UKH

Just home from evening dog walk, with a nervous wreck for a dog.  Just around 6.30 and it’s like the Somme outside.  We’ve got this for the next 3 weeks or so.  If last year is any guide, it’ll be difficult to impossible to get him out after dark.  Anyone like to explain how it’s ok to traumatise our pets, older relatives and those of e nervous disposition for weeks on end before bonfire night, year after year.

I for one am exasperated and hope beyond hope that this excuse for a celebration can be halted.  And before the flame throwers are lit, I’ll say as a lad I thoroughly enjoyed a firework party, on the 5th of November.  Fast forward it has become an excuse for the local yobs to misbehave and terrorise whole communities night after night.  It’s time for a halt!

I love fireworks but sadly find it almost impossible to justify them. Lots of people worry about pets but the impact on wild animals must be severe too, eg:

https://academic.oup.com/beheco/article/22/6/1173/218852

Surely quiet fireworks are technically feasible?

Im in this camp now. Fireworks are a fantastic spectacle but I struggle to justify them now for various reasons.

Agree, and its not just before Bonfire Night.

For quite a few years almost every weekend from Nov 5th through to New Year there were fireworks. There is sometimes a pause then before it begins again close to Chinese New Year. It also seems the fireworks have become a lot louder too.

Our usually feisty crossed fell terrier is reduced to a quivering wreck by fireworks. Last Bonfire Night we were up until about 1:30am before it became quiet enough for us to leave him.

Dave

If I can look into your immediate future (grabs temples and puts on a pained expression) I foresee you being shouted down as a curmudgeon killjoy who has had the joy kicked out of you. Your right to a quiet life is trumped by a bunch of arse holes who think it's OK to set off loud incendiaries at all times of the night, regardless of the hundreds of people around them trying to get a good night's kip, their kids, their pets, etc. Shame on you. 

Just warning you. Good luck

My middle name, curmudgeon-killjoy 

The names killington.... Buzz killington...

Of course they are - but they are nothing like as much fun as ones that go bang!

Seriously though, I agree with you they are really anti-social, and a terrible waste of money, not to mention the effect that it has on millions of animals. It's time we limited fireworks displays just short organised events for just a few national celebrations such as marking Millenniums, winning major wars,  and the like.  

If people want to persist with and perpetuate anti Catholic demonstrations, now several hundred years old, let's limit it to just Nov 5th for say an hour shortly after dark, rather than for weeks before and after that date. I'm not a Catholic, but it strikes me as being a form of hate crime from which the country has never grown up?

Those of us of a certain age who enjoyed fireworks as kids ( and probably abused them as well when unsupervised) were simply not dealing with the same sort of devices as are on sale today. The mere size of the items is a bit of a giveaway. Our rockets rarely exceeded the size of a Smarties tube and i personally never saw anything the size of a Pringle tube. No-one ever had anythng anywhere near powerful enough to set off a car alarm and for the most part a lot of them probably couldn't be heard indoors. Society needs to decide whether the visual spectacle of pyrotechnics is more important than the noise component and legislate accordingly.

It's one area wħere our friends over the water in Ireland seem to have a more sensible approach ( though I assume there are some breaches of the law)

Maybe it’s time to do,something.  Not sure what exactly, but I suspect there would be a significant national majority in favour of stringent restrictions on fireworks

Its quite odd isn't it. The amount of health and safety protection we wrap ourselves up in to (rightly so) protect ourselves and everyone around us from personal damage is subject to some bizarre "f#ck it, its bonfire night" waiver 

Fireworks are used for celebrations by other cultures too.

The "display" fireworks on sale now just don't compare to a 1970s packet of bangers. I'm fortunate that my dogs are fine with them, and I LOVE fireworks, but I'd gladly forego the spectacle for other animals peace of mind 

Sometimes they even start here before it's dark! It's a proper nightmare!

I think drone light shows look cool! We should encourage those!

youtube.com/watch?v=KhDEEN4gcpI&

I too love fireworks, and the impact on young children of neighbours is why I don't have them in my garden now. I think once a year on Nov 5th, organised, at an advertised time, is a fair compromise.

Pet "ownership" I find even less justifiable in many cases. Especially cats, genetically deformed dogs, dogs that need carrying, angry dogs, etc...

Got to be worth a thread of its own. I think good pet ownership is  a boon to many people whereas bad pet ownership is a bane to all who come into contact with the pet and its owner. 

OK, I'll bite. Got my coat on already...

You have some valid points if it's really as bad as you say round your way, I'd be OK with more effective restrictions on who can buy fireworks. But stopping the whole thing? Because it upsets your pet? No sympathy there. It's your pet, you deal with it.

I got harassed by dogs again today. I don't like it, the owners shouldn't let it happen, but it does. I just have to deal with it.

I sank my entire Airfix navy using a packet of 1970s bangers. Snapped off the fore deck, in went the banger, down the stream, KABOOM! HMS Hood, Tirpitz, Bismarck, Sharnorst, Graf Spee the lot. It was fantastic.

Perhaps the dogs were harangued by fireworks before haranguing yhoooo?

I love the way they go 'BANG!', but environmentally and compassionately towards animals, I can't justify them.

I'll enjoy hearing them until they become restricted...

The mental shock caused by the extreme percussive nature of modern fireworks isn't limited just to animals, though. People whose sensibilities might not be as robust as yours through either age or infirmity can suffer considerable stress when subjected to repeated loud bangs . I'm not sure that saying "It's you grandma, you deal with it"  would be much of an answer.

I'm wondering if the 'bell ringing is an ancient traditional' argument to my other thread has any parallels to this one... 🤔

You took your time coming into this one!. My only comment would be to say that church bells have been making the same noise for the last thousand years, like them or not, whereas fireworks have got louder and more percussive by a massive degree in the space of a lifetime.

Just to be an argumentative tw#t (which I am) , you could argue that bells probably started off relatively quiet, but got louder as we understood more about metallurgy, acoustics, design, etc.

And now it's time for bed ( before the morning bells start) 

I was actually the fifth poster 😂

I thoroughly disapprove of the yobs throwing small fireworks at each other and causing a minor disturbance. Quite pathetic really.

If only other towns had the decency to do this properly, like Lewes in Sussex. IMHO that is how it should be done!

I got the sense that the important point isn't that it's his dog being affected, more that it's animals in general which are, and it's that which makes fireworks a bad thing.

You could definitely set off a car alarm by putting an air-bomb up the exhaust pipe.

E

All my matchbox / dinky toys were lined up up in an elaborate diorama and then shot to bits with my air rifle. And yes, 40 years down the line, I regret it enormously 

I like them. Apologies.

I mean, we get so few decent thunderstorms in this country. Fireworks are the next best thing.

Thunder storms don't leave litter all over the place. They don't sound like gunshots.

A Standard response. 

My brother and I helped set fire to my friend's Revell Bismarck in his bath using matches and lighter fuel then did a runner just as his mum was walking up from the bus stop.

Ahhh, so you were the one who was buying Airfix boats, everyone I know made airfix planes which we could run around the house with, making firing noises and shouting "I got you, your dead" to which the reply was always "no no you didn't, you missed". I did once blow the turret off a Russian tank that I got at the Dorset tank museum with a French black cat banger.

Back on topic, around Bradford every minor family of religious event is celebrated with a full scale blitz of fireworks, any time of year, any time of day. Luckily I live far away enough that they are audible but not ear splitting.

But they are loud with big flashes.

Good for you.  I do too, but I don’t need it for nearly 4 weeks, and my dog doesn’t need it, neither does my friends 90 yr old mother.  Small children can’t get to sleep, go tell us it’s good.I’m afraid you are in a minority.  Go justify the trauma go on!

Did you manage to get the Prinz Eugen too?... I should hope that you were wearing a Hood, at the time, anyhow. 

The modern fireworks that are available for sale to the public are no way near as loud or powerful as the things that you could buy in the 1990s. The local firework shop used to sell things that were guaranteed to set off all the local burglar/car alarms, plus there was unrestricted sale of the professional grade ones like mortars.  

There was a well publicised case of a teacher that got killed setting off a firework mortar that led to restrictions on what could be sold. 

And children trying to sleep

Ban the b*stards after 9 PM

Many people in the UK are injured every year by fireworks, some seriously 

I have a solution. Sell fireworks as normal, but include 1% in every box or shop which look completely normal but explode with, say, 100-200 times the force of a normal firework. Not too bad, just, say, with enough force to take a roof off 

I am sorry if this sounds mean. I am joking. Honestly 

Nah

Man, I love this time of year - not the fireworks but the yearly moan of the outraged dog owners!

All the runners/cyclists/park users/pedestrians have had to put up with being pestered by these blooming beasts (don’t worry, he’s only being friendly or oh, he’s never down that before) or avoiding their crap on the pavements (oh, it wasn’t my dog, don’t know who would leave that there) all year long now also have to put up with the outrage when their furry babies (wtf) are scared by some loud bangs (do they not live in houses with double glazing?)

Outraged dog owners, sorry, you guys deserve fireworks all year long

Nobody's forcing you to keep a non-working animal in a built up area. 

Why should rules on kids going out and having fun be organised around your desire to do so?

So you don't like dogs.  Fair enough.  Don't mind them myself, but don't keep one.

Can't help but notice you ignore the other issues around fireworks.  Why should my (and everyone else's) ability to sleep be organised around your desire to "let off" extremely loud explosive devices night after night?  Why should my elderly mother, who has dementia be terrified, for a month or so? Why should I be subjected to the stress of jumping out of my skin out few minutes just so that you and Robert Durran can look at pretty colors and hear loud noises?  Why not just stick your earplugs in, crank up an ACDC track, and have someone dangle a few colored beads in front your face?

Selfishness personified. 

I didn't say I wouldn't take account of other peoples' issues with fireworks; I just said I liked them. 

Just like a responsible dog lover ought to take account of the feelings of people who can't stand them.

All valid points of course, but that's not what this thread is about. The OP didn't post because they were worried about them, they posted because their dog got upset. If it wasn't for that they wouldn't be calling for a ban on fireworks.

Any thread with fireworks in the title is guaranteed to just be a whinge by dog owners. I usually just ignore them but after getting "dogged" again yesterday I felt like having a go.

Have an extra like. One isn't enough.

The thread title challenges any firework apologists and in his fifth sentence he refers to "pets, older relatives and those of a nervous disposition" .  That's why I didn't take it to be just about dogs.

Ultimately I'm not suggesting a ban on fireworks, just a return to the noise levels of, say, fifty years ago. Though in principle, sending up rockets is exactly the same type of littering as using sky lanterns.......

It's not bad around here. A few on bonfire night or if Liverpool win the premier league but that's all really. I don't mind them but I would if it was weeks on end. My dog doesn't like them, but we keep him occupied those nights.

I think the point that is more pertinent is that wild animals, horses, farm animals etc also get stressed by them and I'm not convinced it's fair. Maybe not so many in cities where it's a real issue, though.

I know they said that, but come on. We all know that it's about the dog. The other concerns are just tacked on to try and bolster their argument.

I love dogs, we have a black lab who is terrified of fireworks and it's awful to see him scared.

But that's our responsibility for keeping him in a built up area. We put his thunder blanket on, give him some drugs, and build a fort for him with a speaker playing classical music, rather than complaining that others should stop having fun.

I have no desire to let off fireworks - I'm on the downslope to 50 years old, and they upset my dog.

I do, however, remember how much fun they were as a child and during my teenage years, and don't want to deny kids the same fun I had.

The selfish thing to do, in my mind, would be to try to stop kids having fun because I don't like the noise or can't be bothered to take the steps to make my dog feel OK.

Speculation,  m'lud!

At a time where logistics are running very tight, and there is a shortage of shipping containers etc,  I can't see how there is an excuse for shipping them to shops instead of say food or fuel.

To the Op, have you tried getting your dog(S) a coat?  Monty has drying coats which seem to calm him and settle him when there's unwelcome noise around.

See, I used to fall into this camp. I'm not a particular fan of dogs, and pretty much figure it's the owners job to try to comfort them during firework season. But, in contrast to pets, wild animals have no comfort at all, and must get incredibly scared. For me, this was the catalyst that caused me to think that perhaps loud fireworks should be a think of the past.
 

Most years since we moved up here we've gone to the end of festival firework display in Edinburgh and stood on Princes street Awestruck by the spectacle and noise. One year, just for a change, we went up Calton hill to watch them but were really disappointed when the noise reached us several moments after the fireworks lit up the sky - spoiled the whole effect so I'd have to agree with Trangia's opening statement. 

Like many on here, I've had my fun as a youth throwing bangers around but nowadays, as a 60 year old curmudgeon I do feel it's time firework sales were limited to organised events. 

Well that's certainly an argument I'd have more truck with, although I can't profess to having a great level of knowledge of the actual harm caused. 

I imagine a lot of wild animals spend a significant amount of time in distress anyway - what with predators, normal human interference with their environment, etc..... I don't know if fireworks are a significant addition to the other stresses or a very small part of it overall.

I don't see too many wild animals running around the local streets; a few foxes, perhaps, and birds, but there are lots of other loud noises they seem to cope with.

When you were a kid firework night was a night, perhaps both weekends either side of 5th November.

Now it's pretty much firework season, weeks on end, and it gets rather tedious. 

Fireworks cause a great deal of disturbance to roosting birds. Every disturbance is an opportunity for predation and a loss of carefully stored energy in cold conditions when opportunities for feeding are harder because of shorter days and lower productivity.

Beware anecdata!

But is it kids having fun?? Of those fireworks we hear at midnight, how many are set off by kids, and how many by adults? I wonder

Also, for everyone on here, what about the carbon footprint of fireworks over a year over the whole world? I haven't seen many people discussing that on here. Where are all the Extinction Rebellion posters from a couple of years ago? Wondering again 

Indeed - now you're into really interesting questions. I don't know the answer. Here's some radar showing birds taking flight at New Year. Impressive, eh?
https://twitter.com/RadarAndStuff/status/981381328406016000
https://twitter.com/Alexander_Lees/status/1344802234295586816

Nonsense. As soon as fireworks were in the shops we were letting them off most nights. Aside from firing rockets and repeaters down the street at each other we would do plenty to deliberately cause mischief to others - stick bangers up tailpipes, down closes and through letterboxes - anything that would make them loud and/or annoying. 

This was part of a wider pattern of anti-social behaviour as the nights drew in - we would play chap-door-run, knock on windows, etc. that our parents and grandparents generation had also engaged in. Our parents generation were starting to see the behaviour as possibly less acceptable and so we were likely to get in trouble for it, but our grandparent's generation mostly still saw it as harmless rite of passage stuff they would actively encourage... telling us tricks and techniques from back in their day.

In my day, if you got caught you probably got a boot up the arse from the local bobby, and dragged home to get shouted at and grounded for a few days - these days kids would be getting into the court system and handed out ASBOs for what we used to get up to.

I still spend a fair bit of time in my home village in Stirling, and there's none of the nonsense our generation used to get up to on display. There's plenty of fireworks but they're largely being set off in a much more responsible manner, and nobody's playing chap door run or sticking bangers through letterboxes.

The same applies to living in London, Glasgow and Newcastle over the last couple of decades.

The current generation haven't invented anti-social behaviour - they are in fact much better behaved than we were.

I'm not advocating a return to the shit we got up to, but I think that behaviour these days seems to strike a happy medium between people having greater peace and kids still getting to have some fun.

I think it's tedious because you're no longer the one having fun - it was certainly always weeks on end where I grew up. Is it possible that your memories have been clouded by middle-age grumpiness?

I think I have a similar attitude to dogs and fireworks.

They can be fun to see occasionally but I don't like them making loud noises too close to me, and no physical contact.

Put them all on an island together and let them fight it out. 

Fireworks and anecdata...? Birds have to put up with a lot...

A lot of fireworks are set of by adults for kids - which would be the responsible think to do.

A quick google tells me fireworks in the US release around 60,000 tonnes of CO2, which is equivalent to around 12,000 cars. In a nation of 300,000,000 cars that would make fireworks around 0.004% of the CO2 impact of driving.

That was from sources that sound concerned about the impact.

Another source (that was from a fireworks company and therefore likely to play down rather than up the significance) stated:

An average November 5th display will contain about 35kg of gunpowder (NEQ). When combusted this will produce about 17kg of CO2. To put this in context, most new petrol engines will produce about 190gm of CO2 per mile.

Therefore you would need to travel 88 miles to emit the equivalent amount of CO2 of your typical fireworks display.

Which would make a full on commercial display for dozens of people less damaging (in CO2 terms) than a trip most of us on here would happily take every weekend to climb rocks. 

I reckon a significantly larger number of animals are having a shit time in airport flightpaths. Every time I go to Goblin Combe near Bristol airport I think about the animals that inhabit that ancient woodland and have the roar of a passenger jet overhead every 10 minutes of every day. 

I think low-noise fireworks do exist but you don't get the same impact without the big bang, do you. 

If you cross the words "in fact"  out of that statement then it just becomes bollocks as opposed to complete bollocks.

parachute flares are eerily quiet

So how about the old folk who really get a fright, or those with learning disabilities and can also be scared whistles, or anyone wanting a good nights sleep.  You sir are an arse

Well, you are of course entitled to your opinion of me, but I'm not going to respond to any reasonable points you might make, if you follow them up with abuse.

Got me wondering, so I did some research:

Injuries:
W39 Discharge of firework: 116 admissions, 170 bed days
W54 Bitten or struck by dog: 7386 admissions, 7476 bed days
Source: NHS Digital, Hospital Episode Statistics for England. Admitted Patient Care statistics, 2020-21  https://files.digital.nhs.uk/38/00015E/hosp-epis-stat-admi-ext-cau-2020-21-...

Carbon footprint:
London's NYE fireworks: 262kg CO2
Source: https://www.london.gov.uk/sites/default/files/mgla021117-3038_-_attachment....
One dog: 770-2500kg CO2e/yr
(various sources; google it)

Noise:
Animal noise is the nuisance 3rd most complained about to local councils. Fireworks aren't in the top 10. https://www.directlinegroup.co.uk/en/news/brand-news/2020/09062020.html

I did a bit more digging and found the BFA sent FOI requests to a load of councils. "The request was for the number of noise complaints made by the public with regard to fireworks and barking dogs." UKC spam filter doesn't like a sequence of characters that appears in the direct link, but search "fireworks-evidence-base-report.pdf"

There's a thread on a fireworks forum that has the responses here:
https://www.fireworks-forum.org.uk/threads/guidance-from-the-british-firewo...
and the responses are collated here:
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/...
Now, you might be concerned about bias creeping in, since this is the fireworks industry. I was, so I checked a few. They seem verifiable:
https://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/noise_complaints_received_for_th
https://www.scarborough.gov.uk/opendata/foi-disclosure-log/noise-complaints...

Looks like there are a few hundred noise complaints about barking dogs for every one complaint about fireworks.

Now I don't really care, but if the planet could only have one or t'other, it's not looking great for Fenton.

Thanks very much for all of that. That's really interesting, and useful. 

My dog is absolutely terrified of them and we're now entering the trembling season where anything remotely firework like sets him off.

That said, I'm not in the ban-em camp, they're a lot of fun. Personally I'd like to see the retail sales window significantly restricted to a period of no more than a week before each of the various festivals they're now associated with and perhaps tighter limits on the number of evenings in a year given over to big, very loud displays. It doesn't fix the problem but maybe strikes a slightly better balance. We don't currently get Eid, Diwali or Chinese new year fireworks where I live but still, they extend from early October through to early January with near nightly nuisance bangs.

In reality, anything less than a total ban on unlicensed possession would be basically impossible to enforce for the prevention of nuisance bangs (as opposed to little back garden displays where neighbours would doubtless shop each other with glee) so restricting supply seems worth a shot.

jk (in the apologist camp I guess)

This has to be the most atypical UKC post I've ever seen.  

I find it interesting that people are up in arms about littering and many here love to admire wildlife, but spent fireworks littering the country and scared animals are all ok because it's fun. I can train my dog to cope better with them (we get more success with that each year), and on bonfire night we head to the hills. However, the litter left behind is unavoidable and the birds etc can't escape it or be trained to deal with it. 

If it was limited to organised displays then at least litter is a bit more contained and hopefully someone will be employed to collect it the next day and it limits the stress on wildlife etc. It also allows people with dogs/ PTSD/ autism etc who don't like them to at least know when they will occur and take steps to deal with it. 

Organised displays seem like the best mix of not being kill joys but not allowing free for all.

I find it interesting that people are up in arms about the environmental impact of spent fireworks and noise, but want to encourage large firework displays that many people will drive to in their polluting ICE cars, rather than setting them off at home 😜

Do people around here work for a living?

So maybe we need to ban them then so that there is no litter, noise pollution or vehicle emissions then? 😜

Don't know about you but I'm getting sick and tired of cleaning spent firework off my shoe

Just out of interest, anyone had serial pets terrified of fireworks? I’m on family dog number four and cat number seven and none of them have given a stuff about fireworks.

Out here in Malaysia there are huge firework displays several times a year. No- one complains about terrified pets. Our dogs sit up on the balcony with us and enjoy the spectacular displays- the local ones are seriously good and long. Even the neighbors having impromptu displays at CNY don’t disturb our dogs.

Judging by the earlier comments UKC dogs would be walking wrecks living in SE Asia!

One of the best sounds is the morning dog chorus accompanying the call to prayers. The Imans start up their muazzim and the the local dogs continue so you gets this long drawn out alarm call each and every day.

I like fireworks and I like dogs

I sympathise with dogs not liking them, but also lots of dogs get upset about lots of things. Lots of people get upset about lots of things. I'm sure we all know someone with anxiety who doesn't like being, say, out in town on a Saturday night because of how crowded and busy it is. I certainly understand (although I personally love a crowded busy night out!) but also we obviously still let those places get crowded. 

If we started banning things that made people and dogs upset we'd probably ban dogs sooner than fireworks, a lot of people have bad experiences with dogs and/or are made nervous by them, especially when they're loud or big. But we definitely shouldn't ban dogs just cos some people don't like them (despite them being way more dangerous overall than fireworks!) and we should probably let people use fireworks despite some people not liking them. 

Same here. I think if your pet has a nervous disposition it's up to the owners to combat it. Pass the hash cookies Rover is getting a tad cranky again.

I was more wondering if the poor mutts are picking up on their owners discomfort and reacting according. Owner becomes even more distressed at the dog’s reaction and so the vicious circle commences?

I just spotted this.  A bit of Brexit related good news for some of the posters on this thread..
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2021/sep/22/bonfire-night-fireworks-70...