scheme of racism statues aren't going to make a difference but then again what do I know, I'm not subject to its oppression.

it's hard to judge people today based on the opinions of yesteryear. I'd hazard a guess that anyone from about 100 years prior hated gay people. Pretty much every religion told them to. I suppose the distinguishing factor would be how vocal and active they were on their views.

2
In reply to Dan Arkle:

> What would you do about his Rhodes Scolarships?  - which have enable 100 outstanding young people to come and study in the UK every year.  Rename it? Add a compulsory decolonisation course?

See my last comment.  The Rhodes Scholarship could easily be renamed.  I wonder whether an outstanding young person of African ancestry would feel so honoured to receive such a prestigious scholarship from an individual who thought that the best he/she could hope for would be to work in manual labour for white masters.  That said, the irony isn't lost on me that if such a scholarship was indeed awarded this bright young person could see it as way of sticking two fingers up at Rhodes.

 Jamie Wakeham 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

The University of Oxford hasn't voted on anything.  The last statement made by the VC a few days ago was very much in favour of keeping the statue.

Oriel College, which is one of 40-odd colleges that make up the university, and on whose wall the statue stands, has 'expressed a wish' to remove it.  That's pretty important because the statue is the private property of Oriel - it's really nothing to do with the university as a whole.  It's also nothing to do with the Rhodes scholarships - these are run by Rhodes House.

But expressing a wish and actually doing something about it are different things. I don't think we will see the statue coming down any time soon, sadly.

Post edited at 09:09
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

Thanks for clarifying.  My thoughts are still the same.

 wercat 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

in this new age it's time we brought down the great landowning Norman feudal families too - a history of repression and exploitation of the pedestrian classes.

Keep the monarchy as they work for us but cut out the middle Norman Henchmen who took Britain for themselves

 Trangia 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I think on this occasion the decision to remove the statue is correct. He should not stand proud aloft a global centre of education but should most certainly be preserved in a museum with a very detail explanation of his behaviour.

I believe the name of Rhodes Scholarship should remain, because he gifted it along with his estate at  Kristonbosch which he left to the South African Nation, now the home of the beautiful world class botanical gardens near Cape Town. He was a ruthless business man with imperialist ambitions in keeping with his generation, but I don't believe he was any worse than his contemporaries, just financially more successful.

Your detailed explanation of his behaviour, if the statue is rehoused in a museum, should be balanced in the light of his times for and against, but changing the name of the scholarship won't undo the wrongs. You liken his behaviour to that of the Nazis, but Hitler is still remembered for building the original autobahn network., which was a good thing for Germany no matter how evil he was in other respects. 

Good is good and credit should go for it no matter how unsavoury the benefactor is.

 Jamie Wakeham 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I'm in agreement with you - I very much think the statue should come down.  There are enough impediments to bring a black student here without having to see Rhodes towering above you on a daily basis as well.

But I do think it's important for everyone to recognise that this is a decision for Oriel, and not the University as a whole. And also that (to the best of my knowledge) it wouldn't make the slightest difference to the Rhodes Scholarships - I don't believe there's any stipulation in the will that they're conditional on a statue. 

I'm not sure where the £100 million that Oriel claimed it would lose covers into this. The figure covers from a 2016 interview; I think it's an estimate of donations that the college believes would be withdrawn if they took the statue down, and nothing to do with the Rhodes Trust, but I'm ready to be corrected on that.

cb294 18 Jun 2020
In reply to wercat:

No idea if you meant that ironically, but it would indeed be a good idea to cut the land owning aristocrats down to size. Noone should own large fractions of their country just because their ancestors were successful criminals.

CB

 Andy Hardy 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

My view is that statue removal is probably best described as window dressing, an easy "win" for the BLM campaign and and a largely symbolic "loss" for the college. My question was not really intended as a straw man, more to highlight the other, and arguably more pertinent aspects of Rhodes' legacy, which have an ongoing influence.

FWIW I think they should make Rhodes Scholarships exclusively for BAME candidates, that'd get the old boy spinning in his grave.

1
 Kalna_kaza 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think the statue should remain. Whilst he was undoubtedly a nasty character with values and ambitions few of us would endorse we simply can't air brush history to fit modern standards. 

If we start with statues of every historic figure (good or bad) then we may as well dismantle most historic buildings as they were surely built with the profits from unsavoury practices of the past. Most European cities would be a shadow of their past if we went down this route. Far better to educate and learn from the past than rewrite history.

In a similar vein how far back would you go, dismantle the what remains of ancient Rome, the acropolis in Athens or the pyramids of Giza?

5
 Philb1950 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Rhodes scholarship states “ No student shall be qualified or disqualified for a Scholarship on account of race or religious beliefs”

 Pefa 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Are Egyptian, Roman or Greek descendents impacted by those statues/monuments in the way black people are to ours? 

Post edited at 10:01
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 Kalna_kaza 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Pefa:

> Are Egyptian, Roman or Greek descendents impacted by those statues/monuments in the way black people are to ours? 

I'm fairly sure that all these empires had some very negative impacts on descendants of a large number of people who happened to come under their control. The passage of time since the respective collapse of each empire clearly doesn't right the wrongs of the past but has a lesser impact future generations.

1
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> My view is that statue removal is probably best described as window dressing, an easy "win" for the BLM campaign and and a largely symbolic "loss" for the college. My question was not really intended as a straw man, more to highlight the other, and arguably more pertinent aspects of Rhodes' legacy, which have an ongoing influence.

I'm confused by much of the BLM movement messaging and feel they, probably supported by ANTIFA sympathisers, have made a mess of recent events when they could have held the high ground.  Instead, they seem to seek to bully, manipulate, conflate and confuse.  I also think too many folks have jumped on the bandwagon because they are out of work, off school or simply bored so want to go cause some mayhem.  I also don't need to be told what I should think when it comes to racism and can make up my own mind on what's racist or not.  I think there's too much telling at the moment and not enough listening.

I have my doubts about removing a statue of a slaver who died almost 300 hundred years ago, who committed atrocities by today's standards but where people can walk past, perhaps read a plaque and learn or if they are offended decide to avoid it. 

I have different feelings about someone who held very abhorred views on race, who felt that people with black skin should have no rights and who believed wholeheartedly that we (British white in particular) were a superior race.  This person died only a hundred years ago and now, as someone says,  still lords it over many people of colour still who cant avoid walking past the building, hoping to be educated.

One thing I can say is that the recent events have been useful in helping me understand more about our past in Britain.  I've never read so much about our very specific history and that can only be a good thing.

> FWIW I think they should make Rhodes Scholarships exclusively for BAME candidates, that'd get the old boy spinning in his grave.

For sure!

Post edited at 10:38
 Wainers44 18 Jun 2020
In reply to cb294:

> No idea if you meant that ironically, but it would indeed be a good idea to cut the land owning aristocrats down to size. Noone should own large fractions of their country just because their ancestors were successful criminals.

> CB

I think you are being unfair. Our local Lords and Masters here have been away for a while, which you know because the flag isnt flying on their castle.

But even from wherever they are they are still looking after us peasents. Lots of new "PRIVATE " signs have appeared on gates around the estate, and that must have generated loads of local employment. 

Me, I love a faceless detached hereditary autocrasy....

 galpinos 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Trangia:

> He was a ruthless business man with imperialist ambitions in keeping with his generation, but I don't believe he was any worse than his contemporaries, just financially more successful.

His contemporaries thought he was a lot worse than them, censuring his name in parliament, trying to block his honorary doctorate, barring him form the royal enclosure at Ascot etc. He was a controversial and often unpopular figure at the time, according to a historian friend who seems more informed than me, and it seems it's not just a case of him "looking bad with 21st Century eyes".

 Dave Garnett 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I'm in agreement with you - I very much think the statue should come down.  There are enough impediments to bring a black student here without having to see Rhodes towering above you on a daily basis as well.

I think Oriel is right to take it down and put it somewhere less public, but it hardly towered over the High.  In over three years I never even noticed it, and without binoculars I doubt anyone would have a chance of identifying who it was.  Of course, once you've been told who it represents it becomes a visible symbol but it wasn't nearly as provocative as Colston's statue in Bristol.  

As for the Rhodes Scholarships, it seems that Nelson Mandela was content for the name to continue when he linked his foundation with it, as Chris Patten commented when asked about it.

 Andy Hardy 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Philb1950:

I wonder just how many BAME Rhodes Scholarships were awarded in the first 100 years of the scheme? (to pick a nice round number at random)

 Dave Garnett 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Trangia:

> I believe the name of Rhodes Scholarship should remain, because he gifted it along with his estate at  Kristonbosch which he left to the South African Nation, now the home of the beautiful world class botanical gardens near Cape Town.

Yes, interestingly, although his statue by the rugby pitch at UCT has been removed, his bust at the memorial remains (with his nose repaired) and his grave at Matopos in Zimbabwe is still a significant tourist attraction I think. 

 yeti 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think Pefa has a point, the Romans enslaved millions of white europeans, it was just a long time ago

but a statue isn't history, it's just a statue, history is in the books and wikipedia 

and mebbe the statues should be replaced with some decent sculpture....

 Jamie Wakeham 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> ...without binoculars I doubt anyone would have a chance of identifying who it was.  Of course, once you've been told who it represents it becomes a visible symbol...

I think that's the thing.  I hadn't the faintest idea about it either whilst I was a student, but now everyone knows exactly who it is.  And it's pretty easy to spot as soon as you know it's the highest one of all on Oriel's frontage. 

I do wonder if it would have become such a focus if it had just been one of the lower rank.  It's just a symbol, but symbols (and symbolic acts) can be powerful.

 gravy 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Good riddance!

 marsbar 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Jackspratt:

>then again what do I know, I'm not subject to its oppression.

Are you a student at Oxford?  

 Jackspratt 18 Jun 2020
In reply to marsbar:

> >then again what do I know, I'm not subject to its oppression.

> Are you a student at Oxford?  

not with that grammar I'm not!!!

 Trangia 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Dave Garnett:

> Yes, interestingly, although his statue by the rugby pitch at UCT has been removed, his bust at the memorial remains (with his nose repaired) and his grave at Matopos in Zimbabwe is still a significant tourist attraction I think. 

Yes, both the memorial in Cape Town and his grave in the Matopos, Zimbabwe are significant tourist attractions. I have been to both, the latter when Mugabe was President, and was shown it by a white Zimbabwean. He told me that there had been pressure to remove the grave, but Mugabe had opposed them because after Victoria Falls, it is one of the biggest tourist attractions in a near bankrupt country which desperately needs to rebuild it' tourist industry!

Income still matters in countries trying to come to terms with their colonial pasts!

baron 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I wonder just how many BAME Rhodes Scholarships were awarded in the first 100 years of the scheme? (to pick a nice round number at random)

At the risk of being accused of an ‘all lives matter’ or ‘what about the white men’ moment - women were also excluded from these scholarships until 1977.

And to answer your question, at least 5, the first one in 1907

Post edited at 11:50
 mondite 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

> I have my doubts about removing a statue of a slaver who died almost 300 hundred years ago, who committed atrocities by today's standards but where people can walk past, perhaps read a plaque and learn or if they are offended decide to avoid it. 

Aside from that was tried but was undermined by the special interest group who had it originally erected.

 Stichtplate 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

 I think it’d be better if people just learnt our history, good and bad, rather than get all riled up over statues. In Mongolia they have a 130 foot statue of Genghis Kahn sat on top of a museum dedicated to him, it’s not far from the international airport named after him and his face is plastered all over their currency. This bothers absolutely no one, despite him building a huge empire, raping and pillaging across Asia, enslaving entire nations and being personally responsible for up to 40 million deaths. 
All in all, Genghis made Rhodes look like Ghandi.
Errr....maybe Ghandi wasn’t the best person to compare him with since Ghandi also said some very racist things about black people and was quite complimentary about Nazis. Maybe Mother Teresa then? Maybe not, Christopher Hitchens's book about her outlined some very strange attitudes she held regarding what she saw as the benefits of not relieving the suffering of the residents of her hospices. Look closely at most figures from history and feet of clay soon become apparent. I wonder how many UKC posters would like their own lives to be judged solely on the very worst of their actions.

On the other hand Rhodes is one of many African colonialists who's statues have proved controversial. One of his near contemporaries built a much bigger Empire in Southern Africa through a mixture of conquest and political assassination. His rule is widely regarded as precipitating the Mfecane, a 25 year period of war, upheaval and depopulation in the region and his influence stretched down the centuries with his descendants coming into conflict with the ANC following the Soweto uprisings. 

Unsurprisingly his statue was removed from Durban airport. The reasoning for the removal might be a little more surprising.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/10215600

Post edited at 12:09
 Andy Hardy 18 Jun 2020
In reply to baron:

100 scholarships pa, 100 years = 10000 total, of which 5 were awarded to BAME students? Blimey, that's worse than I thought!

baron 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> 100 scholarships pa, 100 years = 10000 total, of which 5 were awarded to BAME students? Blimey, that's worse than I thought!

I found 5 from one website.

There could be many more but a brief search didn’t throw up either  a more accurate number or a list of scholars by ethnicity.

I did find a presumably white recipient from 1903 who, amongst other things, was notable for his criticism of colonial Africa and I also discovered that the first black recipient in 1907 might have been awarded a scholarship before anyone realised that he was actually black.

 Dan Arkle 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

Superb post - showing how people, their reputations, and the past are always complicated and messy.

 seankenny 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

>  I think it’d be better if people just learnt our history, good and bad, rather than get all riled up over statues.

Perhaps letting them go as emblems of a past time that we don't feel is worth celebrating in our public spaces today would be the ultimate in not getting all riled up over statues? I see plenty of hysteria about them and it's not all from one side.

I'd perhaps go so far as to suggest that there's an element of "us, the cool cerebrals - use these statues to learn about your history" vs "them, hot headed and angry, the mob driven by emotions" which is an old pattern of thought that one suspects Rhodes himself would have recognised.

 Stichtplate 18 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

> Perhaps letting them go as emblems of a past time that we don't feel is worth celebrating in our public spaces today would be the ultimate in not getting all riled up over statues? I see plenty of hysteria about them and it's not all from one side.

Mass demonstrations and multiple episodes of public vandalism isn't "letting them go", it's actively ripping them down. After a couple of hundred years statues such as Coulson's had just become unremarkable street decorations. Until recently nobody knew who he was and nobody cared, better to use his statue as a learning point and a warning from history rather than eliminate it's existence. My village has a set of stocks in the centre, at worst they're regarded as a quaint photo op for tourists, at best a reminder of our collective past barbarism.

Mass movements to remove statues aren't without precedence and they're not without consequence. The last time this happened in the UK Puritan priests stirred roundheads up to smash stained glass windows, icons and statues all over the country. Almost 400 years later all those alcoves are still unfilled, all that medieval artwork is gone forever and our heritage and cultural landscape is much the poorer for it.

> I'd perhaps go so far as to suggest that there's an element of "us, the cool cerebrals - use these statues to learn about your history" vs "them, hot headed and angry, the mob driven by emotions" which is an old pattern of thought that one suspects Rhodes himself would have recognised.

I don't see the division like that at all. I've outlined my own reasoning and I don't see myself as at all cool and cerebral, but when I see some white guy beating a statue with a skateboard it does make me wonder what the hell he thinks he's achieving.

3
 THE.WALRUS 18 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

I think we need to build another museum in which to house all the statues we're ripping down.

It'd probably be a good idea to keep atleast one room empty, so that there will be space to put all of the statues we haven't yet erected that will be judged in a couple of hundred years time, by futuristic beings, as unfit to grace our streets and hyper-spaceways!

Madness!

Post edited at 13:53
3
 seankenny 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Mass demonstrations and multiple episodes of public vandalism isn't "letting them go", it's actively ripping them down. After a couple of hundred years statues such as Coulson's had just become unremarkable street decorations.

Hold on, if they were unremarkable, why have they caused such anger? I was actually suggesting that the opponents of statue bashing could let them go... (go into a museum, ideally).

>Until recently nobody knew who he was and nobody cared, better to use his statue as a learning point and a warning from history rather than eliminate it's existence.

How does one "learn" from a statue, exactly? Learning seems to me to come from books, musuems, radio and TV documentaries, discussions, etc. What's the mechanism here? How exactly does walking past a statue teach me anything - is there some sort of osmosis that goes on that puts knowledge in my head?

And looking at the Coulson statue, haven't attempts to alter the plaque to actually say what he was and what he did come to nothing? The Coulson statue's original plaque said: ""Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city AD 1895"

Surely this was basically whitewashing the guy, and that rather than give us any sort of lesson or warning about history, the statue has been deliberately covering up or distorting that history?

>My village has a set of stocks in the centre, at worst they're regarded as a quaint photo op for tourists, at best a reminder of our collective past barbarism.

But as I said above, I'm struggling to see how the statue is a reminder of barbarism given a lot of effort was put into keeping information on that aspect of Coulson's life off the statue.

> Mass movements to remove statues aren't without precedence and they're not without consequence. The last time this happened in the UK Puritan priests stirred roundheads up to smash stained glass windows, icons and statues all over the country. Almost 400 years later all those alcoves are still unfilled, all that medieval artwork is gone forever and our heritage and cultural landscape is much the poorer for it.

Erm, haven't the council salvaged the statue and are going to put it in a museum? And are we saying this is actually a piece of art as opposed to a piece of public propaganda, like a Lenin statue in Russia?

> I don't see the division like that at all. I've outlined my own reasoning and I don't see myself as at all cool and cerebral, but when I see some white guy beating a statue with a skateboard it does make me wonder what the hell he thinks he's achieving.

Ahhh, I think you miss my point. You've been "outlining your reasoning" whereas those you disagree with are "getting all riled up". I mean, I think the defenders of the Coulton statue are getting pretty riled up too: "desecrate statues - send them to camps!" cries a minister, which looks a little hysterical to me. But still, the division of reasoning us and riled up them has, shall we say, a certain pedigree.

2
 Stichtplate 18 Jun 2020
In reply to seankenny:

> Hold on, if they were unremarkable, why have they caused such anger? I was actually suggesting that the opponents of statue bashing could let them go... (go into a museum, ideally).

Lots of stuff is unremarkable until people decide it's suddenly remarkable. The list of things people and places that have undergone this transformation is as long as human history itself. Have you really not noticed?

> How does one "learn" from a statue, exactly? Learning seems to me to come from books, musuems, radio and TV documentaries, discussions, etc. What's the mechanism here? How exactly does walking past a statue teach me anything - is there some sort of osmosis that goes on that puts knowledge in my head?

> And looking at the Coulson statue, haven't attempts to alter the plaque to actually say what he was and what he did come to nothing? The Coulson statue's original plaque said: ""Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city AD 1895"

How does one learn from a statue? LOL, I take it you're being deliberately dense for effect here? Assuming you're not, here's a truncated list off the top of my head:  Period dress, artistic style in vogue at the time of it's creation, wealth and public standing of Bristol's merchant class, evolution of the city scape; the plaque alone gives a wealth of information about how slavers were regarded by their contemporaries.

> Surely this was basically whitewashing the guy, and that rather than give us any sort of lesson or warning about history, the statue has been deliberately covering up or distorting that history?

No, it is history. You can ignore it if you like, ignore how social convention and morality have evolved but you may as well burn books you find distasteful. You think the world would be a better place if we. all endeavoured to forget that Hitler used to be a popular chap? and not just in Germany either.

> But as I said above, I'm struggling to see how the statue is a reminder of barbarism given a lot of effort was put into keeping information on that aspect of Coulson's life off the statue.

For God's sake, you wrote this yourself: the plaque said "Erected by citizens of Bristol as a memorial of one of the most virtuous and wise sons of their city AD 1895", if that's not a reminder of our past barbarism then I don't know what is.

> Erm, haven't the council salvaged the statue and are going to put it in a museum? And are we saying this is actually a piece of art as opposed to a piece of public propaganda, like a Lenin statue in Russia?

Stick it in a museum then, removed from place, prominence and context it ceases to be a lesson in anything. We have too few museum's, with too limited space to fit all the statues of distasteful capitalists that we have dotted around the country. Leave them where they are, museums should be places for the rare and the extraordinary, not the commonplace and mundane.

> Ahhh, I think you miss my point. You've been "outlining your reasoning" whereas those you disagree with are "getting all riled up". I mean, I think the defenders of the Coulton statue are getting pretty riled up too: "desecrate statues - send them to camps!" cries a minister, which looks a little hysterical to me. But still, the division of reasoning us and riled up them has, shall we say, a certain pedigree.

Now you're returning to type and veering off into mischaracterisation and false accusations of hysteria.

Post edited at 14:41
4
 wercat 18 Jun 2020
In reply to cb294:

there might have been a hint of irony but I have strongly felt for a long tiome now that Britain still has a lot of feudal mentality - we were subjects too long and didn't have enough of a revolution here when everyone else saw the light.

I think that attitude carried over into the hordes of cannon fodder shovelled into the trenches of WW1 by the ruling classes.

3
 Stichtplate 18 Jun 2020
In reply to wercat:

> there might have been a hint of irony but I have strongly felt for a long tiome now that Britain still has a lot of feudal mentality - we were subjects too long and didn't have enough of a revolution here when everyone else saw the light.

> I think that attitude carried over into the hordes of cannon fodder shovelled into the trenches of WW1 by the ruling classes.

The French certainly had a full on revolution. They also had more than double our casualty rate.

 wercat 18 Jun 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

were the men on average shorter than the officer class by several inches as our soldiers ?

 Stichtplate 18 Jun 2020
In reply to wercat:

> were the men on average shorter than the officer class by several inches as our soldiers ?

Dunno, wasn't there. According to Orwell (6ft 2) in The Road To Wigan Pier, working class menu of choice was predominantly white bread, white sugar, spuds and cheap booze. I'm not sure if the Ruperts were insisting on this menu.

 wercat 19 Jun 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

my grandad took jam sandwiches to work

 Jamie Wakeham 19 Jun 2020
In reply to thread:

Clarification of the £100m - it is indeed forecast reduced donations - and a recent alumnus offering to make up the shortfall: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jun/18/rhodes-statue-tech-boss-pledg...

 neilh 19 Jun 2020
In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Put a staute of Stormzy next to it...........shows historical context ...

 Rog Wilko 19 Jun 2020
In reply to Stichtplate:

I think many many people in Bristol knew a lot about Colston before this all blew up.

As for comments by others about the awarding of  Rhodes scholarships I was also going to suggest that it would be good (though probably legally impossible) if these were reserved for those of black African heritage as reparation for the evil that Rhodes was responsible for.

2
 neilh 19 Jun 2020
In reply to Rog Wilko:

How then does that stack up will say Bill Clinton who is probably the most famous Rhodes scholar and was responsible for getting out the blck vote to win his presidency. He was incredibly pro black voters and had an ability to reach them politically.

The scheme has adjusted and changed with the times( just not the statute)


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