UKH

My mum's friend just went to get a PCR after being a close contact of a confirmed Covid infected person. 

She booked to go to the test center at the university, but doesn't use the internet or a mobile phone etc. She knew where the uni was and planned to follow signs when she got there. The signs took her to a dead end. So she stopped to ask someone who refused to help and started spouting nonsense about 5g, nano chips etc and that Covid isn't real. 

It seems these people have moved the signs on purpose in order to the spout their crap at people who need a test!

She is an older lady, but not one who is easily intimidated. She told him where to go and went searching and found it in the end. However, that would be awful for a more timid person! 

What utter arseholes! 

In reply to girlymonkey:

I fear lockdown has intensified these sorts of mindsets - we've had people stuck at home with little more to do than watch stuff on youtube and social media, getting deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole; those more susceptible to it have been immersed deeper than ever, and missed out on their normal chances to defuse, such as blethering with mates and being told to stop being so daft!

I know three intelligent, and I had thought rational, guys who have taken on bits of this to some extent - ivermectin, vitamin D, vaccines are don't really work that well and it's all about Pfzier making money, the covid death stats are exaggerated because those compiling and publishing them are in the pay of big pharma, all that sort of stuff. None are totally mad, no 5g or microchip stuff, and they're all double-vaxxed (but not keen on boosters) - but it's frightening how quickly they've gone this way, I think through consumption of mostly American media/social media, and I can see how people who started out more unbalanced could have been driven to the sort of crazy stuff you describe.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I just heard that my mates son who has cystic fibrosis now has covid and is in intensive care, he is very poorly, a lovely lad. I have just been to the coop and seen half of the people in there without masks....my mates lad has been nowhere apart from trips to hospital, the physio and infrequent visits to the shops....it's likely, based on the timing that he has picked it up whilst out in a shop.

The hear what you describe angers me intensely just now....it would anger me anyway, I'm not confident I will be able to keep quiet at the moment when encountering any of these idiots or selfish nobheads...

In reply to abr1966:

I'm so sorry to hear that. I hope he manages to recover.

Thankfully, up here there is still pretty good mask compliance, but there are still a few eejits around without them.

This incident made me angry on two counts. Angry that they are actively seeking to disrupt Covid testing, but also angry that an old lady on her own could have felt quite threatened by this sort of situation. Thankfully, this particular older lady is not one to mess with, but that's not the point. 

It feels like there is a very dark side of a section of society at the moment.

In reply to skog:

don't forget the scientists who proclaimed the lab leak scenario as conspiracy nonsense...

In reply to girlymonkey:

I agree with you completely.....and I have appreciated and respected what you have contributed to the covid effort...it's more irritating than ever accepting these idiots when in the context of having a sense of the reality of covid. 

Happy new year to you...best wishes...

In reply to magma:

That's a valid point, to be fair, it doesn't discredit other scientists talking about the actual strains themselves (and what have you).

In reply to girlymonkey:

Not so sure about mask compliance after todays experience. I was in a shop on a west coast island. Seven people in the shop, including the person running the place, four without masks. Apparently they're in an island bubble. Well, good luck with that. Grrr....   

In reply to Deleated bagger:

Worked well for the 25 Belgians in Antarctica. Not. 

In reply to skog:

A sometime colleague of my wife, who (I think) was an orthopaedic surgeon, recently died of covid related complications, having refused the vaccine and more or less seemed to fit your above description perfectly.  He was in his early 30s with a young family.  What a waste.

Where I live we today (well, yesterday now) had confirmed virus cases 5x the previous highest.  Up from a previous max of 1000 to 5000 in just a few days.  To put into context, a similar number scaled up in the UK would be > 400,000.

The specialist covid wards are just about full, with 85% of the occupants being unvaccinated, despite > 80% of the adult population having had at least one dose of the vaccine.  Routine operations have been cancelled since (iirc) October.  Access to many specialist medics takes months due to the knock on effects of the situation (as an example, I need to see a neurologist with some urgency, and got an appointment for next September).

Despite all this, most of the media (which obviously has agendas of its own) fuels the right wing libertarian tendencies of the population, who struggle to follow the simplest least arduous of rules at the best of times.  Much has been made of the current variant being only 30% as "lethal (sic)", but appear to struggle with the arithmetic of 5n*0.3.   Less seems to have been made of the implications of such large numbers (and their immediate contacts) being made to self-isolate.

Happy new year my arse.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Eejits or people with a medical exemption? Done here it seems that about 50% of people in the supermarket are exempt, 90% in the local shop including the owners and 99% in the petrol station. I fear there is a lot of hidden psychological trauma in South Leeds. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

Thanks for posting, girlymonkey

When it comes to anti-vax eejits, one can read the whole depressing Andrew Wakefield story. It's awful. He seems to have done a huge amount of damage 

Signed, profitofdoom, double Covid vaccinated plus boosted (to be clear)

In reply to profitofdoom:

Indeed... and funded by dirty money.

https://www.channel4.com/programmes/the-anti-vax-conspiracy/on-demand/71923...

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

I think these people are, to a large extent, just the most visible casualties of the cyber warfare that is now well under way.

In this case, people's desire to be 'one of the clever ones' is being used heavily - they can see through it all, work out the truth, they aren't sheep doing what they're told, and all that. Then overpower them with a flood of information - some true, some false, much in between, but too much to process, confirm, or understand, so that they're overwhelmed and start just choosing the bits that feel like they feel should be true, and support or confirm the things they already suspect, true or otherwise.

It's hard to tell which powers are driving what, as confusion is one of the main weapons, but it's very clearly happening.

Unfortunately, with this kind of fight, many victims are effectively then turned into perpetrators and propagators; few will know who they're really fighting for, or what the real goals are.

In reply to Offwidth:

Thanks for helping to remove another few mil of enamel from the teeth gnashing. That Wakefield chap, what a weapons grade cnut he is!

How on earth has society allowed him such a platform. 

In reply to skog:

I think at least some of it is coming from anti climate change groups, if you undermine science and encourage libertarianism then you open up the way for climate denial and deregulation.

these groups (ERG,API etc.) have always dealt in bad science and the misconception that personal liberty and corporate liberty are one and the same.

undermining democracy is just a bonus 😕

In reply to girlymonkey:

I am really glad that the policy in Wales never changed so masks have always been required in shops. When you have stop/start policies then compliance goes down, but that equally could be part of the plan

In reply to girlymonkey:

It seems to be part of a growing general malaise also exhibited by most UKC posters.
A deep seated mindless, hatred and anger at someone or something they feel demands their action or abuse.   Be it directed towards climate change, BLM, brexit, or people in politics.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Mitch Benn not mincing his words.  (Quite sweary.)

This pretty much sums it up for me..
youtube.com/watch?v=YEjcNA4ETxU&

In reply to David 

so wintertrees arguments and thoughtful posts on COVID are mindless

or Stitch plates personal stories about dealing with the everyday consequences are these also mindless?

there is frustration exhibited at times on here but being on the right side of an argument can be frustrating when faced with denial based on lies.

Plus the bots and trolls are not helping

In reply to JoshOvki:

Yes, I think that's why our compliance is largely pretty good too. Although I suspect some communities comply more than others. My closest shop is Waitrose, so the demographic is one which is very likely to follow the rules! But I think generally around here it is reasonably good 

In reply to jethro kiernan:

What is the point of saying silly things like this ?

No.  There is engrained hatred and anger, even threats of violence.   This is wrong, whichever side of the argument you take.  Especially if saying, things are justified because you're right.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I've seen quite variable compliance in supermarkets (in both England and Wales), and in my Sheffield locals I've definitely seen more people not bothering in Waitrose than in Lidl on occasions.  (As well as vice-versa.)

I wonder if another demographic has a more significant affect than the 'poshness' of the shop - age, gender, that kind of thing, which probably varies quite markedly with the time of day.

In reply to David Riley:

If you see threats of violence on here hit the 'report' button and let the mods know about it and the poster in question will be banned immediately.

In reply to David Riley:

This is nothing new. People always get angry about things they percieve as wrong. People get angry about all sorts of stuff like Prince Andrew's sexual habits, nine eleven,  or holocaust deniers.

Personally I prefer reasoned debate but I can understand why people get frustrated

In reply to girlymonkey:

Then there are these arseholes, including Piers Corbyn:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-beds-bucks-herts-59826625

In reply to girlymonkey:

I think it is healthier to focus on what we can do rather than what others won't do. Without forceful control of people this is how the world looks. It is not worth ruining your precious days over it of risking something very unfortunate happening to yourself in getting into conflict over it. Unfortunately, there is a lot of media outlets all free to say what they want even to the most vulnerable people and it is not nice for those who have been led astray to be called bad names. This doesn't win friends in any argument and will further divide people and cause rebellious behaviour . All big events in the world will have divided opinion and that's just that. So I personally do what I can, thank my lucky stars I'm here with my health and don't let people irritate me too much. Life is too precious and short to waste feeling angry.

In reply to captain paranoia:

I've got the perfect job for Piers Corbyn: pilot on the next one-way rocket to the stars like Voyager 1. Not a round trip. Leaving next week. On which NASA sadly "forget" to include a radio

In reply to Sean_J:

9.81kN surely? 😉

In reply to HENRY31: Henry, while I appreciate your sentiment j don't altogether agree. Some things are simply wrong, and beyond a bit of 'live and let live'.  Use holocaust denial as an example 

In reply to David Riley:

I think you'll find that the actual violence going on is all being perpetrated by the anti-vaxxers. I suggest you look at what the scumbags have just done in Milton Keynes, quite apart from what was posted above by girlymonkey to start this thread.

I regard what these people are doing as nothing less than domestic terrorism, and to treat people who get upset at such actions as being equally bad is tripe.

In reply to David Riley:

Funny you should mention Brexit; links keep cropping up between pro-Brexit campaigns and some of anti-lockdown, anti-control measure Covid protest groups...

https://bylinetimes.com/2020/11/03/time-for-recovery-lockdown-nigel-farage-...

https://bylinetimes.com/2021/04/01/disinformation-lobbyists-and-brexit-busi...

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/wil_yeadon_retract_and_apologis...

In reply to wbo2:

Hi, That is of course a fair point. But for 1000's of years people have been experiencing these issues in their society. There are plenty of things that require brave and selfless action. Despite the risks. But my point remains. That society really does not need to show the next generation that name calling and hatred is okay either way. There are just some things that don't need us to expend all our precious time being angry about. Especially holocaust deniers. It unfortunately was very clearly a sad moment in history and thankfully the people who matter agree, so don't waste your time fixated on the few who disagree. You will spend the rest of your life like a coiled angry spring. There are no methods available to change everyone to agree on the same things. Maybe, that's a good thing or we would all agree to everything whether it's true or false, good or bad. 

Anyway, I am really grateful to have some opinions to my post and I hope my reply is fair. I am probably going to skip replying in future if that's okay with anyone else to save going back and fourth. Happy new year to everyone and lets hope to have a healthy and happy 2022 .

Henry

In reply to HENRY31:

Possibly more important is to show that lies and misinformation will not be tolerated.

In reply to captain paranoia:

People have just run out of patience.  This isn't a political discussion as David says above, this is defying objective reality, which is killing people.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Very good cause indeed. Probably the biggest problem of all humanity for as long as humanity has been around. Believe me, I see how it’s tearing humanity apart. But the drama we see everyday is because everyone lets it. Misinformation and lies are a HUGE problem now in the digital age and it should be curbed. But have no doubt people will disagree until we are gone on absolutely everything. 

In reply to George Ormerod:

I had a PCR test on Boxing Day. I was on the train home this afternoon, imagining how I would have reacted if Piers Moron had turned up. I confess my thoughts turned to violence; at a minimum, ripping his megaphone from his hand and using it to yell in his ear...

In reply to girlymonkey:

I hope your mum reports it to the police, it's weird enough that they should investigate.

You might also contact the university to inform them of your concerns, they won't want more whack-jobs causing trouble on campus (they employ enough of those already) and can get their security teams to keep an eye on signage and loiterers etc.

Your post immediately reminded me of The Love Bug, and The Whacky Races - https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RoadSignReversal

The problem here is that we've got a bunch of people spiralling towards diagnosable delusional disorders, and the walls of their constructed reality are coming crumbling down as the world around them moves on.  I've only had limited in-person interactions with someone in that situation but it became progressively uglier as their need to hide away from objective reality forced them deeper and deeper down the rabbit hole.  

I don't like where this is going.

In reply to wintertree:

Plenty of evidence of this on both sides of the divide. Folk out there still think it’s the next bubonic plague. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Really?  Seems like a false equivalence to me.  Consider these "folk":

1. Are they holding large rallies?
2. Are they attacking public health facilities?
3. Are they harassing people in the street?
4. Are they running dozens of well funding websites backed by a clutch of UK Limited companies connected to other political causes?  
5. Is there an informal group of dozens of conservative MPs with the express intent of locking the country down as if the bubonic plague was on the loose? 

I await some evidence on most of those points with bated breath; there's no shortage of evidence in the other direction.

In reply to wintertree:

Fine, ignore it. I didn’t say that they posed a threat, I was replying to the point you were making of people having delusion disorders. Proving precisely my point, so much focus on the ‘wrong‘ side, and no help for those struggling down the rabbit hole on the ‘right’. Maybe you should take a look at yourself.

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

You said: “Plenty of evidence of this on both sides of the divide.”

Yet the evidence on one side includes a growing series of protests against and attacks on hospitals, vaccination centres and testing sites.

On the other side?  You decline to provide anything.

The level of action driven by the delusional thinking out there is entirely one sided.  You decline to even try and show otherwise.

If you are saying I’m down a rabbit hole thinking this is like the bubonic plague, you’re out of your f*cking mind.

I’ve spent the past half-year getting flack from people who think we should be limiting the spread of cases far more than we are, for giving my interpretation of why allowing the spread we have done was beneficial in some ways, arguing against one sided claims of doom and disaster.

Ive been very clear, for a long time, that I saw the benefits of the UK allowing delta to spread from the summer onwards.  Hardly down a rabbit hole of thinking it’s the bubonic plague?  Please.

If you honestly think I’ve been arguing down a rabbit hole along bubonic plague lines instead of trying to find the best data and science driven interpretation I can of our situation and in the process coming to understand the risk posed by both action and inaction, well if you think that it’s just become a lot easier to ignore what you think frankly.

I have gone out of my way over the last 18 months to deconstruct the deceptive narratives being used to push people down the rabbit hole, and multiple times I’ve said I see them more as victims than anything else.  That doesn’t change the existential threat they pose to healthcare as everyone else gets ready to move on, and if doesn’t change the evidence over the increasing number of attacks they’re conducting on healthcare facilities 

I’ve done what little I can to help, and if it little.  Still, snipe away…

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

I see you deleted your reply to me.  I’d already replied, and I’m loath to waste it now I can’t post it in reply, so here it is…

You said, and I quote directly:

Perhaps you were unclear and I took the wrong meaning from what you said. If so, I apologies for going off on one based on my misunderstanding 

You told me to “take a look at yourself.”  You, in that comment, made it about me. Specifically and personally.  I replied about me, and you mock me for it with your “I, I, I.. Well done”

Frankly, you seem rather confused.

I did look at myself, and I clarified to you the effort I’ve invested in making a data and science driven case that this is no longer in any way comparable to the bubonic plague - or, more relevantly - to covid as was in March 2019 - and that the threats it now poses are nuanced and need a nuanced understanding.

What more do you want me to do?  Break in to places where people overly terrified of covid are and tell them it’s not so bad, before nicking some of their stuff?   The anti-lockdown/vax/mask bridge apparently have that covered…

Edit: added a screenshot of your deleted reply to make it clear I’m neither selectively quoting you nor mis quoting you.

In reply to wintertree:

You did misunderstand and that was possibly due to the bad wording following New Year’s Day drinking. Hence the deletion for a reply in the morning. 

In reply to mrphilipoldham:

Well, I hope my reply makes clear I don’t think it’s good that people go down a doom-and-gloom rabbit hole either; and that I’ve invested (too much) time in trying to present a rational case against that too.  This includes to friends “in real life” who took the pandemic hard and bad, failing to separate their low immediate/personal risk from the high indirect/societal risk (the same problem under a lot of the anti-mask/vax/control measures sentiment but approached from the other side) as well as pointless arguing on UKC.

The evidence remains, however, strongly in favour of only one side of the over-polarised views crossing over into societally harmful and increasingly violent vacation.

In reply to deepsoup:

It seems posts have been removed without any further input from me.

In reply to girlymonkey:

"Anti-vaxxers storming NHS facility made me feel sick | The Independent" https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/vaccine-piers-corbyn-milton-keynes-b19...

In reply to wintertree:

Excellent point, wintertree. That had never occurred to me. But I'm starting to see the light 

Thanks for posting 

I'm learning 

In reply to TheDrunkenBakers:

Was there a complete intelligence failure on the part of the police here for this to happen?  This is a serious public order offence.

I'm no fan of the old time SPG but it would be satisfying to see these folk met forcefully

In reply to wintertree:

I'm pretty sure this is going the same way as the attacks on abortion clinics in the US (or indeed the previous actions of animal rights activists in this country).

First heavy-handed "protests", then forcing their way into locations and threatening behaviour toward those working at or using the facilities - we've had these two stages.

The next stage will be direct violence against the workforce and those trying to obtain vaccination, followed by arson and quite possibly some sort of bomb threats (and eventually attacks).

All in all these persons need to be redefined. They are NOT "protesters" as we know and understand them in this country, they are terrorists, who are acting upon "data" principally from foreign sources. Whether this classifies them as domestic or foreign is a moot point.

In reply to fred99:

Yup.  I’ve been calling the anti-vax/mask/control measures issue one of national security for a year or so; too much organised and orchestrated activity behind it.  In terms of those swayed by it, prevent referrals get made for less grounds in other areas.

Other areas are under attack in the US as well.  Some time ago I worked with a person who had been trained in checking for car bombs as part of their previous job in the US.  Hint - they didn’t work for the bomb squad.

We have a state security apparatus.  We should use it.

In reply to Andy Gamisou:

Similar to Chris Whitty's slide from the 15th December Downing Street Press Briefing, which was pretty much as xkcd saw it.

 

In reply to wercat:

I think we need to give the cops a couple of weeks.   If the cops have decided that tactically they prefer to go and get them later based on CCTV / their own social media and bystander cellphone footage rather than use force at the time that's fair enough as an operational decision.  If they've decided to ignore it, that isn't.  A cop knocking on your door and going to court and getting a criminal record is maybe a better deterrent for those people.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Hi it is, like most complicated problems - complicated. It isn't just Daily Mail readers.

1. There are a number of right wing/conservatives and or libertarians (they are not necessarily the same in terms of psychology)who want to interpret and or discredit the science to support their views about; the economy, individual autonomy vs the group.  Individualists. This group generally think of the word as a self-stabilising place- things return to normal with no effort. So intervention is not required. Nature is benign. I the context of COVID; it isn't that bad, no more than a cold, it only affects the elderly- who will die soon anyway, the scientists are over egging things to suit their own agendas, mask wearing is  a sign of supplication to scientists who should not be in charge, things will sort themselves out, the economy is more important and the Invisible Hand will sort it. There is usually an educational history which does not include scientific thinking. Opinions follow evidence and can change is not in the mindset. Rather a philosophical position is held and then argued for, cherry picking evidence that supports and downplaying the evidence that doesn't. Lawyers, economists, political scientists. What do 'experts' know?

2. But also a rather different set of people. Egalitarians. Who tend to be on a completely different part of the political spectrum. They see nature as in a perpetual state of peril. The natural order is always fragile and anything might catastrophically destabilise it. This can often also be linked with a general tendency to chemophobia- and beliefs in which 'natural' is best. Human immunity is fragile and will be overwhelmed by vaccines, natural infection is better than immunisation, diseases are marketed to sell cures, vaccinations (well actually in this case not vaccinations- immunisations) are bad, unnecessary, cause harms (and there is confusion about the risks of action vs inaction), mistrust of authority. Technology is always risky, not enough is known, things are being withheld from us, 'I innately know' . There is no objective reality. Social constructivists.  Other humanities. Mask wearing and immunistaions are part of something bigger that is being hidden from us. What do 'experts' know?

3. Then the more scientific rationalists. Hierarchists. Nature is stable within limits- but beyond that the scales are tipped. Usually a science background or inclination. Immunisation and mask wearing are a good idea as far as the evidence goes- but this might change in future. Experts know stuff

4. Then the Fatalists- shit happens- there is nothing we can do. So why bother?

This is very nicely set out in a couple of books / pamphlets.  

1. Taking account of societal concerns about risk. HSE https://www.hse.gov.uk/research/rrpdf/rr035.pdf

2. Risk by John Adams. available free as a pdf.- It is quite long.

None of the above is new. (BSE, and Brent Spar are good examples of how this stuff works out).

Boris Johnson is an individualist. Of BSE he wrote in The Telegraph “I shall continue to eat beef. Yum, yum.” Boris Johnson, Weekly Telegraph, no 245. 

“I have not got a scientific opinion worth listening to. My job is simply to make certain that the evidence is drawn to the attention of the public and the Government does what we are told is necessary.” Health Secretary Stephen Dorrell, Daily Telegraph, 22.3.96 

“They should shoot the scientists, not cull the calves. Nobody seems to know what is going on.” Dairy Farmer quoted in The Times (2.8.96) 

·Feeding dead sheep to cattle, or dead cattle to sheep, is “unatural” and “perverted”. “The present methods of the agricultural industry are fundamentally unsustainable.” “Risk is not actually about probabilities at all. It’s all about the trustworthiness of the institutions which are telling us what the risk is.” (Michael Jacobs, The Guardian, 24.7.96) As for delusional disorders. Tricky. (coi- I am a psychiatrist and have been for 30 years- I more or less exclusively deal with people with psychosis). There will be some, I guess a minority- but probably the most vociferous / active / persistent. But not so many. There are unfortunately no really good definitions of what delusions are (people will do a quick Google here and then tell me I'm wrong- but I'm really not). The best one is not well known in the English speaking world. It is from Karl Jaspers- 'a belief of unique personal significance' (but this is only one of the things he said about delusions (so people will also say I'm wrong).  Delusions need not be false (despite most of the definitions). For example- 'my wife is having an affair' can be - delusional and also true. Likewise 'I have cancer' or 'my skin is crawling with parasites' (we all have vast numbers of parasites / creepy crawlies- have a Google for Demodex). But when beliefs (no matter how off beat / wrong / ununderstandable) are in keeping with a (sub)culture- are they delusions? Well usually not- but sometimes they are. Religions are good examples. I've recently seen a couple of people with COVID as part of much wider delusional systems- long predating COVID- but now including it. So as well as believing that MI5, the CIA and others are monitoring / watching and influencing them via electronic devices and so (one) bought a metal mesh hoodie and balaclava (https://emf-protection.co.uk/ and there is a sale on) they now are absolutely sure that COVID is part of the New World Order etc etc etc.

You can't argue with the Anti-vaxxers (who are actually anti-immunisers) and it is  bad idea to- just ignore them. It isn't that helpful for them to pop up in the media (a bit like the climate change numpties who are invited to provide 'editorial balance'). 

..... It isn't that helpful for them to pop up in the media (a bit like the climate change numpties who are invited to provide 'editorial balance'). 

The trouble with providing "editorial balance" is that known lies are being promulgated.

The BBC in particular (and all other broadcasters for that matter) should not be providing equal "balance" where one side is stating known truths, and the other known lies. Indeed they should surely be doing the exact opposite - airing the truth, and pointing out, in detail, exactly how these lies are indeed lies.

This should be the case even when (supposedly) political views are being expounded - there should be no sacred cows. If, for example, the outright lies put about during the Brexit debacle had been exposed straight off, rather than given air time, then we would be in a far different place now, and dare I say it, a better one.

When these lies are being funded from abroad, then it's even more important that this is made known.

In reply to fred99:

Pritti Patel will be so pleased to hear you say this. It shows how popular her hastily-added anti-protest measures will be.

Now about that question of intelligence failure allowing this to take place...

In reply to wercat:

The cops might have been making the mistake these muppets were more competent than they are and so were hanging around the vaccination centres instead.

It becomes obvious why their mantra of "do your own research"  is slightly flawed.

In reply to mbh:

I'd have thought the hand drawn graph with no units would have shown the "vaccine group" again  separating from the placebo group once individuals attained maximum immunity but with covid cases still rising with time but much less steeply (rather than almost plateauing as in the graph). Presumably the vaccine group covid cases would actually start rising faster after a few months when immunity waned. I find the graph a bit hard to understand and it may be misleading, perhaps that's just me.

In reply to girlymonkey:

Risk Street Dumbarton test centre: Police probe fire-raising attack

https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/19820205.risk-street-dumbarton-test-cen...

In reply to oldie:

Thanks for that level of detail. I put the xkcd cartoon up because, as a continual student of statistics and frequent teacher to science students who have no interest in or idea of statistics, it made me laugh, as does so much of his output. Chris Whitty's slide reminded me of it. The comparison was only intended to highlight the stark difference between one group and another.

In reply to oldie:

The hand drawn graph is a joke from a science based joke cartoon series.

https://xkcd.com/
 

i agree the lack of units is distressing

In reply to freeheel47:

Thank you for this post - it's both fascinating and useful, and one of the best I've seen on here. It's a bit of a shame it's buried so deeply in a thread!

In reply to Dr.S at work:

But if relative difference is the issue, why do the units matter?

In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

It's tempting to go vigilante against these morons. Keep your head down for 12 months and you're in the  clear

In reply to Maggot:

I have to admit I'd have found it amusing if they'd broken into one of those tents and discovered it was staffed by the army.

In reply to elsewhere:

Concerning - but probably just as likely to be drunk lads setting fire to it for fun, as a targeted attack.

In reply to elsewhere:

I'm behind in the times, only just saw this on BBC red button.

How long before the bombings ?

Makes me sick - have you read this Philip from Oldham ??

Both sides equally violent ? - just proves what a lying bullshitter you are.

In reply to mbh: and Dr.S. at work

Thanks. Missed the joke completely. Doh.

In reply to freeheel47:

Well said

In reply to girlymonkey:

I live in Stroud Town. Nuff said bar I restrict myself to a polite "F¥ck off" when I pass the loons on the High St every day. Remember the Gloucester Royal 'filming empty wards' crap last year? Them. 

Admins, I could have written f*ck, but really, what is the difference?

In reply to David Alcock:

And it wouldn't be 'inappropriate', either...

In reply to captain paranoia:

I once wasted three quarters of an hour debating with them. When the guy (Light magazine guy) told me in all seriousness he'd never even taken any drug including paracetamol (in between puffs on his spliff) I lost all hope. Hence my subsequent succinctness. I even helped the hospital woman become a town Councillor before she went fruitloop. I know these people, and they are 95% moron these days. 

In reply to girlymonkey:

That's a despicable thing to do to anyone!!

My only contribution / observation I can add to this thread is anecdotal. My girlfriend (of sorts) who I haven't seen in person for nearly two years - is heavily into the anti vax / conspiracy camp and gets very angry about what she perceives has happened. I, paradoxically, am triple jabbed and stringently follow infection control procedures as part of my job, transporting patients, sometimes covid positive ones.

I love this person (she would never do anything as sickening as what you have described), but chasm between our standpoints is so colossal that we barely keep in touch. Sometimes, I have walked away for several months at a time.

Looking back on the last couple of years, it's been like some kind of dark Scorsese film and despite all of this experience, I don't have any answers regarding changing peoples mindsets.

I find this quote from Yuri Alexandrovich Bezmenov (a KGB defector) chillingly apt.

“As I mentioned before, exposure to true information does not matter anymore,” said Bezmenov. “A person who was demoralized is unable to assess true information. The facts tell nothing to him. Even if I shower him with information, with authentic proof, with documents, with pictures; even if I take him by force to the Soviet Union and show him [a] concentration camp, he will refuse to believe it, until he [receives] a kick in his fan-bottom. When a military boot crashes his balls then he will understand. But not before that. That’s the [tragedy] of the situation of demoralization.”

In reply to girlymonkey:

I suppose we should be thankful our own morons incumbent have yet reached US levels of f*ckwittery

Marjorie Taylor Greene: Twitter bans congresswoman over Covid misinformation https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-59854916

In reply to Stichtplate:

Bit rich her claiming Twitter is an 'enemy of America', when her like are the real enemies.

In reply to broken spectre:

I've met 3 women who are anti vaxxers.  Explanation? Women desire control- especially in a world of low female self esteem, and it  can easily be expressed through being in control of one's body??. Unfortuneately this leads to a suspicion, over self reliance and women can have a strong identification with "naturalism" to compensate. However," naturalism " can be limited in it's understanding. An introduction to "naturalism" -as to the way nature really works -is the following:  https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m0012tzh/royal-institution-christmas-...

But then you suggesting it may be the problem!How to suggest without seeming to control?