Campervan technical questions

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 jon 30 Dec 2019

We have a Webasto diesel heater, now two years old. The dealer said that ideally it should be serviced every couple of years. We were staggered by the bill - 415€! This included a new glow plug at 105€ (he said their policy is to always change the glow plug) and various gaskets, plus 6 hours(!) labour and 20% vat. Has anyone else with a Webasto or Eberspacher had theirs serviced? Is it really necessary? Do you change the glow plug?

Secondly he commented that the auxilliary battery wasn't getting an efficient charge from the main battery/alternator as the cables between the two were too small. He said that both positive and negative should be min 10mm². They will be difficult to replace as I think the guy who did the conversion didn't run them through conduits (I haven't yet checked so I'm not sure about this). Could the existing too small cables overheat? Are they a potential fire hazard or do they just stop the battery from getting a proper charge? I'm surprised that when the conversion was inspected to change its designation to motor caravan, this wasn't picked up if it was an issue (this is in France so maybe different to UK). 

Thanks.

 Andy Hardy 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

My last van had an Erbespacher, but I don't recall being told it would ever need a service - I'm guessing the heater would just stop heating if the glow plugs pack in.

With regard to cables, the thicker the better for reducing voltage drop (which will assist with charging). The heating effect is a secondary (though important!) consideration - heating losses = I^2.R  Fatter cables have less R, although given you've run the van for a year and it hasn't caught fire yet I think it's safe enough.

Cables in vehicles are not often in conduit - they are in looms, which would make replacement more time consuming

If you want to run through the sums, a 10mm cable will have a volt drop of about 4.4mV per amp per metre. In an industrial application you'd want to have a max volt drop of 4% at the device (say 0.48V @ 12VDC). 6mm cable has a volt drop of about 7.3mV / A / m.

HTH

Andy

 gethin_allen 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

Can't comment about the heater but I can regarding the cable.

Firstly, check the current rating of the cable and make sure you have a suitably rated fuse that will blow before the cable gets hot and melts causing a fire. 

Then check the charger specifications and that will tell you if the cable is suitable.

 mik82 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

Personally I'd just use the heater without a service, as you can get 3 new Chinese heaters for the price of that.

1
OP jon 30 Dec 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy, Gethin and Mik:

Thanks for the replies. I'll check the cables tomorrow. I suspect they are 6mm. The Webasto won't fire up unless the motor is running, once started though, it's fine. However, last year it didn't need the motor running. This suggests to me (a complete numpty) that the battery isn't getting a proper charge. As you point out, there's a considerable difference between 6mm and 10mm.

Gethin, you say check the charger specs. How do I do this?

 John2 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

I guess you know what the function of the glow plug is - it's to warm the diesel engine up before you start it. It's easy to tell when a glow plug is on the way out - when you used to have to keep it powered for (say)  10 seconds before the engine would start you now have to keep it powered for 20 seconds. That's when you need to replace the glow plug. It is probably an east DIY job (with the right tool).

I have driven a number of diesel cars, but never had a diesel heater. However, I am amazed if the gaskets need changing after 2 years. At least get another quote for the service.

 artif 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

Your comment about the engine needs to be running leads me to suspect your battery is on its way out, hence not getting fully charged, get it checked out.

6mm cable won't be helping. 

Also how far do you discharge the battery before recharging.

If its a lead acid battery you really don't want to use more than 40%of its rated capacity, any more and its lifetime will be drastically reduced.

As for eberspachers/webastos they are great when they work, but it's cheaper to throw them out than repair them.

Planar are a much cheaper version with good reviews if you get any serious problems

1
 artif 30 Dec 2019
In reply to John2:

Glow plugs on webastos actually ignite the fuel unlike an engine

 John2 30 Dec 2019
In reply to artif:

I still think my comment about 10 seconds vs 20 seconds applies.

 gethin_allen 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

If you know where the charger is and can find a model number you should be able to google it and probably find the current or wattage it charges at (or even maybe the wiring diagrams and installation info).

Just to add, I'm quite surprised by the size of the cables supplied with some kits (16mm2 in some cases). This seems crazy when a reasonable sized plug in charger charges batteries ar 8 amps ish. And a 6mm2 cable is rated to about 40 amps.

Post edited at 20:40
OP jon 30 Dec 2019
In reply to John2:

> At least get another quote for the service.

Too late. We didn't find out till we picked it up and then had no choice. I was expecting about 100€, if that...

OP jon 30 Dec 2019
In reply to gethin_allen:

By charger you mean alternator?

 John2 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

I think you have had a bad experience. I have had various jobs done to cars in France, and usually the bill has been very reasonable.

 gethin_allen 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

There should be a box of tricks between the alternator or battery and the leisure battery depending on the vehicle and age etc.

 jimtitt 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

I used to service Webasto and Eberspacher on boats and €450 would have been good 20 years ago!  Most of ours suffered from lack of use but the service kit is around €250-300 anyway and includes a glow plug, normally you change the burner as well if it's a bit old. The newer computer controlled ones are worse if you can't read out the codes and horrific if they are integrated into the car system, cost you €1500 to replace a €100 pump down your local BMW dealer!

 artif 30 Dec 2019
In reply to John2:

Sort of, engine glow plugs are pre heaters to get the cylinders warm enough for the diesel to ignite when the engine is cold, they operate for around 10seconds at start up and are then shut off .

Webasto glow plugs run continuously to ignite the incoming fuel sprayed over it.

There's also a whole box of electrickery to make them run, with fuel pressure, temperature sensors etc. Glow plugs alone are around £70.

My experience of them comes boats, they were usually scrapped after a few years as the rotted out in the salt air. 

Post edited at 22:13
 mik82 30 Dec 2019
In reply to jon:

If you've got access to a multimeter then you can check the voltages across the vehicle and leisure batteries, as well as seeing if there's issues with the charging circuit. 

The diesel heater not firing up off the leisure battery, having previously done so, suggests the battery voltage is insufficient - either because it needs replacing or because it's not getting charged. 

In reply to jon:

Hi Jon. The Eberspatcher in my van is 10 years old and hasn’t been serviced. My take is to do something about it if it ever packs in.

The only reason I’ve encountered for having to have the engine running in order to start the heater is when the leisure battery needs replacing. It’s neither taking nor holding sufficient charge. Then when you try to start the heater, voltage across the battery drops below the critical level to fire the glow plug and the starter circuit. A new battery should sort it. 

OP jon 01 Jan 2020
In reply to paul_in_cumbria:

Yes, I think that's maybe the last service it's getting...

Right, I've compared the insitu cables with the bit of 10mm² that I've got, and theyre puny. The negative is even punier than the positive, so I plan to replace them. In the meantime I'm charging up the leisure battery - it was quite low. A neighbour came up with a further solution - to attach a battery charger permanently to the leisure battery and just plug it in whenever possible in campsites. Would this be a reasonable idea? I suppose it wouldn't be much different to having a solar charging system topping it up all the time... which would be another solution, I suppose. Any opinions, anyone? 

In reply to jon:

Hi John, yes I’ve also got a charger which charges the battery when the van is hooked up to mains. Got a fused switch which turns it on. Works very well. A good capacity leisure battery costs less than £100 and also well worth it. Good luck!

 Dark-Cloud 02 Jan 2020
In reply to gethin_allen:

It's called a split charge relay, not really a box of tricks, just a relay that closes when he voltage from the alternator is above a preset level to then charge the leisure battery

 Andy Hardy 02 Jan 2020
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

Split charge relays aren't suitable for those annoying engines that start and stop themselves at traffic lights etc, you do need a box of tricks if your van is one of them.

 Dark-Cloud 02 Jan 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Start/Stop is fine with split charge relay, the regen ones are not, would need a battery to battery charger then, agreed that is a box of tricks.

1
OP jon 02 Jan 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Hmmm, my van has stop/start which really annoys me, so I switch it off. Why does it affect the battery charging?

I think maybe the 'box of tricks' was probably for my benefit

 gethin_allen 02 Jan 2020
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

> It's called a split charge relay, not really a box of tricks, just a relay that closes when he voltage from the alternator is above a preset level to then charge the leisure battery


Split charge relays are not suitable for all vehicles, especially newer EURO 5-6 engines. There are a few different systems available and considering the OP doesn't sound massively clued up on the subject I thought "box of tricks" was a suitable term.

Edit: just read the following three posts that make my point effectively

Post edited at 13:42
 Dark-Cloud 02 Jan 2020
In reply to jon:

It doesn't, it's only if its got regen charging too that the traditional split charger isn't ideal:

https://www.basecampers.com/start-stop-and-regenerative-braking/

Post edited at 13:46
1
 henwardian 02 Jan 2020
In reply to jon:

To answer a few of the questions:

1) There is no inspection to change registration to a motor caravan in the UK, you just send the DVLA a few photos and they change the designation without ever seeing the van in reality, let alone inspecting any of the work. I don't know how this process works in France though.

2) Wires that are too thin should be replaced. The thinner they are, the more likely it is that they will catch fire but you basically shouldn't be asking this question because even a small risk of fire means you should replace them with beefier ones. Every watt of power that is lost through "inefficient charging" is a watt of heat generated in the cables. Personally I always work out what seems safe for wire diameter and then double it. Wire is cheap, fires are not.

3) Both positive and negative wires should be the same diameter.

4) I don't think I've heard anyone I know complaining about the servicing of a diesel heater in a camper. I have a Propex gas one though, so I can't comment from personal experience on diesel heaters. The quote they have given you is about, what, 50% of the cost of a new heater? What is the likely outcome of not servicing? The inside gets blocked with soot? It loses efficiency or needs a clean out? Why do the gaskets all need replaced? Even if the heater is inside the van (which I'm guessing it isn't), you can install a CO alarm (about £5 from B&Q) to guard against the risk of that and if it starts to smell, you will know there is a leak and something needs to be done....

I guess what I'm saying is, if it were me, in the absence of a very compelling argument I'm not aware of, I'd never bother servicing it and just replace it when it breaks.

For comparison, an entire Propex HS2000 gas heater kit costs only slightly more than your servicing cost. I'm not aware of any servicing requirements for them and as they burn tiny gas molecules, rather than giant fat diesel molecules, the buildup of particulates is going to be much reduced and it won't stink up the area outside the van with the smell of partly burnt fuel if it starts being less efficient (and it's probably quieter).

 henwardian 02 Jan 2020
In reply to jon:

> Hmmm, my van has stop/start which really annoys me, so I switch it off.

Leaving the battery charging aside for a moment, the start/stop feature is there to increase fuel efficiency and reduce pollution. Unless there is a more compelling reason than "I find it annoying", you should not turn it off.

 mik82 02 Jan 2020
In reply to Dark-Cloud: 

I think a battery to battery charger is almost always a better, if more expensive option, than a voltage sensitive relay.

As has been mentioned, 'smart' alternators as fitted in more modern vehicles (Euro 5/6) won't provide a reliable voltage output to charge leisure batteries effectively (either too low, or too high and causing damage by charging too rapidly)

 spragglerocks 03 Jan 2020
In reply to henwardian:

> Leaving the battery charging aside for a moment, the start/stop feature is there to increase fuel efficiency and reduce pollution. Unless there is a more compelling reason than "I find it annoying", you should not turn it off.

I'll attempt to give you a more compelling reason:

It's also not good for your engine..BMW first put the technology in their Minis and had lots of engine failures. The engine starts to cool when it switches off and means the engine isn't operating in its optimum state (the lubricants and additives are optimised to reduce engine wear and friction, the latter accounts for most of the energy loss in your engine).

I turn it off religiously due to working with people who research how to improve energy efficiency of engines through reduction of friction. There is always a trade off with wear.

They all tell me the stop start tech is bad for.your engine. Fine for company car drivers who change their vehicle every 3 years but if yours is a longer term investment then it could cause issues. And car manufacturers are going to be fine with it as.its "environmentally friendly" and you are more likely to need to buy a replacement.

 spragglerocks 03 Jan 2020
In reply to jon:

Our last van had a webasto. Never serviced in 6 years and only time it stopped working was when we ran the leisure battery down due to trying to dry out wet ski kit. As others have said, at that price you can skip the service and just replace if it ever breaks.

As for the wiring, no idea!

OP jon 03 Jan 2020
In reply to jon:

Latest update: the firm that did the conversion phoned this morning very apologetically and have agreed to change the relay for a battery to battery system, free of charge, on Monday! Clearly at the time they didn't realise the consequences. So thanks to everyone for their input without which I wouldn't have had any background knowledge at all.

 Ridge 03 Jan 2020
In reply to spragglerocks:

I ran a 'stop start' Kia ceed for 7 years and 150k miles with absolutely no issues (still had the original battery when I sold it).

Don' t know how much fuel/emissions it saves in reality, but no apparent engine problems 

 henwardian 06 Jan 2020
In reply to spragglerocks:

> It's also not good for your engine..BMW first put the technology in their Minis and had lots of engine failures. The engine starts to cool when it switches off and means the engine isn't operating in its optimum state (the lubricants and additives are optimised to reduce engine wear and friction, the latter accounts for most of the energy loss in your engine).

Hmm, that's very interesting to hear. Where do the people you work with publish their research? I would like to read about it. Intuitively I would suggest that many new technologies have teething problems but that the people implementing them tend to refine them to minimise and manage these problems as they are discovered (and stop/start has been around for... 10 years? or maybe more now). Also, I've never had a vehicle basically reach "scrap" status through anything other than the inevitable march of rust which, certainly in the uk, seems to be the ultimate ender of vehicles, rather than engine failure.

 artif 06 Jan 2020
In reply to henwardian:

>  Also, I've never had a vehicle basically reach "scrap" status through anything other than the inevitable march of rust which, certainly in the uk, seems to be the ultimate ender of vehicles, rather than engine failure.

Scrap yards are full of basically sound vehicles with failed  electronic / sealed for life components like gearboxes etc.

Last two Mercs we had were scrapped due to biodegradable wiring looms (a well known fault with them), I replaced as much as practical but in the end it they became too unreliable.

As for my land rover, the only thing not replaced rebuilt  so far is the rear axle (not made by land rover) and its a similar story with colleagues land rovers both new (discos rangies etc) and old with blown engines/gearboxes etc but LR are a "special case"

Once out of warranty a lot of modern cars become uneconomical to repair. Another colleague had to wait 5 months for a transit gearbox replacement, under warranty and they supplied a back up vehicle. If it happened out of warranty it would have been scrapped

Overall though, modern stuff is more reliable during its planned lifespan.

 Toerag 06 Jan 2020
In reply to jon:

> Right, I've compared the insitu cables with the bit of 10mm² that I've got, and theyre puny. The negative is even punier than the positive, so I plan to replace them.

If whoever fitted them was incompetent enough to fit ones so thin and unequal you'd be advised to ensure any other work they did was satisfactory - grommets where they go through holes, sufficient bend radii, decent connectors, proper fusing and electrical insulation.

 henwardian 08 Jan 2020
In reply to artif:

Fair point. Maybe I've just always been lucky. Or maybe people you know have been unlucky, it's hard to say with just anecdotes and no statistics, but assuming you have an average sized pool of colleagues, that is a lot of dud vehicles. If you've had the landrover long enough to have replaced almost every part, can I assume that the mercs were bought about 20 and 30 years ago?

I've heard about Landrover problems before and it's hard to envisage a world where I'd ever buy one for all sorts of reasons, though I didn't know they were so awful that they get their own special catagory of terribleness. Maybe it's something about off-road vehicles - out of a pretty long history of vehicles my parents have had, I think the only one that had difficult/expensive repairs was the Jeep Cherokee.

Overall, it's very frustrating that there doesn't seem to be a good pool of information on longevity of different makes and models of vehicle out there. Every car/van review I read tells me a lot of interesting facts but only maybe 5% at most relate to whether I might want to buy that vehicle and the most important thing - reliability and longevity is entirely missing because you can't physically do a 10 year test in the few weeks following the release of a new vehicle that you might have for testing before writing your review.

 artif 08 Jan 2020
In reply to henwardian:

> Fair point. Maybe I've just always been lucky. Or maybe people you know have been unlucky, it's hard to say with just anecdotes and no statistics, but assuming you have an average sized pool of colleagues, that is a lot of dud vehicles.

Apologies for the long reply but I'm sat here at home with a cold and nothing better to do .

I admit to a slightly one sided view of LR products my current 110 is my second LR vehicle. I'm not a normal punter when it comes to vehicles though and tend to buy stuff that needs a little TLC or throw away cars (bangernomics)

Just remembered another colleague, a devout British vehicle owner (hes from Coventry) thought he'd treat himself to a new at the time Disco 3, spent 8 of the 12 months of ownership at the dealers, he swapped it in for Jag. 

If you've had the landrover long enough to have replaced almost every part, can I assume that the mercs were bought about 20 and 30 years ago? 

I bought the 110 (ex military) it was in excellent condition chassis clean and rust free low mileage (95K) for a 1990 vehicle and well maintained. I've had it for around 5 years and done 48k miles in it, any other vehicle would have been scrapped but messing with vehicles and stuff is a hobby so I keep it. Wooden boats are another, but cars fill in the moments of boredom.

The Mercs were older versions mid 90's but we manged to get 100k  out of the first (200K miles when it was scrapped) and about 50k out of the second (150K when it was scrapped) the first we bought for £500 the second cost £1k. To be fair, other than replacing the wiring looms I never touched either of them, not even a service, occasional top up of oil and brake pads but that was it. Last one was 3 years ago. SWMBOS current vehicle is a V***o estate, which she picked from a neighbour for £500, I despise the bloody thing and refuse to work on it but the damn thing wont breakdown.

> I've heard about Landrover problems before and it's hard to envisage a world where I'd ever buy one for all sorts of reasons, though I didn't know they were so awful that they get their own special catagory of terribleness. Maybe it's something about off-road vehicles - out of a pretty long history of vehicles my parents have had, I think the only one that had difficult/expensive repairs was the Jeep Cherokee.

I bought a '79 Jeep last year to replace the 110, I needed something less comfortable, less reliable with difficult to find parts for a daily driver. Still have the 110 though.  Reliability, comfort, safety ratings, cup holders and connectivity are not what I look for in a car. I class a roof and wind down windows as extravagant luxuries. I've been known to chop the roof off cars for the summer, 10 minutes with a grinder and 20 minutes to weld the doors up. 

> Overall, it's very frustrating that there doesn't seem to be a good pool of information on longevity of different makes and models of vehicle out there. Every car/van review I read tells me a lot of interesting facts but only maybe 5% at most relate to whether I might want to buy that vehicle and the most important thing - reliability and longevity is entirely missing because you can't physically do a 10 year test in the few weeks following the release of a new vehicle that you might have for testing before writing your review.

JD power is the place to look. Peugeot currently top the charts for reliability (raised eyebrows) BMW are bottom (hahahaaha). You can look at the historical data as well for the year of car your looking at.

Honest John can be useful too. 

One of the best real world opinions I've found is recovery vehicle drivers, you'll get the run down on what cars to avoid and what to buy from those that see the broken ones. Last one I spoke to recommended a Mondeo Diesel estate as the car to get. I mentioned a couple of cars and he gave me some great pointers on what to look for if buying them.

Off for my next dose of Lemsip Tumeric and pain killers, cheers for now


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