Brexit hasn't gone away...

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 Bob Kemp 13 Jul 2020

...unfortunately. Apparently the government has started outlining some of the things that will need to be considered in the event of no-deal. According to the Times these include:

No more reciprocal healthcare arrangements under the EHIC card scheme, meaning anyone travelling from Britain to EU countries will need comprehensive travel insurance.

No more statutory protection against mobile roaming charges; from 31 December providers are only required to send users a text when charges exceed £45.

Six months’ validity will be needed on UK passports for travel to the EU.

Preparations to take a pet from the UK to the EU will have to start up to four months in advance because the pet will need a rabies-free blood test at least 3 months old with the test taken at least 30 days after a rabies vaccination, if needed.

Importers and exporters will need to comply with a new 90-page rulebook to qualify for an Economic Operators Registration and Identification (EORI) number to take advantage of any new non-border customs clearance arrangements.

Oh, and the price of household goods is likely to go up:

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/jul/10/no-deal-brexit-will-raise-...

Could someone remind me what the benefits were again?

3
 jkarran 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Could someone remind me what the benefits were again?

Black passports we have to pretend are blue for some reason, and that they're not made in Poland by the French.

Oh oh oh yes, brexit is going to trigger the break up of the EU so Britain can once again divide and conquer Europe waiving the rules and ruling the waves.

Something like that anyway, I get too excited by all the winning to keep track.

jk

2
 Gustavo 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

There are no benefits associated with brexit. I think the people who voted for brexit clearly didn't think it through.

3
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Anyone else noticed we're working our way through the alphabet... Austerity... Brexit... Covid... What the eff is 'D'?

1
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

D is for Dominic... Our new blessed leader.

 colinakmc 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

Dickheads in charge

 Doug 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

have you seen the report of Michel Barnier's meeting with a House of Lords committee recently?

https://committees.parliament.uk/oralevidence/629/pdf/

 nikoid 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Could someone remind me what the benefits were again?

We get our country back don't we? 

I've heard loads of people say it on the telly so it must be true.😁

 Mr Lopez 13 Jul 2020
In reply to nikoid:

> We get our country back don't we? 

Just in time to hand it to the Americans in exchange for some chlorinated chicken

1
In reply to Bob Kemp:

... yeah but just to put everyones mind at rest... we won the war so it will all be alright...

Post edited at 15:46
 Harry Jarvis 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

> Could someone remind me what the benefits were again?

Apparently it means our care homes won't be able to recruit low-paid EU workers: 

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/jul/13/uk-new-fast-track-immigrati...

So that's good ...

In reply to Doug:

Thanks, that was a very interesting and informative read. 

 jkarran 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Gustavo:

> There are no benefits associated with brexit. I think the people who voted for brexit clearly didn't think it through.

There are huge benefits for the clique of zealots, fools and opportunists it propelled to power and for those who bankrolled that journey to government. It's going to take years to unpick it all but when the covid accounts are finally signed off you can bet your bottom billion it's brexit donors topping every list of beneficiaries from government panic buying.

Putin must be pretty chuffed too.

jk

Post edited at 16:17
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 Ian W 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Doug:

> have you seen the report of Michel Barnier's meeting with a House of Lords committee recently?

Hugely interesting read, in a depressing way........and fascinating that Boris now appears to want to reopen the withdrawal agreement. Is that actually possible now that its law, and we left on 31/1/20?

 GrahamD 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

We have taken back control, so decision making is in the hands of democratically elected representatives like Dominic Cummings.   Oh hang on a sec ....

I feel like Brexit is kinda irrelevant now. 

We were told Brexit would cause 8-10% less growth of GDP, over 10 years. Not ideal, of course, but not killer. 

COVID is aiming to literally knock 10-15% off our GDP this year.. Not just slowed growth, actual material loss of GDP. Our GDP this year, will be less than last years. No Brexit predictions predicted that.  

COVID has f*cked the economy so hard that it's really going to be hard to distinguish any Brexit impact from the background noise of the COVID recession. 
Any government intervention/stimulus that helps with the COVID recession, will also help counter any of the Brexit economic turmoil. 

Country is economically screwed for the next 5 years minimum regardless. 

So, yeah. I've definitely given up caring. 

16
 Jenny C 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Which part of this is news? All of your points have been public knowledge since before we even voted.

Only thing that's changed is that now it's 'too late' to ask for an extension to the negotiations the government is finally acknowledging them, rather than just giving empty reassurances that they are working hard to get us the best deal. 

 wercat 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Doug:

It's like a dialogue between adults, not what he gets when he has to deal with the brownshorts in government

can't we just rid ourselves of them

Post edited at 18:04
 balmybaldwin 13 Jul 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

The problem is that outside of the single market and without trade deals our recovery from Covid will be significantly impaired compared to those around us.

I would also argue that Brexit is part of the reason we have had such a slow and badly managed response to Covid - the government haven't been governing for the last 4 years, they've been playing with their pet project at the neglect of everything else

2
 Doug 13 Jul 2020
In reply to wercat:

When reading the report I couldn't help thinking that it might be better if the adults in the House of Lords were in control rather than the kids in the Commons...

 Lord_ash2000 13 Jul 2020
In reply to GripsterMoustache:

Yeah got agree on that, there were endless threads on here over the last couple of years with anti Vs pro Brexit people over the possibility of zero point whatever percentage changes to GDP up or down because of XYZ Brexit related effect on the price of bananas or some crap. 

The fact is now with Covid19 any effect Brexit may or may not have had on the economy has been relegated to a rounding error now. No one really cares anymore because it's been totally swamped by the economic destruction we've caused ourselves.

14
 Ian W 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Yeah got agree on that, there were endless threads on here over the last couple of years with anti Vs pro Brexit people over the possibility of zero point whatever percentage changes to GDP up or down because of XYZ Brexit related effect on the price of bananas or some crap. 

> The fact is now with Covid19 any effect Brexit may or may not have had on the economy has been relegated to a rounding error now. No one really cares anymore because it's been totally swamped by the economic destruction we've caused ourselves.

As per upthread, it was around 8%, and that is a reduction in gdp, not slower growth, rather than zero point whatever. We have that coming over the next year or two on top of the covid effect.......

In reply to balmybaldwin:

> I would also argue that Brexit is part of the reason we have had such a slow and badly managed response to Covid - the government haven't been governing for the last 4 years, they've been playing with their pet project at the neglect of everything else

What you have said is absolutely indisputable. They were having Brexit meetings rather than attending Cobra, for example. Facts hurt sometimes.

2
 Tyler 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

If you break your ankle it still matters if you also subsequently break your arm, especially if you are crawling to hospital.

If Covid-19 never goes away then you might have a point but most are pinning their hopes (however unrealistically) on a very swift bounce back following the management of the virus - Brexit is here for the long term. That's just looking at the economic effects before you deal with the clogging up of trade, our inability to staff care homes, pick fruit, have a working sat nav etc.

1
 Trevers 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Seeing as the cost of an Alpine holiday will now be significantly higher than it was previously, I wonder if leave voters would be happy to chip in to cover my additional expenses?

3
 Trevers 13 Jul 2020
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> I would also argue that Brexit is part of the reason we have had such a slow and badly managed response to Covid - the government haven't been governing for the last 4 years, they've been playing with their pet project at the neglect of everything else

And they're going to balls it up anyway, because they're either a bunch of privileged morons who couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery, or Russian sleeper agents.

Post edited at 19:00
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 Dax H 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Harry Jarvis:

> Apparently it means our care homes won't be able to recruit low-paid EU workers: 

I class this as a good thing, maybe it's time we started paying the people who care for our elderly a decent wage instead of the bare minimum allowed by law. 

OP Bob Kemp 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Jenny C:

> Which part of this is news? All of your points have been public knowledge since before we even voted.

This is largely true, but it is no longer possible to smear them as being parts of 'Project Fear'.

 Tyler 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Dax H:

> I class this as a good thing, maybe it's time we started paying the people who care for our elderly a decent wage instead of the bare minimum allowed by law. 

If that were one of the outcomes I think we would all see that as a positive but I think its far more likely that when the shit hits the fan the govt will provide a load of temporary visas for workers to come and do the jobs for even lower wages than are currently paid. The world is full of poor migratory workers being exploited and there is a ready made infrastructure of agents that the govt can call upon rather than wait for market forces to drag the newly unemployed indigenous population down to Kent to do some fruit picking or Llandudno to work in care homes.

 Andy Hardy 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Dax H:

Those low paid EU workers are on a king's ransom on a global scale, which is how the architects of brexit like to think. So now we will free ourselves from the tyranny of EU employment law (aka red tape) and hire in staff from wherever is cheapest.

Welcome to the race to the bottom.

2
 balmybaldwin 13 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Not to mention reducing prospects and aspirations for millions of UK workers (someone WILL have to pick the fruit until that glut of cheap workers arrives)

1
 jkarran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

> Yeah got agree on that, there were endless threads on here over the last couple of years with anti Vs pro Brexit people over the possibility of zero point whatever percentage changes to GDP up or down because of XYZ Brexit related effect on the price of bananas or some crap. 

> The fact is now with Covid19 any effect Brexit may or may not have had on the economy has been relegated to a rounding error now. No one really cares anymore because it's been totally swamped by the economic destruction we've caused ourselves.

No, it's absolutely still there, lurking below the surface, hampering our recovery, holding us back relative to our peers. Not just present but the very worst alarmist excesses of 2016 project fear are basically now the policy aims of our failed 2020 government of dimwits and toadys. The hollowing out of minesterial competence and sense necessary to get 'brexit' over the line has unfortunately also ensured our covid experience has been among the very worst globally with no end in sight. 

Because of brexit and the wank stained sock puppets it propelled to power our pandemic crisis is the deepest in Europe, our death toll the highest by miles, our response isolationist and chaotic and we'll be limping into the recovery race with both feet shot to ribbons dragging a smoking cannon called freedom.

Jk

Post edited at 00:57
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 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Lord_ash2000:

We must be the first country in history to deliberately impose harsh economic sanctions upon ourselves during the recovery from a serious recession.

1
 freeflyer 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> Those low paid EU workers are on a king's ransom on a global scale, which is how the architects of brexit like to think. So now we will free ourselves from the tyranny of EU employment law (aka red tape) and hire in staff from wherever is cheapest.

> Welcome to the race to the bottom.

They are simply delivering on their manifesto promises: "There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down. And we will ensure that the British people are always in control."

The Migration Advisory Committee are tasked with getting it done. More details were given to journalists:

https://www.freemovement.org.uk/the-conservative-plan-for-immigration-after...

For low-skilled jobs they will allocate sector-specific rules-based quotas to individual industries, for example the Seasonal Agricultural Workers' scheme.

The key political element of these new arrangements is that visas will be time-limited, and the workers will not be allowed to settle in the UK.

It's licensed slavery. Why would you want to come and work in the UK for low pay with no job security?

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Phantom Disliker:

> Anyone else noticed we're working our way through the alphabet... Austerity... Brexit... Covid... What the eff is 'D'?

Dictatorship ?

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to freeflyer:

> The key political element of these new arrangements is that visas will be time-limited, and the workers will not be allowed to settle in the UK.

> It's licensed slavery. Why would you want to come and work in the UK for low pay with no job security

Exactly. They are breaking the link between residence and settlement, effectively providing employers with a disposable source of workers over which they have total leverage.

Obviously this system is unlikely to attract the most talented people, and is more likely to attract people from much poorer places who want to migrate for economic reasons. But in the end, that is exactly how the government sees them: a disposable economic ressource with very little rights.

Post edited at 02:33
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 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> Exactly. They are breaking the link between residence and settlement, effectively providing employers with a disposable source of workers over which they have total leverage.

> Obviously this system is unlikely to attract the most talented people, and is more likely to attract people from much poorer places who want to migrate for economic reasons. But in the end, that is exactly how the government sees them: a disposable economic ressource with very little rights.

Isn't this because everyone is a bunch of hypocrites? Look at the postings here, if everyone was prepared to pay more for their food or care staff, the jobs would be filled by the UK population or the wages would be high enough to meet this new mystical criteria. 

Look at the price of budget veg per kilo and think of how many people and processes are in the chain, it's little wonder your carrot picker is a modern day slave. But let's keeping ranting about 200 year old statues instead. 

Folk expect something for next to nothing, then complain about the system it creates. 

And this is the pretty end, imagine what the places look like in Asia which are rattling out goods for us for peanuts. 

Ps. There is little advantage in being fastened to the eu; France, Italy and Spain have economies in a far dire state than the UK. 

7
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Isn't this because everyone is a bunch of hypocrites? Look at the postings here, if everyone was prepared to pay more for their food or care staff, the jobs would be filled by the UK population or the wages would be high enough to meet this new mystical criteria. 

> Look at the price of budget veg per kilo and think of how many people and processes are in the chain, it's little wonder your carrot picker is a modern day slave. But let's keeping ranting about 200 year old statues instead. 

> Folk expect something for next to nothing, then complain about the system it creates. 

 

I’m not sure I should respond to that given his disingenuous this is. We’ve just explained that the new post brexit immigration system facilitates the exploitation of foreign workers.

Under free movement workers have the same rights as native, they can change employers, and sell their skills to the highest bidder. Under a visa system you are tied to one employer who has also tremendous leverage over you as any visa renewal etc depends on them.

It’s very much a Dubai-style immigration system. Let a lot of people in to do work in but give them far less rights and let employers abuse them.

> Ps. There is little advantage in being fastened to the eu; France, Italy and Spain have economies in a far dire state than the UK.

That isn’t true but that’s not even the point.

After reality has totally demolished the brexit lies you peddled for years, you’d think you would be hiding in shame, but no, here you are, peddling the same bullshit.

Post edited at 08:15
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 john arran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

That's because tribalism often trumps reason. If a football player were to nut a referee and get sent off, many of the team's 'fans' would still take the side of the player.

2
 Offwidth 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

Don't forget the reward for the brexit MP who said deals with the EU and everywhere else would be easy, is now our recommendation to run the WTO, the international trade referee. Almost beyond satire. Plus all the dodgy procurement deals for Cummings team Brexit pals that looks like straightforward corruption.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/08/uk-nominates-liam-fox-world-t...

https://www.opendemocracy.net/en/dark-money-investigations/revealed-key-cum...

Those warning about the potential for bias and even corruption under Boris were portrayed as some kind of lunatic fringe by the government 6 months back but here we are already.

Despite all this I hope as the scale of this disaster for our economy and democracy becomes more apparent I do hope remainers direct their ire at this joke of a government and those who funded the project and not the people they duped. On the subject Lord Ash and summo raised.. I am mostly certainly feeling the growing negative change in democracy compared to what we had under May. Plus the vast majority of economists predictions were not temporary blips either (including government official predictions under Boris) they are long term gaps due to not being in the European market where the vast majority of our trade lies; this will act as an additional leg iron on our recovery from the economic covid shock (itself much worse than it needed to be given the government shambolic response); nevermind the small matter of tens of thousands of unnecessary deaths. In the meantime some of the liars who bankrolled the Brexit project already have new swill.

Post edited at 09:10
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Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to john arran:

Did you notice as well the completely out of place side point about statues.

It’s laughably text-book: when in doubt throw a bit of culture war in there to try and distract from the obvious lies.

5
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> Dictatorship ?

Dick-tatorship.

Or perhaps it should just be Dom

1
 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> That isn’t true but that’s not even the point.

It's no myth some euro economies are screwed. They were border line recession in the last quarter of 2019 before covid had even started. 

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-53319935?intlink_from_url=https://www.bbc...

Free movement.. It works if economies and wage levels are equal, however it also allows the UK to effectively under pay eastern Europeans and make them live like slaves, because relative to their homeland the wages are still acceptable. 

4
 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> Did you notice as well the completely out of place side point about statues.

> It’s laughably text-book: when in doubt throw a bit of culture war in there to try and distract from the obvious lies.

No it's just masses of ukc have double standards.. they complain about immigration policy, slavery but like cheap goods. They complain about tax evasion and zero hour contracts then shop with Amazon..  it's endless. 

Next time you buy your veg, or frozen chicken for two quid think why it's so cheap. Or look at the labels on climbing kit and see where it's made etc.. 

Post edited at 10:15
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 Offwidth 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

We will see. If the EU is not to fall apart those countries may well need help but it seems inconceivable to me they will be allowed to fail. Italy has been a basket case for decades and still it trundles along somehow.

I agree with your concerns on minimum wage labour but they should be working within a strong legal context. Whatever level of 'working like slaves' exists now is hardly going to improve under lighter touch legislation and a visa attached to the job.

1
 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Offwidth:

I agree. Currently only 0.5 billion has UK access under freedom of movement for employment. The many many other billions from the rest of world already need to apply, arrive and work under existing visa schemes. Much of the gang masters (terrible wording) legislation improved after the cockle pickers tragedy, but it will be curious how this is impacted by investigations into those Leicestershire clothes factories.

Plenty other civilised countries like oz and NZ have points based migration system. The UK doesn't need to follow the middle East slave Labour model. 

The eu; Germany will help save them because it's tied to the euro, it has no choice. It's enjoyed the good years of devaluing their currency and lending money, now it's come back to haunt them. 

6
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> I agree. Currently only 0.5 billion has UK access under freedom of movement for employment. The many many other billions from the rest of world already need to apply, arrive and work under existing visa schemes. Much of the gang masters (terrible wording) legislation improved after the cockle pickers tragedy, but it will be curious how this is impacted by investigations into those Leicestershire clothes factories.

> Plenty other civilised countries like oz and NZ have points based migration system. The UK doesn't need to follow the middle East slave Labour model. 

So this is it? Brexit in solidarity with the rest of the world who are desperate to come to the UK and work for a pittance? Brexit to end discrimination against non-EU citizens?

The idea that migrant labourers of whatever nationality will somehow be subject to better treatment, pay and protection after Brexit is utterly risible. The people who pushed Brexit on us are the modern equivalent of Victorian workhouse owners employing children. And Brexit voters were hardly crying out for more work and environmental protections.

Post edited at 11:11
1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> No it's just masses of ukc have double standards.. they complain about immigration policy, slavery but like cheap goods. They complain about tax evasion and zero hour contracts then shop with Amazon..  it's endless

And yet you support brexit that will allow workers and foreigners to be more easily  exploited. And you talk about hypocrisy. Nonsense.

> Next time you buy your veg, or frozen chicken for two quid think why it's so cheap. Or look at the labels on climbing kit and see where it's made etc..

A defining characteristic of your posting style is whataboutery, and that’s another example of it.

Someone tells you about the problem of the future immigration system and your answer is some vague point about cheap veggies, and climbing gear... (For the record I grow my own vegetables, buy locally source meat that isn’t cheap, and I am a DMM fan so my climbing gear is made in Wales... and also far from cheap.)
 

Post edited at 11:16
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 john arran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

A defining characteristic of the whole Brexit lie is "we could". Even ignoring the very many cases where, in practice, 'we could' actually turns out to be 'we can't', when considering the people actually in charge, 'we could' and 'we will' are at diametrically opposite ends of the scale.

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> So this is it? Brexit in solidarity with the rest of the world who are desperate to come to the UK and work for a pittance? Brexit to end discrimination against non-EU citizens?

> The idea that migrant labourers of whatever nationality will somehow be subject to better treatment, pay and protection after Brexit is utterly risible.

 

Indeed. The whole point is that we will be replacing workers with the same rights as native, with a disposable workforce with inferior rights, whose entire right to stay in the U.K. depends on the goodwill of their Victorian masters.

3
 Fractral 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> No it's just masses of ukc have double standards.. they complain about immigration policy, slavery but like cheap goods. They complain about tax evasion and zero hour contracts then shop with Amazon..  it's endless. 

Which is the reason why we call for regulation rather than relying on the end user to be perfectly informed. It is not feasible for an ordinary person to be aware of every morally dubious or outright evil thing a company does so that they can compare brands and decide which compromises their ideals less. In some cases it is easy - don't shop with Amazon - but usually it takes time and effort to research.

Government regulation on minimum standards, banning the exploitation of workers by Amazon and their competitors, requiring companies to do due diligence in ensuring modern slavery does not make up part of their supply chain would work far better than individual boycotts if enforced. Then we offload the requirement to investigate the supply chain of a company from the consumer to the company itself. Hence it is a better use of my time to campaign for increased regulation while avoiding the very worst offenders than it is to maintain a ranking of which companies are the worst and scrutinizing every purchasing decision I have to make.

I do not think the above is likely to happen under a Conservative government given their propensity to enrich themselves at the public's expense, but it is worth pushing for regardless.

2
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to john arran:

> A defining characteristic of the whole Brexit lie is "we could". Even ignoring the very many cases where, in practice, 'we could' actually turns out to be 'we can't', when considering the people actually in charge, 'we could' and 'we will' are at diametrically opposite ends of the scale.

And this is deliberately so, because the goals of Brexit for the super-rich elite who forced it upon us are diametrically opposed to the hoped for goals of those they tricked into voting for it.

2
 David Riley 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> And this is deliberately so, because the goals of Brexit for the super-rich elite who forced it upon us are diametrically opposed to the hoped for goals of those they tricked into voting for it.

Ah, conspiracy theory.

9
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to David Riley:

> Ah, conspiracy theory.

Why don't you quash it then? Give me one f*cking benefit of all this f*cking mess. Just one. You've had four and a half years to come up with one, it shouldn't be difficult.

1
 Andy Hardy 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

Well, I think it means V.P. keeps the pictures of A. de P, the pig's head and the 4 dwarves in bolivian national dress safely out of the public domain. For that we can *all* be profoundly grateful.

 Ian W 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> No it's just masses of ukc have double standards.. they complain about immigration policy, slavery but like cheap goods. They complain about tax evasion and zero hour contracts then shop with Amazon..  it's endless. 

> Next time you buy your veg, or frozen chicken for two quid think why it's so cheap. Or look at the labels on climbing kit and see where it's made etc.. 

Except that there are many on here, myself included,  who strongly believe that we collectively need to pay more taxes in order to pay for the services we are being starved of, and that the "austerity / isolationist" approach of the government since 2010 is not the way we want to see the country going. The rank dishonesty, incompetence and corruption of the current lot in power is only making feelings stronger.

 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Fractral:

Always good to have others to blame rather than accept responsibility that your actions may in part impact things.

The UKC collective aren't exactly uneducated or lacking knowledge, they'll be quite aware of which companies are offshoring their taxes or if they are able buy something very cheaply that some people in the chain are likely being exploited. 

6
 thomasadixon 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

Control of law making.  You might not give a shit about it, or see it as a benefit, but you should have been able to get it through your head by now that lots of people do.

It’s not difficult at all, why you find it so hard I don’t know.

7
 Timmd 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> No it's just masses of ukc have double standards.. they complain about immigration policy, slavery but like cheap goods. They complain about tax evasion and zero hour contracts then shop with Amazon..  it's endless. 

> Next time you buy your veg, or frozen chicken for two quid think why it's so cheap. Or look at the labels on climbing kit and see where it's made etc.. 

I'm thinking these double standards are seen in most people, but very good points.

 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Ian W:

Many voters think more should be spent, more taxes paid etc.. only by other people, not them. That's why the UK has had decades of falling taxes for everyone and declining services. 

 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Timmd:

> I'm thinking these double standards are seen in most people, but very good points.

 No one is perfect. It's near impossible to live entirely ethically. I don't, but i try and at least I acknowledge my spending is part of the problem. 

 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> The idea that migrant labourers of whatever nationality will somehow be subject to better treatment, pay and protection after Brexit is utterly risible. The people who pushed Brexit on us are the modern equivalent of Victorian workhouse owners employing children. And Brexit voters were hardly crying out for more work and environmental protections.

Yeah... we could have stayed in and all work places would been perfect like Leicestershire sweat shops? I bet work conditions in nz, Canada, oz etc are dreadful because they aren't in the eu. 

Ps. I'll just highlight I didn't vote tory, I voted lib Dem as they are more likely to make society fairer than either of the other two. 

1
 Timmd 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

A sister in law has liked to make noise about being ethical occasionally and I've noticed they have an Amazon Fire Stick.

There's a good chance that the fruit and veg which comes from Spain which we get in supermarkets in the UK, is from people working in servitude conditions in poly tunnel tents I gather. 

Post edited at 13:38
 WaterMonkey 14 Jul 2020
In reply to David Riley:

Still waiting for you to answer Trevers' post.

"Why don't you quash it then? Give me one f*cking benefit of all this f*cking mess. Just one. You've had four and a half years to come up with one, it shouldn't be difficult."

You've had four and a half years and an hour now..

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> It's no myth some euro economies are screwed. They were border line recession in the last quarter of 2019 before covid had even started. 

The Uk has pretty much the worst economic impact from COVID in Europe, and we're heading for a no-deal or similar type Brexit at the end of the year, which is going to be an economic disaster compounding another.

Yes, the GDP decline they report for the eurozone are about half that of the UK.

Well done for posting links that destroy your own argument, it spares us the effort ....

> Free movement.. It works if economies and wage levels are equal, however it also allows the UK to effectively under pay eastern Europeans and make them live like slaves, because relative to their homeland the wages are still acceptable. 

So your answer to that is instead to give foreign workers fewer rights, put them under a visa system that empowers the employer to abuse them, and make them come from even poorer places.

Completely logical...

I'm, already bored discussing with you. It's like talking to a bad AI chatbot. Everything is grammatically correct but nothing makes any sense.

4
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Yeah... we could have stayed in and all work places would been perfect like Leicestershire sweat shops? I bet work conditions in nz, Canada, oz etc are dreadful because they aren't in the eu. 

The post brexit immigration system they are pushing for is completely at odds with that of Canada or Oz, and that tof Canada is totally different Oz. So these comparisons are totally meaningless. The system in OZ as a pretty bad reputation for exploiting foreign workers, in particular, so I am not sure why you would want that model.

The system they are pushing for is closer to that of the United Arab Emirates. It considers immigrants as a pure economic resource with no rights who are there for the sole and unique benefit of the economy.

In the new system, the salary threshold for migrant workers will actually be much lower than what it is now, it's just that the government will have much more say over who is allowed to come or not. It's all about centralising power and using it as a political tool for control.

As for seasonal workers they will now be allowed to come from anywhere, even the poorest countries, the main difference is that they'll have no right to eventually settle in the UK, no right to public funds, and they won't be able to change employer if they are treated like shit by theirs. It's close to state-sponsored slavery or what you see in Dubai.

Post edited at 13:51
2
 Alkis 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Control of law making.  You might not give a shit about it, or see it as a benefit, but you should have been able to get it through your head by now that lots of people do.

> It’s not difficult at all, why you find it so hard I don’t know.

Because it's an illusion. Every country that is in a trade agreement of any description has to adopt rules from that trade agreement. Some of them control more of production in exchange for more permissive import/export rules than others. To think that leaving the EU will suddenly mean that we can do whatever the hell we fancy and export to whoever the hell we fancy cheaper than we do to the EU is literally bollocks.

So, instead we find ourselves at the mercy of both the US and the EU rules as an outsider with no control over the rule making. Good job.

2
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alkis:

> So, instead we find ourselves at the mercy of both the US and the EU rules as an outsider with no control over the rule making. Good job.

"Grandiose isolation" is think is a pretty good description of what they are shooting for.

1
 john arran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Control of law making.  You might not give a shit about it, or see it as a benefit, but you should have been able to get it through your head by now that lots of people do.

> It’s not difficult at all, why you find it so hard I don’t know.

Of course you do know the obvious follow-up question, which is:

Give me one example of a law that the UK would like to change that it has not proven possible to change while in the EU, and that would come even close to justifying the universally predicted long-term economic and social damage of leaving.

I'm sure such an easy question will be 'not difficult at all' for you.

1
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Control of law making.  You might not give a shit about it, or see it as a benefit, but you should have been able to get it through your head by now that lots of people do.

> It’s not difficult at all, why you find it so hard I don’t know.

The problem with this is that from a hypothetical point of principal, I see the argument. But when you break it down to specifics, it completely falls apart.

Which EU laws were drafted without our collaboration? Which did we have forced upon us against our will? Which would you like to get rid of, and what would you replace them with? In what way are trade deals with the US or China more likely to preserve our sovereignty than full EU membership? If you can answer those questions then I'll accept your point.

It's always struck me that the most rigorous arguments for Brexit were always in fact arguments for staying and reforming within the EU.

And then there's also the non-trivial problem that our current administration seems intent on reducing scrutiny and democratic accountability and introducing corruption and cronyism as a means of government. Complaints about "unelected bureaucrats" ring rather hollow if you're comfortable with the power that Cummings has amassed as an almost direct result of the referendum. But this isn't an intrinsic paradox of Brexit but rather an issue with who we've collectively entrusted to carry it out.

Post edited at 14:04
 thomasadixon 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alkis:

What you think is irrelevant, I think it’s a benefit.  That’s the answer to the question Trevers asked.

5
 thomasadixon 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

Waffle, waffle, rehash those old tired arguments again!

Do you accept you’ve been answered yet?

15
 Andy Hardy 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Control of law making.  You might not give a shit about it, or see it as a benefit, but you should have been able to get it through your head by now that lots of people do.

> It’s not difficult at all, why you find it so hard I don’t know.


Which aspect(s) of law making in the UK was "controlled" by the EU?

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> What you think is irrelevant, I think it’s a benefit.  That’s the answer to the question Trevers asked.

Interesting. So I guess you are in favour of Scottish independence then ?

1
 Alkis 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

Which part of that is "what I think" rather than fact, exactly?

Anyhow, it doesn't matter. You own this now. You "won". You'd better deliver on those benefits of leaving because for us it is now a win-win situation. If you deliver we all win, if you don't deliver you are *never in your lifetimes* going to hear the end of it.

Post edited at 14:12
1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Waffle, waffle, rehash those old tired arguments again!

> Do you accept you’ve been answered yet?

Your answer rests on a lie, which is that the U.K. didn’t have control over it’s own laws. This is false.

Post edited at 14:14
1
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Waffle, waffle, rehash those old tired arguments again!

> Do you accept you’ve been answered yet?

None so blind as those who will not see...

1
 thomasadixon 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

Lol

No, but I’m not going to endlessly ask why Scots nats are.  I get why they are, it’s really not hard to understand.

Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> And then there's also the non-trivial problem that our current administration seems intent on reducing scrutiny and democratic accountability and introducing corruption and cronyism as a means of government. Complaints about "unelected bureaucrats" ring rather hollow if you're comfortable with the power that Cummings has amassed as an almost direct result of the referendum. But this isn't an intrinsic paradox of Brexit but rather an issue with who we've collectively entrusted to carry it out.

The main purpose of brexit was to put in power people who would otherwise never have made it there otherwise. Johnson doesn’t even believe his own bullshit.

Post edited at 14:18
2
 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> The main purpose of brexit was to put in power people who would otherwise never have made it there otherwise. Johnson doesn’t even believe his own bullshit.

Well I agree, but these things are separate from the principle of Brexit. There are many leave supporters who are appalled with this government.

Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> Well I agree, but these things are separate from the principle of Brexit. There are many leave supporters who are appalled with this government.

Well you reap what you sow.

Post edited at 14:28
1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Lol

> No, but I’m not going to endlessly ask why Scots nats are. 

 

So basically you want the U.K. to have control if its own laws (something it already had) but you don’t agree that Scotland (which actually doesn’t have it) should have it.

That’s a pretty big inconsistency which reveals that your real reasons for brexit have nothing to do with controlling law making.

Post edited at 14:31
2
 thomasadixon 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

We didn’t, I don’t know why you repeat that lie over and over.

I don’t think Bristol should be independent either.  It’s not an inconsistency.

Post edited at 14:47
8
 jkarran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Yeah... we could have stayed in and all work places would been perfect like Leicestershire sweat shops? I bet work conditions in nz, Canada, oz etc are dreadful because they aren't in the eu. 

The whataboutary, do you even know you're doing it? It's absurd.

jk

4
 stevieb 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Many voters think more should be spent, more taxes paid etc.. only by other people, not them. That's why the UK has had decades of falling taxes for everyone and declining services. 

https://www.oecd.org/tax/revenue-statistics-united-kingdom.pdf
what falling taxes? Taxes are currently a higher share of GDP than any time this century. It’s just that VAT now makes up a much larger share. 

 jkarran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> What you think is irrelevant, I think it’s a benefit.  That’s the answer to the question Trevers asked.

I think the moon is made of cheese. Bollocks right?

I could of course make an argument for why I think the moon is cheese, it'd be weak and incoherent at best, easily challenged. So being a sensible chap I won't, I'll just say "the moon is cheese and my opinion is as valid as everyone else's", even those who can clearly articulate with strong supporting evidence why they believe it is not in fact made of cheese.

jk

2
 WaterMonkey 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Control of law making.  

Erm, have you seen the laws we've been making over the last 4 months despite still being in the EU?

 Fractral 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Always good to have others to blame rather than accept responsibility that your actions may in part impact things.

That's something we can agree on.

> The UKC collective aren't exactly uneducated or lacking knowledge, they'll be quite aware of which companies are offshoring their taxes or if they are able buy something very cheaply that some people in the chain are likely being exploited. 

I appreciate your high opinion of the users of this website, although I think you overstate our level of knowledge as to the financial goings on of various large companies. Unfortunately we don't make up a significant proportion of the population of the UK, so I don't follow that because we're all educated on here there is no need for regulation.

If you ask someone on the street what they think about Nestle, they're probably not going to have an especially negative view. They most likely haven't heard of the rather unpleasant things Nestle does with water in drought-hit communities, or the scandals over baby formula, or the child slave trafficking, because Nestle does not advertise that. It's all very well to say "Well they should educate themselves" but if one does not know that there is something to learn about the dirty history (and present, and most likely future) of a company they will not know to go and educate themselves.

So, regulation helps because when a company does something unethical like outsource their production to Uyghur concentration camps in Xinjiang they can be slapped with a punitive fine, a much more effective solution to bringing about the change you claim to also want.

Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> We didn’t, I don’t know why you repeat that lie over and over.

The U.K. always did. I don’t know why you repeat that lie over and over.

The only reason EU rules had effect in the U.K. is because of an U.K. law. That’s the same with ANY international treaty provision. The entire British legal system is based on the idea that the Westminster parliament is the supreme law-making authority. It can override anything with a simple majority.

The U.K. made a sovereign choice to take part in the EU, a choice that was implemented through U.K. law, and it made the choice to leave the EU, again through U.K. law. Westminster ALWAYS had control.

This is a very different situation in Scotland, as Westminster can always override Holyrood.

> I don’t think Bristol should be independent either.  It’s not an inconsistency.

It is an inconsistency. If Bristol wanted to be their own country and make their own laws I’d have no issue with that, at all, personally. I’d wish them good luck.
I don’t think they have such ambitions so it’s a completely moot point you are making.

The reality is that you bang on about a sovereignty you always had whilst denying it to others.

I find it quite repulsive if I’m honnest.

Post edited at 15:52
2
 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to stevieb:

> what falling taxes? Taxes are currently a higher share of GDP than any time this century. It’s just that VAT now makes up a much larger share. 

It's easy to find graphs to match your point of view.

https://ourworldindata.org/grapher/income-taxes-share-of-revenue-europe?tim...

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> It's easy to find graphs to match your point of view.

It's only income tax. So that graph doesn't support your point of view. 

1
 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> It's only income tax. So that graph doesn't support your point of view. 

If the UK population is so heavily taxed, where is it going? It's not going on public service, infrastructure etc. Granted some goes on debt servicing, but not all of it. 

Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> If the UK population is so heavily taxed, where is it going? It's not going on public service, infrastructure etc. Granted some goes on debt servicing, but not all of it. 

The biggest chunks goes in the pocket of pensioners. We have more and more pensioners so that's why it grows.

Post edited at 16:03
1
 summo 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> The biggest chunks goes in the pocket of pensioners. We have more and more pensioners so that's why it grows.

By my source that's 12 per cent of total public spending, and 4.6 per cent of national income, hardly the lions share and to qualify for the full pension you need 30 years working and paying in, so it's not like they are taking money out they haven't paid in at some point. (Yes I know it doesn't actually sit in a pot and it is just paid from the revenue annually.)

Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> By my source that's 12 per cent of total public spending, and 4.6 per cent of national income, hardly the lions share and to qualify for the full pension you need 30 years working and paying in, so it's not like they are taking money out they haven't paid in at some point. (Yes I know it doesn't actually sit in a pot and it is just paid from the revenue annually.)

The vast majority of British taxpayer are a fiscal burden, cost of education, healthcare and pension offset what they bring in taxes contributions. That is why overall the government runs a deficit.

Pensions are about 24%, it's one of the biggest cost centre with the NHS which is also costing more and more due to the demographic change.

In order to not be a fiscal burden to the state, you need to be about in the top quarter of income. Or be an immigrant that comes at working age.

2
 stevieb 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> It's easy to find graphs to match your point of view.

But your graph bears almost no relation to the point you were making. 
My graph shows All tax as a percentage of gdp for the past 20 years and compared to other advanced economies 
your graph shows income tax as a percentage of government spending for last century. But does nicely back up my point about (Regressive) VAT doing the heavy lifting to allow income tax reduction. 

 thomasadixon 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

I’m not denying sovereignty to anyone.  Scotland voted, they chose to stay.  I support that right to choose.

I find the way that you twist everything pretty repulsive, but I try to refrain from insults.  Unlike you.  Should not have replied to one of these threads.

2
 Glug 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> The main purpose of brexit was to put in power people who would otherwise never have made it there otherwise. Johnson doesn’t even believe his own bullshit.

That's not true though is it, at the time of the referendum Cameron was stating that he would abide by the result, in or out, it was him resigning that led to the shower we now have in power. 

1
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Glug:

> That's not true though is it, at the time of the referendum Cameron was stating that he would abide by the result, in or out, it was him resigning that led to the shower we now have in power. 

True but that's hardly the point. The only way a bunch like the current one could get into power is by demolishing moderate conservatism, and that was achieved through a sustained campaign of lies and the shock of brexit.

The powerful political force of conservatism ( typically promoting a small state, iterative and slow change, rely on individual responsibility for society to function) is now dead and buried and has been replaced by a radical political force that seeks a strong, centralised, authoritarian state.

To achieve such a radical change in British politics and in the minds of the electorate you need something pretty strong. What's best than a long sustained campaign of propaganda, demagoguery, the fuelling of division, hatred and ideologies, jingoism, and a big political shock.  That is what Brexit was for..

3
Alyson30 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> I’m not denying sovereignty to anyone.  Scotland voted, they chose to stay.  I support that right to choose.

Ok, so you support devolving the power to hold independence referendum then? 

> I find the way that you twist everything pretty repulsive, but I try to refrain from insults.  Unlike you.  Should not have replied to one of these threads.

This is my honest appreciation of some of your views. Apologies if it's blunt,  but better being honest with you.
Basically I find most pro-Brexit views, generally speaking, pretty repulsive. Why ? Simply because it's a endeavour that harms and hurts people I know and care about.

Post edited at 17:07
2
 Ian W 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> Many voters think more should be spent, more taxes paid etc.. only by other people, not them. That's why the UK has had decades of falling taxes for everyone and declining services. 


Absolutely. its always for someone else to sort.

1
 Ian W 14 Jul 2020
In reply to thomasadixon:

> Control of law making.  You might not give a shit about it, or see it as a benefit, but you should have been able to get it through your head by now that lots of people do.

> It’s not difficult at all, why you find it so hard I don’t know.


And therein lies the problem; this is something that leaving the EU will not solve, as it is simply not true. There have been articles on it all over the internet, so approx numbers here; the fact is that there have been >16,000 laws implemented since we joined the EU of which less than 50 have had to be accepted against our will; the vast majority of these being concerned with reducing money laundering / financial crimes / offshoring / tax avoidance etc.

The perception is that the EU imposes laws on us; this is not, and has never been true. Politicians lies, and a supportive press that stand to gain from it have left a large proportion of the population with this perception. Note also that it appears that the perception of the same press is that they are now anti-government........

1
 jkarran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to WaterMonkey:

> Erm, have you seen the laws we've been making over the last 4 months despite still being in the EU?

Strictly we're not in the EU, we left, not that It'd have hampered us, look at what member states also did independently.

Jk

 jkarran 14 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> If the UK population is so heavily taxed, where is it going? It's not going on public service, infrastructure etc. 

Good question. Are you sure about that? 

Jk

 GrahamD 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Trevers:

> And this is deliberately so, because the goals of Brexit for the super-rich elite who forced it upon us are diametrically opposed to the hoped for goals of those they tricked into voting for it.

From this post, I would draw the conclusion that the very rich are very rich because they are considerably brighter than everyone else.  Or were you trying to make a different point ?

 Trevers 14 Jul 2020
In reply to GrahamD:

> From this post, I would draw the conclusion that the very rich are very rich because they are considerably brighter than everyone else.  Or were you trying to make a different point ?

I'm not sure how you inferred that from my post. Despite access to the best educations money can buy, I see no evidence that the super rich (of the Tory boys club inherited wealth variety) are in general particularly bright. Though they do seem to have a talent for convincing the very stupid otherwise, Rees-Mogg being a prime example.

The point I was making was that the point of Brexit (deregulation, aligning our economy with the US etc.) will increase the wealth and power of the already wealthy and powerful, while bringing about absolutely none of the advertised benefits for the average person who voted leave.

3
 wercat 14 Jul 2020
In reply to Alyson30:

> I find it quite repulsive if I’m honnest.

too much of a coincidence - the pseudonymn has political connotations

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Dixon_Jr.

beware political agents

Post edited at 22:34
1
 summo 15 Jul 2020
In reply to jkarran:

> If the UK population is so heavily taxed, where is it going? It's not going on public service, infrastructure etc. 

> Good question. Are you sure about that? 

No. But I don't see any evidence of it. Nhs is one of the lowest fund health services in Europe per capita, UK schools appear to be lacking the tech than many countries enjoy (individual IT etc) and have large cramped classes, UK road and rail network over crowded, 4g 5g fibre is behind many countries, state mental health and social services are some what stretched... I appreciate any one country couldn't be ahead with all services, but it feels like the UK is behind with everything. 

If as the other poster claimed that the UK tax take is high, where is it going? To me it feels like UK tax is low, £12k base threshold then 20%, but all the extra money in take home pay is eaten up by expensive rent and mortgages, if the UK built more decent houses, everywhere, prices would eventually fall relatively. More disposable income for the government to tax and for consumers to spend, simplistic I know but you get my drift. 

Or even adding to the above would be the uk's childcare system which is not exactly user friendly, fit for purpose or cheap enough to enable many folk to get out to work. 

1
Alyson30 15 Jul 2020
In reply to summo:

> No. But I don't see any evidence of it. Nhs is one of the lowest fund health services in Europe per capita, UK schools appear to be lacking the tech than many countries enjoy (individual IT etc) and have large cramped classes, UK road and rail network over crowded, 4g 5g fibre is behind many countries, state mental health and social services are some what stretched... I appreciate any one country couldn't be ahead with all services, but it feels like the UK is behind with everything. 

 

You moan about services being shit but then you want us to spend billions doing stupid brexit.

5
 AdJS 15 Jul 2020
In reply to balmybaldwin:

> I would also argue that Brexit is part of the reason we have had such a slow and badly managed response to Covid - the government haven't been governing for the last 4 years, they've been playing with their pet project at the neglect of everything else

Hit the nail on the head. Absolutely this. 

1
In reply to summo:

It seems to me quite obvious that our taxes are too low/dangerously inadequate (compared with some of the more intelligent countries in Europe) to support the NHS, an increasing number of pensioners, and necessary improvements to our infrastructure (not to mention regional aid once supplied by the EU). Massively compounded, of course, by  the total, unnecessary folly of a no-deal Brexit.

These are completely crazy times, foisted on us by an incompetant  charlatan of a Prime Minister, and his crazy, extremist government; supported by a loony, selfish, dimwitted minority of the electorate.

That's my early morning rant out of the way. Now back to work.

3
 Ian W 15 Jul 2020
In reply to jkarran: and Summo:

don't forget corporation tax and indirect taxes; paye / NI isn't the governments only form of income.......UK corp tax rates are very much on the low side..........

Post edited at 08:40
 Andy Hardy 15 Jul 2020
In reply to wercat:

> too much of a coincidence - the pseudonymn has political connotations

> beware political agents

That is borderline aluminium millinery. Thomas and Dixson are hardly uncommon names in the UK.

 wercat 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

indeed, but since the 1970s at a fairly young age I've been constantly aware that in the field of electronic communications identity, origin and intent is not always what it seems.  We have progressed to to time where nothing electronic can be taken at face value

ps do you mean Boon and Lane?

Post edited at 09:19
 Rob Exile Ward 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Gordon Stainforth:

'foisted on us by an incompetent  charlatan of a Prime Minister...'

And one who appears to have gone into hiding. For someone who so obviously likes the sound of his own voice he is being extraordinarily quiet. Anyone able to shed any light on this?

1
 Doug 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Have you looked in your fridge recently?

1
 jkarran 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

Unpopular stuff happening, PM vanishes. Grandiose bullshit and largesse, PM reappears. Repeat.

Jk

1
baron 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> 'foisted on us by an incompetent  charlatan of a Prime Minister...'

> And one who appears to have gone into hiding. For someone who so obviously likes the sound of his own voice he is being extraordinarily quiet. Anyone able to shed any light on this?

I believe that today(or at least part of it) he is hiding in the House of Commons.

1
 Alkis 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Andy Hardy:

Plus that is his actual name anyway.

 wercat 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Alkis:

ha, reincarnation and working for powers unseen

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> 'foisted on us by an incompetent  charlatan of a Prime Minister...'

> And one who appears to have gone into hiding. For someone who so obviously likes the sound of his own voice he is being extraordinarily quiet. Anyone able to shed any light on this?

It's almost as if he knows how bad he is at his job, so takes as much time off as possible. He doesn't even seem to know what his job is. As PM, his absences and low key approach at a time of crisis are completely unacceptable. (Cn. with Mrs. Thathcher, for example.)

1
 Toerag 15 Jul 2020
In reply to freeflyer:

>  For low-skilled jobs they will allocate sector-specific rules-based quotas to individual industries, for example the Seasonal Agricultural Workers' scheme.

> The key political element of these new arrangements is that visas will be time-limited, and the workers will not be allowed to settle in the UK.

> It's licensed slavery. Why would you want to come and work in the UK for low pay with no job security?

Actually it's pretty much what we had here in Guernsey - low-end workers could come in on a 9 month license to work in hotels, restaurants, supermarkets, greenhouses etc.  Many would come from Madeira and Latvia, work 2 jobs and live in poor accommodation for 6-9 months then go back home and live like kings for the rest of the year before returning the following year.  A Latvian housewife could earn enough here picking flowers and stacking shelves for 6 months to more than support her whole family for a year.  Even educated people such as doctors earnt more doing minimum wage jobs than being a doctor in Latvia.  They weren't allowed to settle (unless they entered a relationship with a local), but they'd be back year after year.  The only difference is that their license wasn't tied to one employer so they weren't quite so exploitable.  Now the rules says they can stay longer than 9 months, but they can only stay a maximum of 5 years and still can't gain the 'right to remain' as such.

 freeflyer 15 Jul 2020
In reply to Toerag:

Fair enough. I guess I'm in mourning for freedom of movement

 Stone Idle 16 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

You bunch of pussies. You ignore the benefits, paraded for years now, and focus on a spot of minor inconvenience. Get a grip.

8
 jkarran 16 Jul 2020
In reply to Stone Idle:

> You bunch of pussies. You ignore the benefits, paraded for years now, and focus on a spot of minor inconvenience. Get a grip.

Poe strikes again.

Jk

 JohnBson 17 Jul 2020
In reply to Bob Kemp:

My mate set up an Eori and implemented the processes needed in a medium sized company selling car parts. Said it was a piece of piss and a halfwit could do it. Easier than applying for a passport apparently. 

1
 Rob Exile Ward 17 Jul 2020
In reply to Stone Idle:

Well you say that, just some of us are waiting to se a single one. 

 Doug 17 Jul 2020
In reply to Stone Idle:

> You bunch of pussies. You ignore the benefits, paraded for years now, and focus on a spot of minor inconvenience. Get a grip.


remind me, what are the benefits ?

 Andy Hardy 17 Jul 2020
In reply to JohnBson:

> My mate set up an Eori and implemented the processes needed in a medium sized company selling car parts. Said it was a piece of piss and a halfwit could do it. Easier than applying for a passport apparently. 

Which he totally did not need to do prior to brexit. How is additional "Red Tape" any sort of benefit?

 Andy Hardy 17 Jul 2020
In reply to Stone Idle:

Well we'll see the benefits (such as they may be) in January, when the first trucks try out Farage's Garage in Ashford and we have to fill out millions of customs declarations (I love filling out carnets for working in the EU, I've really missed them). I can't wait, oh hang on I'll be in the slow lane at passport control so perhaps I'll have to.

Still we've taken back control 😶

2
 Trevers 17 Jul 2020
In reply to Stone Idle:

> You bunch of pussies. You ignore the benefits, paraded for years now, and focus on a spot of minor inconvenience. Get a grip.

We keep hearing that it'll bring exciting new opportunities. We never hear what they are though.

Perhaps the old-fashioned 60s seaside towns will see something of a revival, now that holidaying abroad will be more expensive and convoluted? And I suppose if you were looking to become a customs official, it's looking great.

Other than that? Well I suppose if you were a head fund manager and wanted to make some quick gains on a volatile market or a weak currency... Or if you were a rich and well-connected politician who wanted to help your rich and well-connected friends asset strip the country's institutions... Or if you were generally wealthy, powerful and unscrupulous and wanted to coalesce more wealth and power to yourself...

1
OP Bob Kemp 17 Jul 2020
In reply to JohnBson:

> My mate set up an Eori and implemented the processes needed in a medium sized company selling car parts. Said it was a piece of piss and a halfwit could do it. Easier than applying for a passport apparently. 

That's good. Just this to worry about now:

https://www.ft.com/content/fbc6f191-6d69-4dcb-b374-0fa6e48a9a1e

"British business faces £7bn red tape bill under Brexit border plan

Government’s ‘new start’ will generate 215m customs declarations a year and need 50,000 extra customs agents"


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