Brexit Deal

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 veteye 23 Dec 2020

Is it a win win situation?

 EddInaBox 23 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

No, we have already lost, and to a lesser degree so have the rest of Europe.  The question now is just how badly?

In reply to veteye:

Very interested in the detail of this, particularly around Financial Services equivalence. 

In a less serious vein you think Boris swapped Fish for vaccines?

 baron 23 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

> Is it a win win situation?

As the BBC stated on the 10.30 news that talks are still ongoing we might be jumping the gun here.

In reply to veteye:

It was on the ITV news at 10pm

 Ian W 23 Dec 2020
In reply to baron:

Indeed; they did say there would be an announcement in the next couple of hours, but no detail about whether it has all been agreed, or whether its just that an agreement in principle has been reached. Also it has to be ratified by all 28 parliaments, which I suspect is by no means guaranteed; we have the no deal idiots to dela with over here, and there is probably a tough sell ahead for Macron at least......

In reply to veteye:

> Is it a win win situation?

As in, a bit better than no deal for both sides?

I f*cking hope so!

As in, 1% as good as remaining in the EU and operating effectively in a globalised economy in a powerful trading bloc with common standards and countless other cooperative initiatives in science, enivironmentalism, human rights, etc? Excuse me while I clean up the piss and wash my trousers.

In reply to veteye:

BBC five live, Leeds Utd fan before the Man Utd game;  ‘This is a must not loose game’. Quote of the decade*, and applied to us before recent negotiations. 
*well, perhaps last week. 

Just waiting for the ERG nutters to savage the proposal and see how Johnson squirms. 

Further ahead, I wonder what the ERG will try to savage next. 

 veteye 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

I realised afterwards, that their announcement was premature....

In reply to veteye:

It sounds like a deal in principle has been agreed with all remaining sticking points addressed. I guess nothing is legally binding until it has been ratified by both parliaments. You’d like to think that if it gets passed by WM then it would be difficult for the EU not to also. 
But the positive aspect is that there finally something signable. As for the detail....

 Doug 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

So some 12 hours after an annoucement was imminent it seems they are still arguing about fish...

In reply to Doug:

> So some 12 hours after an annoucement was imminent it seems they are still arguing about fish...

Its important that we end up at the right Plaice!

 veteye 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Not bad for a vet, but maybe you studied in Stirling?

:-}

 Ian W 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

> It sounds like a deal in principle has been agreed with all remaining sticking points addressed. I guess nothing is legally binding until it has been ratified by both parliaments. You’d like to think that if it gets passed by WM then it would be difficult for the EU not to also. 

You would think so; however it was WM that scuppered the last one (well, the ERG.....)

> But the positive aspect is that there finally something signable. As for the detail....

Dont worry, the Chair of the ERG, Mark Francois will 

"scrutinise it in detail, to ensure that its provisions genuinely protect the sovereignty of the United Kingdom".

so thats ok then.

(Quote pulled from beeb website this morning.

).

In reply to veteye:

No, I always preferred Fire Brigade to Shoal Health.

In reply to veteye:

more likely to be lose a lot vs lose a little... still nothing announced tho and no detail

In reply to Dr.S at work:

Getting paid to sleep...you can't beat it.

 David Riley 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Doug:

> So some 12 hours after an annoucement was imminent it seems they are still arguing about fish...

More likely about immediate cash.

In reply to Shaun mcmurrough:

“Fire Brigade” has a specific veterinary context that often involves not sleeping but having lots of fun*

*often type 2

In reply to Doug:

Bloody fish!!!! I’m sure if you looked into it then you could find one company that is more important to the U.K. economy than all the effing fish. 
 

the price of a fish supper eh!

In reply to Ian W:

Mr Francois. It’s a shame he’s back out of his shed or where ever he was hiding. Shame we can decommission him on air pollution standards. 

 Ian W 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

nissan export to the EU the total value of our fishing industry approx every 4 months........

In reply to veteye:

> Brexit Deal

This isn't a Brexit Deal, Brexit is long done. This is a trade deal with our closest neighbours, not sure the two should really be considered linked. 

 deepsoup 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

> Bloody fish!!!! I’m sure if you looked into it then you could find one company that is more important to the U.K. economy than all the effing fish. 

More than one.  I think it's about equivalent to Harrods, or half of Games Workshop.

 deepsoup 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

> Mr Francois. It’s a shame he’s back out of his shed or where ever he was hiding.

He dropped off the radar when a tory MP and former minister in his 50s, who can not be named for legal reasons, was arrested on rape charges and, astonishingly, was not suspended from the party but did agree not to appear in the House of Commons while he's on bail.  Complete coincidence I'm sure.

In reply to Dr.S at work:

I've was never very good at fishing.

I've just had a discussion with my Fire Service colleague on type 2 fun,what worries me is that he said I was type 1 or 3,never type 2....

 Alyson 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

> Bloody fish!!!! I’m sure if you looked into it then you could find one company that is more important to the U.K. economy than all the effing fish. 

> the price of a fish supper eh!

Interestingly, I read yesterday that if you watch bbc world service instead of the uk bbc news you get an entirely different report into what the sticking points are. Fish doesn't even get a mention. Of course here it has formed part of the anti-EU rhetoric for decades so there's a need to make it seem more important than it really is. The fact that we mostly don't eat the fish we catch but rely heavily on exporting it - often live - to Europe is somewhat ironic.

 Andy Farnell 24 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

It's a lose-lose deal.

The only good deal was remaining in the EU. Everything else is worse.

Andy F

 kevin stephens 24 Dec 2020
In reply to kevin stephens:

And so it begins. The long hard road to rejoin. Sadly I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime.

 Doug 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Alyson:

according to Le Monde & France Inter its down to fish, seems they worked on out of date figures & are needing to recalulate something.

Alternatively its all a show

edit to add - seems a deal has been annouced while I was typing

Post edited at 15:35
 Jmacquarrie 24 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

Lot being made of zero tariff trade by the government but if that's on goods and not services then that is going to be bad for the UK, we export far more services than goods to the EU.

Personally I don't think losing my right to move freely and work in so many other countries is a win however you spin it.

 Duncan Bourne 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Doug:

I'm waiting to see what it actually is. Lots of fanfare at the moment but has anyone read the small print?

 Jmacquarrie 24 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

And I see the UK government decided they didn't want to be part of ERASMUS anymore, wonderful, just f@£king wonderful.

 George Ormerod 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

Cue vomit inducing triumphalism from the UK Government. Followed by gradual realization of the shitness of the trade deal next year. 

 jimtitt 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I'm waiting to see what it actually is. Lots of fanfare at the moment but has anyone read the small print?


Your kidding right? It's 2,000 pages long and has yet to be translated and read by the governments of the EU (and the UK) and the EU parliament, then voted on by them all.

 Ian W 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

i suppose in the spirit of good cheer, just the exchange rate movement since 2016 has cost you approx 4p for every litre of fuel you have bought (and an extra 10% plus on anything else traded in dollars), and an extra 10 - 12% on everything you have spent if you have travelled in the EU  over the last 4.5 years.......

Good, innit?

 Cobra_Head 24 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

> Is it a win win situation?


I doubt it. I've not seen the details but I suspect it's a lose lose.

 Cobra_Head 24 Dec 2020
In reply to SFM:

> Bloody fish!!!! I’m sure if you looked into it then you could find one company that is more important to the U.K. economy than all the effing fish. 

> the price of a fish supper eh!


Windows and doors are worth more than the fishing industry, windows and doors!!

In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I doubt the UK will ever rejoin the EU in its current form. Too much trouble for any government here and an understandable high degree of mistrust from the EU member states to consider re-admitttance if a formerly troublesome ex-member.

The EU will change in the coming decades, whether this results in lasting further integration or the reverse waits to be seen. The UK - EU relationship will change accordingly.

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Yes I think you're probably right. The lunatic minority have won.

 Duncan Bourne 24 Dec 2020
In reply to jimtitt:

I was kind of hoping that Boris had read the small print before signing but I suppose that is too much to ask

In reply to Duncan Bourne:

We know the Clown doesn't do details!

 Jmacquarrie 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Ian W:

Seems like we've lost frictionless trade in services.

So the EU export more goods to the UK than services, and they'll continue to be tariff free.

The UK exports a lot more services than goods to the EU, and they'll be restricted / subject to tariffs.

And this is a win for the UK somehow according to our useless government.

Post edited at 17:36
In reply to Duncan Bourne:

> I was kind of hoping that Boris had read the small print before signing but I suppose that is too much to ask

I'm assuming that neither Johnson or his EU counterparts have read it in any fine detail and that the real negotiations have been done in the background by a team of people (UK & EU) that actually know every single nuance and implication of what is being agreed upon.
 

 wbo2 24 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye: I believe equivalence in professional qualifications is gone as well.  

 DT 24 Dec 2020
In reply to George Ormerod:

Chapeau! Reading the agreement so quickly. I'm glad someone's on hand to help with this stuff. Its all very complicated, isn't it?

An uncharitable observer might say you're hoping for the deal not to work. Were that true I doubt you'd be alone. Perhaps there's even a sizable tranche of Remainers who are struggling with some cognitive dissonance.

 Ian W 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Jmacquarrie:

> Seems like we've lost frictionless trade in services.

> So the EU export more goods to the UK than services, and they'll continue to be tariff free.

> The UK exports a lot more services than goods to the EU, and they'll be restricted / subject to tariffs.

> And this is a win for the UK somehow according to our useless government.


As well as all the financial services firms that have upped sticks to Amsterdam / paris / Frankfurt......

 Philb1950 24 Dec 2020
In reply to DT:

As evidenced by the dislikes

In reply to DT:

'An uncharitable observer might say you're hoping for the deal not to work.' It already hasn't, you donkey. Without free movement - Erasmus - tariff free services - passporting and God knows what else we are already immeasurably poorer than we would have been by staying in. And not just in financial terms - only a Brexiter could think that was so important. We are bequeathing our children and grandchildren citizenship of a second rate and declining power. Ah well it was a good run, shame it had to be my generation that ushered in its demise..

 Ian W 24 Dec 2020
In reply to DT:

Nobody wants the deal not to work, however there is disappointment that this is the best we can expect, a demonstrable degradation of our economic and social position.

 George Ormerod 24 Dec 2020
In reply to DT:

I bet I've scrutinized it as much as Boris has.  

 Toccata 24 Dec 2020
In reply to George Ormerod:

It is beyond belief Boris declares tariff-free trade with the EU when the deal is nothing of the sort. Truth has never really mattered to this Government when it comes to headlines.

 mondite 24 Dec 2020
In reply to DT:

> An uncharitable observer might say you're hoping for the deal not to work. Were that true I doubt you'd be alone.

Well yes there will be plenty of brexiteers cursing about it. I mean just think about the fishing industry!

Now the brexiteer disaster capitalists who would be quids in and any lesser brexiteer idiot might regret not having no deal but I cant see why remainers will dislike it.

Its just that it will be just a bit surprising if it is better than we had. If Johnson has achieved that then I will be impressed but I somewhat doubt it.

 mondite 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Toccata:

> It is beyond belief Boris declares tariff-free trade with the EU when the deal is nothing of the sort. Truth has never really mattered to this Government when it comes to headlines.

Just headlines?

In reply to DT:

> Perhaps there's even a sizable tranche of Remainers who are struggling with some cognitive dissonance.

What cognitive dissonance?

I will spin on a f*cking dime and rejoice when the deal makes us richer than we would be in the EU, rather than just causing disruption and making us poorer. Show us the benefits. Of course this is better than no deal. I want to see how it's better than EU membership.

Show me what you mean by cognitive dissonance, or alternatively, maybe just shut up?

In reply to Jon Stewart:

I think it's the brexiteers who are suffering from cognitive dissonance. Unless their goal was the diminution of the UK. 

 Alyson30 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

> I doubt the UK will ever rejoin the EU in its current form.

By UK you mean, England.

Post edited at 21:01
 DT 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

> 'An uncharitable observer might say you're hoping for the deal not to work.' It already hasn't, you donkey

Well, I'm tempted just to let that go but simply as a civic duty one shouldn't let even casual insults pass. Let me just say this: you seem to have regressed within the grieving process back to 3. Anger/bargaining. Stage 7 (acceptance) will feel, and probably be, some distance. Alas, between now and then things will change, hopes will rise and fall.

 DT 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Jon Stewart:

> Show me what you mean by cognitive dissonance, or alternatively, maybe just shut up?

I don't think you're in a particularly receptive frame of mind to engage. If you toned down your boorish, macho aggression it might help. 

In reply to DT:

> Well, I'm tempted just to let that go but simply as a civic duty

I hardly think, after helping wreck the livelihoods of millions of people, you're in a position to talk about "civic duty".

In reply to DT:

Either you can answer the arguments, or you cannot.

If I stroke your hair, and whisper in your ear, will that help?

 65 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Ian W:

> Nobody wants the deal not to work, however there is disappointment that this is the best we can expect, a demonstrable degradation of our economic and social position.

There are likely many who want the deal not to work*. Short of civil war, the worse the effects of Brexit the greater the threat to Johnson's iteration of The Conservative Party and the credibility of the Farage project, plus the increased probability of Scotland gaining independence.  

*Leaving aside what one means by 'work,' as anything which makes us less secure both economically and strategically, aggravates and entrenches division here and diminishes us abroad while massively truncating the opportunities of the overwhelmingly pro-EU young cannot in my view be reasonably described as something which works. 

 Andy Farnell 24 Dec 2020
In reply to DT:

Brexit is the opposite of hope.

Andy F

 Alyson30 24 Dec 2020
In reply to DT:

> Well, I'm tempted just to let that go but simply as a civic duty one shouldn't let even casual insults pass. Let me just say this: you seem to have regressed within the grieving process back to 3. Anger/bargaining. Stage 7 (acceptance) will feel, and probably be, some distance. Alas, between now and then things will change, hopes will rise and fall.

If someone came into your house every other day to smash everything you hold dear, would you just “accept it” ?

Its been the same with Brexit. It was not enough for brexiteers to just leave the EU, in the years that ensued  they sought to destroy every compromise possible,  go for the hardest brexit tolerable, and hurt people who cared about their European identity and citizenship as much as they could, at every opportunity and every turn. 

You want remainers to “get on with it “ ?maybe the brexiteers should stop going out of their way to hurt them again and again. 
 

Unfortunately, fat chance of that. Brexit isn’t done, the hard part starts only now.

Post edited at 22:19
In reply to Alyson30:

> By UK you mean, England.

If the UK breaks up and one or more parts of it rejoin the EU then I would still be correct in saying that the UK hadn't rejoined.

 Alyson30 24 Dec 2020
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Sure thing.

 Ian W 24 Dec 2020
In reply to 65:

> There are likely many who want the deal not to work*. Short of civil war, the worse the effects of Brexit the greater the threat to Johnson's iteration of The Conservative Party and the credibility of the Farage project, plus the increased probability of Scotland gaining independence.  

> *Leaving aside what one means by 'work,' as anything which makes us less secure both economically and strategically, aggravates and entrenches division here and diminishes us abroad while massively truncating the opportunities of the overwhelmingly pro-EU young cannot in my view be reasonably described as something which works. 


Yes, trying to define "work" in this context is a very deep rabbit hole to go down. I suppose it means strip a balance between allowing us a tolerable chance to grow asan economy and a society whilst allowing those who wanted out , out out to believe we are really independent.

 veteye 25 Dec 2020
In reply to Cobra_Head:

> Windows and doors are worth more than the fishing industry, windows and doors!!

I think that I heard on the radio that it is worth 0.12% of GDP.(?)

In reply to Jon Stewart:

A pithy summary here of Johnson's Brexit deal. Arguably not quite as informative as Johnson's speech, but nearly so. 

https://twitter.com/Longshanks1307/status/1342030521438765058?s=20

In reply to Alyson30:

> You want remainers to “get on with it “ ?maybe the brexiteers should stop going out of their way to hurt them again and again. 

This "get on with it" mantra is really farcical, isn't it? As if most hard working people won't be working as hard as ever to make their lives and businesses work (i.e. to work with the rest of the world and the EU alike.) But I don't see what anyone can do to 'get on with Brexit' itself. What on earth are we meant to be doing differently? Do they mean we should be trying as hard as we can to make a bad situation worse? Make the bomb crater bigger? If we try to fill it in, surely that would be the opposite of getting on with Brexit, and going against it in principle? It's as bad as that ludicrous expression 'making a success of Brexit'. My driving record was atrocious, in that I 'successfully' wrote off five cars and nearly killed myself. But I'm not proud of it at all and never again want to do anything to further those 'successes'. I decided not to 'get on with' that.

Post edited at 02:00
In reply to Kalna_kaza:

> If the UK breaks up and one or more parts of it rejoin the EU then I would still be correct in saying that the UK hadn't rejoined.

If the UK breaks up, then, presumably, by definition, the UK would cease to exist.

 Cobra_Head 25 Dec 2020
In reply to veteye:

> I think that I heard on the radio that it is worth 0.12% of GDP.(?)


Sadly, in may people's eyes this was a major industry (including mine at first) which we could rebuild, if only it wasn't for the EU.

With gaining knowledge I realise neither of these were true. British fishermen sold off their licenses a long time ago, it's not a major industry, and we were told a basket full of lies.

I notice Boris' lack of any detail, only how great a deal it is and how great he is for getting it done, I've heard it's practically the same as May's deal from a couple of centuries (it seems like at least) ago.

Time will tell, but I'm not holding anything, in anticipation.

Post edited at 16:30

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