Belly flab

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 subtle 02 Nov 2021

Ok, did think of putting this in The Pub section but that's where it all started to go wrong.....

I'm starting to notice that I don't quite have the same beach bod that I used to,  and in fact I am developing quite a substantial paunch.

Now, how to deal with this - I genuinely don't think exercise more will shift it so may have to think of other methods, maybe including some of the following:

1. Drastic cut down wine consumption (and beer I suppose), maybe to only weekends

2.  Cut down on portion size in the evening meal, although when I do that it leads to snacking later

3. Look at the type of food I'm consuming and cut down on carbs - not quite the keto thingy but a cut down on amount of rice and potatoes and crisps

Realistically I need to drop a stone and I will be happy so please offer all constructive advice on how to achieve this - please also feel free to offer other sorts of comments, such as "Step Away From The Fridge" etc as they may also help spur me on

Post edited at 14:15
In reply to subtle:

Watching thread with interest.

 profitofdoom 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

My wisdom, such as it is, and based only on my experiences, is: the best 2 ideas are (1) cutting down on alcohol, and - best of all - (2) portion control, with no snacking later 

Not easy to do 

Good luck 

 tony 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I was training for the Lairig Ghru race earlier this year and was looking to lose some weight. I stopped drinking alcohol completely and lost about 6 lbs in as many weeks. 

Exercise on its own won't work. You will have to reduce your intake, and you will have to be disciplined with your snacking. 

In reply to subtle:

If you can drastically cut wine and beer consumption, by going to weekends only, it sounds like you are doing too much anyway. I find I eat more if I drink so a big cut there would help all round. 

Crisps. I would try and avoid these altogether.

Try and be active at times you snack.

 Lankyman 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Tapeworms

2
 Jenny C 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

It is amazes me how many people routinely drink midweek. Cutting down to weekends is an easy way to reduce consumption without really feeling like you are giving something up. 

16
 Neil Williams 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Eat less, exercise more.  You lose weight by way of making a calorie deficit.

Yes, I know, it's not easy to *actually* do that (I'd be skinny if it was), but it is the basic idea.

Alcohol as you say is particularly calorific.

Post edited at 14:29
3
 Neil Williams 02 Nov 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

One way to reduce snacking is make sure that your meal really fills you up with fruit and veg.

Some ideas:

1. If you make your spag bol, curry, chilli etc with meat and sauce, put lots of veg in and reduce the meat.  Meat is very calorific, veg often much less so.  Flavour with meat rather than it being the main protein.

2. Have a salad with your meal.  Salads are boring on their own but do help fill you up.

3. If you don't normally have a dessert, start having a fruit-based one to fill you up.

4. Cheese is the best food in the world but VERY calorific, not a lot is worse other than eating sticks of lard dipped in icing sugar, probably need to cut back on it if you like I eat a lot.

5. As you said, in rice/pasta based meals, increase the proportion of veg and reduce the proportion of rice/pasta.  I've done this by finding suitable measuring cups - a shot glass for rice, a small sweetcorn can for pasta - as weighing stuff is a faff and if you just free-pour you always do too much.

Post edited at 14:33
7
 elsewhere 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

About 6 months ago I got a talking to at the GPs so decided to lose some weight as I was overweight and my blood sugar looked a bit dodgy (turned out it was probably the white bread breakfast I'd just eaten, long term blood sugar and fasted test later were OK).

Breakfast - 25g oats, 100g semi skimmed milk for porridge with teaspoon of maple syrup rather than the previous 40g & 160g respectively. Keeps you feeling full longer than the alternatives. Replace some of the 25g oats with nuts or seeds.

Lunch - some tomatoes, apple & protein shake, yoghurt. 4 or 5 times per week.

Evening meal - modest portions, little or no chips/spuds/rice/bread/carbs but extra veg/salad.

If you get ready made meals get the low cal ones.

Snacking - little or none to start with. Not much chocolate, biscuits or crisps etc.

You definitely need to feel a bit hungry between meals without snacking.

It's not metabolism, heavy bones or even exercise*. You have to eat a bit less.

*the amount of exercise to make up for consuming extra calories is probably beyond most of us or impractical unless you are an athlete who wouldn't have belly to start with.

Lost two and a bit stone in 6 months so starting to snack a bit as belly mostly gone.

You use the word "Drastic" so maybe count up how many of you cals are alcohol and snacks when drinking. Try 0.5% beers (or "beers"), they taste better to me than 0% beers.

PS what Neil says about measuring portion sizes is a very good point although I tend to do it by weight.

If you look at the "serves 4" or suggested serving sizes they'll almost certainly indicate your normal portion size is bigger than what the producer thinks it should be. Try to stick to what it says on the packet or less.

Post edited at 14:59
 Neil Williams 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Jenny C:

> It is amazes me how many people routinely drink midweek. Cutting down to weekends is an easy way to reduce consumption without really feeling like you are giving something up.

Yes, very true.  If it's just a ritual/habit, get into the habit of a decaf coffee/tea before bed instead.  If it's more than that, then there's probably more to sort out than just overeating.

Post edited at 14:38
 Lankyman 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

>not a lot is worse other than eating sticks of lard dipped in icing sugar

In Scotland this is considered healthy eating. Normally, they are battered and deep-fried

1
 elsewhere 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

If you follow a recipe, it pretty always seems it could do with more veg.

1
 Neil Williams 02 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

Regarding breakfast, cereal is the worst because it causes an insulin spike and thus the munchies around 10-11am.  I actually feel more hungry mid-morning if I have a carby cereal than if I have nothing at all.  And the feeling of being sluggish until I had breakfast turned out just to be caffeine addiction - a cup of tea without food fixes that fine.

I have since slipped back into eating breakfast, but more often fruit and yogurt or similar.  This isn't really any less calorific than cereal unless you have half a box, but it at least prevents mid-morning munchies.

 Jenny C 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Yes, very true.  If it's just a ritual/habit, get into the habit of a decaf coffee/tea before bed instead.  If it's more than that, then there's probably more to sort out than just overeating.

What I find interesting is that now we have broken the habit, we don't always drink at weekends. Yes we still enjoy drinking, but because we do so less its actually more enjoyable/special.

We do both have a serious tea addiction though. (Caffeine free in my case)

1
 jezb1 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

The first thing I'd do is work out how many calories you're having per day, and how many you actually need depending on how active you are. MyFitnessPal or similar can help with this.

1
 Toerag 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> One way to reduce snacking is make sure that your meal really fills you up with fruit and veg.

^^ this - bulk out with low calorie fruit & veg. However, this still retains the large stomach which can fit in lots of high calorie foods, so some portion size reduction is probably required to re-train and shrink the stomach.

In reply to subtle:

As mentioned above, you need to create the energy deficit by reducing calorie input (diet) or increasing output, either exercise, or keeping warm - it's amazing how allowing yourself to be slightly cooler than normal can have an effect on your energy requirements.  Often one of the easiest ways to increase exercise is to do it everywhere - park at the far end of carparks to increase your walking distance, take stairs instead of lifts, cycle/walk/public transport to work once a week etc. Little adjustments like that are easier to make than big 'I'm going to the gym/for a run'.

 antdav 02 Nov 2021
In reply to jezb1:

The first step is to know where you are consuming the most calories, i.e. which meal, snacks, drinks, booze etc. then you can make the most impactful changes. I swapped a bowl of cereal for skyr, cereal bars for 10 calorie jelly and corner yoghurts for low calorie ice cream. A 500 calorie a day change is a 1lb a week fat loss.

 jethro kiernan 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Cut out White bread

cut out beer and wine

weight training it doesn’t have to be heavy weights or big muscles but muscle’s burn calories

no snacks in the shopping basket

eat nice food in smaller portions 

more veg.

2
OP subtle 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Thanks all.

Regarding alcohol, none generally Mon or Tues, training on a Wed evening so that turns into Wine Wednesday (guess I could stop that), Thurs is generally none, Fri is probably two 330g cans of beer, then wine on Sat and Sun with the evening meals - not that much?

Breakfast tends to be 2 egg omelette, lunch is a tupperware box filled with salad + protein (chicken breast, or ham, or even a pork pie, hmm) plus an apple - then home at night for home cooked dinner - heavy on the rice/tatties/pasta though.

Depending upon evening meal there may be a big bag of crisps consumed by me - guess that should go - along with the bags of nuts.

So, no more Wine Wednesday (will be a tough one giving that up), no more crisps or nuts as snacks in the evening, and cut down portion size in the evening I guess.

Will be ripped by Christmas if I manage that I reckon. 

1
 Enty 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Myfitnesspal.com is great for counting calories.

Set yourself a target weight and time to get there and it will calculate your daily calorie intake required. Then it's easy to count what you're putting in.

My target is 1500 cals a day (hard to do with my lifestyle!) but on a Wednesday and Saturday club ride it's not uncommon for the rides to be up to 3000 cals each so that's a few glasses of wine right there.
On other days, 15 minutes brisk hike to my crag, 15 minutes back + 2/3 hours top roping / working routes - all adds up.

When I stick to the plan, on a good week, I can lose up to a kilo.

E

 mountainbagger 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> 4. Cheese is the best food in the world but VERY calorific, not a lot is worse other than eating sticks of lard dipped in icing sugar, probably need to cut back on it if you like I eat a lot.

The only reason I run 40-50 miles a week is so I can eat cheese.

 Sam Beaton 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I have lost a stone in 2 months by (a) cutting out processed carbs like pasta, potato waffles and white rice and replacing them with carbs like quinoa, brown rice, jacket spuds and freekeh and (b) snacking on veg and salad instead of anything with sugar in it. 

The most interesting thing that has happened is that my appetite has shrunk. A very small amount of quinoa keeps me fuller for longer than a bigger portion of pasta.

 Robert Durran 02 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> If you look at the "serves 4" or suggested serving sizes they'll almost certainly indicate your normal portion size is bigger than what the producer thinks it should be. Try to stick to what it says on the packet or less.

So can I confirm that you are seriously saying that "serves 4" doesn't actually mean "serves 1 normal person"?

 Sealwife 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

> 1. Drastic cut down wine consumption (and beer I suppose), maybe to only weekends

> 2.  Cut down on portion size in the evening meal, although when I do that it leads to snacking later

> 3. Look at the type of food I'm consuming and cut down on carbs - not quite the keto thingy but a cut down on amount of rice and potatoes and crisps

> Realistically I need to drop a stone and I will be happy so please offer all constructive advice on how to achieve this - please also feel free to offer other sorts of comments, such as "Step Away From The Fridge" etc as they may also help spur me on

Might as well bite the bullet and do all 3.  If you faff around cutting down half-heartedly, you’ll not see much difference in weight, making it easy to just give up.

Alcohol - empty calories, no nutritional need, does you no good at all.  Pack it in for, say a month, and see if that helps.  Will also help prevent snacking.

Portion control, put less on your plate.  Eating smaller meals only leads to snacking if you a) have snacks in the house and b) decide you are going to eat them.  Don’t buy attractive snacks.  You will get used to having smaller portions.

Go easy on the white carbs, they don’t do your blood sugar any good.  Put more veg on your plate instead.

Good luck!

 elsewhere 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes. I think many people would think it would serve 2 (for example) but don't read the packet that says serve 4. Hence I seriously suggest that somebody trying to lose weight actually reads the packet.

Post edited at 16:05
 Ciro 02 Nov 2021
In reply to tony: 

> Exercise on its own won't work. You will have to reduce your intake, and you will have to be disciplined with your snacking. 

That's simply not true - unless you're seriously obese, you're not going to be eating more than a serious training program can burn off.

An ironman triathlon training program can easily add 3,000 kcal / day to your metabolism in the space of six months.

If you're eating the kind of excess calories that wouldn't take care of, you're not just going to have a paunch to get rid of.

Saying that, you'll burn the fat off, but if your diet's crap you're still storing up health problems, no matter how hard you train.

4
 nathan79 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

Agree with most of this aside from point 1. Meats are where you should be getting your quality protein and a fair amount of your daily calories. Use leaner cuts if necessary and cut down on the rice/naan/pasta/garlic bread/chips on the side.

To be fair I also disagree with salads filling you up. I grudgingly force down the length stuff first just to get it out of the way so I can fill up with the stuff I like!

To OP:

as others have said it really helps to count your calories as you are at the moment to know how much you're taking in. Only then can you make an adjustment to out yourself in a deficit which is the easiest way of doing it. Adjusting your macros i.e. protein/carbs/fat ratio is worth considering but a more bother.

1
 elsewhere 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

Realistically, how typical is it to have a belly AND be able to do an ironman triathlon training program?

Post edited at 16:28
2
 Robert Durran 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> That's simply not true - unless you're seriously obese, you're not going to be eating more than a serious training program can burn off.

Yes, I've always worked in the rule of thumb that, when training hard, one should eat as much as one likes before training and as much as one can afterwards.

2
 Neil Williams 02 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> Realistically, how typical is it to have a belly AND be able to do an ironman triathlon training program?

Not totally out of the realms of possibility (look at some rugby players for example).

Also the heavier you are, the more walking and running burn.

Post edited at 16:32
 Neil Williams 02 Nov 2021
In reply to nathan79:

> Agree with most of this aside from point 1. Meats are where you should be getting your quality protein and a fair amount of your daily calories.

Most vegetarians and vegans probably disagree.  Meat is a nice to have, not a must have.

> cut down on the rice/naan/pasta/garlic bread/chips on the side.

Absolutely, but unless you are just eating steak and chips/rice for every meal you're missing the key point of veg.

> To be fair I also disagree with salads filling you up. I grudgingly force down the length stuff first just to get it out of the way so I can fill up with the stuff I like!

I'm sure you'd prefer to eat steak and chips, I would, but the OP wants to lose weight!

> as others have said it really helps to count your calories as you are at the moment to know how much you're taking in.

Myfitnesspal etc is a faff but works very well.

1
 Ciro 02 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> Realistically, how typical is it to have a belly AND be able to do an ironman triathlon training program?

Very realistic - swimming and cycling are low impact, you can start with those and add running later.

Or do something else with similar energy requirements and low impact - rowing, cold water surfing, cross country skiing, polar exploration with a pulk.

Time constraints and/or motivation might get in the way of doing the levels of exercise required, but it's wrong to say it can't be done.

 tony 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

>  

> That's simply not true - unless you're seriously obese, you're not going to be eating more than a serious training program can burn off.

> An ironman triathlon training program can easily add 3,000 kcal / day to your metabolism in the space of six months.

An ironman isn't a common training regime. To lose more weight than could be lost through sensible dietary changes needs a lot of regular exercise, particularly if increased exercise makes you more hungry.

For me, cutting out alcohol had a much more significant impact on my weight than 50 miles per week of hill running. 

 Doug 02 Nov 2021

After some health problems earlier this year (high blood pressure & gout) my GP recomended that I should loose some weight & also change my diet to cut back on red meat & charcuterie, no beer or spirits & only a little wine (I live in France). So I've drunk very little alcohol for some 3 months & made an effort to eat less, especially eating fruit when peckish rather than biscuits, cake etc. Unfortunately at first I wasn't able to do much exercise so couldn't increase how many calories I burnt. As a result I've lost about 12 Kg (2 stone ?) over 3 months. Side effects include less knee aches (now I can walk in the hills again) & a smaller appetite.

Post edited at 16:57
 elsewhere 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> Very realistic - swimming and cycling are low impact, you can start with those and add running later.

That is genuinely realistic.

> Or do something else with similar energy requirements and low impact - rowing, cold water surfing, cross country skiing, polar exploration with a pulk.

Looking out the window, I see no water, surf, snow or polar wastes and there's none nearby. It's not sounding very realistic to fit around work now that the clocks have changed.

> Time constraints and/or motivation might get in the way of doing the levels of exercise required, but it's wrong to say it can't be done.

I do think it's not realistic because looking to lose weight due to having a belly and being capable of doing an ironman training programme are mostly mutually exclusive. They could start an ironman training program, but I don't think it would start at 3000 Cal per day.

1
 The Norris 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I've had previous success with the 5:2 diet and am doing it again currently after the lockdown year gave me a lot of bad habits.

I find, psychologically, its easier to diet strictly for 1 day knowing that you can eat reasonably normally tomorrow. 1 week down and 3lbs lost, and that included a Saturday binge of a tasty burger and gnt's.

May not be the healthiest approach but hopefully my arteries will appreciate the stone lost in a couple of months.

Good luck!

 nikoid 02 Nov 2021
In reply to DubyaJamesDubya

> Crisps. I would try and avoid these altogether.

I could never do that!

 gravy 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

(1) stop drinking

(2) stop snacking

(3) eat slightly smaller main meals on smaller plates

(4) don't go for 2nds - just wait 15 minutes the urge to keep eating will fade

(5) it's ok to be a little hungry every now and again (ie before meals)

If you save on 1500 calories a week (a mars bar a day) that's 50 packs of butter in volume of flab. Obviously it doesn't work exactly like that but it probably took a long time to get the paunch in the first place and the visible lard is only part of what you've put on but a 5-10% restriction in lard in for a year tends to help a lot.

It's worth deflating at the sort of rate you inflated and no faster!

Post edited at 17:32
 1poundSOCKS 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I end up at my leanest, and sustainably so, by ignoring calories and eating plenty of meat and other nutrient rich foods such as eggs and fish.

Meat, and protein generally, is great for satiety per calorie and for building lean mass, which will help keep you lean in the long run.

Avoid processed stuff, especially refined carbs and stick to whole foods. The low fat products are generally higher in sugar and I'd rather have the fats.

It is individual but I've always struggled to maintain weight loss over the years, so I've tried most things.

 hang_about 02 Nov 2021
In reply to gravy:

(1) cutting out I found hard, cutting down much easier (1 glass of wine or beer on weekend evenings only)

(2) yup - no snacks - or eat fruit if desperate

(3) yup - and eat more slowly - that helps with (4)

(5) yup - bit of noble suffering.

+ exercise (bike riding - went from 10 miles, now up to 70)

Lost 10 kg in 3 months and have kept it off

Tracked via a spreadsheet, weighed once a week (to avoid scale watching) and named it fat b*stard to remind me. Supportive spouse (bit too enthusiastic in whipping the plate away).

You've got to re-train your eating habits though as otherwise it will go back on quickly.

 Jon Stewart 02 Nov 2021
In reply to Jenny C:

> It is amazes me how many people routinely drink midweek. Cutting down to weekends is an easy way to reduce consumption without really feeling like you are giving something up. 

I don't see what's amazing, and there's loads of stuff I'd choose to cut down on before chopping the wine with my evening meal. Fair enough if you don't particularly like booze, but I absolutely love it. I get excited when I see a new bottle of wine in my price bracket and taste available in the shop. I plan what I'll cook depending on the wine I've got lined up. I'll maybe not bother with wine if for some reason I'm having a crap dinner, but a good meal with wine is a cornerstone of my daily routine. 

Reduce boozing to one glass for health and cost reasons? Sure, great idea, worth serious consideration. Cut it out til the weekend? That's a no from me, I'd rather be fat.

Post edited at 18:02
4
 deacondeacon 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I have just done this. Lost 11kg in  2-3  months. I just stopped snacking between meals. And i got back my beach bod lol. The first week is awful and then it becomes normal.

Don't beat yourself up if you slip, just get back on that horse and carry on 🙂

 Ciro 02 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> Looking out the window, I see no water, surf, snow or polar wastes and there's none nearby. It's not sounding very realistic to fit around work now that the clocks have changed.

Sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses. 

You can buy a rowing machine or an exercise bike to use at home, or an old tractor tyre to pull around the local park using and old climbing harness and some ropes. 

Or you could re-arrange your life - change job, change career, move to the mountains, move to the sea.

There's a difference between what we're prepared to do and what's possible.

> I do think it's not realistic because looking to lose weight due to having a belly and being capable of doing an ironman training programme are mostly mutually exclusive.

That's a very pessimistic take - a belly shouldn't stop you training. After his divorce, my brother went from lifelong couch potato to completing his first full distance Ironman in 12 months.

> They could start an ironman training program, but I don't think it would start at 3000 Cal per day.

No, it wouldn't start at 3000 kCal / day, and I never said it would - I said you could get there in around 6 months.

I was a bit fitter than my brother, and had been doing 5 and 10km runs when I decided to train for a half ironman - in six months in I was eating 5,500 - 6,000 kCal / day and still losing weight. I went from a bit of a belly to finding it hard to eat enough calories to maintain a healthy bodyfat percentage.

After that I started training for a full distance, and was up to more like 7,000 kCal / day. And I'm only 5'6"... most adult males will be bigger, and therefore end up burning more calories for the same amount of training effort.

Michael Phelps burned around 12,000 kCal / day training mostly in the swimming pool and the weights room.

1
In reply to subtle:

As with most things, you need a motivation and a goal. Losing ‘some’ weight can fulfil both of these, but say ‘losing a stone’ ‘in order to climb x grade or x routes’ is the key to success. Set yourself a target thing you really want to achieve and you will succeed.

I wanted to try and reverse the decline in grades that happened to me up to turning 60, and unpalatable as it might be to many, I weighed up what brought me most joy. The answer was climbing, so I ditched alcohol and became a vegan. Lost weight easily, which never went back on and upped my grades again. Actually, some less tangible outcomes like less aches and pains after climbing and sleeping way better. Nothing else has come close to what climbing has given me in the last 40+ years. If you can find some kind of motivation like this, you’ll cruise it. Good luck.

paul

 im off 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Hmmmm. Yeah. Not easy.

I reckon it's mostly psychological. You've got to be sure you really do want to loose it so can keep motivated.

Do regular exercise daily.....burn calories, and keeps you motivated to diet.

Have a diet you can stick to rather than "dieting". I struggle with this. I did a low carb diet and lost wt well with good control of appetite....wasn't really hungry on it. Gradually got bored of it.

Recently I've sort of tried the intermittent fasting. I eat loads into the evening so eating at 6 a normal decent feed then no more till breakfast...or sometimes midday ish. You get used to having an empty stomach feeling. 

I find alcohol makes me really hungry the following day.....try low alcohol beer? I like it.

Once read a book called racing weight and followed its guide lines....worked well and was quite simple advise. Basically it was eat well and healthily among other things.

That's my thoughts. I spend alot of time thinking about food😂

 Jon Stewart 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I haven't watched this, but it's a source I trust a bit more than internet forums, even UKC

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GQJ0Z0DRumg&ab_channel=TheRoyalInstitut...

 Timmd 02 Nov 2021
In reply to tony:

> I was training for the Lairig Ghru race earlier this year and was looking to lose some weight. I stopped drinking alcohol completely and lost about 6 lbs in as many weeks. 

> Exercise on its own won't work. You will have to reduce your intake, and you will have to be disciplined with your snacking. 

Sometimes exercise alone 'can' work, going on somebody who had a belly before spending several months walking up and down the drive of my childhood home while landscaping it, he told my Dad that he'd always had a stomach until he'd had to 'keep walking up and down that drive'.

I'm in a similar position as the OP, in wanting to lose my middle age spread before it arrives, and since cycling to uni and back each day for the past month (15 mins downhill, and 40 mins back up again), as well as occasionally not having time for breakfast and still cycling in, I've managed to get into some 30 inch Howies jeans, which wasn't possible a couple of months ago.

I've recently read that finishing eating before 7pm (or 6 ideally) can be helpful, with when one eats also being important. 

Apples and eggs are meant to be good for feeling sated and less likely to snack apparently...

Post edited at 18:50
In reply to subtle:

It isn't just fat. There is also middle-age slump to deal with, as your internals migrate southward...

Granted, I have developed a 'covid baby' due to not cycling to and from work every day, and have put on 3kg despite almost certainly losing muscle mass from my legs...

 Graeme G 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Haven’t read the rest of the thread so apologies if I’m repeating.

I suffer a significant gut. Only way I’ve ever shifted it is to stop eating the 3 Bs and 3 Cs;

booze, bread and biscuits, chocolates, cake and crisps

Then Covid came and screwed it all up.

 Darron 02 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I’m no angel but I invented a new, very effective, diet some years ago. It’s called the ‘leave the sh*t in the supermarket diet’😊

In reply to Darron:

> ‘leave the sh*t in the supermarket diet’

Don't you get funny looks taking a shit in the aisles...?

Andy Gamisou 03 Nov 2021
In reply to captain paranoia:

> It isn't just fat. There is also middle-age slump to deal with, as your internals migrate southward...

I sorted that out by having a substantial lump of my innards removed a couple of years ago.  Lost over a stone of weight in the process (much of which wasn't my innards) which I've managed to keep off, mostly by going plant-based and avoiding alcohol (mostly).

 Graeme G 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Darron:

> I’m no angel but I invented a new, very effective, diet some years ago. It’s called the ‘leave the sh*t in the supermarket diet’😊

^This.

They should label most of the aisles “Sugar based products” and the rest “Food”

1
 barry donovan 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

16/8 has proven to work for many people with hard evidence.  Eat say between 8 and 4 or 10 and 6 in the day and nothing outside (except water) those times.  Autophagy - look it up.

No particular restrictions at first except at 5 you stop.  Takes a bit of getting used to.  Look up Dr Rhonda Fleming and other s on you tube on the topic of partial fasting.  Good luck. 

 Rog Wilko 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Look at your crockery and perhaps your cutlery. Do you use those huge bowls which are like half a globe? Those fashionable huge plates? Huge wineglasses? Especially at breakfast time, it’s very easy to unthinkingly fill your bowl. You don’t need to give up alcohol altogether. Maybe use some very small glasses and buy wine you can’t really afford and relish every SIP. Maybe if your partner also likes a glass, try getting 3 nights out of a bottle. Maybe get a measure. Small cutlery could even help so you get into the habit of eating much more slowly. Maybe put your cutlery down between mouthfuls. Make your meals last longer but eat less.

 tony 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> Sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses. 

> You can buy a rowing machine or an exercise bike to use at home, or an old tractor tyre to pull around the local park using and old climbing harness and some ropes. 

> Or you could re-arrange your life - change job, change career, move to the mountains, move to the sea.

Sounds like some fairly intensive mission creep going on. As an alternative, the OP could just try cutting down on alcohol and snacks. 

Removed User 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Eat twice a day - Skip breakfast (or lunch if you prefer). How to achieve this easily?

Choose foods that satiate - fatty proteins e.g. chicken thigh, belly pork, salmon. Fill up with veg/salad. Don't over do the meat but make sure you get plenty of fat in there. At the same time drop the carbs substantially as a proportion and you just won't feel as hungry.

Instead of breakfast have a black coffee to tamp down any appetite and boost metabolism.

Once your body adjusts to it a two meal a day regime it's easy.

If you have heavy exercise planned (zone 3 or above) you may usefully increase carb uptake prior/post.

1
 Ramblin dave 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

>  Huge wineglasses? Especially at breakfast time...

That took a second to parse. Yeah, I generally only have smaller glasses of wine with my shreddies....

 Graeme G 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Apologies, couldn’t find the video….

https://tenor.com/view/drinking-day-paris-wine-sancerre-gif-18671024

 elsewhere 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> >  Huge wineglasses? Especially at breakfast time...

> That took a second to parse. Yeah, I generally only have smaller glasses of wine with my shreddies....

No the wonder you ramble...

 CantClimbTom 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

You, me and a bunch of other people!

I noticed in my late 30 early 40s my appetite gradually increased. So now my body's equilibrium with average amount of restraint on food and regular exercise etc increased from about 70kg to 75kg and despite having a little more muscle I now fight that older guy spare tyre.

While I haven't totally cracked it, for me a game changing perspective was...

Stop looking for quick shortcuts or "one weird trick" BS to avoid hunger. Sure excessive hunger can derail a diet but you need to psychologically deal with it and ignore it. Snacking is exasperated by feeling slightly hungry and immediately satisfying the urge, you develop a habit, almost like a scratch card addiction desire and rapidly satisfying. You have to break the psychology connection between minor hunger and eating just accept minor hunger and ignore - over time the snack urge will reduce

Also hunger is weird, it's both psychology (linked to memory if you want to Google that) and hormonal (leptin / grehlin). Now the so called "hunger hormone" Grehlin is normally presented as the big baddie making you want to be fat and behind the avoid hunger approach. But elevated Grehlin promotes increase of HGH (human growth hormone) which in turn promotes IGF-1 (insulin like growth factor 1). IGF-1 is sort of for fat what insulin is for glycogen. So if you are chronically hungry your body develops the ability to tap into fat reserves. 

Reducing hunger at all costs will reduce your body's ability to burn fat, so make it harder to shed the tummy fat. You need to psychologically deal with feeling a bit hungry as a background feeling - and tune out to it. Not follow the latest fad guidance to avoid hunger.

Psychological appetite management works for me in a way that anti hunger diets do not.

Hope this helps you too...

 jack89 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

The 12,000 wasn't due to exercise as such, but being in cold water a lot.

https://blog.presidentialpools.com/az-arizona-scottsdale-health-benefits-of...

 Ciro 03 Nov 2021
In reply to tony:

> Sounds like some fairly intensive mission creep going on. As an alternative, the OP could just try cutting down on alcohol and snacks. 

OP can take any approach they like - I wasn't attempting to tell anyone what to do, I was simply correcting the false assertion that is not possible to lose weight without modifying your diet.

1
 Graeme G 03 Nov 2021
In reply to CantClimbTom: 

> You need to psychologically deal with feeling a bit hungry as a background feeling - and tune out to it. Not follow the latest fad guidance to avoid hunger.

When I managed to lose around 26lbs this was singularly the most important thing. Accepting being hungry was ok was what made the most difference. 

cb294 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I cut my beer drinking to three days a week and stopped eating sugary joghurts mid August. By now I have dropped from 115 kg to 106 kg essentially without any effort, and have started pulling trousers from the bottom of the stack that I had retired because apparently corona had caused them to shrink.

Instead, I gave away the brand new, expensive longer judo belt I bought in summer!

CB

 GEd_83 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Low carb, high (healthy) fat & protein works very well for me generally, I've been doing this for a few years now. Sometimes it's Keto, sometimes not. Essentially on days where I'm not very active, I keep it low carb, if I'm out in the mountains or climbing etc I'll up the carbs. If I up the carbs, I usually make sure it's rice or potato, as opposed to bread or anything wheat based. Works very well (for me) and it's very easy to do, doesn't feel like a diet and and I don't have to calorie count or anything. I no longer have any hunger cravings to snack in between the two meals I have a day. If I do go high carb for any length of time (i.e. if I'm on holiday or something), I'll start feeling hungry in between meals again, and after the last holiday I felt mildly diabetic after a week of high carbs etc. I'm not strict either, just consistent, so if I want a pizza or a cake on the weekend, I'll have one, but then just fall back onto low carb high fat the day after. Outside of climbing, hill walking, and bodyweight strength work, I don't do any cardio training, and I'm about 10-12% body fat, so not bad for a 38 yr old with a sedentary job.

Post edited at 11:47
 elliot.baker 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I'll throw my very non-qualified hat in the ring, I've lost about 4-5kg in the last month (89kg down to about 85kg, I'm 5'11") or so by significantly increasing the amount of protein I'm eating, overall I feel like I'm eating more (I'm not monitoring it though) but eating more healthily. 

Contrary to the 2 meal a day idea, I decided to pre-emptively have 4 meals a day: breakfast (oats, weigh out 45g, with fruit), lunch around 12 (then the new "2nd lunch" maybe around 4-5pm, then dinner about 7pm. I found that I was just standing at the fridge wolfing down chocolate and biscuits at about 4pm when I was flagging. 

In addition to the "extra meal" I've just made sure my house is full of lots of nice protein-y snackable foods, so I've got some vanilla protein powder that I have 1 for breakfast and 1 in the evening, and I cooked up 2kg of chicken breast in some tasty cajun powder, or I'll buy the (more expensive) pre-cooked chicken breasts so I can have a really protein heavy lunch, e.g. a whole chicken breast in a wrap with some salad and cheese, I've also started buying the aldi protein yoghurts which are really nice and healthy.

Before, I was having sugary breakfast cereal, eggs on two slices of toast for lunch (probably more carb than protein), and then loads of sugary snacks in the afternoon and a low-protein meal for dinner.

It certainly feels healthier and more satiating, and I'm slowly and steadily losing weight.

 Adam Lincoln 03 Nov 2021
In reply to jethro kiernan:

> Cut out White bread

> cut out beer and wine

> weight training it doesn’t have to be heavy weights or big muscles but muscle’s burn calories

> no snacks in the shopping basket

> eat nice food in smaller portions 

> more veg.

No inbetweenies  

Just no working offshore at all usually keeps my weight down!

 elsewhere 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> Sounds to me like you're just looking for excuses. 

See the "excuses" below.

> Michael Phelps burned around 12,000 kCal / day training mostly in the swimming pool and the weights room.

Let's see how practical this is for the general population such as OP (I've no reason to think s/he is very unusual). 

A quick google suggests about 60% of the UK population are overweight and UK average calorie consumption is 2,100 kCal per day. Using those for a quick & dirty calculation...

If 60% of the population match the 12,000 kCal intake of Phelps the average calorie intake would quadruple to about 8,000 kCal per day. UK food industry would have to expand by a factor of about 4 in terms of delivering calories. 

The Phelps diet just not practical and not relevant to the general population.

If the Phelps diet were adopted by the overweight worldwide, the poorest would risk being too poor to eat as prices rise in response to massively increased demand.

Similarly 60% of the UK population moving to artic regions is not realistic or desirable, also not realistic or desirable is 60% of the UK population destroying every blade of grass in every local park by dragging tractor tyres.

Something more relevant, realistic and desirable for the 60% overweight people in the general population is modest calorie reduction and modest exercise where possible.
https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/start-the-nhs-weight-loss-plan/

The NHS does not appear to think Olympian style training is worth mentioning to the general population who might view that web page.

Post edited at 12:53
1
 Toerag 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

>  Huge wineglasses?


 fred99 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

1) Eliminate snacking.

2) Do some exercises to change that belly fat into muscle - sit-ups, for example.

3) Don't spend your evenings sat in the armchair.

4) As you get older, expect a slightly increased belly  ( ) - just don't let it take over.

Post edited at 13:34
5
 Jimbo C 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

> 1. Drastic cut down wine consumption (and beer I suppose), maybe to only weekends

> 2.  Cut down on portion size in the evening meal, although when I do that it leads to snacking later

Good ideas. If you can't exercise any more, then eating less is the only way to use up stored fat. You might sometimes need to go to bed feeling a little bit hungry.

> 3. Look at the type of food I'm consuming and cut down on carbs - not quite the keto thingy but a cut down on amount of rice and potatoes and crisps

Not so sure on this one. Less overall calories is what you want, but it only needs to be a small deficit over a long period (like a year). Going on a 'diet' to lose weight quickly could cause a rebound when you stop the 'diet'. Eat food that your body tolerates well, just a small amount less of it.

 Shani 03 Nov 2021
In reply to fred99:

> 2) Do some exercises to change that belly fat into muscle - sit-ups, for example.

Physiologically impossible. Fat cannot turn in to muscle.

> 4) As you get older, expect a slightly increased belly  ( ) - just don't let it take over.

Clarence Bass was ripped and strong in to his 60s. https://www.cbass.com/60PEAK.HTM

Now 84, he's still lean and working out. 

1
 Ciro 03 Nov 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> See the "excuses" below.

> Let's see how practical this is for the general population such as OP (I've no reason to think s/he is very unusual). 

> A quick google suggests about 60% of the UK population are overweight and UK average calorie consumption is 2,100 kCal per day. Using those for a quick & dirty calculation...

> If 60% of the population match the 12,000 kCal intake of Phelps the average calorie intake would quadruple to about 8,000 kCal per day. UK food industry would have to expand by a factor of about 4 in terms of delivering calories. 

> The Phelps diet just not practical and not relevant to the general population.

> If the Phelps diet were adopted by the overweight worldwide, the poorest would risk being too poor to eat as prices rise in response to massively increased demand.

> Similarly 60% of the UK population moving to artic regions is not realistic or desirable, also not realistic or desirable is 60% of the UK population destroying every blade of grass in every local park by dragging tractor tyres.

> Something more relevant, realistic and desirable for the 60% overweight people in the general population is modest calorie reduction and modest exercise where possible.https://www.nhs.uk/live-well/healthy-weight/start-the-nhs-weight-loss-plan/

> The NHS does not appear to think Olympian style training is worth mentioning to the general population who might view that web page.

Sorry, you're right, my bad.

The general population isn't capable of losing weight without modifying their diet.

Those of us who do are very special super-human beings.

Also, there's no spectrum between doing enough training to be a top Olympic athlete, and training to get a bit fitter whilst staying the same size, therefore we should never use the extreme examples of what's possible to help us consider whether we could do a bit more to achieve more modest goals.

Your average person must diet in order to lose weight, as they are genetically inferior to those who can train up to burning twice as many calories a day as they had been prior to deciding to lose weight.

6
In reply to subtle:

Cut out desserts or at least reduce them to a treat, same with crisps / biscuits.  Limit your alcohol intake both in frequency and amount per session.  Keep to at least the same exercise regime as now.

 Adam Lincoln 03 Nov 2021
In reply to fred99:

> 2) Do some exercises to change that belly fat into muscle - sit-ups, for example.


This is just wrong!

You cant change fat into muscle. Your abs are behind this fat. You need to get rid of the fat and you’ll then see your abs. Basic stuff really. 

1
 petemeads 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Adam Lincoln:

Surely if your sit-ups are powered by fat and the muscles are revealed then the effect, although indirect, still stands?

2
 Shani 03 Nov 2021
In reply to petemeads:

> Surely if your sit-ups are powered by fat and the muscles are revealed then the effect, although indirect, still stands?

In the same way as the source of abs is the Big Bang...

1
 Alyson 03 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

My twopence-worth (haven't read the whole thread so apologies if I'm repeating something!) - the best way to make look after your health is to change your habits permanently rather than 'diet' for a set period/to achieve a set goal. Did you know that over 90% of people who lose weight on a diet go on to put it back on again?! The only things which will work in the long term are making changes you can live with. So think realistically about which habits are not serving you well - it could be alcohol, could be takeaways, could be a snack habit. It's also good to promote a positive mindset by thinking about what to add rather than what to take away, eg drink 6-8 glasses of water a day, eat 4 portions of veg a day, add seeds to your breakfast etc. 

Carbs are your body's preferred source of energy, and are important for a healthy diet. Try to consume them as complex carbs from wholegrain sources (like wholemeal bread and wholemeal pasta) rather than simple carbs (like white bread, crisps, white pasta, cakes etc).

Lastly, don't put yourself down if you have a day where you eat something you were intending to avoid. You haven't suddenly adopted bad habits again. The diet mentality encourages people to think of a failure of willpower as some kind of catastrophe. Nothing has changed just because you drank 3 beers and ate a pizza. This is about the long term. Stick with it and good luck!

1
Removed User 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Alyson:

Who says carbs are important to a healthy diet besides outdated government level advice? Either way cutting carbs (and making any carbs you do eat more complex) alongside upping fats is key to reducing appetite and stabilising energy levels.

4
 Alyson 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Removed User:

> Who says carbs are important to a healthy diet besides outdated government level advice?

Any qualified health professional - including a personal trainer, a fitness instructor or a nutritionist for example. You couldn't obtain a qualification in those areas without demonstrating an understanding of the importance of carbohydrates. 

> Either way cutting carbs (and making any carbs you do eat more complex) alongside upping fats is key to reducing appetite and stabilizing energy levels.

It is pretty much impossible to consume the recommended amount of dietary fibre on a low-carbohydrate diet, so your digestive system cannot work optimally. Fibre is also important in inhibiting the digestion and storage of LDL cholesterol (ie it is cardio-protective). Upping saturated fats is still not recommended diet advice, despite what keto-advocates will tell you, though the majority of the population would benefit from increasing their consumption of Omega-3 in particular through healthy fats like walnuts and pumpkin seeds etc.

3
 GEd_83 03 Nov 2021
In reply to Alyson:

There are plenty of qualified health professionals out there, including doctors, fitness instructors, and nutritionists, who advocate a generally low carb, high fat diet, if you cared to look. A lot, perhaps most, elite sport teams (the all blacks for example) take a similar dietary approach now (usually targeted low carb), and I'd say in general they'd have the best professional nutrition advice available. Not to say it's right for everyone of course, if you're morbidly obese then even very small changes, reducing meal sizes, cutting out sweets, alcohol etc will make very big beneficial changes.

For what it's worth I've done low carb high fat and plant-based. On Low carb high fat I always feel amazing, good digestion, lean, loads of energy, no hunger cravings. On the 100% plant-based, whole food diet, I found it pretty easy and actually quite enjoyable (makes you cook up some proper interesting meals), but had to do much more exercise to stay in shape, due to it being a pretty high carb diet by definition. I had to stop in the end anyway as it gave me bad digestive issues.

Post edited at 23:19
1
 aln 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Get a physically demanding job. Before lockdown I was 14 stone, lost my job and gained another half. April this year I started working as a delivery driver, I'm now just over 11. I feel fit healthy and full of energy. 

In reply to elliot.baker:

I certainly found increasing protein intake throughout the day helped massively with kicking my sugar habit. I didn't get hungry and I quickly lost weight. I use My Fitness Pal sometimes to track eating. Although a bit of a blunt instrument, it gives you a rough idea of calorie intake. I find this helpful as I do sometimes mindlessly just eat stuff! Monitoring also allows you to have some of the tasty stuff without over doing it or feeling guilty. Eating regular meals seems to be important for maintaining blood sugar/ fueling exercise/recovery/reducing cravings.

In reply to antdav:

>..... A 500 calorie a day change is a 1lb a week fat loss.

That's not quite right. It would be more accurate to say that 1lb of fat contains roughly 3,500 (500 x 7) calories

 Rog Wilko 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Toerag:

> >  Huge wineglasses?

Reminds me of when a daughter was stuck for a Christmas present so she gave us a pack of red wine glasses. I thought “they look a bit big” so checked the packaging where it said 562ml. “That’s a familiar number” thought I. “That’s a pint!”

OP subtle 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

So, first big change - after training last night the usual Wine Wednesday turned into Lime Cordial Wednesday - have to say, not quite the same but felt better for it this morning (wonder why?)

A few weeks of that should help I suppose.

Oh well, got to shift this paunch somehow.

Removed User 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Alyson:

Some 'health professionals' may well be peddling the importance of carbs, but my point is the diet advice is outdated. I am not sure how high the academic bar is for the likes of personal trainers?!

Look where the official government advice on high carb low fat diets has got the general British population over the last few decades. Low fat products packed full of sugar and othe such abominations.

I'm not advocating extreme keto-type diets, I'm talking about low carb (<100g/day) high fat in which I am fairly sure it is entirely possible to obtain a decent amount of dietary fibre.

More generally science is moving forward on all this stuff - blindly following government advice or 'nutrition professionals' is probably not a sensible approach. Some informed experimentation while monitoring the response from you own body is probably a lot more worthwhile. I think the responses between individuals can be quite variable.

Post edited at 09:36
1
Removed User 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Rog Wilko:

That's a short pint.

 Ciro 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Removed User:

> Look where the official government advice on high carb low fat diets has got the general British population over the last few decades. Low fat products packed full of sugar and othe such abominations.

> I'm not advocating extreme keto-type diets, I'm talking about low carb (<100g/day) high fat in which I am fairly sure it is entirely possible to obtain a decent amount of dietary fibre. 

One problem with this advice is, most people won't be looking at the quality of the fats, will end up with a very high omega 6 to omega 3 ratio in their diet, causing the same sort of inflammatory issues as the low fat high sugar crap that's been peddled for years, leading to the same poor coronary health, etc.

If you can afford to be eating lots of grass fed beef and wild salmon it'll be a fairly healthy diet, but if you're eating a lot of intensively reared meat it won't be.

It's much cheaper and easier to have a healthy whole foods diet that's based mainly on plants and carbs, than a healthy high fat diet.

Another problem is that high fat diets (in our modern western societies) tend to be quite bad for the planet.

 Shani 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Ciro:

> Another problem is that high fat diets (in our modern western societies) tend to be quite bad for the planet.

That argument can be made against plant-based food as well. The polytunnel wastelands in Southern Europe, the barren dust storms in the US, desertification in the Middle East, food miles from out of season fruits flown in to the UK, pesticides, fungicides and herbicides washed in to our water system, eutrophication from nutrient leaching....

 Ciro 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Shani:

> That argument can be made against plant-based food as well. The polytunnel wastelands in Southern Europe, the barren dust storms in the US, desertification in the Middle East, food miles from out of season fruits flown in to the UK, pesticides, fungicides and herbicides washed in to our water system, eutrophication from nutrient leaching....

OK, l will rephrase:

Another problem is that high fat diets (in our modern western societies) tend to be worse for the planet than the alternatives (which are admittedly still far from ideal).

My personal opinion is that we could farm in reasonably sustainable manner including livestock, using more traditional methods of rounds of crop rotation followed by animal grazing to restore the soil, but we couldn't support anything like the current consumption levels of meat in that way.

The current practice of using land for widespread monocultural animal feed planting is the worst of all worlds.

1
 Huddy 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I would highly recommend reading this -The Diet Myth: The Real Science Behind What We Eat https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1780229003/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_HT8EAFDS...

Written by Prof Secptor (the guy behind the C-19 covid tracker app which identified loss of smell as symptom) and he highlights why in nearly all cases diets fail after a couple of months.

the take home message from the book is eat normally and diverse diet - and cut out processed products. 

 dread-i 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Shani:

> That argument can be made against plant-based food as well. The polytunnel wastelands in Southern Europe, the barren dust storms in the US, desertification in the Middle East, food miles from out of season fruits flown in to the UK, pesticides, fungicides and herbicides washed in to our water system, eutrophication from nutrient leaching....

That's a bit of a straw man. One could make a similar argument for factory farming. You could sum it up as 'lots of modern food production methods are bad for the environment'.

You may be rich enough to afford a steak, from a cow with a name, lovingly raised on verdant pastures. A lot of people just want a burger, 'cos the kids are hungry, or they dont have the time / money / cooking skills.

 Alyson 04 Nov 2021
In reply to GEd_83:

> There are plenty of qualified health professionals out there, including doctors, fitness instructors, and nutritionists, who advocate a generally low carb, high fat diet, if you cared to look.

Perhaps I should have qualified this a little. In order to obtain the qualification in the first place you have to sit a nutrition exam, and in order to pass that nutrition exam you have to demonstrate that you know and understand the importance of carbohydrate as a macronutrient and how it supports the body's functions.

> A lot, perhaps most, elite sport teams (the all blacks for example) take a similar dietary approach now (usually targeted low carb), and I'd say in general they'd have the best professional nutrition advice available.

I'm struggling to find evidence for this, but you could be right. However they are trying to achieve optimal sports performance rather than optimal health/longevity and have the advantage of being monitored closely. They are the guinea pigs, if you like, for low-carb diets and our understanding of the health implications for virtually cutting out an entire macronutrient. There is not currently any good rigorously-checked scientific basis for advocating a low-carbohydrate diet as general health advice.

> For what it's worth I've done low carb high fat and plant-based. On Low carb high fat I always feel amazing, good digestion, lean, loads of energy, no hunger cravings. On the 100% plant-based, whole food diet, I found it pretty easy and actually quite enjoyable (makes you cook up some proper interesting meals), but had to do much more exercise to stay in shape, due to it being a pretty high carb diet by definition. I had to stop in the end anyway as it gave me bad digestive issues.

If you had to do more exercise then you were consuming more calories. Also I would point out that a 100% plant-based diet is not a recommended approach either! Unless it is very carefully planned, you can easily miss out on some of the 8 essential amino acids (the ones our bodies cannot make).

 Forest Dump 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Huddy:

Great book that! I'm looking forward to the Zoe diet app being launched here in the UK. It would make a good wellbeing / self care investment as a one off

To the op, more & more of the science is indicating that everyone is different, gut biomes too, and that these influence appetite and weight gain / loss.

That said, excess, nutritionally poor carbs seems a good place to start 

 GEd_83 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Alyson:

> There are plenty of qualified health professionals out there, including doctors, fitness instructors, and nutritionists, who advocate a generally low carb, high fat diet, if you cared to look.

Perhaps I should have qualified this a little. In order to obtain the qualification in the first place you have to sit a nutrition exam, and in order to pass that nutrition exam you have to demonstrate that you know and understand the importance of carbohydrate as a macronutrient and how it supports the body's functions.

Sorry, I didn't word my response too well either. I'm definitely not saying carbs are not vitally important, they absolutely are, my personal approach is 'generally' low carb high fat (not as extreme as keto usually), and I adjust carb intake to very roughly match my activity levels. If I'm in the mountains all week, I'll eat lots of healthy carbs. Similarly, if I had a very active job, you'd simply have to have quite a lot of carbs. In between exercise, and being out on the hills, my lifestyle due to my job is relatively sedentary, and so on inactive days high fat low carb does work really well. So in a nutshell, targeted high fat low carb (adjusting carb intake to suit activity level) works well for me, and has done consistently over a few years now (sounds a bit of a ball ache to do, but it's really not, I don't really think about it I just do everything very roughly, no calorie counting).

Post edited at 15:32
 1poundSOCKS 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Alyson:

> Perhaps I should have qualified this a little. In order to obtain the qualification in the first place you have to sit a nutrition exam, and in order to pass that nutrition exam you have to demonstrate that you know and understand the importance of carbohydrate as a macronutrient and how it supports the body's functions.

Lots of professionals do agree with you, but I suspect this isn't based on good evidence and has become the mantra.

As far as I can tell from my own digging, carbs are non-essential for good health. Our body burns them as a priority because we have a very limited capacity to store glycogen, compared to fat. Since we can create glycogen from fat, I'm not sure what eating carbs will provide that is essential and can't be obtained elsewhere?

Having said that, it's hard to cut through all the bad science and bad faith actors and be sure what the truth is.

1
 Shani 04 Nov 2021
In reply to dread-i:

> That's a bit of a straw man. One could make a similar argument for factory farming. You could sum it up as 'lots of modern food production methods are bad for the environment'. A lot of people just want a burger, 'cos the kids are hungry, or they dont have the time / money / cooking skills.

You've hit the nail on the head; it's the METHOD of farming that is crucial be it arable or pastoral.

If you want biodiversity you cannot beat arable though. Way more flora & fauna can share pastoral land than a monocropped field because arablism comoetes lower down the food chain.

 Alyson 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Removed User:

> Some 'health professionals' may well be peddling the importance of carbs, but my point is the diet advice is outdated. I am not sure how high the academic bar is for the likes of personal trainers?!

To obtain a recognised qualification as a personal trainer you need to pass exams in anatomy, nutrition and delivering exercise programmes to achieve particular outcomes. You would fail the nutrition exams if you didn't recommend that your clients obtain around 50% of their calories from carbohydrate, as this advice is supported by all the leading professional dietary and nutritional bodies. This approach is science-based, and if new science emerges and is rigorously tested and proved to be the better approach for general health then the advice will alter accordingly. 

> Look where the official government advice on high carb low fat diets has got the general British population over the last few decades. Low fat products packed full of sugar and othe such abominations.

You are correct that a low-fat approach coupled with the rise of processed foods led to an increase in the consumption of sugar and poor health outcomes. This advice changed quite some time ago.

> I'm not advocating extreme keto-type diets, I'm talking about low carb (<100g/day) high fat in which I am fairly sure it is entirely possible to obtain a decent amount of dietary fibre.

You certainly couldn't obtain the optimal or recommended amount of dietary fibre with that approach.

> More generally science is moving forward on all this stuff - blindly following government advice or 'nutrition professionals' is probably not a sensible approach. Some informed experimentation while monitoring the response from you own body is probably a lot more worthwhile. I think the responses between individuals can be quite variable.

Funnily enough you sound very anti-science, as you happily dismiss professionals and 'the government' as if you think Boris Johnson sits down in the evening to write Food Standards advice. You may want to experiment on your own body but you should probably stop short of advising others to do so, and I don't see why this would be 'more worthwhile' than eating what is recognised as a healthy, balanced diet.

1
 colinakmc 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

I found using the MyFitnessPal app to log my food intake was helpful on two levels - first of all it made me think if I’ve got to log that second biscuit, maybe I’ll not bother eating it - and secondly it gave me feedback about my diet balance. I found initially I wasn’t eating enough protein for my activity level.

it also made me realise, gradually, that my portion control was rubbish…on the calories it was counting the weight should have been plummeting whereas in real life it crept off.

Strength sessions in the gym might help a bit too, by increasing your metabolism.

Cutting out booze during the week could be a really good thing in a whole lot of ways, by helping your liver and reducing your risk of a multitude of life changing ailments with proven links to alcohol.

Good luck!

Post edited at 16:11
 Trangia 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

All of those.

Another tip is to buddy up with someone else trying to lose weight, keep in touch and egg each other on, particularly when, as will happen, the novelty starts to wear off and temptation hovers. Even better if you are in a relationship, so you are doing it together, and neither wants to be the first to give in

My wife and I started doing a half hour stretching routine every morning, in addition to normal day to day activities, at the beginning of the first lockdown - it's become as boring as hell, but we are still doing it and feel fit because of it!

 deepsoup 04 Nov 2021
In reply to aln:

> I feel fit healthy and full of energy. 

Away on a tangent to the thread, but it's good to hear you're doing well.  I guess getting a new job does fit the definition of 'sustainable lifestyle change'.

An occasional work colleague of mine was quite portly back at the start of 2020, but found himself out of work on account of the pandemic and has spent the last year and a half as a full-time postie.  He's a racing snake now, having walked 15-20 miles almost every weekday since he got the job.

 Rog Wilko 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Removed User:

> That's a short pint.

Did I get the number wrong? Wouldn’t be surprised. 

 Shani 04 Nov 2021
In reply to Shani:

> You've hit the nail on the head; it's the METHOD of farming that is crucial be it arable or pastoral.

> If you want biodiversity you cannot beat pastoral though. Way more flora & fauna can share pastoral land than a monocropped field because arablism competes lower down the food chain.

Resubmitted with corrections.

 ThunderCat 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

You know, I was thinking about this. Since my "year off the booze" thing where I lost nearly four stone, the old habits have crept back a bit and I've put over a stone on again.

I was thinking about starting a lard club thread to keep myself focused. Try and get others involved as a bit of buddy support.

Would you be game? 

 Sam Beaton 04 Nov 2021

> You are correct that a low-fat approach coupled with the rise of processed foods led to an increase in the consumption of sugar and poor health outcomes. This advice changed quite some time ago.

> You certainly couldn't obtain the optimal or recommended amount of dietary fibre with that approach.

So is it the case that veg and other whole foods high in fibre are generally also high in carbs? Is what we call dietary fibre just complex long chain carbs that we can't digest?

 aln 04 Nov 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Away on a tangent to the thread, but it's good to hear you're doing well.  

Thanks, I appreciate that. It's been a slog getting here but I'm glad I didn't give up. 9 months ago I wasn't sure I'd still be here TBH. But I'm enjoying life again and glad I didn't follow through on some of the thoughts I was having. 

 Albert Tatlock 04 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

A really good diet but I would not recommend it is the divorce diet, lost 4 stone in 3 months and lots of money at the same time.

The weight eventually returned but sadly not the cash 

In reply to Wide_Mouth_Frog:

> >..... A 500 calorie a day change is a 1lb a week fat loss.

> That's not quite right. It would be more accurate to say that 1lb of fat contains roughly 3,500 (500 x 7) calories

Although you aren't literally losing a pound of fat.

In reply to Ciro:

> OK, l will rephrase:

> Another problem is that high fat diets (in our modern western societies) tend to be worse for the planet than the alternatives (which are admittedly still far from ideal).

> My personal opinion is that we could farm in reasonably sustainable manner including livestock, using more traditional methods of rounds of crop rotation followed by animal grazing to restore the soil, but we couldn't support anything like the current consumption levels of meat in that way.

> The current practice of using land for widespread monocultural animal feed planting is the worst of all worlds.

Just the problem of the demand for ever greater volume at ever lower cost to be dealt with...

In reply to subtle:

Not read the whole thread so this might have been mentioned already...

It might not just be fat. It is likely inflammation of the gut as well, almost certainly from the alcohol and processed food consumption aggravating your gut wall. You might notice a flatter belly quite quickly if you drop these from your diet, without actually losing much weight. 

One very cheap and easy tip to help this is to brew your own water (or milk) kefir at home and drink daily. I do this and have noticed a huge difference in virtually zero bloating, zero farting, strengthened immune system and far more energy and mental positivity. Inflammation is one of the biggest fights your body is taking on daily, and most western diets make this a constant "under the radar" battle for us to fight. It's under the radar because most of us just live with it and assume it's "just how it is" because the side effects are not that much of an issue (until you deal with them and realise what normal actually feels like)

If you are interested in this its this easy...I bought some water kefir grains from a website and just add water, sugar, a drop of lemon juice and some raisins. Leave it for 48 hours and strain and I have a delicious, fizzy kefir which I keep in the fridge. Rinse and repeat. only cost is sugar and raisins (the kefir feed on the sugar so the end product is not like a soft drink)

Obviously, try to cut out as much consumption that is causing inflammation as well, this is not a panacea

4
Removed User 05 Nov 2021
In reply to Alyson:

> Funnily enough you sound very anti-science, as you happily dismiss professionals and 'the government' as if you think Boris Johnson sits down in the evening to write Food Standards advice. You may want to experiment on your own body but you should probably stop short of advising others to do so, and I don't see why this would be 'more worthwhile' than eating what is recognised as a healthy, balanced diet.

If you think Government advice is the same as 'science' I think you must have had you head in the ground for the last two years. Government advice is a mixture of science (which is very uncertain around diet -  because it is very hard to design experiments to prove outcomes with the large well-controlled cohorts required to provide a decent level of statistical certainty) and other inputs e.g. lobbying from various groups (commercial or otherwise). There are also long lead times with any changes to government advice from the cutting edge understanding.

We've already agreed that previous government advice on low fat diets was poor - what makes you so certain we've achieved the gold standard of understanding around diet at this point in time? Any cursory glance at literature on this stuff shows at the very least there is huge uncertainty and you'd be crazy assume anything was set in stone. The debate on cholestrol, the discovery of leptin/grehlin (in the late 1990s) and subsequent understanding of their impact on food intake (mid 2000s) coupled with our emerging understanding of the microbiome and carb-induced inflammation are all examples that show we have a lot to learn and the debate is constantly moving.

You're more than welcome to take government dietary advice as sage, but I think my recommendation for informed experimentation is equally good. One of the hardest things about losing weight is dealing with appetite as the bodies calorie 'want' setpoint takes time to change and willpower is a limited resource. Cutting down carbs and minimising the spiking of insulin will undoubtedly reduce appetite, maintain blood sugar levels and cut down on hunger. Will you get your government recommended dietary fibre quota this way? Maybe not, but what is more unhealthy being overweight or only managing 1/2 of the 'government recommended' dietary fibre intake?

In summary I eat twice a day. I miss breakfast and I try and keep carbs fairly low at lunch. In the evening I usually eat what I want. I eat virtually no sugar. Some days this will equate to a typical HFLC diet, some days less so. I find this easy to maintain and supplies a gentle weight loss currently though I have a fairly sedentary job and am only cycling to work twice a week.

Post edited at 09:26
1
OP subtle 05 Nov 2021
In reply to ThunderCat:

Shame that your old habits are now leading to you putting on a stone again - is it just the fact you have started drinking again or is there other things that have led to this (and I dont mean you are excessively drinking, perhaps snacking more, not exercising as much etc?)

I reckon I have to lose 6kg/ a stone and I will be happy with that, hence my thoughts that if I just cut out my Wine Wednesday, and cut down on the carb consumption (reduce, not cut out) and reduce portion size then that would do it for me - week 1 and I seem to have managed so far  

If there was a lard club thread then that would help me to be focused I suppose - would also help when I (no doubt) occasionally fall off the new lifestyle choice (its not called a diet afterall)

Go for it and I would contribute - as long as it doesn't turn out like the Fitness Club threads that were popular for a while  - is that still on the go?  

 Shani 05 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

6kg to lose? What's you current BF%?

For men, getting below 10% takes a bit of discipline, but getting under 15% can be done by following much of the advice above (cut drinking to once a week - moderate volumes), eat simple, unprocessed foods, no snacking, have a treat day, ensure adequate protein (2g per kg lean body mass), a boiled egg is better than cereal for satiety/satiation. Walk for 30 mins a day on non-climbing/training days. Get adequate sleep.

If you want to get under 10% BF then I'm happy to partner up on a bodynazi-focused peer-training thread!

OP subtle 05 Nov 2021
In reply to Shani:

> 6kg to lose? What's you current BF%?

> If you want to get under 10% BF then I'm happy to partner up on a bodynazi-focused peer-training thread!

Meh, I just know that my "ideal weight, to me" is probably 6kg less than what I currently am - it has slipped to this over the last year or so, hence I want to lose it.

According to the BMI stuff I should lose a bit more (not a lot though) but when I've tried it before I was too focused on that as opposed to living a happy life - if I lose the 6kg now I reckon I will be happy enough.

I exercise almost daily, it just that in the last year these additional 6kgs have crept on hence the thought that I should lose them - stopping Wine Wednesday is an easy one to stop I guess (well, Ive managed week 1 so far) - not going to get too obsessed with the whole weight loss thing, its just a target that I am aiming for 

 ThunderCat 05 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Just a combination of laziness and gluttony I think.  Managed to hurt my leg, and my shoulder so the gym has been on hold.  But I'm eager to start again after seeing the scales this morning,

One last night of debauchery tonight, and then I'm on it!

Keep an eye out for the thread.

OP subtle 05 Nov 2021
In reply to ThunderCat:

> Just a combination of laziness and gluttony I think.  Managed to hurt my leg, and my shoulder so the gym has been on hold.  But I'm eager to start again after seeing the scales this morning,

Always did think the gym was where folk injured themselves - hope its not too bad

> One last night of debauchery tonight, and then I'm on it!

Ooft, someone sounds like they are on a promise!

> Keep an eye out for the thread.

Will do, enjoy the weekend then start the thread on Monday.

 Pete Pozman 06 Nov 2021
In reply to subtle:

Intermittent fasting. 8 hours when you allow yourself to eat and 16 hours "fasting". 2/3 meals, no snacks. Leave the drink alone. Fill up with water. Build up to at least 50 push-ups/day. Plus all the stuff people like us do: climbing, hillwalking etc. I amazed my wife, who didn't believe I had the willpower. But to be honest an eight hour window seemed plenty of time and I was enjoying my eating more. Oh and I lost a stone and a half in a month. 

 oureed 06 Nov 2021

In reply:

Reading through this thread I was wondering if I should cut down on my evening beer. Luckily Google was there to inform me that a half litre of beer has 184 calories, a half litre of oat milk has 225. I know what I'd rather relax in front of the telly with!

 Robert Durran 07 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> As you said, in rice/pasta based meals, increase the proportion of veg and reduce the proportion of rice/pasta.  I've done this by finding suitable measuring cups - a shot glass for rice.

Bloody hell! Just looked up the capacity of a shot glass, I have a coffee mug, heaped if I'm hungry. That's about five times aa much!

 Neil Williams 07 Nov 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

> Bloody hell! Just looked up the capacity of a shot glass, I have a coffee mug, heaped if I'm hungry. That's about five times aa much!

That is about 400g worth or a massive 548 calories (just checked the packet) before you even put sauce on it!

It is to be fair a fairly big shot glass, probably a 35 rather than 25ml measure, but still

Post edited at 21:32
 Robert Durran 07 Nov 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

> That is about 400g worth or a massive 548 calories.

Just feels normal to me. 


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