/ Are we really doing this

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Murderous_Crow - on 02 Feb 2019

Brexit. It's giving me sleepless nights. We are stumbling toward a calamity. 

Even if Leave is the right thing to do, it can't be done like this. A mess. Undemocratic, illegally influenced. Planned on the back of Nigel Farage's fag packet, and propped up by religious fundamentalist thugs.

Put shit in, get shit out. 

Let's hope our MPs see sense. Write to them if you care. 

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Murderous_Crow - on 02 Feb 2019
bouldery bits - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

That'll fix it! I'm sure....

 

Why would I waste my time?

Politicians are uniformly self serving.

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Murderous_Crow - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> That'll fix it! I'm sure....

They're supposed to listen to their constituents.

> Why would I waste my time?

They're supposed to listen to their constituents.

> Politicians are uniformly self serving.

They're supposed to listen to their constituents.

If enough constituents show them that their support is not unconditional, they will listen, as an MP's ability to serve (themselves or others) is dependent on their status as elected representatives. Citizens exercise their power by voting, and can advise their MP of their intention to vote if they so wish. Strange concept these days, but it used to be known as the democratic process. 

Post edited at 11:55
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Tringa on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

Agree, but I wouldn't hold your breath while waiting for our MPs to see sense.

 

Dave

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Pursued by a bear - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

My MP is Jacob Rees-Mogg.

I'll not waste the ink 

T.

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bouldery bits - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

> They're supposed to listen to their constituents.

> They're supposed to listen to their constituents.

> They're supposed to listen to their constituents.

And they do - when it's in their own interest. 

Dispicable wonberjockeys. The lot of em. 

 

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Andy Hardy on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I've already tried, but Mary Robinson does not have a spine. She is Tory central office lobby fodder (2nd class)

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Murderous_Crow - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

Fair enough. 

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Murderous_Crow - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to Andy Hardy:

At least you tried, fair play. 

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Robert Durran - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Politicians are uniformly self serving.

Simply not true - the vast majority of all colours are in it to make a positive difference. Having said that, it must be very hard to do the "right thing" when it might mean you get deselected or lose your job. The trouble is that doing "the right thing" on Brexit is, for quite a few, against the "will" of their constituents.

 

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captain paranoia - on 02 Feb 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Why would I waste my time?

Because it's one part of the democratic process that you can influence outside of elections. It will be more effective than moaning on an obscure website.

I've written to mine. He responded, and is taking an active interest.

You need to stress their future relies on your vote (even if you didn't vote for them...)

Post edited at 13:42
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r0x0r.wolfo - on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

All the more reason to write I think. He'll certainly be getting letters from Brexiteers and probably lives largely in his own echo chamber. 

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Toccata on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

Write to one’s MP? My sister is one of the 77% remain voters in Kate Hoey’s constituency. I’ll ask her to write.

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stevieb - on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I’m in Ken Clarke’s constituency. I think he made his mind up on this a while ago. 

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johncook - on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I wrote to my MP. Apparently the MP's constituents are not educated enough to know their own minds so the MP will know it for them.

This is apparently how this MP believes democracy works. The constituents vote for something and the MP can do just as they please and blame the constituents for being stupid.  The vote in this constituency was approx. 65/35. Hope the voters remember they are stupid and wrong and stay at home next time this MP wants their support in an election. I know of many who have changed party!

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payney1973 - on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I am neutral on this, however if they are 'supposed to listen BLAH BLAH!' why are so many MPs that supposedly voted to remain yet have in excess of 60% of their constituents  voted leave completely ignoring that fact?

Again you could argue that it is the remain side with all of the BREXIT derailment tactics that have left us in such a vulnerable position.

Again I am neutral, but I believe in the democratic vote, on both sides they are millions of miles away from the original vote, both sides have lost what ever minute molecules of trust that the electorate once had in them! depressing really!!

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Ian W - on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to payney1973:

> Again you could argue that it is the remain side with all of the BREXIT derailment tactics that have left us in such a vulnerable position.

What derailment tactics? Theresa May and her team negotiated a withdrawal agreement that satisfies the referendum result. There has been no stomach in the commons for cancelling article 50, so what is there left to argue about? remainers, myself included will hope to the last moment that A50 is revoked, but i'm afraid all the current delay / argument is being caused by those who have their own vision of brexit. as was said several times; brexit means brexit, and the deal she was mandated to come up with satisfies that. Having had it agreed with the EU27, the fact it was voted down by her own party was cringeworthy and embarrassing in the extreme. Its all very well telling us losers and remainers that we have to go along with the majority "will of the people", but then to turn against your party leader when she has indeed managed to agree a deal that satisfies the referendum result in this fashion is simply pathetic.

> Again I am neutral, but I believe in the democratic vote, on both sides they are millions of miles away from the original vote, both sides have lost what ever minute molecules of trust that the electorate once had in them! depressing really!!

Yup, can't argue with that.

 

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wercat on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to payney1973:

> Again you could argue that it is the remain side with all of the BREXIT derailment tactics that have left us in such a vulnerable position.

You could indeed but it wouldn't make it right or even truthful.

What has definitely happened is that a radical change of direction against the national interested has been forced on us as the result of an opinion sample that showed that those who voted were split almost equally.   That, and the interpretation of the sample by a stubborn, unrealistic, blinkered and egotistical PM acting to the will of a fascistic group of Brexiteers in her party is what has got us into this fine mess.

 

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stevieb - on 03 Feb 2019
In reply to payney1973:

> Again you could argue that it is the remain side with all of the BREXIT derailment tactics that have left us in such a vulnerable position.

Don’t you lay any of the blame at the door of brexit mps and proponents who have still not defined a workable brexit plan? Despite being in critical government roles or having significant funding behind them? Don’t you think they should have moved beyond catchphrases by now? 

There was a reasonable and considered plan - flexcit - before the referendum, but it is widely ignored because it shows how slow and difficult the whole thing is https://dominiccummings.com/2015/06/23/on-the-referendum-6-exit-plans-and-a-second-referendum/

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Phil Anderson on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

Thanks for the link - I've just written to my MP.

Unfortunately my MP is Jeremy Hunt, who made up his mind about Brexit a long time ago, then made up his mind all over again a little later when it became politically expedient for him to do so. What a class act.

Suffice it to say that I don't feel he attaches any importance whatsoever to the views of his constituents sadly.

At least I've had my say.

Post edited at 11:21
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gravy - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to bouldery bits:

Normally writing to an MP is quite a good way to make yourself heard.  Apparently 80 letters is an indication of very grave concern (that's about 0.1% of the constituency).

However, I suspect most MPs simply put any letter straight in the bin at the moment such is the general brexit mood.

However, you should still waste your time on this - governance by apathy and disengagement is one of the factors that left us in this steaming pile of shit - be less apathetic and defeatist and write to your MP even if it is a waste of your time.

It's much better to write an actually letter.  Don't bother writing an essay - two sentences to say what you think is enough.

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jkarran - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to payney1973:

> I am neutral on this, however if they are 'supposed to listen BLAH BLAH!' why are so many MPs that supposedly voted to remain yet have in excess of 60% of their constituents  voted leave completely ignoring that fact?

Interesting, you don't sound very neutral. You abstained in 2016?

Your MP is your representative, not your personal mouthpiece. It's quite possible and legitimate for them to listen to your views, be informed by them but to disagree, even where you are in a majority.

This 'I'm neutral' thing seems to be cropping up more commonly. I don't get it especially from rabid leavers like John Yates it was just absurd. I presume he figured it conferred some additional gravitas, gave him and his arguments an air of scholarly disinterest. I guess it also puts some limited distance between individuals and the coming disaster they may have contributed to and may still be arguing for.

> Again you could argue that it is the remain side with all of the BREXIT derailment tactics that have left us in such a vulnerable position.

You could try but you'd look pretty silly when you got to the taking questions part of your delivery.

> Again I am neutral, but I believe in the democratic vote, on both sides they are millions of miles away from the original vote, both sides have lost what ever minute molecules of trust that the electorate once had in them! depressing really!!

Both sides of what? There are plenty of politicians still working diligently for the interests of their constituents and the nation as is their job in a representative democracy.

Democracy is a process, it is perfectly reasonable and democratic for an electorate or a government to change its mind in response to new information and or changed circumstances.

jk

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MonkeyPuzzle - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Phil Anderson:

> Thanks for the link - I've just written to my MP.

> Unfortunately my MP is Jeremy Hunt, who made up his mind about Brexit a long time ago, then made up his mind all over again a little later when it became politically expedient for him to do so. What a class act.

If I was Jeremy Hunt, I'd less read my mail but rather carry out controlled explosions on it.

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Murderous_Crow - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to wercat:

> What has definitely happened is that a radical change of direction against the national interested has been forced on us as the result of an opinion sample that showed that those who voted were split almost equally.   That, and the interpretation of the sample by a stubborn, unrealistic, blinkered and egotistical PM acting to the will of a fascistic group of Brexiteers in her party is what has got us into this fine mess.

Accurate and concise. 

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Bob Kemp - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to jkarran:

> Again I am neutral, but I believe in the democratic vote, on both sides they are millions of miles away from the original vote, both sides have lost what ever minute molecules of trust that the electorate once had in them! depressing really!!

>Both sides of what? There are plenty of politicians still working diligently for the interests of their constituents and the nation as is their job in a representative democracy.

Absolutely. They're not all self-serving incompetents, although the latter seem to have floated to the top recently. The media focus on individuals in political life makes it easier to pin the blame on the people who represent us rather than look at the ways in which the current democracy isn't working. The problems are structural, as we've discussed elsewhere. 

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john arran - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to payney1973:

> Again you could argue that it is the remain side with all of the BREXIT derailment tactics that have left us in such a vulnerable position.

Hard to see how it's possible to derail a mirage.

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Pete Pozman - on 06 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I've written; a carefully worded, reflective and respectful letter. All I got back was some generic tory pap. My MP is a career politician who will vote for sense if he sees advantage for himself. Otherwise he'll be ducking and weaving but mostly keeping his head down. Whatever happens he'll emerge blameless I'm sure.

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oldie - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

> They're supposed to listen to their constituents....<> If enough constituents show them that their support is not unconditional, they will listen, as an MP's ability to serve (themselves or others) is dependent on their status as elected representatives. <

They probably listen more to their local party members. Tory activists are unfortunately mainly strongly pro Brexit and against a second referendum.

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Baron Weasel - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to Pursued by a bear:

> My MP is Jacob Rees-Mogg.

> I'll not waste the ink 

> T.

Have you got a bullet instead?

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jkarran - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to Baron Weasel:

> Have you got a bullet instead?

While I appreciate your frustration and that it's no doubt meant in jest there's been more than enough of that already.

jk

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Pursued by a bear - on 07 Feb 2019
In reply to jkarran:

Indeed.  Jo Cox isn't forgotten.

T.

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Ian W:

> What derailment tactics? Theresa May and her team negotiated a withdrawal agreement that satisfies the referendum result. There has been no stomach in the commons for cancelling article 50, so what is there left to argue about? remainers, myself included will hope to the last moment that A50 is revoked, but i'm afraid all the current delay / argument is being caused by those who have their own vision of brexit. as was said several times; brexit means brexit, and the deal she was mandated to come up with satisfies that. Having had it agreed with the EU27, the fact it was voted down by her own party was cringeworthy and embarrassing in the extreme. Its all very well telling us losers and remainers that we have to go along with the majority "will of the people", but then to turn against your party leader when she has indeed managed to agree a deal that satisfies the referendum result in this fashion is simply pathetic.

++++++++++++++++++++++

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

The problem is that all along this process we've been told by utter idiots on both sides that there would be a total fudge, it's all a negotiation, nothing will really change, we'll end up half in half out, and blah, and blah... 

Idiots.

The British public and its politicians are sleepwalking into a no-deal brexit that will be extremely harmful to them because of their failure to imagine it could happen. Despite the cold hard fact that this is and always was the default position.

Post edited at 15:29
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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> The problem is that all along this process we've been told by utter idiots on both sides that there would be a total fudge, it's all a negotiation, nothing will really change, we'll end up half in half out, and blah, and blah... 

> Idiots.

Yeah, what a load of utter idiots, why would anyone think it'd end up in a fudge? EU's quite clear on stuff, same rules for everyone...

Except the UK's membership of the union has always been a fudge. UK opted out of Schengen, Economic and monetary union, area of freedom, security and justice and the charter of fundamental rights of the European Union. On top of this the deal May was originally offered was a fudge, satisfying neither remainers nor hard Brexiteers. 

So given that the UK has already had 45 years of a fudged relationship with the EU, only an utter idiot would expect total clarity in the divorce proceedings.

Edit: for unsatisfied retainers.

Post edited at 16:20
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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Yeah, what a load of utter idiots, why would anyone think it'd end up in a fudge? EU's quite clear on stuff, same rules for everyone...

As usual you didn't READ.
It's not stupid to think that it might end up in a fudge. It may well still be the case.  What's really stupjd is to think that it will end up with a fudge by itself, whatever we do.

> So given that the UK has already had 45 years of a fudged relationship with the EU, only an utter idiot would expect total clarity in the divorce proceedings.

Indeed, only an utter idiot would think that way. Someone with half a brain would recognise that things changes.

It's typical of our political class. They are sitting there flabbergasted, doing nothing, just hoping everything will be alright. They just cannot process it.

At least those behind Brexit and the ERG have been a lot smarter than the rest of them, they could see the shifting tectonic plates, whilst, as far as I can see, most remainers are still completely deluded.

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> As usual you didn't READ.

No, I did read it, it's just that your original post was badly thought out prompting a substantial shift of position in your second post as you backtracked while seeking to maintain that was what you meant all along.

> It's not stupid to think that it might end up in a fudge. It may well still be the case.  What's really stupjd is to think that it will end up with a fudge by itself, whatever we do.

End up a fudge by itself? This particular round of fudging has numerous incompetent authors.

> Indeed, only an utter idiot would think that way. Someone with half a brain would recognise that things changes.

You'd hope.

> It's typical of our political class. They are sitting there flabbergasted, doing nothing, just hoping everything will be alright. They just cannot process it.

Again Rom, there's all sorts of activity, pronouncements and desperate flying to and fro. They're hardly sitting on their hands.

> At least those behind Brexit and the ERG have been a lot smarter than the rest of them, they could see the shifting tectonic plates, whilst, as far as I can see, most remainers are still completely deluded.

No shortage of delusion all round, much shortage of comprehension as to how interdependent our economies are following decades of cooperation.

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Richard Wheeldon - on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

… yep; its 2019 and yep, we're really doing this, but look on the bright side... at least the Tory party will live to fight another day... after all, that's why we're really doing this...!!!

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> No, I did read it, it's just that your original post was badly thought out prompting a substantial shift of position in your second post as you backtracked while seeking to maintain that was what you meant all along.

Nope, I've re-read it, and it was crystal clear and accurate :

"The British public and its politicians are sleepwalking into a no-deal brexit that will be extremely harmful to them because of their failure to imagine it could happen. Despite the cold hard fact that this is and always was the default position."

You just did not read properly.

Post edited at 17:03
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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Again Rom, there's all sorts of activity, pronouncements and desperate flying to and fro. They're hardly sitting on their hands.

I'll give you that they are very good at throwing their arms in the air. Not very good at anything else.
Nothing has fundamentally changed. in two years the UK parliament still don't know what they want, they are unable to get Brexit sorted and vote for a deal. Now they want "alternative arrangements" but nobody agrees on what those are. Basically same situation as before.

The only thing that moved position is the hand of the clock

Post edited at 17:08
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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> No shortage of delusion all round, much shortage of comprehension as to how interdependent our economies are following decades of cooperation.

No, I'm sure most understand that, even the hardcore brexiteers (breaking those relations is part of their ethno-nationalist purist dream). The problem is that many still think it's unconceivable that those interdependencies would be broken, because it would be crazy to break them.

But guess what crazy stuff happens, and crazier stuff has happened.

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> ....breaking those relations is part of their ethno-nationalist purist dream

Ethno-nationalist purist dream? I can only imagine that you made friends with some extremely hardcore Scots Nats during your time in Edinburgh. Such views in this country would represent the most minuscule of lunatic fringes and their political clout would amount to zero.

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Nope, I've re-read it, and it was crystal clear and accurate :

> "The British public and its politicians are sleepwalking into a no-deal brexit that will be extremely harmful to them because of their failure to imagine it could happen. Despite the cold hard fact that this is and always was the default position."

> You just did not read properly.

Yeah, Rom you've just quoted the part I didn't question and ignored the first part of your post that I did question. Do you have some sort of a weird aversion to honest debate?

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Yeah, Rom you've just quoted the part I didn't question and ignored the first part of your post that I did question. Do you have some sort of a weird aversion to honest debate?

You didn't question the second part, because you did not read it, if you had, you would have realised that your questioning of the first part made no sense.

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Ethno-nationalist purist dream? I can only imagine that you made friends with some extremely hardcore Scots Nats during your time in Edinburgh. Such views in this country would represent the most minuscule of lunatic fringes and their political clout would amount to zero.

I would like you to be correct, but I don't think you are.

Just look at how the country has been treating foreigners for the past 5 years. Ask foreigners, in particular EU citizens living in the UK, how they are made to feel in this country at the moment.
This is not a margin phenomenon. This is BIG and impacts millions of people.

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Just look at how the country has been treating foreigners for the past 5 years. Ask foreigners, in particular EU citizens living in the UK, how they are made to feel in this country at the moment.

Actions speak louder than words Rom. Any idea how many foreign nationals immigrated into the UK last year? 467,000! According to your much repeated narrative they're all fleeing into repression and discrimination, surely a first in human history. 

> This is not a margin phenomenon. This is BIG and impacts millions of people.

According to your assessment of what a nasty place the UK has become in the last 5 years, you'd expect an exodus, not only of EU citizens but also of British born nationals. Can you please explain then why 3,700,000 EU citizens choose to make their home in the UK alone, while only 1,300,000 British nationals choose to live in the other 27 EU countries? This is not a margin phenomenon!

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Actions speak louder than words Rom. Any idea how many foreign nationals immigrated into the UK last year? 467,000! According to your much repeated narrative they're all fleeing into repression and discrimination, surely a first in human history. 

> According to your assessment of what a nasty place the UK has become in the last 5 years, you'd expect an exodus, not only of EU citizens but also of British born nationals. Can you please explain then why 3,700,000 EU citizens choose to make their home in the UK alone, while only 1,300,000 British nationals choose to live in the other 27 EU countries? This is not a margin phenomenon!

Yes, 3,700,000 EU citizens chose (past tense) to make their home in the UK alone.

Ask some of them how they feel. I do.
Most of those I know are anxious, depressed, and feel marginalised. I see many of them developing an anti-british sentiment, despite the fact that they were big fans of Britain ten years ago. I don't agree with it at all, but after all this is understandable. When you are attacked, you react.
 

One chart :

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/internationalmigration/bulletins/migrationstatisticsquarterlyreport/november2018

How much would you like to bet that EU net migration turns negative within the next 6 months ?

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> Yes, 3,700,000 EU citizens chose (past tense) to make their home in the UK alone.

No that's present tense, they're still here.

> Ask some of them how they feel. I do.

I do too. I've got a pub quiz with some Fathers from my eldest's old primary class next week. It comes up occasionally with the two French Dads (thankfully it's not as tediously regular a topic as on UKC). They're generally disgruntled with the wankpuffins in Westminster, but who isn't? In that, as in everything else, they're as fully integrated and accepted members of the community as any of us.

> Most of those I know are anxious, depressed, and feel marginalised. I see many of them developing an anti-british sentiment, 

I don't want to appear uncharitable Rom, but do these people have a common denominator? A mutual acquaintance perhaps?

>I don't agree with it at all, but after all this is understandable. When you are attacked, you react.

Yes, I imagine you would. What's the usual reaction of people that feel anxious, marginalised, depressed and attacked? Historically that reaction has been buggering off to a more welcoming country, especially if you're residing in a foreign country anyway, are bilingual and possess a passport that gives you the option to work and reside in any one of 27 other countries... It hardly requires Schindler's bloody list!

> One chart :

...and that chart shows: 625,000 new foreign nationals chose to move to the UK last year. Despite the horrendous cost of living, shitty weather and the threat of no deal Brexit hanging over all our heads.

Christ! Your average Brit must be much friendlier and more welcoming than I thought.

> How much would you like to bet that EU net migration turns negative within the next 6 months ?

All bets are off until March. Ask me then. 

Edit: for italics.

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> No that's present tense, they're still here.

> they're as fully integrated and accepted membres of the community as any of us

You may think so, but yet, they will have to apply and ask for the permission to stay. Which they may or may not be granted, and may be taken away, at any time.

We don’t ask that of British natives. A fundamental distinction is being drawn between you, and them, their rights will be lower than yours.

> I don't want to appear uncharitable Rom, but do these people have a common denominator? A mutual acquaintance perhaps?

The common denominator is that they all came to the UK a long time ago and made it their home. And suddenly, they felt like foreigners, and started being treated as such.

> >I don't agree with it at all, but after all this is understandable. When you are attacked, you react.

> Yes, I imagine you would. What's the usual reaction of people that feel anxious, marginalised, depressed and attacked? Historically that reaction has been buggering off to a more welcoming country, especially if you're residing in a foreign country anyway, are bilingual and possess a passport that gives you the option to work and reside in any one of 27 other countries... It hardly requires Schindler's bloody list!

> ...and that chart shows: 625,000 new foreign nationals chose to move to the UK last year. Despite the horrendous cost of living, shitty weather and the threat of no deal Brexit hanging over all our heads.

It’s very easy to get short term economic migration or students. Which is what we get now. And this is in fact what the government wants. They are not against economic immigration they are against people who settle.

Hence my argument that it is all about identity and ethnicity, nothing else.

You should read the new immigration proposal. It’s all about breaking the link between residence and settlement.

Post edited at 21:14
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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

I recommend reading this which is the most eloquent piece I’ve read in the topic, and hits the nail on the head as far as I can tell: 

http://www.these-islands.co.uk/publications/i284/philippe_auclair_on_the_3_million_britains_invisible_minority.aspx

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> It’s very easy to get short term economic migration. Which is what we get. And this is in fact what the government wants. They are not against economic immigration they are against people who settle.

> Hence my argument that is all about identity and ethnicity, nothing else.

> You should read the new immigration proposal. It’s all about breaking the link between residence and settlement.

You got any evidence for that at all Rom? I wouldn't normally ask, but all the evidence you've so far presented indicates the opposite. 

From your own link; more foreign national have immigrated into the UK than have left since 1994. That's the last 25 years Rom! That's a hell of a lot of people making permanent homes here.

You know the only group of people the UK isn't popular with? British born nationals; Again, this is from your own link...more have left these shores than have returned every year since 1986.... You'd have an easier job proving that it's native born Brits that find the UK a hostile environment.

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RomTheBear on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> You got any evidence for that at all Rom? I wouldn't normally ask, but all the evidence you've so far presented indicates the opposite. 

> From your own link; more foreign national have immigrated into the UK than have left since 1994. That's the last 25 years Rom! That's a hell of a lot of people making permanent homes here.

I’ve linked to the ONS quarterly migration figures that show a massive drop in E.U. net migration, driven by both a large reduction in arrivals, and a large increase in departures, since the EU referendum.

Frankly, I don’t think you will grasp it. Maybe it’s  just not possible until you actually live through it. Read the article I posted above. It describes the situation more eloquently and thoughtfully than I can.

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Stichtplate on 08 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

 You got any evidence for that at all Rom? I wouldn't normally ask, but all the evidence you've so far presented indicates the opposite. 

 From your own link; more foreign national have immigrated into the UK than have left every year since 1994. That's the last 25 consecutive years Rom! That's a hell of a lot of people making permanent homes here.

 You know the only group of people the UK isn't popular with? British born nationals; Again, this is from your own link...more have left these shores than have returned every year since 1986.... You'd have an easier job proving that it's native born Brits that find the UK a hostile environment.

Edit: sorry, just got back from the pub and realised this wasn't very clear.

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Stichtplate on 09 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> I recommend reading this which is the most eloquent piece I’ve read in the topic, and hits the nail on the head as far as I can tell: 

OK, I've read it. I think you're right, perhaps you have to live it to understand it because I was quite confused as to exactly what his issue is.

He talks about a lack of acceptance for his specific identity, a lack of correct boxes for him to tick in official documents. This seems more seeking recognition of his category difference than seeking individual acceptance. He also complains of the 5 models chosen for an ad campaign because their ethnic and gender differences are too stereotypical in an effort to project inclusivity??? 

He writes... We ask ourselves: is it possible to belong, as we desperately want to – this is our home, not a foreign posting, and most of us have nowhere else to ‘go back to’ – without being British? And what kind of Brits would we be if becoming British were a matter of convenience, when the link we enjoyed before was so much stronger than the binding of a passport?  This is the crux of what I can't get my head round, his plea for acceptance as British and European and French at the same time. I don't see the problem, the British have always been welcoming and inclusive, maybe I'm deluding myself but I don't see the Brexit vote as having the effect of changing an entire nations character. You've travelled around a bit, what other country is as typically welcoming to the outsider? How shocked would you be to walk into a village shop in England and be charged a different price because you're  an outsider? Not so unusual in many parts of the world. 

When we get to the only specific example of any manifestation of the hostility he's experienced it comes down to him 'having insults hurled at him on several occasions'. He doesn't say what these insults were, he doesn't say who insulted him, he doesn't give any context at all. He lives in Hammersmith and Fulham, one of the most cosmopolitan boroughs in one of the most cosmopolitan cities in the world. I looked up the 2011 census he mentions, it put the borough's white British population at 44.9%, so in effect, everyone in his home borough is something of a minority. I also note, from a bit of googling, that he doesn't have any plans to leave the country. I'm glad, I like the way he writes and when all this crap settles in a couple of years time, I hope he writes something similar but perhaps less coloured by any of his own prejudices or confirmation bias. 

...then again, as I said at the top, maybe you have to live it to understand it.

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Trevers - on 09 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

As an aside - I often wonder just how many sleepless nights, how much anxiety and depression, how many wasted hours among the workforce could be attributed to Brexit.

I've been trying to do a PhD through this mess and it seems like I spend as much time worrying about Brexit as I do worrying about my work. I feel like there's a thesis' worth of material on the systematic undermining of British democracy in my head. 

I also noticed my mental health took a significant boost over Christmas, while Parliament was in recess and I was enforcing a mostly Brexit free family safe space. It's rapidly spiralled down again since.

Post edited at 11:51
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Murderous_Crow - on 09 Feb 2019
In reply to Trevers:

A diverse range of adjectives describe my thoughts on the architects of Leave (including for Cameron and the other enablers of this farce). As you can probably guess, none of these adjectives are positive. 

Even so, I can honestly say I've never wished harder to be proved wrong by people I dislike so much. 

If Brexit happens and peace and prosperity abound, I will freely admit what a pessimist I was. I promise. 

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john arran - on 09 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I completely agree, with the caveat that I still don't accept that it's worth us finding out, given that the referendum has been proven to have been influenced by criminal overspending to such an extent that, were it not to have been technically only advisory, its result probably would have been annulled. That simply isn't a solid mandate.

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RomTheBear on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> OK, I've read it. I think you're right, perhaps you have to live it to understand it because I was quite confused as to exactly what his issue is.l

>You've travelled around a bit, what other country is as typically welcoming to the outsider? 

I think the answer is contained in your question.  Britain is indeed very welcoming to the outsider - like most country I’ve ever been to in fact.

Problem is, EU citizens who lived in the UK for decades never considered themselves as outsiders. Most didn’t think of themselves as “foreigners” or part of a ”minority”, that needed to organise itself to protect its rights. It didn’t even cross their minds.

That changed in the lead up and during the referendum campaign. And for the first time I see E.U. citizens rights groups popping up, complains about the lack of representation of E.U. citizens on TV shows, etc etc. Something that would not even have come to mind 10 years ago.

In short, Brexit has forced E.U. citizens into accepting they are not part of the whole, but a minority of “outsiders” that now needs to fight to preserve its right.

It was made clear to them that in fact, no matter how integrated they are. They still are, and will always be, outsiders, a minority, who btw, will have to ask for permission to stay.

BTW I don’t think Brexit changed the nation’s character, I think it just made it more visible. And after all this is part of the success of the Brexit campaign. It appealed to an exclusive version of English identity that had been (rightly or wrongly) repressed.

Post edited at 07:33
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wercat on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

Does anyone think the DUP may be supporting something that may take them back into the EU sooner than they imagine as part of a united Ireland?

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Stichtplate on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to RomTheBear:

> I think the answer is contained in your question.  Britain is indeed very welcoming to the outsider - like most country I’ve ever been to in fact.

You'd posted before that the UK was more welcoming than the majority of other countries. Changed your mind?

> Problem is, EU citizens who lived in the UK for decades never considered themselves as outsiders. Most didn’t think of themselves as “foreigners” or part of a ”minority”, that needed to organise itself to protect its rights. It didn’t even cross their minds.

That kind of proves my point. Decades of feeling accepted. Then a load of political grandstanding and inflammatory bollocks starts appearing on the box, people forget their own personal experience and start analysing everything through a warped prism of media hype.

> That changed in the lead up and during the referendum campaign. And for the first time I see E.U. citizens rights groups popping up, complains about the lack of representation of E.U. citizens on TV shows, etc etc. Something that would not even have come to mind 10 years ago.

See my above point. I watch a fair amount of foreign films and TV shows. How often do British people pop up do you reckon? The only place that people with English accents regularly appear is in American output where, more often than not, the accent is shorthand for 'oh look, The Baddy'.....our collective reaction to decades of low grade cultural bad mouthing? We couldn't give a stuff.

> In short, Brexit has forced E.U. citizens into accepting they are not part of the whole, but a minority of “outsiders” that now needs to fight to preserve its right. It was made clear to them that in fact, no matter how integrated they are. They still are, and will always be, outsiders, a minority, who btw, will have to ask for permission to stay.

IMHO the shoddy and crude Brexiteer narrative of 'border control' was rooted in real concerns among UK nationals about a whole raft of problems associated with living on a densely populated, over polluted and overpriced island. According to your own link, 625,000 new arrivals last year, do the maths, nearly 10% of the existing population in just one year, similar levels have been sustained for decades now. This is a bit of a personal hobby horse with me, but it's got nothing to do with xenophobia, it's purely a weight of numbers issue.

> BTW I don’t think Brexit changed the nation’s character, I think it just made it more visible. And after all this is part of the success of the Brexit campaign. It appealed to an exclusive version of English identity that had been (rightly or wrongly) repressed.

I don't agree, English identity is rather a nebulous notion, but such as it is, a big part of it has always been a polite and open minded acceptance of the 'other' into our lives, whether that manifests as food, culture or people.

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RomTheBear on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

> You'd posted before that the UK was more welcoming than the majority of other countries. Changed your mind?

Isn’t that confirmation of what I’ve said earlier ?

> That kind of proves my point. Decades of feeling accepted. Then a load of political grandstanding and inflammatory bollocks starts appearing on the box, people forget their own personal experience and start analysing everything through a warped prism of media hype.

the political grandstanding and inflammatory bollocks does not come out of nowhere. 

> See my above point. I watch a fair amount of foreign films and TV shows. How often do British people pop up do you reckon? The only place that people with English accents regularly appear is in American output where, more often than not, the accent is shorthand for 'oh look, The Baddy'.....our collective reaction to decades of low grade cultural bad mouthing? We couldn't give a stuff.

Thats irrelevant. Of course you don’t expect Brits in foreign TV shows. Il taking about British TV shows in which E.U. citizens in the UK are almost never represented, despite being one of the biggest minority.

As I’ve said, most never gave a rat’s ass. The fact that they do now reveals that they now feel like a minority. Basically these stupid identity politics are being forced on them.

> IMHO the shoddy and crude Brexiteer narrative of 'border control' was rooted in real concerns among UK nationals about a whole raft of problems associated with living on a densely populated, over polluted and overpriced island. According to your own link, 625,000 new arrivals last year, do the maths, nearly 10% of the existing population in just one year, similar levels have been sustained for decades now. This is a bit of a personal hobby horse with me, but it's got nothing to do with xenophobia, it's purely a weight of numbers issue.

Actually, I don’t think it is about the numbers, at all. In fact you can see attitudes toward immigration softening now that people know that freedom of movement will end, despite the fact that the numbers haven’t really gone down. EU has just been replaced by non-EU.

The key here is that non-EU are treated differently than natives.

What couldn’t be swallowed was that EU citizens should be treated as equal to the natives.

> I don't agree, English identity is rather a nebulous notion, but such as it is, a big part of it has always been a polite and open minded acceptance of the 'other' into our lives, whether that manifests as food, culture or people.

Indeed, I agree, but again, what you don’t get is that E.U. citizens in particular living in the country in the long term, never saw themselves as « the other ».

To try to understand, imagine you had lived for 20 years in another country of the UK than your own, for example Scotland (assuming you are English) and suddenly you’d see an explosion in the public discourse in Scotland of concerns about « English people taking our job », sucking on benefits, putting pressure on services, and how unfair it is that they have the same rights.

And then they told you, actually, no more English people can come and stay in Scotland unless they have permission, and yourself, will have to ask us permission to stay.

Well I think you’d suddenly feel that something fundamental has changed

Post edited at 11:01
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Doug on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

"The only place that people with English accents regularly appear is in American output"

presumably you don't watch any French TV

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elsewhere on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Stichtplate:

>. According to your own link, 625,000 new arrivals last year, do the maths, nearly 10% of the existing population in just one year,

I think you have a typo/miscalculation - 625,000 is 1% of 66 Million UK population.

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RomTheBear on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to elsewhere:

> >. According to your own link, 625,000 new arrivals last year, do the maths, nearly 10% of the existing population in just one year,

> I think you have a typo/miscalculation - 625,000 is 1% of 66 Million UK population.

Not to mention this is just gross.

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Stichtplate on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to elsewhere:

> I think you have a typo/miscalculation - 625,000 is 1% of 66 Million UK population.

I'm an idiot. Thanks for the correction.

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Stichtplate on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Doug:

> "The only place that people with English accents regularly appear is in American output"

> presumably you don't watch any French TV

Not French channels, plenty of TV shows and films over the years. A tiny fraction of French output in total, so I'm happy to be corrected. I am aware of French laws restricting foreign media intrusion.

https://www.independent.co.uk/arts-entertainment/music/news/france-reduces-legal-quota-on-number-of-french-songs-djs-are-forced-to-play-a6938201.html

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Richard Wheeldon - on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

… sums up perfectly the real reason why "we're really dong this"...

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/621683058285326/UzpfSTUxOTA4NzI1MToxMDE1NjI0NTUzMDkxMjI1Mg/

Post edited at 13:00
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Murderous_Crow - on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Richard Wheeldon:

This frank admission by Baroness Warsi of the mad gamble the Conservative Party took prior to the 2015 election, is hard to hear.

She is absolutely correct to say that an apology is not enough. It was sociopathic: the cynicism is breathtaking.

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Richard Wheeldon - on 10 Feb 2019
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

… I'm not sure its was just cynicism... Cameron got the 'nod' as Tory leader in 2005 on the promise he'd hold an in-out referendum on Britain's membership of the EU in order to placate the right-wing  'Victorians' that had made the lives of previous Tory leaders so miserable...

… having promised an in-out referendum his problem(s) arose when the Tory's won, against all expectations, a majority in the 2015 general election... this wasn't meant to happen; he fully expected to be in coalition with the Lib Dems again, as he had been since 2010.

Had he not won a majority in 2015, he could save face with the Tory 'Victorians' and wriggle out of the in-out referendum conundrum... he knew the Lib Dems would have blocked the legislation, this would have kicked the proverbial 'can' of a referendum down the road until the next general election in 2020...

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timjones - on 10:31 Mon
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> I've already tried, but Mary Robinson does not have a spine. She is Tory central office lobby fodder (2nd class)

I'm not sure that you understand how it works, they can't change their stance just because you personally ask them to.

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jkarran - on 11:03 Mon
In reply to wercat:

> Does anyone think the DUP may be supporting something that may take them back into the EU sooner than they imagine as part of a united Ireland?

The DUP's motives in all this are still something of a puzzle. I don't think 'out of the EU' was their objective per se, more a UK made more distinct from Eire, probably also demarcated by a tangible border, making NI 'less Irish', effectively rowing back some on the GFA by stealth or at least with the figleaf of brexit being a broader UK 'project' to hide behind.

The irony if this is the case is that they seem to have misread NI (not as opposed to the existing illusion as they are) and GB (couldn't give a toss about NI) public sentiment, perhaps miscalculated how this all pans out (this is where not living in the weird distorting prism of NI politics makes it hard to be sure). The imposition of a tangible border seems to me more likely to lead toward greater (complete) unity with Eire than the UK (but for the impossibility of holding a referendum while there is no power sharing government in place*) and fairly swiftly. It looks a lot like they've thrown themselves under the English nationalists' bus having helped them get it rolling. Can't help but feel I'm missing something but I don't know what I don't know.

*perhaps this is the ace up their sleeve, remain obstructive enough and out of Stormont to ensure 'home rule' precludes re-unification for the foreseeable future. Rely on tribal loyalty to keep them in a position to be obstructive.

None of this seems remotely sane or sensible but it is NI and frankly, Westminster is now little better.

jk

Post edited at 11:09
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jkarran - on 11:06 Mon
In reply to timjones:

> I'm not sure that you understand how it works, they can't change their stance just because you personally ask them to.

Well they can but you would have to be very persuasive.

jk

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timjones - on 12:30 Mon
In reply to jkarran:

Ah well, I'll obviously have to go back and try harder with my MP then ;)

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Andy Hardy on 13:41 Mon
In reply to timjones:

> I'm not sure that you understand how it works, they can't change their stance just because you personally ask them to.

She campaigned for remain. Surely at the general election she could have said "sorry, can't stand for you this time as the central plank of your manifesto will irrevocably screw the UK". What I want is for the process to be paused until quitters work out how to extract us from the EU without long term serious harm. Norway for now would be a lot more palatable than the current unicorn and cake brexit.

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jkarran - on 13:57 Mon
In reply to Andy Hardy:

> She campaigned for remain. Surely at the general election she could have said "sorry, can't stand for you this time as the central plank of your manifesto will irrevocably screw the UK". What I want is for the process to be paused until quitters work out how to extract us from the EU without long term serious harm. Norway for now would be a lot more palatable than the current unicorn and cake brexit.

The way our system works means (with a few odd exceptions) that if you step away from either big party to stand for your principals you just end up ceding the seat to someone who maybe doesn't share them. From within once elected you can argue for your principals, work to reshape policy. Manifestos have never been sacrosanct, ideas evolve as circumstances change. Downside is you're open to accusations of hypocrisy and worse but at least you can do more from the inside than from without.

jk

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timjones - on 14:02 Mon
In reply to Andy Hardy:

What do her constituents want today?

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Tringa on 15:08 Mon
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

I'm still amazed that, as far as we know, not one member of the cabinet or any other MP, as I recall, saId, when a referendum was proposed said,

"What we need to do is look at the implications of leaving the EU and after the pros and cons have been discussed, analysed and publicised, then set a date for a referendum, not the other way around"

Recently I read that David Cameron has had an extension to his house built. I bet he didn't just tell a builder to get on with it without considering the size, the design, the cost etc.

Dave 

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Andy Hardy on 15:23 Mon
In reply to timjones:

In the referendum, every ward in Cheadle voted remain https://cheadleandgatley.mycouncillor.org.uk/2016/06/28/eu-referendum-voting-breakdown-by-ward/

To answer your question: the only way to find out what they want today is to ask them!

<ducks>

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HansStuttgart - on 17:37 Mon
In reply to jkarran:

> The DUP's motives in all this are still something of a puzzle.

Maybe they wanted to lose the referendum?

There was a political need to support it so as not to be seen as less English nationalistic as GB. But with the expectation of a remain win, supporting leave could be easy political point scoring.

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jkarran - on 14:24 Tue
In reply to HansStuttgart:

> Maybe they wanted to lose the referendum?

Makes as much sense as the alternatives I suppose: posturing for a hard-line electorate. Knowing the risk, knowing their electorate didn't understand it, expecting not to have to deliver.

jk

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Pete Pozman - on 08:46 Thu
In reply to Murderous_Crow:

An issue which is rearing its ugly head from the Slough of Despond is the growing possibility of an extreme right wing caucus gaining control of the EU. Some Leavers are pointing to this and asserting we're better out of it.

What I find deeply shaming is the UK 's rôle in acting as a vanguard for the fascist tendency on the continent. We should be part of the resistance against this evil. Instead our country led the charge.

Make no mistake, Leave is a hard right project. 

That we should come to this... 

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Murderous_Crow - on 11:29 Thu
In reply to Pete Pozman:

> What I find deeply shaming is the UK 's rôle in acting as a vanguard for the fascist tendency on the continent. We should be part of the resistance against this evil. Instead our country led the charge.

Unhappily, I am completely with you Pete. Some dark and troubling times ahead I fear, as past lessons moulder away. 

Again I can only hope I am letting my pessimism run off the leash, but it's not just me or you. 

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RomTheBear on 12:05 Thu
In reply to Stichtplate:

> Not French channels, plenty of TV shows and films over the years. A tiny fraction of French output in total, so I'm happy to be corrected. I am aware of French laws restricting foreign media intrusion.

Yeah, whatever they do it really doesn’t work since french public broadcast is full of foreign tv shows and music. In comparison the BBC has a lot more British programming.

Which doesn’t surprise me since we make good stuff in the UK, whilst french productions are generally shite (there are some exception and some fantastic stuff, but not as much IMO).

Another example showing that cultural exceptionalism doesn’t work.

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