UKH

Is it a win win situation?

No, we have already lost, and to a lesser degree so have the rest of Europe.  The question now is just how badly?

Very interested in the detail of this, particularly around Financial Services equivalence. 

In a less serious vein you think Boris swapped Fish for vaccines?

As the BBC stated on the 10.30 news that talks are still ongoing we might be jumping the gun here.

It was on the ITV news at 10pm

Indeed; they did say there would be an announcement in the next couple of hours, but no detail about whether it has all been agreed, or whether its just that an agreement in principle has been reached. Also it has to be ratified by all 28 parliaments, which I suspect is by no means guaranteed; we have the no deal idiots to dela with over here, and there is probably a tough sell ahead for Macron at least......

As in, a bit better than no deal for both sides?

I f*cking hope so!

As in, 1% as good as remaining in the EU and operating effectively in a globalised economy in a powerful trading bloc with common standards and countless other cooperative initiatives in science, enivironmentalism, human rights, etc? Excuse me while I clean up the piss and wash my trousers.

BBC five live, Leeds Utd fan before the Man Utd game;  ‘This is a must not loose game’. Quote of the decade*, and applied to us before recent negotiations. 
*well, perhaps last week. 

Just waiting for the ERG nutters to savage the proposal and see how Johnson squirms. 

Further ahead, I wonder what the ERG will try to savage next. 

I realised afterwards, that their announcement was premature....

It sounds like a deal in principle has been agreed with all remaining sticking points addressed. I guess nothing is legally binding until it has been ratified by both parliaments. You’d like to think that if it gets passed by WM then it would be difficult for the EU not to also. 
But the positive aspect is that there finally something signable. As for the detail....

So some 12 hours after an annoucement was imminent it seems they are still arguing about fish...

Its important that we end up at the right Plaice!

Not bad for a vet, but maybe you studied in Stirling?

:-}

You would think so; however it was WM that scuppered the last one (well, the ERG.....)

Dont worry, the Chair of the ERG, Mark Francois will 

"scrutinise it in detail, to ensure that its provisions genuinely protect the sovereignty of the United Kingdom".

so thats ok then.

(Quote pulled from beeb website this morning.

).

No, I always preferred Fire Brigade to Shoal Health.

more likely to be lose a lot vs lose a little... still nothing announced tho and no detail

Getting paid to sleep...you can't beat it.

More likely about immediate cash.

“Fire Brigade” has a specific veterinary context that often involves not sleeping but having lots of fun*

*often type 2

Bloody fish!!!! I’m sure if you looked into it then you could find one company that is more important to the U.K. economy than all the effing fish. 
 

the price of a fish supper eh!

Mr Francois. It’s a shame he’s back out of his shed or where ever he was hiding. Shame we can decommission him on air pollution standards. 

nissan export to the EU the total value of our fishing industry approx every 4 months........

More than one.  I think it's about equivalent to Harrods, or half of Games Workshop.

He dropped off the radar when a tory MP and former minister in his 50s, who can not be named for legal reasons, was arrested on rape charges and, astonishingly, was not suspended from the party but did agree not to appear in the House of Commons while he's on bail.  Complete coincidence I'm sure.

I've was never very good at fishing.

I've just had a discussion with my Fire Service colleague on type 2 fun,what worries me is that he said I was type 1 or 3,never type 2....

Interestingly, I read yesterday that if you watch bbc world service instead of the uk bbc news you get an entirely different report into what the sticking points are. Fish doesn't even get a mention. Of course here it has formed part of the anti-EU rhetoric for decades so there's a need to make it seem more important than it really is. The fact that we mostly don't eat the fish we catch but rely heavily on exporting it - often live - to Europe is somewhat ironic.

It's a lose-lose deal.

The only good deal was remaining in the EU. Everything else is worse.

Andy F

As predicted

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/new_brexit_deal-727771?v=1#x933...

And so it begins. The long hard road to rejoin. Sadly I don't think it'll happen in my lifetime.

according to Le Monde & France Inter its down to fish, seems they worked on out of date figures & are needing to recalulate something.

Alternatively its all a show

edit to add - seems a deal has been annouced while I was typing

Lot being made of zero tariff trade by the government but if that's on goods and not services then that is going to be bad for the UK, we export far more services than goods to the EU.

Personally I don't think losing my right to move freely and work in so many other countries is a win however you spin it.

I'm waiting to see what it actually is. Lots of fanfare at the moment but has anyone read the small print?

And I see the UK government decided they didn't want to be part of ERASMUS anymore, wonderful, just f@£king wonderful.

Cue vomit inducing triumphalism from the UK Government. Followed by gradual realization of the shitness of the trade deal next year. 

Your kidding right? It's 2,000 pages long and has yet to be translated and read by the governments of the EU (and the UK) and the EU parliament, then voted on by them all.

i suppose in the spirit of good cheer, just the exchange rate movement since 2016 has cost you approx 4p for every litre of fuel you have bought (and an extra 10% plus on anything else traded in dollars), and an extra 10 - 12% on everything you have spent if you have travelled in the EU  over the last 4.5 years.......

Good, innit?

I doubt it. I've not seen the details but I suspect it's a lose lose.

Windows and doors are worth more than the fishing industry, windows and doors!!

I doubt the UK will ever rejoin the EU in its current form. Too much trouble for any government here and an understandable high degree of mistrust from the EU member states to consider re-admitttance if a formerly troublesome ex-member.

The EU will change in the coming decades, whether this results in lasting further integration or the reverse waits to be seen. The UK - EU relationship will change accordingly.

Yes I think you're probably right. The lunatic minority have won.

I was kind of hoping that Boris had read the small print before signing but I suppose that is too much to ask

We know the Clown doesn't do details!

Seems like we've lost frictionless trade in services.

So the EU export more goods to the UK than services, and they'll continue to be tariff free.

The UK exports a lot more services than goods to the EU, and they'll be restricted / subject to tariffs.

And this is a win for the UK somehow according to our useless government.

I'm assuming that neither Johnson or his EU counterparts have read it in any fine detail and that the real negotiations have been done in the background by a team of people (UK & EU) that actually know every single nuance and implication of what is being agreed upon.
 

Chapeau! Reading the agreement so quickly. I'm glad someone's on hand to help with this stuff. Its all very complicated, isn't it?

An uncharitable observer might say you're hoping for the deal not to work. Were that true I doubt you'd be alone. Perhaps there's even a sizable tranche of Remainers who are struggling with some cognitive dissonance.

As well as all the financial services firms that have upped sticks to Amsterdam / paris / Frankfurt......

As evidenced by the dislikes

'An uncharitable observer might say you're hoping for the deal not to work.' It already hasn't, you donkey. Without free movement - Erasmus - tariff free services - passporting and God knows what else we are already immeasurably poorer than we would have been by staying in. And not just in financial terms - only a Brexiter could think that was so important. We are bequeathing our children and grandchildren citizenship of a second rate and declining power. Ah well it was a good run, shame it had to be my generation that ushered in its demise..

Nobody wants the deal not to work, however there is disappointment that this is the best we can expect, a demonstrable degradation of our economic and social position.

I bet I've scrutinized it as much as Boris has.  

It is beyond belief Boris declares tariff-free trade with the EU when the deal is nothing of the sort. Truth has never really mattered to this Government when it comes to headlines.

Well yes there will be plenty of brexiteers cursing about it. I mean just think about the fishing industry!

Now the brexiteer disaster capitalists who would be quids in and any lesser brexiteer idiot might regret not having no deal but I cant see why remainers will dislike it.

Its just that it will be just a bit surprising if it is better than we had. If Johnson has achieved that then I will be impressed but I somewhat doubt it.

Just headlines?

What cognitive dissonance?

I will spin on a f*cking dime and rejoice when the deal makes us richer than we would be in the EU, rather than just causing disruption and making us poorer. Show us the benefits. Of course this is better than no deal. I want to see how it's better than EU membership.

Show me what you mean by cognitive dissonance, or alternatively, maybe just shut up?

I think it's the brexiteers who are suffering from cognitive dissonance. Unless their goal was the diminution of the UK. 

By UK you mean, England.

Well, I'm tempted just to let that go but simply as a civic duty one shouldn't let even casual insults pass. Let me just say this: you seem to have regressed within the grieving process back to 3. Anger/bargaining. Stage 7 (acceptance) will feel, and probably be, some distance. Alas, between now and then things will change, hopes will rise and fall.

I don't think you're in a particularly receptive frame of mind to engage. If you toned down your boorish, macho aggression it might help. 

I hardly think, after helping wreck the livelihoods of millions of people, you're in a position to talk about "civic duty".

Either you can answer the arguments, or you cannot.

If I stroke your hair, and whisper in your ear, will that help?

There are likely many who want the deal not to work*. Short of civil war, the worse the effects of Brexit the greater the threat to Johnson's iteration of The Conservative Party and the credibility of the Farage project, plus the increased probability of Scotland gaining independence.  

*Leaving aside what one means by 'work,' as anything which makes us less secure both economically and strategically, aggravates and entrenches division here and diminishes us abroad while massively truncating the opportunities of the overwhelmingly pro-EU young cannot in my view be reasonably described as something which works. 

Brexit is the opposite of hope.

Andy F

If someone came into your house every other day to smash everything you hold dear, would you just “accept it” ?

Its been the same with Brexit. It was not enough for brexiteers to just leave the EU, in the years that ensued  they sought to destroy every compromise possible,  go for the hardest brexit tolerable, and hurt people who cared about their European identity and citizenship as much as they could, at every opportunity and every turn. 

You want remainers to “get on with it “ ?maybe the brexiteers should stop going out of their way to hurt them again and again. 
 

Unfortunately, fat chance of that. Brexit isn’t done, the hard part starts only now.

If the UK breaks up and one or more parts of it rejoin the EU then I would still be correct in saying that the UK hadn't rejoined.

Sure thing.

Yes, trying to define "work" in this context is a very deep rabbit hole to go down. I suppose it means strip a balance between allowing us a tolerable chance to grow asan economy and a society whilst allowing those who wanted out , out out to believe we are really independent.

I think that I heard on the radio that it is worth 0.12% of GDP.(?)

A pithy summary here of Johnson's Brexit deal. Arguably not quite as informative as Johnson's speech, but nearly so. 

https://twitter.com/Longshanks1307/status/1342030521438765058?s=20

This "get on with it" mantra is really farcical, isn't it? As if most hard working people won't be working as hard as ever to make their lives and businesses work (i.e. to work with the rest of the world and the EU alike.) But I don't see what anyone can do to 'get on with Brexit' itself. What on earth are we meant to be doing differently? Do they mean we should be trying as hard as we can to make a bad situation worse? Make the bomb crater bigger? If we try to fill it in, surely that would be the opposite of getting on with Brexit, and going against it in principle? It's as bad as that ludicrous expression 'making a success of Brexit'. My driving record was atrocious, in that I 'successfully' wrote off five cars and nearly killed myself. But I'm not proud of it at all and never again want to do anything to further those 'successes'. I decided not to 'get on with' that.

If the UK breaks up, then, presumably, by definition, the UK would cease to exist.

Sadly, in may people's eyes this was a major industry (including mine at first) which we could rebuild, if only it wasn't for the EU.

With gaining knowledge I realise neither of these were true. British fishermen sold off their licenses a long time ago, it's not a major industry, and we were told a basket full of lies.

I notice Boris' lack of any detail, only how great a deal it is and how great he is for getting it done, I've heard it's practically the same as May's deal from a couple of centuries (it seems like at least) ago.

Time will tell, but I'm not holding anything, in anticipation.