UKH

As someone who did see some benefits of EU membership, I found this quote quite striking:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/28/betrayed-uk-fishing-indust...

“I don’t know how the hell we’re going to get through 2021,” he said. “We used to swap quota we didn’t want with quota the French or Germans didn’t want and that enabled us to put together an annual fishing plan.

“This year we’re going to be woefully short of the amount of saithe, hake and cod we can catch. I’m angry, disappointed and betrayed.”

How awful of the EU not to allow quota swapping with non-members!

The schadenfreude is so palpable I can taste it.

However, this isn't said with glee, we're all shafted together but there is something about turkeys voting for Xmas and watching them look shocked.

Frankly I'm finding these people hilarious. I was reading an article earlier where a fisherman was complaining about the new export paperwork arising from Brexit. I'm sure some are reasonable but plenty seem to have been expecting everything at no cost and are just now realising they may have bought a turd. 

Any who want to please dislike away; I'm enjoying myself watching this unfold. I'm bitter and couldn't give a.f. 

Meanwhile, look at this idiot bleating on that he wasn't better insulated from the consequences of his own idiocy:

https://www.theneweuropean.co.uk/brexit-news/sky-news-brexit-regret-6873634...

People with glass eel warehouses, shouldn't throw stones.

I'll have to confess that I look at something like this and my mouth hangs open in disbelief and no sound comes out. Because I am at a loss seeing such a level of inanity among even apparently quite intelligent people. Who would ever have guessed that we'd be afflicted by two such dangerous viruses at the very same time? The one completely corporeal, the other completely psychological.

Well, duh...

I'm not. I'm just very sad.

Gordon, I'm totally with you... I've literally reacted exactly that way during 'debates' in my local boozer.

“Never argue with an idiot. They will drag you down to their level and beat you with experience.”

Mark Twain

Now now, we can't be having any of those fancy imported emotions

I remember seeing numerous pro Brexit banners and flags attached to fishing vessels in several ports prior to the vote. 

I understand why fishermen could feel aggrieved by the EU but for them to think they wouldn't get shafted or for them to be put ahead of the rest of the economy is bonkers. 

This won't be the first group of Brexit supporters to find their cake has been under baked and the cherry on top is actually a bitter pill.

+1. There are going to be a *lot* of angry people, emotionally invested in brexit who will be easy meat for the "traitors ruined my brexit" lines. Nigel Garage will be licking his lips. 🙁

To add insult to injury 'remainer' Kier Starmer is so in thrall of appeasing the formerly labour brexit voters and regaining the red wall that he's supporting the deal. It's like Corbyn's back in charge.
This time I'll vote for independence for Scotland (if we get the chance), so we can rejoin.

Somewhat tangential to shafted fisher folk but is that even possible given Spanish objections?

Unfortunately for shadenfreude I think the majority of brexit voters, who don't export glass eels, fish, farm, tour a band, have children that might possibly want to study, live or work in the EU etc will only experience a slight increase in food prices and will happily wave their blue passports as they disembark their holiday flights, chanting 'worth it for sovereignty'. 

 

And just to complete what wasn't said....."I’m angry, disappointed and betrayed......with, in and by myself"

I got banned from the Fishing News group on FB for constantly telling them they were going to get shafted. Might try to re-join to tell them I told them so

No idea! Still more likely than the Uk rejoining of its own volition.

And we can set our own quota levels now!

If Brexit has any educational value its what you vote or hope for, and what you get are two different things (as ever to some degree in politics).

Particularly when even the broad framework was unknown, let alone the details being defined.

Scottish Independence will be the same, anyone voting for it and assuming we will be back in the EU, the EU won't have changed and the benefits we get will be the same as before needs to think about that..............carefully.

As the old saying goes 'if its sounds too good to be true......'

I feel a lot of sympathy for the fishing industry as a whole. They were duped, like so many others. We should never have been asked to vote on EU membership in the way that we were by Cameron, holding the vote at all legitimised the idea that leaving wouldn't cause economic devastation and losses of entire industries.

What blows my mind is that it's only now that the fishing industry has worked it out. Did they really think that the government was going to put the entire economy on the line for them? Could they not smell the bullshit for any of the last four and a half years?

This is what happens when you trust the Tories with your livelihoods. I take no pleasure at any of this. I only hope fisherman direct their anger where it is due.

I have no problem having sympathy for individual fisherfolk, but I have no sympathy for the industry as a whole.  Lets remember they have in recent years denied quotas or stock protection was necessary, circumvented quotas by black fish landings, evaded tax, some sold their quotas to be slipper fishermen, we the tax payer have to pay fishery protection vessels not only to prevent incursions, but mainly to check they are following the rules and aren't deploying the wrong nets; what does that tell you?

Ah you say its only a few bad apples; I think not remember this -

 https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/304278/63m-of-fish-in-secret-pipes-to-bea...

The inshore industry is no better, go to any West Coast beach and it has piles of fishing pollution; marine lubricant cans, fish boxes, nets,  buoys creel pots and and a litany of other pieces of fishing plastic.

The industry needs to clean up its act, and then rebuild.

I for one am very pleased that at the moment it looks like Brexit hasn't given them free reign.

Spot on. Fishermen like to claim they're 'custodians of the seas', but the reality is that when times are hard they would rather fish unsustainably than give up.  There's always someone else to blame other than themselves - it's the French, it's the supertrawlers, it's the Dutch, it's the weather. Governments don't help by setting quotas above the safe levels determined by science either.

Yep.  After the farmers' complaints about how they were being shafted by brexit I didn't think there could be a smaller violin anywhere in the universe, but it turns out there is.

The article also mentions how the Irish fishing industry has been shafted, along with many others no doubt at least in the short to medium term.  In shooting ourselves in the foot we're doing a great deal of damage to their economy too.  There I do have a lot of sympathy, as if they hadn't already suffered enough from the Brits behaving like dicks over the last 800 years or so. 
(No, T-i-E, not just the English, though we should certainly carry the can for the lion's share of it.)

Well customs union, freedom of movement, the right to live and work in the EU are unlikely to change as they are fundamental.

Oh yes. I've lost count of the number of times I've been called a loser or a remoaner and been told to suck it up or get on with it.
After the last 4 years of stress for me and my family I'm finiding this all rather wonderful. I'm a few weeks away form being fully brexit-proofed so bring it on!

E

Just a few minutes ago Boris was telling Laura K that there was a great deal for fishing and that there were no barriers to trade. 

It seems now you just keep repeating lies and hope that the majority of voters don’t bother checking the truth or don’t care.

Most industries would love by a change of regulatory regime to go from a c. 50% take, to c. 75% take in five years.

The problem some fisherman have is they are not able to take advantage of it, as they can't trade or sell, the quota's or specific stocks. Borris didn't serve it up on a plate for them, so its now race for some to adapt to differing species to survive and others face competition to gain the extra resource.

It is ironic they voted against the artificial EU market of trading quota's and stocks......and now they are complaining about no longer being able to trade quota's,  and only having the real market of catching and selling, and some are caught with a hand of difficult cards to play.

Its a bit like farming where by for a great many farmers the game is subsidy harvesting, and the crop to real market is secondary by-product.

This is not say market regulation is intrinsically bad, it has its place to curb  environmental excess's and provide a degree of food security ect.

But if you vote to throw all the cards in the air, don't be surprised when some that land face-up at your feet are duff!

What's the complaint from the Irish? The only people who could have shafted them are the EU negotiators, presumably?

I think one of Bunter's great strengths is that he simply doesn't know when he is telling lies - it's just not a thing for him.

I've worked with salespeople like that in the past- they said whatever was needed to get a deal, then the moment they said it in their heads it became 'true'.  It was a great asset for them, a bl**dy great PITA for the rest of us who would have explain to the punter that we wouldn't be able to deliver, there must have been a 'misunderstanding'.

I've just watched that, I don't get where this idea that LK is a govt spokesperson comes from - I thought she was giving him a pretty hard time and was visibly angered by his dissembling. There didn't seem to be much love lost between the two.

I would have suggested Labour abstain. But voting against the deal won't stop Brexit. This deal really is the best we can expect from the EU.

Anyway, shouldn't you be blaming Corbyn for everything.. ?

Well he did sack her anonymous source in downing street.

Bit late for that. Brexit happened almost exactly a year ago...

Exactly. But digby seems to think that Starmer can somehow stop Brexit. Unless he thinks Starmer is only voting for the deal because he thinks the Brexit-supporting labour voters will support the deal. I'm a staunch remainer, but I support the deal on the basis of it being the least worst outcome we can expect.

It was always going to be this way, I thought it might be a good idea (Brexit ) at first, mainly because of the fishing, but it's pitiful, compared to the rest of our industries. We were sold a pup, mainly to do with offshore tax arrangements which the EU are doing something about.

Rich people have made this happen to ensure they make themselves richer, us working stiffs are paying for it. Those who voted for it, have been duped and suckered into something that will not benefit them.

But Steve I thought that Guernsey fishermen still get to land all of their best seafood into France instead of their home port. Greed is a good motivator!

Jeremy Corbyn

I cannot vote for Boris Johnson’s Brexit deal today, which this Government will use to drive down rights and protections, and step up the sell-off of our vital public services.

The Prime Minister appeared in parliament today to present a fait accompli to MPs with no opportunity to amend or scrutinise a major piece of legislation. Not for the first time has he treated democratic accountability with contempt and covered up the inadequacy of his agreement with the EU with bluster and obfuscation.

Whilst the public debate has been dominated by issues of fishing – and in the end there is a five-year extension on that matter - other matters however have received no scrutiny or debate, despite being crucial to the society we wish to be and the country we must build over the coming years.

Of particular importance from a progressive perspective, is that far from protecting workers rights, and environmental standards, they apparently are dependent on whether or not they have any effect on “trade or investment”. Indeed, Johnson confirmed this morning there would be no keeping up with any future alignment with the EU. We know what the Conservative agenda on these rights mean – they have never missed an opportunity to further exploit workers and our environment, and they have sought to create an opportunity for themselves in what they have negotiated.

Additionally, there is no positive news for the 1.6m European nationals who live in Britain and have children or relationships as part of our local communities. What of their future? The government has failed them.

There is no agreement on qualifications being transportable between the EU and the UK in the future. How will this impact on our education system, our research links and our public services? There is no answer.

And this is a ‘thin deal’ which leaves open the potential of damaging tariff wars in the future over agricultural and manufactured goods.

There has also been a claim that Johnson wanted to be free from the EU State aid rules, briefing that they were restrictive of Government intervention to support economic development. My belief has always been that these are restrictive and would hamper a progressive Labour government trying to regenerate the most left behind parts of Britain - but this deal does not break free of state aid or public procurement restrictions, or of commitments to competition and privatisation of public services. They are baked into the deal.

Just over a year ago, in the Sheffield TV debate during the General Election, Boris Johnson challenged my views on public spending, and on handling future relations with Europe by gaily telling the world that we couldn’t afford Labour’s spending plans and that he would “get Brexit done”.

I gently pointed out to him that not only could we as a country afford the spending plans that we put forward, but as a country we could not afford to not apply them.

One year on, the Coronavirus crisis has shown that when the will is there, the Government can spend more, and also why the public investment we argued for was - and is - so desperately needed.

Predictably, rather than focussing on getting the best possible Brexit done in terms of our economy and rights – and in a way which would allow scrutiny and democratic input – the shambolic Johnson Government wasted time with an attempted trade agreement with Trump and the United States, which would have put standards and jobs at risk in Britain, and damaged trade with the EU.

The reality now facing us is that we have a Tory government that has shown throughout the crisis its real agenda of privatisation of our public services and redistribution of power and wealth to the already super rich. This Government worships a failed neo-liberal system which has created Covid billionaires, and the Tories consistent failure to put people and health first has led to thousands of needless deaths, and an NHS which is on the brink of being overwhelmed after being so so undervalued and underfunded by the Tories over the last decade.

This deal should not be supported because it does not give the protections claimed, and it does not secure trade or conditions for our future outside the European Union. It paves the way in the future for very disadvantaged trade deals with other countries, particularly the United States. It gives a Right-Wing Tory government a chance to cut privatised deals, and re-balance our economy in favour of the Tories and their allies.

There is a better way. We need instead to break with the failed race-to-the-bottom policies of the past and build a Britain that puts people before private profit.

I don't see how Starmer could have done anything other than vote for the deal - everyone knows it's sh*t, but it is the only deal in town. Starmer would have looked like he was 'playing politics' to not have supported it, albeit with reservations. I think everyone will know exactly who carries the can when it starts going tits up on Jan 1st.  

To put it into context, the entire UK fishing industry has a turnover of, roughly, Harrods.

Would you thing it was worth leaving the EU for the sake of one department store?

Bit f*cking late Jeremy. Maybe you should have been a tad more passionate 4 years ago.

You don't work at the same place as me do you ???

What would Corbyn have done instead. Does  (or rather did) he have an alternative that was actually credible - especially given the timescale ?????

What planet is the dickhead on ??

This is Corbyn's problem. He's a permanent backbencher. Full of passion about what should be done, (except when he was Labour leader, then it was “Brexit? Meh.”), but absolutely no clue about how to achieve it. He's like the bloke in the football crowd shouting loudly about how useless the manager is, but nothing constructive to add.

We know it's a shit deal, but it could be a lot worse, and how is it magically going to turn into a brilliant deal if Parliament votes against it when the EU have already approved it?

Apart from those who voted for no more Polish plumbers, I guess.

Or Polish, German, French etc nurses and doctors.  The shortages in the NHS must surely have not been improved by the number of EU nationals who decided that Pritti's Britain was not a place to stay

It seems a bit compulsive - for some reason I was thinking of this today and I wonder if his craving for approval is so great (like Trump) that he can't help but say anything that will meet with approval NOW, putting off childishly any thought of the debit side when it isn't delivered (back to Situation.normal)

Yup. Easy to be clever now. Shame he didn't fight harder for the EU during the referendum campaign. As Ridge puts it, he was very “Brexit? Meh.”

I'm sorry they feel like. That said I have difficulty having too much sympathy for people who believed (whether they were told so or not) that they could have their cake, eat it, make someone else pay for another one and there would be no downside in any way. 

Brexit proofed? I'm envious of you chap. My Brexit preparations have consisted of fattening the cat up and casing which of my neighbours have chest freezers. As to the enjoyment factor all I can say is that the sweetest words in the world; better then "it's free", better even than "I love you" are: "I told you so" 

Project fear my a*se.

No, which is why I changed my mind. It didn't take much information, but I knew next to nothing about our fishing industry at the time, and thought it might be nice to get control of it again. I no know a lot more.

And so, I'm forced to defend Corbyn yet again, I always knew what his and Labour's stance was, which if anyone cared to read a little about it was pretty obvious. If instead of listening to dog whistle media, people actually thought to read a bit they would have know too.

Labour's position was to see what deal we could get and then put that deal to the people in a second referendum. It was simple, they wouldn't support a deal which reduced workers rights or our standard of living.

I really, really don't understand, why people refuse to acknowledge this. Corbyn isn't a favourite of mine, but if you ignored what the media was telling us he was saying and actually listened to what he was saying, it wasn't hard to see what he was saying and why.

Doesn't really matter does it?  I sympathise with them because Brexit is making their lives harder, unlike the UK fishing industry through no fault of their own.

I listened to what Corbyn himself said, on the rare occasion he deigned to make TV appearances. I don't subscribe to 'dog whistle' media.

He didn't attend the People's Vote march I attended, so he didn't seem that keen on the people having a second vote. His absence was firmly noted by the marchers. He chose to attend some local issue thing, attended by a few hundred followers; typical of his sticking to his echo chamber, rather than addressing a wider audience.

But that was exactly his point, it wasn't about what HE thought, it was about what people thought, is wasn't about STOPPING Brexit, it was about finding out what people had voted for, what we could get out of it, and voting on THAT, not simply say f*ck it we've voted out, or f*ck it I think we should stay in. It was about voting on what the result of the negotiations were.

It was pretty clear, the press and media, wanted him painted as sitting on the fence, but it was obvious what his / there position was. It didn't suit a lot of people, because both sides wanted him on their side, which would have meant pissing off huge swathes of Labour voters too. But I think he simply didn't want to influence anyone, it wasn't about him or what he thought, it was about people and how it would affect them.

That's why he wasnt a leader. He didn't identify what he thought was the right thing to do, and encourage people to follow that. He followed a naive view of democracy, ignoring the effect of decades of misinformation. At no point did he try to do a 'what have the EU ever done for us?', unlike the recent missive you posted earlier. He had to sit on the fence, because labour voters were divided on Brexit. I've said this numerous times before.

Yes. Brexit proofed.
I should actually thank Covid 19 in part for this too. I'm in France, I've been running Cycling holidays in Provence since 2003. My client base has always been about 75% from the UK and 25% from elsewhere. In July, August and September this year my client base was 5% UK and 95% Schengen.
We prooved it can be done. We've made a few changes which will be announced in January. All monies and tax affairs almost all moved from the UK to France now. I no longer worry about clicking on the XE currency page first thing in the morning because I no longer give a f*ck about Sterling tanking any more.
I'm the tiniest cog in this massive machine - family run business with 2/3 seasonal employees but I've moved everything from the UK now. I know people in very very large organisations with 100s even 1000s of employees who have done the same.
I can't f*cking wait for 2021 to be honest.
All I have to do now is work to get the rights and lifestyle that my 14 year old daughter has in Europe for my 14 year old niece in Manchester.
Then I'll be happy and I'll finally be able to say "you won, suck it up buttercup."

E

And more fishy betrayal:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/dec/29/boris-is-a-kipper-fury-and...

The Spanish objections aren't an issue as long as the breakup of the UK is accepted as constitutionally sound by both sides.

The Spanish have long said this - the Spanish position on Catalonia is that the constitution forbids splitting up the country, so independence can't happen legally. A legal separation therefore sets no precedent for an illegal separation.

On top of that, a non-EU member breaking up, and one former part of it joining the EU sets no precedent for an EU member breaking up... so thanks to brexit they have even less train to worry about it.

Scotland has pretty unique potential for tidal power and hydrogen storage, to provide a great deal of green energy to Europe. 

That will make an independent Scotland very attractive to the EU.

Good to hear someones managing to make the best of a bad situation. Like you we've been trying to get brexit-proofed' so allmost all my savings are now in France & I should get my carte de séjour next week. But as a result of having worked at an EU agency but on secondment, my pension comes from the UK & is paid in pounds. But my wife's pension is French which should cushion any loss of my income and we still haven't sold our flat in the Paris suburbs so that could be a source of revenue or cash depending if we let or sell it.

My impression was that he was committed to Brexit. He knew this might cost some votes so he tried to keep quiet about quite how keen he was to side with the right of the Conservative party (a recurring theme for the idealistic left). He really wanted to string remain voters along which may be why he sometimes gave the impression that he was sitting on the fence (and the behaviour which cast the lib-dems as a greater threat than the conservatives). He tried hard to avoid questioning the original result and was a keen supporter of 'The Will of the People'. Then there was the wierd non-vote at the Labour Party Conference. His leadership model was very personal and non-collaborative (normalising the models of the right), with a paranonia about the media (resulting in helping normalise attacks by the right on the BBC etc).

I see that quote comes from a Scottish fisherman - given Scotland voted in majority to remain, I wonder how Scottish fishermen voted?

It seems to me Scots have done far better job at managing their fishing industry than rest of uk. 

I remember the sinking feeling when Corbyn came out with his seven out of ten remark. And hearing he wouldn't share a platform with Tories. He could have helped rescue a crap Remain campaign, remain was his Party's policy after all, but he stayed in his tent.

He could have worked within an international partnership to improve the prospects for workers and the planet.

By some miracle the Labour left got complete control of the party. They could have achieved so much, but they blew it. Now we have the Brexit we always knew we'd get. It looks like the turkey three days after Christmas. It's all we've got in the house, but nobody wants to eat it now. 

I wasn't arguing that, I was simply stating most people knew what the Labour party position was, most people chose to pretend it was all about sitting on the fence or not having any thoughts or policy on it. They did and it was obvious, not many people liked it, so they chose to make shit up or, being more magnanimous, to believe what suited their agenda. But there was always a plan and a response to Brexit

I agree he wasn't a leader, but not for the reason stated.

You need to look at the proportion of Labour voters that voted to leave.

That's hardly surprising. The populist antics of Farage and Johnson (and it was only those two, really) were specifically targeted at the traditional Labour electorate, appealing to dog whistle concerns over job security, immigration, stretched public services and the most compelling lie of all - downward pressure on wages as a result of EU free movement. Against this Remain put up Stuart Rose  and, dear God, David Cameron. Every time an area was seen to be trending towards Brexit, Cameron would be sent in to reinforce the Remain argument and I would think 'F*ck! There's another 100,000 votes gone then.'

We know Corbyn was a Brexiter, he didn't have the bottle to admit it or, to use the phrase du jour, he wanted his cake - supporting Brexit - and eat it - not seen to be in bed with Farage and Johnson. If he, or better yet and alternative LP leader such as Alan Johnson or Andy Burnham, had campaigned for Brexit and laid out the true choices with passion and conviction they could have swung it.

They do, albeit with a large amount of red tape that will put a couple out of business. Unfortunately the local industry catch way more than is consumed locally and are reliant on the French markets.  It's not a matter of greed, the local market simply isn't big enough to consume what is caught. Greed has put them in a worse position though, back in the day most landed to the Fisherman's Co-op who shipped the fish for them. Then a couple discovered they could make fractionally more money (10%) by landing to Faulkner fisheries from Jersey or to France direct and the Co-op lost economy of scale and folded, thus forcing more to land direct. PS. I'm not Steve

And you need to ask why a Labour leader failed to campaign passionately to those people why they should vote remain instead, and why brexit wasn't in their interest.

Do you not think as labour leader that was his responsibility to educate them and explain how harmful brexit would be?

In many ways he was as much a populist as Farage et al. He put his party/own leadership ambitions before the country and should have come out firmly in the remain camp. He was awful and anonymous in one of the countries most important decisions in generations.

I wouldn't be surprised if the number of GB nationals who've decided that Pritti's Britain isn't the place to stay has increased as well (and that's not including the Scots who want to part company with England/Wales).

Awesome plot twist. The senile old tw*t in that video was a UKIP supporter. Which means that the non existent sympathy I had for him has disappeared even more.

E

I could understand the government shafting fishermen IF it was in order to get a great deal for our huge and successful service sector but no, they have failed both groups ( and plenty of others).

That was asked in the debate yesterday...

Mr Dhesi

Many hon. Members will face a dire dilemma because they will feel that our country has been sold short. On the one hand, we have the Prime Minister’s thin, terrible, burnt oven-ready deal. On the other hand, we face the prospect of an even more damaging and destructive no-deal Brexit. Can the Prime Minister advise us why, given that services account for almost 80% of our economy, there is so little for that sector in this deal? In particular, why could he not negotiate equivalence and passporting rights for the all-important financial services sector?

The Prime Minister's response

It was not quite clear from that intervention which way the Labour party is going to go on this—whether the hon. Gentleman is going to go with the leader of the Labour party and vote for the deal, or whether he is going to join other members of the Labour party and continue to dither and delay. We on the Government Benches are going to get on; we will be free of the strictures of the common agricultural policy, and we will be able to conserve our landscapes and support our farmers exactly as we choose.

On Friday—I am coming to a point that has been raised several times, but I will repeat it because it is a wonderful point—for the first time in 50 years, the UK will once again be recognised as an independent coastal state, regaining control of our waters and righting the wrong that was done by the common fisheries policy throughout our EU membership. Of course I have always recognised—

Thats as close to an answer as you'll get

Campaigned for?

It wasn't Labour's baby though, the Torys were in charge, no matter who was in opposition, they had next to no influence, when cross party committees were suggested they we told to FRO!

Once again, I'm not defending Corbyn, simply stating people know Labour's position.

Wait for the details of the deal, and put it back to the people. To pretend otherwise is simply daft.

He also came out with a classic statement the day after the referendum when he stated that article 50 should be triggered immediately. Not even Farage or the hardened brexiteers were stupid enough to say that. Corbyn later tried to retract his comment saying it was due to a lack of sleep!

No answer at all then

Yes, but since we didn't know the details of any "deal" how could anyone say how damaging it would be. Considering was still don't have many details, it's a bit difficult to condemn something we had no facts about.

And what was he supposed to do about the Labour supporters who wanted Brexit, they believed this was going to be good for them, some still do, some wouldn't care anyway, some want Brexit simply because!!

I'm not suggesting he was good, I'm simply stating it's disingenuous to pretend people didn't know what Labour's position was. Remember they weren't in power and could only whinge for the sidelines really, same as Starmer now, what power has he go to change anything?

Yeah I turned it off after that...

I would estimate about 20% of the adult population so about 10% of the voters in the referendum (assuming they were less inclined to vote) wouldn't understand that.

Simply explain that it wasn't the EU's fault, point out automation etc. 

He could have made some attempt to explain what the EU did for them, how it benefitted them, and point out all the lies that most of them probably believed, because they'd been fed them for decades. The EU even had a helpful website that countered all the lies the likes of Johnson had told over the years.

But he didn't.

You mention cross-party working groups. Those were proposed after the referendum. We're talking about his lack of any effort in promoting remain during the referendum campaign.

ps. I'm not trying to pin all the blame on Corbyn (I've posted a list of those I hold most to blame; Corbyn is some way down it). But it's a bit rich when the old fool comes out with a statement like you posted, considering how fucking useless he was at trying to prevent it.

in 2019 election our local labour candidates web site had no obvious mention of eu or brexit. I then searched the site and found two tweets, one obscure one from about 9 months before and one which, in a bizzarre round about way tangentially mentioned brexit.and highlighted one of the few things said by our sitting tory mp i could actually agree with.

So we could lose part of our fishing industry which is .05% of our economy or lose most of our car producers because of 10% tariffs. Let me think about that!

A deal is exactly that, it's always a compromise between parties. Too many leavers thought it meant carte Blanche and we could have everything, well welcome to the real world.

Don't be ridiculous - I didn't say that. But I did say he is trying to appease the brexit supporting labour voters.
Don't support the deal. It's not even as 'good' as T May's.
He's a remainer (theoretically) and should fight for all the benefits we have lost and oppose the Tories tooth and nail in all their shoddy lying brexitness. He should oppose. He is leader of the opposition.

I knew what labour's position was. Utter silence. Corbyn muttering at the back of a door somewhere.

What power did he have to change anything? As much power as unelected Nigel Farage and the demon cohorts of Brexit - vociferous leaders. People follow leaders, often foolishly. They've followed the worst possible ones. And now Starmer wants to continue in the silent vein and is forcing the party to follow.

It's pathetic and infuriating. At least Sturgeon has the honesty to oppose.

Meanwhile in Kent.....59% leave:

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/politics/2021/jan/01/res...

Am sure some people (perhaps the 41%) have been betrayed, but for the others it’s hard for me to see/sympathise with them that this is a betrayal.....especially as all but one of the MPs in Kent are Conservative so people had the chance to vote on direction they wanted to take again in 2019

While Scotland did decisively vote remain, there are still 1,018,322 Scots (vs 1,661,191 remain voters) who are as much to blame as (51% of) the English.

And then what, what would we do if, the "deal" for what it's worth was turned down by parliament?

1 million people marched in London, and it made not one jot of difference.

Boris lies on a daily basis and it makes no difference.

Starmer has pointed out Boris' lies in parliament and it makes no difference.

Corbyn, was seen by many as someone who would change this, but his own party fought tooth and nail against him.

Like I said, I don't think he was leader material, but he would, with support, have changed many lives for the better. He was seen by many as their chance to be heard, not to be told what's happening but to involve them. Instead we've got what we've got, and the system will never change. The only thing that's changed is the lies are more blatant, because they really don't care.

I can't understand why, it's like buying anything expensive, let's try a house, you like the look of a house, it's in a great location, you don't pay the asking price straight away do you?

You get a survey done, depending on the results of the survey, you either adjust the price you are prepared to pay, accept the original price, or you walk away, but you need that information to make an informed offer.

People do this every day, WHY is it hard to understand?

This is why I end up looking like I'm defending Corbyn, when what I'm really defending against is stupidity or downright ignorance, sometimes wilful.