UKH

As climbers, it can be easy to think that we are pretty separated from the current political climate. Something that I haven't seen posted here is that the Executive Director of Black Diamond is also the owner of one of two producers of tear gas and other crowd control products currently in use by police across the US. More information about this can be found here: https://docs.google.com/document/d/e/2PACX-1vRUPGN_yu3kovNZ8u8sxHz_7KJKfAgd...

There is also an Instagram page for those of you who have an account: https://www.instagram.com/boycottblackdiamond/

I think it's important that as climbers we recognise who is make our equipment, and that we dont want our money going into the pockets of people profiting off injustice.

What's wrong with tear gas? Like many things it has its place and used correctly its a good tool. 

Would you rather lethal weapons are used on people who are rioting and smashing up the place. 

I'm sure it also get used on peaceful protestors too but that's not the fault of the product its the fault of the people using it. 

Tear gas, like all chemical weapons, have been banned in warfare, so it seems very wrong that they are being used against their own civilians. The rioting is what the media is focussing on, but the vast vast majority are peaceful protestors, who don't deserve any form of weaponry being used against them.

I take your point, but...

At some point you sell something to someone knowing full well it’s going to be abused.  See the examples of European pharma refusing to sell certain drugs to the USA because they know a very small fraction of the supply will be used in lethal injections.  

The BD - Clarus discussion has rumbled on for years, I guess now that tear gas grenades made by Safariland are getting thrown at Americans (and the cynic might suggest it's really 'lots of white middle class Americans' that makes the difference) by American cops, this has come back to attention. 

Have any of BD's sponsored athletes in the UK made any statements on this?

If you boycott BD, should you also boycott DMM? I'm not sure of the corporate structure, but Helix Tactical sells all the DMM products made for the military/security forces that DMM used to sell themselves. Being based in Llanberis as well I imagine it's a spin off from DMM, even if DMM don't wholly own it. Or is this just about the tear gas?

Guilt by association through corporate structures is complicated one - how much integration does their need to be for a boycott to be a good thing? A mate who is much better versed at looking at corporate structures than I am had a look at the Clarus - BD connection. I hope he doesn't mind me repeating what he said on Facebook (even if he is the king of the 'other channel' ) "BD is part of Clarus Corp, a publicly-traded company with no dominant shareholder. The oddly named Safariland, which manufacturers tear gas amongst other products, is not part of Clarus. Instead it seems to be part of Warren Kanders' private holding company, Kanders & Company. The only strong connection between Clarus and Kanders appears to be WK's continued presence on Clarus' board. He does own some Clarus stock but is not visible on the top 10 holders list. As the 10th largest owner only owns around 1% of the company, WK's stake must be pretty small."

Clarus do however also own https://www.sierrabullets.com/ which might be a reason to boycott BD.

Should we also boycott the British government for making and selling millitary weapons and selling them around the world?

Our government make stuff far more deadly than teargas.

Funnily enough I didn't quote the end of what my friend said, but that was: "On the other hand, another division of Clarus is Sierra Bullets, which manufacturers ammunition; in my part of the world also part of the "rec-tech" sector (for rednecks to shoot empty beer cans in the woods, when not chugging full ones or crashing ATVs). If industries linked to firearms deserve boycotts, then that is a semi-viable reason to target BD, though it is might be hard to make a case that a purchase of BD gear really supports Sierra Bullets in any meaningful way."

But that's not what this protest has focused on, although the doc linked by the OP does mention that US military seems to buy some ammunition from Sierra Bullets.

When we get on to selling stuff to the military, loads more outdoor companies become "complicit" - even ones you normally associate with hippies - Patagonia and hipsters - Arcteryx!

I don't think the government makes anything anymore does it? Are there any nationalised industries left in the defence sector?

Bit of a stretch that one, as it's highly unlikely the US police are using something that expensive. Arcteryx (or however you spell it) make military clothing for US forces, Berghaus boots and rucsacks used to be issued by the UK, ditto Snugpak. Marigold gloves (in black) used to be part of CBRN kit, Avon (rubber not cosmetics) make gasmasks. We're going to have to do a fair bit of boycotting of the military-industrial complex.

You then have the argument of guns don't kill, people kill. Admittedly if they did not have access to those guns then those people would not be able to kill so effectively.

And what about all those people whose livelihood is entwined in the various British industries such as BAE?

Big can of worms which dwarf some climbing business with associations to teargas.

And monkeys do to! ...If they have a gun. To quote the great Mr Izzard.

Cake or death?

Hmmm.

Cake or death?

Cake please.

It makes Back Diamond and potential associations with a tear gas manufacturer seem rather straight forward.

I've been trying to avoid BD for a  while now, since I found out that they also manufacture bullets. Their stuff is (usually) great but it's not as though they are short of competitors.

I thought it was Rappers?

If you're trying to be funny you're not.

If you're being serious then you're an idiot.

But is it a rucksack designed for the military, or a rucksack that happens to be used by the military? No such ambiguity with a bullet.

Or is there? Is it a bullet only sold to defensive forces, or to aggressive ones? 

youtube.com/watch?v=ICG0MuzEYzw&

I saw them support Feeder at the Doncaster dome.... that was a weird gig.

And in response to an earlier comment, yes lets boycott the government! 

Yes I can see that point but in theory it's being sold to law enforcement and there should be checks and balances before it's used. 

Anyone how many peaceful demonstrations have been tear gassed in the USA in comparison to how many times its been used on weapon wielding rioters? 

Should we also boycott God for creating humans? 

Some do.

Apart from late or ill-judged decisions, I'm not convinced our government makes anything, unless you are counting Rishi Sunak making tea for a photo-op.

I have no answers. It all gets so labyrinthine. These days, there are so many umbrella companies with tentacles reaching far and wide that it is hard to be an ethical purchaser or investor. Most people have no idea where their pension pots are invested. How do you compare the 'damage' done by Black Diamond to the 'damage' done by eg. petro-chemical companies? 

We can try to purchase our outdoor gear from reputable sources/companies but it is hard to know what the conditions and pay are like in factories on the far side of the World. Then there is the issue of the transport to bring most outdoor kit from Asia to Europe. 

I'm not claiming any great rationality here. Chouinard and then BD seemed to embody the best possible synthesis of climbing, aesthetics, enterprise, innovation, design and craftsmanship. When they started manufacturing bullets something of the appeal died.

When did they make bullets? I'm pretty certain BD have never made bullets!?

They've missed a trick there: "Black Diamond "Stoppers" - The most effective large calibre self -- defence ammunition in the World"

Ridiculous.

If you won't be buying kit from companies or manufacturers who make kit used by law  enforcement / military then you'll probably struggle to get any gear mate.

Saw them at Glastonbury. Actually surprisingly good.

Also, Newport state of mind is a very clever creation.

youtube.com/watch?v=Dx8CZyFM4b4& 

Imagine if people found out what their bank/pension was investing all their savings into..!

As far as we can until we abolish it, yes. 

Similarly, I've tried to do a bit of research but am not fully aware of the companies structure/involvement with other companies. However, I do think it's worth noting that DMM are still only involved in producing climbing equipment that sees use in military applications, compared to a product such as tear gas which has very little ambiguity in its end means. I'm sure that no company does have a totally clean slate, but it's worth being aware of where values lie.

It's very different buying gear from a company whoes products are used by the military to buying gear from a company with links to producers of munitions. I'm sure very few, if any, company does have a completely clean name but it's worth recognising that there are lesser evils here.

So you know what other companies the owners of DMM are involved in? I think not.

I do appreciate that you're trying to raise awareness of important issues, but you're looking at a producer of climbing equipment with very tenuous links to a small outfit that produces low volumes of hunting/target shooting/home defence* ammunition. It's a bit of a stretch to call them a 'producer of munitions', they're not exactly churning out artillery shells, cluster bombs and millions of rounds for the US police.

I do think it's great that you're considering boycotting unethical companies, but I'm not convinced BD is a particularly good example.

*Probably dubious use for guns, but that's the sort of thing they buy in the US of A.

Although Black Diamond obviously don't make tear gas. It's doesn't even seem to be a company in the same corporate structure.

To be honest when I saw the thread title I thought this was going to be a Mountain Spirit thread (no offence intended to Savvas but he has form with this sort of thing)

It seems a classic example of someone having found a high profile brand with some sort of tenuous link to something “bad”, which is quite EASY to boycott considering there are alternative suppliers. 

Try boycotting all products linked to some larger umbrella like PepsiCo. Not as easy is it. 

It's not that tenuous. Warren Kanders in the Executive Chairman of Clarus, who own BD. This seems to pose two issues:

1. Clarus also own Sierra Bullets - This may be an issue for some UK people but I imagine for a lot of the US, the bullets are part of the hunting sector as this is seen as ok. Culture difference?

2. Warren Kanders himself. He's the CEO of Safariland* which make "law enforcement products" including tear gas. The public pressure on him about tear gas production last year meant that he has had to step down from his position at Whitney Museum of American Art and due to excessive use of tear gas on peaceful protesters this time round public pressure has caused Safariland to divest its tear gas business. He also has a history of knowingly selling defective products and is fully embedded in the Republican set up.

This seems a step change in difference to supplying black ropes and figure of eights to the army imho.

*what kind of a company name is that unless you are in the zoo/safari sector......

Helix Tactical and Excaliber? I've not got Fred down as a holsters, body armour, tear gas and Humvees type of guy?

If after abseiling out of a helicopter on that black rope, British soldiers kill people in Afghanistan or Iraq, is that better or worse than a sort of linked but clearly not the same company making non lethal tear gas that gets used against peaceful protesters or migrants? 

I genuinely have no idea. Looking at the Helix page yesterday they say they supply "NATO friendly" forces. If that means the Finnish or Swiss defence forces, great. But could it be the Saudis? Obviously if they supply NATO countries that includes Turkey (in Syria now, and against Turkish Kurds for a long time). I have no idea who Helix sells to, but I don't think it's that much clearly less problematic than BD-Clarus.

This discussion reminds me of those revamped recruitment adverts for the British Army that pretended it was all about “logistics” and your electronics skills with no reference to how this facilitates shooting foreigners in the face 

I used to own & run my own outdoor shop. I was specially trained in the specification & usage of Industrial rope access systems, & advised & dealt with various "groups" from MRT, Cairngorm Mountain ski area workers, Scottish School of forestry, tree surgeons, chimney installers, solar panel installers, wind turbine maintenance crews, landscapers, etc, etc. I also had 4 military bases near by so sold to their personnel.

Virtually all "sports" climbing brands make & sell industrial equipment in special all black versions which is also used by the Military in any country around the world.

So of the ones I sold include:-

Petzl

Beal

DMM

ISC

Edelrid

Maillon Rapide

Marlow

Troll

HB

Other brands whos equipment is used by military & they do military spec stuff:- 

Zamberlan

La Sportiva

Ortlieb (best black waterproof bags)

Tatonka (actually do a military brand called Tasmanian Tiger)

Maglite

Victorinox

Gerber

Snugpak

Casio (Pro-Trek & G-Shock)

Whilst we are al it how about:-

Porsche as Ferdinand Porsche designed & built Hitler's "peoples car" besides the V1 flying bomb & tanks..

Volkswagen as that has direct Hitler links what do think a VW Beetle is, but Hitler's peoples car

BMW, Mercedes, etc.

Nasa, who got the German rocket engineers..

Here is a list of all the companies who are documented to have profited from the German Holocaust.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_involved_in_the_Holocaust

How about Tate & Lyle as all thought were not around & after slavery was abolished, the industry previously built on slavery is what they made their money on.

If you look hard enough you will find most people of power & influence (no matter race/religion) have links (however remote) to despicable acts, at the time these acts might have been seen as "normal". To go around & destroy everything remotely connected is counter productive. History good bad & indifferent is all around us LEARN from it.

I was more “putting the information out there” than making judgement. It’s a complicated subject and the way companies are structured nowadays make the “easy decisions” actually pretty difficult. For example, I was very surprised when, a few years ago, I saw Patagonia had a military line. How far back do you draw the line.

Re BD, the key issue (imho) is Kanders. He isn’t a man I’d like to see profit from my purchase. However, does that mean we should throw everyone from BD in SLC under the bus because of who bought their company?

For the record, I do own BD and DMM equipment (unsurprisingly!).

Thanks for sharing this. I do totally agree with you that no company/powerful person will have a totally clean slate if you look hard enough and I'm in no way suggesting that we want to overwrite history. I think it's important that people are aware of these links that companies we use have though, so people can make more informed purchases

In answer to your question: Yes we should

I think the demarcation is probably along the lines of: is the primary use offensive? Bullets, yes. Outdoors kit in black or green, no.

If you go too far down the path of 'they're enabling abuse', then you get to the farmer who produced the food, that fed the troops, or the company that made the spanners that are used to service tanks. At some point your ethical compass is going to fail.

I think it is different to supply clothing/climbing to the military rather than bullets/tear gas.

But Black Diamond don't make either bullets or tear gas. DMM do make equipment for military and police use.

I did read that Black Diamond headtorches are used by the Israeli military (I don't know if BD makes special "tactical" versions or whether the IDF just buy them on the open market like anyone else), so may well be in the same position as DMM (and presumably lots of other firms), but it is very unfair to say BD supply bullets and tear gas, because they clearly don't. The CEO of the holding company that owns BD has another company (not part of the same group) that does or did make tear gas. There is another company within the same group as BD that makes ammunition for recreational shooting, but some specialist ammunition appears to be bought from that company by the US military. 

Those companies where the obvious ones that I remember who made military specific items or all black mil spec versions of their "civilian" items... Many others like The North Face, sell loads of the black duffels to the forces..especially when they did a olive green version years ago.

If I had to remove all items that I own, climbing or otherwise, or cars, or electronics, who have links to the holocaust, or make military items..I think I would be homeless & naked!!

You are all completely missing the point.  Who cares about tear gas and bullets?  Surely the name of the company is unacceptable whatever they make?  

I agree, but in BDs case they are part of a larger group that includes a company that makes bullets, but as far as I can ascertain doesn't supply bullets to the Police or military, (AFAIK the US military buy a small amount of sniper ammunition from Norma, another predominantly hunting/target shooting manufacturer, but not sierra bullets).

Galpinos has done some good research to show the executive chairman of the group that owns both BD and Sierra is indeed a bit of a tw*t, and is CEO of a separate company, not part of the clarus group, that did manufacture tear gas, but has now stopped doing so due to public pressure.

I still think the OP is trying too hard to find a climbing company to implicate in violence against BLM protesters in the US.

DMMs Tactical Grey Hexes are obviously only of use for beating the civilian population with. 

Did they really think we'd fall for anodising  something so clangy in a covert colour scheme?!

Looking at the state of my pension, I'm considering asking if there's a “really, really unethical” investment option available.

That brightened up my Thursday

Is this an oblique hint at promoting #BlackDiamondMatters?

They've also been making protective equipment for the NHS, of course. That might go some way to balancing the karma.

One might also argue, to the general point of 'progressive' companies selling to the military, that it's better for, say, Patagonia to supply products that have been at least somewhat ethically constructed, take the possibly-tainted money and put some of it towards their good causes, rather than have it go to line the pockets of a more corporate and less thoughtful competitor 

There is a distinction between companies (e.g. DMM and Petzl) that equip military forces and companies like Safariland that promote/enable the militarisation of police forces. Especially so when the latter manufacture weaponry. Go and visit Safariland and Defense Technology's websites...

IMO it's perfectly reasonable to believe that a country needs a well-equipped military and also that its police shouldn't be pretending they're soldiers. I would rather my money didn't go to men like Warren Kanders.

But once again, Safariland isn't Black Diamond. They're not even part of the same holding company or corporation or whatever the correct term is.

Black Diamond make some great kit, so do DMM. I've got more from DMM than BD (although my favourite ice tools are BD). What I've read about Kanders isn't great but there are plenty more rich people out there who got rich through more dubious things. I think trying that trying to say somehow BD is responsible for, or at least complicit in the militarisation of US policing, is kind of ridiculous. The militarisation of US policing is a twin dynamic resulting from "the war on terrorism" in rhetoric and mindset, and the Pentagon giving away vast amounts of excess kit after Iraq which has absolutely no business being given to civilian police departments, particularly small ones like Ferguson. The employment of many veterans of Afghanistan and Iraq doesn't seem to have helped either.

Nevertheless someone should suggest to Hazel Findlay that she should do one her Curious Climber podcasts on the issue - that would be interesting!

I didn't say BD as a company is responsible for it. However, it's undeniable that some of the money they make goes directly to Kanders, their executive chairman.

If you're fundamentally opposed to the militarisation of police, buying kit from someone else (nothing BD makes is unique!) seems an incredibly obvious choice.

Can you explain how boycotting BD will do anything against the further militarisation of the police in the US? It's not even like tear gas wasn't used plenty by police forces around the world long before anyone even used the term militarised policing. 

But OK, will your "someone else" be DMM or Petzl? With DMM/Helix making "entry" equipment like grappling hooks and ladders for police forces surely that is militarisation? Will you boycott them too? Have you checked out their ownership structures?

Just to be clear I don't think anyone needs to boycott DMM or Petzl, and I doubt boycotting BD will achieve anything. But if people do the latter it seems rather hypocritical not to apply the same due diligence and ethical standards to companies from the UK or EU.

I'm absolutely shocked at reading this topic. Is anyone actually seriously saying you should "boycott" BD/government/millitary because of CS gas use in USA?

It might produce the best returns for you? If my ethics didn't preclude me from investing, the 2 main prison companies in the US would make financial sense, but having explored the youtube channels of ex US prisoners Shaun Attwood(sp) and 'Big Herc', I'd fee like a Really Real Shit if I did do, the lack of financial incentive for the prison system in the US to stop prisoners from coming back into it is something else - they profit off each prisoner.

I think I've had my fill of their channels, but they put the covid19 lock-down measures into perspective for me. It's a rather dark world in certain ways.

Edit: Not to seem to be 'talking at you' in tone, it's more of a stream of consciousness triggered by your post.

You raise an interesting issue. I would urge you and all who are genuinely affronted by this purported connection to listen to your conscience and cease climbing.

So the cunning plan is to make BD, a company which has no role in the militarisation of the US Police, a tiny fraction of whose profits might up in the hands of Kanders, who owns less than 10% of the stock in the much larger company that owns BD and other firms, unprofitable?

I'm sure Kanders will initially be devastated, and the big company that he sits on the board of will dump BD for something more profitable, like a Taser manufacturer.

Or maybe just by other manufacturers stuff, it's not really that hard is it?

And then we can go back to buying DB, with a clear conscience, and everyone is happy, see how that works?

I disagree. As others have pointed out, ownership of companies can be complex. The only way to be sure you weren’t supporting something which you couldn’t reconcile with your conscience would be to cease climbing. They won’t of course. They’d rather just preach about it until they find themselves a new topic to virtue-signal.

Assuming BD is still in existence after it's profits have collapsed. See how that works?

Ah, OK that's a bit clearer.

I'll be holding on to my walking poles then!

But there are companies that are family owned or part of a group whose efforts you can respect.

No particular feelings about BD (I just bought two second hand, unused BD camalots and BD make the best harnesses for my "wide bodied American" body shape), but in general ownership and who my money will eventually end up with is one aspect I try to keep in mind in any buying decision.

A much clearer case is my former favourite brand of chocolate: I will never again stock up on Caillet (even if they are so much better than Lindt) when travelling to Switzerland after learning* that they are owned by Nestle. Now there is a company that is properly evil...

CB

* learning as in my son reading the text on the wrapper during our February skiing trip and asking "Dad, did you know...."

I take it that is due to their (Nestle) involvement in the Holocaust?

If so I hope you are even handed & don't buy or own products by these companies either:-

Barclays Bank

Krupp (Thyssenkrupp)

Siemens

Opel

Bayer

Daimler

BASF

Deutsche Bank

Standard oil

Chase National Bank

AEG

Coca-Cola

Allianz

Audi

IBM

BMW

Hugo Boss

Mercedes Benz

Porsche

Volkswagen

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_companies_involved_in_the_Holocaust

I think people generally boycott nestle due to its marketing of baby formula in developing countries rather than its links to the holocaust but I could be wrong.

But on your general point, if your objective is to influence the behaviour of a company in order to improve something you think is wrong then there might be all sorts of reasons you’d boycott one company while still using the goods of another company. It might for instance be easier for you to eat a different type of chocolate bar not made by nestle but difficult for you not to use some industrial robot that is manufactured by Siemens. Doing one but not the other will still have some affect so what’s wrong with that?

Life is complex, people’s circumstances vary, it’s easy to think of people as hypocrites if they don’t follow your rules but they are probably following their own more complex rules.

Bit long ago, I was thinking more about breast feeding and milk formula, collaborating with various dictatorships to clear pristine rain forest for soy bean and palm oil farming, the list is endless...

CB

Didn't the CEO at one point also claim that water wasn't a human right?

That's not what they're meant for.

And Ford. 

I remember years ago being surprised by who owned the health food shop Holland and Barrett as it was the Carlyle Group.

That's an old hippy veggie love and peace style ethical shop owned by a bunch of imperialist warmongers that destroyed Iraq. I ask what the Fk is left sacred anymore! 

Since when was H&B an 'old hippy veggie love and peace style ethical shop'? They're as corporate consumerist as it gets. 

I remember in the 80s it was one of the few health food shops veggies could go to knowing their stuff was ethical to animals. 

How times have changed ...

That's why I was posting the list.....If you dig enough you will find most companies have links (however tenuous) to acts/businesses etc that you don't like, either current or past.

I makes the "lets boycott BD because the CEO also has some shares in a company that makes ammunition/tear gas" or the current "lets remove Baden Powell's statue because he read & liked Mien Kampf & met Hitler",..totally & utterly stupid as if you apply those same rules for not liking those companies/people then you WILL have to add a load more to the list of "banned/boycotted" companies.

Then you have to look at the human rights issues currently in Saudi Arabia & look at their money behind many UK brands, banks, football clubs etc...Then look at China & their human rights records...Oh you have an iPhone/iPad..oh dear!!

If you were to not be hypocritical & be even handed, by boycotting all those companies I think you'll end up naked on the street & homeless!

Yes, almost forgot that little gem...

CB

That is a bit defeatist. Simply adding ethical considerations, i.e. whether you are happy in whose hands your money is going to end up, to the criteria you use for your purchasing decisions is not much effort. Of course, sometimes you will have to buy from someone you rather would not, but at least do it consciously.

CB

I agree. Where we spend our money 'is a political decision' as one friend put it.

There's thankfully alternatives available from Japan and Taiwan in terms of electronic goods, it takes more time to seek them out than not thinking about these things does, but it's a step one can take.

There's (arguably) hypocrisy in even being a bit bothered about ethics while using oil which comes from the Saudis, but what difference is made - makes a difference in those area even if one isn't living a spotless life.

If that's what you think then carry on, no one is forcing you do do anything. If you conscience is clear then WTF? Who gives a shit?

For people who would like to maybe change things then they have the information and they can choose their options. I doubt you telling them they're virtue-signaling will alter their minds, but who knows, maybe a pithy insult will do the trick.

Just because something is complex doesn't mean it can't be done, does it.

Accusations of virtue-signalling are the shittest excuse for not having a proper response to any post. What are you trying to prove by bandying trite phrases out? It just makes you look a bit daft.

And we should feel sorry for them? There's a simple choice for them though isn't there?

Do one or the other, gas or climbing gear? How hard is that?

Don't you just do the best you can?

If you know Company XXX are ripping down the rainforest,  don't you just buy from somewhere else?

I don't understand why , if I can't buy a mobile phone with a chip from Israel, when I'm boycotting Israeli goods, I have to completely cave in and not boycott anyone. You wouldn't do this in any other area of your life, would you?

I can't get a vegan Cornish pasty so I'm never going to eat again!!

I think this is something that people seem to be missing: it doesn't make you a hypocrite to not boycott the world. You try and do the best that you can do, obviously everything does have issues, but there's no point in acting totally helpless when there are little things that can be done in an aim to make things better.

This. Anything decision you make SHOULD be political in the widest sense.

CB

No, no choice for BD whatsoever.

BD don't sell gas. BD and it's management and employees have no influence whatsoever on Kanders other company, which is not part of the same group who own BD, (and incidentally no longer sells tear gas)

How hard is that?. 

You claim they're walking poles. How do you know they're not actually collapsible batons, a tool of fascist oppression?

In reply to elliott92:

I thought Lemmy put it quite well about how he preferred knives to guns because it was too easy for people to kill one another with a gun, where as with a knife they have to get up close and see & feel the other person die up close in front of them.

In his rather dark way of putting it, too much detachment from the victim makes it too easy to do.

I've heard you eat breakfast cereal funded by suspicious organisations. 

How so? If a company like Hugo Boss, Ford or Siemens were right in there with the Nazi holocaust why would you buy their shit? You might as well be buying from a slaver descendent company. 

So it's fine now to meet Hitler and think Mien Kampf is great? Do you know what happened to British people during the bombing by German fascists? Do you know what the fascists did? 

So what is wrong with boycotting the lot and having morals? Or is that an alien word these days? 

But is it a rucksack designed for the military, or a rucksack that happens to be used by the military? No such ambiguity with a bullet.

Or is there? Is it a bullet only sold to defensive forces, or to aggressive ones? 

There is a distinction between bullets used by the military and those used by hunters.  I have Sierra bullets for hunting with a rifle.

I sometimes wonder if a company can be thought to still be tainted, if the people involved in immoral things or taking immoral decisions are now dead and it was a lifetime ago? I  I guess it's along the lines of whether a company is it's history or not.

I definitely agree about boycotting companies currently doing immoral things.

Which companies are on your boycott list? 

I do know what the second world war was about, both my grandfathers served, & both my parents lived through it, my father being an evacuee..

So I take it you have never in your life used services or own items made by those companies??…..I very much doubt it...considering those companies cover huge amounts of banking, medicines, cars etc...& most computers, & mobile phones contain items made by Siemens, IBM, & most internet banking transitions are carried out by Barclays....how do you even reply to this thread??

As far as the Mein Kampf & Hitler reference, that was about Robert Baden Powell, & before the start of the war. When the war started RBP changed his mind so much that the Nazis' put him on a execution list for when they invaded the UK as he was now seen as a threat to them! 

As far as "boycotting the lot & having morals?"...I hope you also boycott all the companies & brands that are invested in by the Saudis also as they have poor human rights records....to be even handed & fair in your "boycotting"....Also the Chinese companies considering what they are doing to Hong Kong etc.....

I don't actively boycott companies based those issues as once you start boycotting one, the same or similar applies to many other companies & you will end up homeless & naked on the street & without any medicine, or money, or jobs...& I need my medicine for my health....I don't think I could boycott the hospital because the CT or MRT scanner uses Siemens or IBM parts, & the medicine is made by Bayer...…

Far from it. The problem with your pension is more likely to be its disproportionate exposure to “sin stocks” like oil or tobacco. These have been underperforming for years but they are still popular among pension firms for their reliable cash flows, since interest rates and bond yields are very low and relatively unattractive. Huge volumes of research show that, of late, investing according to ESG (environmental, social and governance) principles is significantly more profitable, as a growing proportion of investors’ money is squeezed into a smaller pool of more “virtuous” companies.

The current pension situation is pretty shit.I’ve spent some time trying to move my various bits of private pension money to ethical investment with really limited success. There just seems to be so little out there as regards ethical pension funds.

Are you sure? The quickest of google searches suggests that ethical pensions are offered by Axa, Friends Provident, Legal & General, Norwich Union, Prudential and Skandia. I'd be surprised if all the others don't as well. ESG investing is as big as coronavirus in the financial press. And believe me, the press hasn't moved on from the latter!

Sierra also make bullets to"defend", the kind of bullets that end up in school shootings.

https://www.sierrabullets.com/products/uses/defend/

One issue is how the pension providers define ethical, my company stakeholder pension (NEST) has an ethical option that lists Nestle in the top 10 holdings.

I'm curious to know how Coca-Cola contributed - I was under the impression that the Nazis thought Coke too American and discouraged its consumption (possibly prohibited it outright), leading to the creation of Fanta as the Fatherland's alternative

Yes I can see how an individual’s definition would differ from a market that needs one size to fit all. Probably like me they start with the industry standard in ESG ratings which is this:

https://www.msci.com/esg-ratings/issuer/nestle-sa/IID000000002144386

Nestle gets a high score, presumably because valid but somewhat ancient concerns over milk formula marketing don’t outweigh Nestle’s modern efforts on plastic bottle reduction etc.

All the info in this article here:-

https://www.businessinsider.com/how-coca-cola-invented-fanta-in-nazi-german...

QUOTES:-

Coca-Cola expanded throughout Europe, where it eventually reached Germany. An American expatriate named Ray Rivington Powers was put in charge of the German subsidiary.

But despite Powers' crafty salesmanship, he didn't care for the details of financial bookkeeping and often left bills unpaid and bank statements unopened. As a result, the German subsidiary was a financial mess, and the accounts were left in serious need of managing. Then, in 1933, Adolf Hitler rose to power and the reign of the Third Reich began, marking a new era for Germany and for Coca-Cola.

Enter Max Keith, a German-born man with a domineering air and an unwavering allegiance to Coca-Cola.

this meant reestablishing Coca-Cola's reputation - not as an all-American icon, but as a brand fit for German consumption.

the 1936 Summer Olympics in Berlin were the perfect marketing opportunity for Coca-Cola. It catered at the games once again. Just like with most brands active in Germany at this time, it appeared beside waving banners emblazoned with swastikas. After this, the Coca-Cola logo was seen at various athletic competitions in Germany and later even on trucks at Hitler Youth rallies. And the ninth annual concessionaire convention ended with a Keith-led pledge to Coca-Cola and a rousing "Sieg heil!" to Hitler.

Despite never actually joining the Nazi Party himself, Keith was willing to work with the Third Reich to keep the company afloat,

While other multinational businesses operating in Germany at this time were unable to make products, Keith was determined to still produce something. So he made a tactical decision. He oversaw the creation of an exclusively German soft drink.

At this time, Fanta was all he had to keep the company afloat. Fortunately for Keith, Fanta was also all Germany had. With few soft-drink alternatives, its popularity exploded.

Keith then used his connections in the Third Reich to gain a position overseeing all Coca-Cola plants in Germany and the territories it conquered. This allowed him to spread Fanta across Europe and save other subsidiaries from shutting down. The German branch sold about 3 million cases of the drink before the war was over.

And when the Allies eventually marched on German factories, production of Fanta ceased and Keith handed over the profits of his creation to Coca-Cola headquarters in Atlanta.

END QUOTES

I think that covers why Coca-Cola "profited" & is on the that list. 

You’re entitled to a subjective dislike of Nestle. I’m not a fan either as it happens so you’re not alone. But the investment community has to develop objective measures based on what it believes to be most important to consumers. Crucially putting customers’ values ahead of its own. In this case Nestle is judged to be very considerably more virtuous than evil. Have a play with the link I provided for more granularity. Interestingly water management is deemed a key positive so either they know something you don’t or it’s the other way round

*Edit: More of a philosophical point than anything btw.

The speculants could not give a f*ck about ethics unless people buying their "products" stop doing so. Unfortunately, for most investors the only thing that counts is money. If you manage to montarize essential, common goods like water, you have entire nations by the short and curlies and can extract as much wealth as you want. THAT is why Nestle are being viewed more positively by speculants, not because they because they are providing an important service that anyone would benefit from.

CB

I’m afraid you’re completely out of touch with priorities in modern commerce and investing. Of course money lies at the root of corporate and investment choices, but consumers do care, very much, about corporate ethics, so companies behaving virtuously are more profitable today and those with better ESG scores have higher valuations. There are so many articles and research available just a google away that it might pay to do a little research of your own.

This. My definition of ethical is very different from how it’s defined by these funds. I think NEST is actually one of the better ones but as an individual I can’t move my pension to it.

Tear gas is not illegal to make or for Police to use.

There is a legal framework for using it, in the US and in the UK.

Hey.... let's boycott McVittie's as the very same Police who use teargas eat digestives in the Police station. It's an outrage.

I remember posting a similar thread on this topic a while ago.

Natalie Berry, you follow that Instagram account, what are your opinions on such a topic? 

The real outrage is twofold: that the police have cash to splash for branded biscuits, and that they're seeing fit to treat themselves to anything posher than a Rich Tea

Interesting, thanks. 'Profiting from the holocaust' seems a bit of a stretch, but one can see that Coke probably wouldn't be keen to advertise itself as the Fascist's Refreshment

That is why I started to boycott Nestle. 

AO damn it!

I love H&B. 

It has now been sold to a Russian Company. 

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jun/26/holland-barrett-sold-russi...

S

Hurrah! 

I knew you wound say that!.... 

.... The cofounder is not exactly old school communist though. 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Fridman

Do people have any ethical issues with HP and or Microsoft? 

Is the water management a comparative  (to other large brands) Score though? Coke are famously poor for their management of ground water so is it just that they are better than coke or are they actually make a positive contribution?

Do you think that the police don't need tear gas/ crowd control products?

Yeah I fundamentally disagree with the use of tear gas by the police, and think that there are far to many cases of misuse of things like rubber bullets (from what is shown by the media, at least). There are other effective means of crowd control that don't require these products.

Yes, like not having a fascist state and institutional racism. 

UK police (or British, at least - probably different in NI) don't use either tear gas or rubber bullets, do they? Even the water canon trucks Boris bought them went unused

Must be taking a long time to compile the very long list eh? 😃 

With HP yes

CS gas really isn't that bad and doesn't cause any real lasting damage. What are the 'nice' alternatives for pushing a crowd back in a public order scenario - should dog teams be allowed for example? 

Please tell me more as I'm in the process of purchasing a laptop. 

Baton rounds are certainly available in the UK, but I don't think they've ever been deployed in a riot. I think they're an option where it's unsafe to get close enough to use a taser.

Too big to fit in the streets of London, pretty much useless in the first place.

Especially when deploying them is not legal..........

First we are asked to boycott Black Diamond and now we're being asked to boycott Brown Sauce.
What's next? Green Tea?

I meant HP as in the computer company. Hewlett Packard is abbreviated to HP. 

I think he knew that Sav. It's a play on words. Well, letters anyway.

The Hewlett Packard Company (HP) has become notorious for its direct involvement in the Israeli occupation, providing the Israeli regime with technologies of surveillance and control used in the occupied Palestinian territory.

https://www.palestinecampaign.org/campaigns/hp/

So I try to avoid their stuff, obviously this might not be an issue to you, but at least now you know.

I've been boycotting Double Diamond for years

Good logic. Boycott the non-lethals in a country where lethal force is commonly used and each police officer carries a gun. 

Other reasons people have given for boycott is that they provide body armour and helmets.

Having done a decent amount of public order training and been teargassed it really doesn't worry me that these items are available. Deployment proportional to risk is the key, what your views are on proportionality may differ but there are many occasions where the threat to an officer (who doesn't actually want to be there) is significant.

You're welcome to deprive them of their shields and non-lethals but all you'll be left with is scared officers who feel that the only option they have is lethal force. If this is the core aim of the movement then crack on. 

But it works wonders!

To be pedantic, it's "less lethal'.

Rules them out for me then.

I hope that, to be fair to HP, you do equally in-depth research into the ethics of all candidate brands and the components they use, Savvas.  And would you purchase from a retailer that also stocks HP equipment?

Ethics is the one thing that has delayed me in purchasing a laptop and it's just not about the device itself it is about the operating system.

That is really  good question - take John Lewis for example there are so good with their employees but they stock HP equipment.

Sav

I love the brown sauce they make. What's unethical about my sausage sarnies?

In the early days of Wild Country, the company got a lucrative opportunity to produce military equipment. Mark Vallance, the company owner, said it would only happen over his dead body. Don't know if this is still the case but, if so, it would be a good alternative to DMM and Black Diamond equipment. It would be interesting to know where these companies sell their gear. Tear gas and 'tactical equipment' are used by some pretty dodgy regimes around the world.

Why? It might be best if you can, but if for whatever reason you can't then what are you saying, that he might as well buy HP?

You do what you feel you can do, it doesn't have to be absolute, or final, why does it have to be all or nothing?

There's very little else in life you'd take that attitude with, I don't like blue cheese, it doesn't mean I don't eat other cheese or only buy cheese from shops that don't sell blue cheese.

It sounds like an excuse not to do anything, are an attempt to dissuade someone from doing something, even if it's a very small thing.

Fair question although the cheese analogy is woeful. I was just pointing out to Savvas that the world is more complicated than just reacting to something he’s heard about a single brand. Maybe that is a bit like saying “why bother at all”; to be honest I hadn’t thought it through. 

I've had a rough day

They were bought by the Salewa group a couple of years back. 

Good one.... 

On a different topic. 

My apology got deleted and my supportive posts did to.