Another referendum called for

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 subtle 15 Oct 2019

SNP confirming they will seek second referendum on whether to remain in UK or not for next year 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-50036176

Interesting times

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Gone for good 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Nothing interesting about this old chestnut. For every good reason to remain in the EU there is an equivalent reason for Scotland to remain in the UK. Sturgeon talks of Scotland being a bridge between the EU and rUK but that bridge already exists in Northern Ireland which is a lot better placed to carry on with providing a pathway to EU goods and services. No good economic news is coming out of Scotland yet promises of ever more public spending are coming out of the conference. The magic money tree seems to have taken root in Holyrood. Never mind, when it all goes wrong she can blame the English.

Post edited at 16:48
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OP subtle 15 Oct 2019
In reply to Gone for good:

Meh, Scotland voted to remain in Europe, wants to remain in Europe, if, and its still a big if, the UK does leave then why not allow the Scots to have a vote on whether to break ties with Uk and, presumably, rejoin Europe - ferry ports already exist to bring in goods from Europe, can then transfer them by road to UK a lot easier than N Ireland can.

Magic money tree - all politicians use this.

If the Scots do leave then it will stop them always blaming the English, they will have to stand on their own two feet, in Europe, good luck to them. 

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 Tyler 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

>ferry ports already exist to bring in goods from Europe, can then transfer them by road to UK a lot easier than N Ireland can.

But not as easily as bringing straight from the continent to the rUK surely?

Removed User 15 Oct 2019
In reply to Gone for good:

Agreed.

If we do leave the EU with a deal it'll hit GDP by maybe 2%.

Independence for Scotland would hit its GDP by maybe 8%.

There are other reasons for wanting independence but there is no economic argument for it. Quite the reverse.

...and if we don't leave the EU then there is no reason for another referendum. The last one was "for a generation" as the SNP never tired of reminding us. Their only justification for agitating for a new one is Brexit.

Which is why David Cameron is a tollie if the highest order.

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Gone for good 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Scotland also voted to remain in the UK in case you forgot. Selective memory I assume.  By the way, the blame game will have barely begun. Once the economic problems are laid bare for all to see the SNP fingers will be pointing in a southerly direction forever more. 

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 FreshSlate 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

> SNP confirming they will seek second referendum on whether to remain in UK or not for next year 

> Interesting times

They are literally called the Scottish National Party. Like UKIP their whole party is predicated on one issue, so it's not suprising they are calling for another referendum.

The result for indyref was far clearer than the brexit vote which hasn't had a second referendum yet. 

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 Doug 15 Oct 2019
In reply to Gone for good:

> Scotland also voted to remain in the UK in case you forgot.

having been repeatedly told that was the sure way to be part of the EU. The UK not being in the EU changes quite a lot

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Gone for good 15 Oct 2019
In reply to Doug:

I can accept that argument in part but it doesn't change anywhere as near as much as it would if Scotland left the UK. Besides, what does independence really mean? If you won't be governed by Westminster you'll be governed by Brussels with a far smaller seat at the table, a far quieter voice to make yourself heard and much, much less influence. 

Post edited at 18:31
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 DerwentDiluted 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

There is a cynical side of me that wonders if any shortfall in an Independent Scottish GDP might be made up by EU subsidy. Not lavish mind, just enough for every citizen of Scotland to sail their yacht down to Cowes for the regatta.

 rogerwebb 15 Oct 2019
In reply to Doug:

> having been repeatedly told that was the sure way to be part of the EU. The UK not being in the EU changes quite a lot

To be fair in 2014 remaining in the UK was the only way to remain in the EU.

You will notice that no one is even trying to argue that we can remain in the EU and all acknowledge that we would have to apply to join. 

Having said that you are quite right brexit changes a lot and makes calls for a second referendum a deal more reasonable. 

I very much doubt however that Nicola Sturgeon actually wants a S30 order right now. If she got one she is as likely to lose as to win at the moment. Whereas rejection will build support and the asking will allow her to keep her more troublesome supporters in line. 

Lusk 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

I heard her saying today the SNP were going to ban fracking, yet, only a few months ago ...
https://www.heraldscotland.com/news/17741566.snp-ministers-extend-fracking-...

No mention of the oil and gas fields, as well.

100% Carbon neutral by 2045 my arse!

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 jasonC abroad 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

If we leave the EU with or without a deal I can't really see how anyone can complain about the Scottish taking control of their borders etc, it seems to be the fashion these days.  As a country they voted to remain but that doesn't really does mean much to a government/conservative party that has to leave somehow. 

 yorkshire_lad2 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

If SNP wish to have another referendum (and potentially break up The Union), please may the rest of the Union take part in the referendum, as it affects them.

OTOH (1) perhaps the English should have a referendum to leave the union, and see how the Scots get on then!

OTOH (2), Yes, please do have another indyref Scotland, and if you get the result you want, see if you can get back into the EU (join the back of the queue???)

9
 kevin stephens 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Premature bollox really. The UK could still have and win a second (third actually) referendum to stay in the EU anytime in the next 6 months which would take away a big part of the SNP’s argument for independence. Even if unfortunately the UK leaves the E U there’s no way an independent Scotland would be allowed to join the EU whilst still using sterling. Could Scotland meet the economic and fiscal requirements to join the EU?

1
 Rob Exile Ward 15 Oct 2019
In reply to kevin stephens:

If the UK really does leave the EU then I'm seriously thinking about moving to Scotland and supporting independence.

Scotland won't have a problem adopting the euro, but that will stop the UK rejoining in my lifetime. Scotland, as an English speaking, highly developed economy, could pick up a lot of the opportunities that the rest of the UK are about to flush down the toilet.

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 Fruit 15 Oct 2019
In reply to subtle:

Best of three anyone?

1
 oldie 16 Oct 2019
In reply to jasonC abroad:

> If we leave the EU with or without a deal I can't really see how anyone can complain about the Scottish taking control of their borders etc, it seems to be the fashion these days.  

Very little mention of the problems that will be faced by an independent Scotland (and by England and Wales) if UK has previously left with no deal (or even with the proposed deal). Surely for Scotland to join the EU would require there to be a hard border on mainland UK with tariffs, controlled movement of people etc?

 Robert Durran 16 Oct 2019
In reply to FreshSlate:

> They are literally called the Scottish National Party. Like UKIP their whole party is predicated on one issue.

True, but whereas UKIP take a dangerous populist approach to their issue, the SNP do quite the opposite.

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 Robert Durran 16 Oct 2019
In reply to Removed User:

> There are other reasons for wanting independence but there is no economic argument for it. Quite the reverse.

Yes, whereas there is a now a very strong political case for independence (broadly social democratic consensus, escape from Brexit and it's destructive divisiveness, escape from Westminster's divisive two party FPTP system regularly imposing broadly hated tory governments), the economic case is looking pretty weak. The debate in a possible Indyref2 will be based on these two competing cases.

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 jasonC abroad 16 Oct 2019
In reply to oldie:

Your right but I think this might be an issue people vote on based on their feelings rather than a good understanding of the issues.  If the Scottish people feel totally pissed off with the Westminister government then leaving might seem like a good idea.

 fred99 16 Oct 2019
In reply to jasonC abroad:

Is it not possible that some (currently very powerful) members of the Tory Party, even though it's officially called the "Conservative and UNIONIST Party", actually want Scotland to leave the Union ?

After all, very few constituencies in Scotland return a Tory to Westminster, and hence without Scotland, the Tories have a much better chance of achieving a majority on a regular basis.

For that reason alone - and I'm sure most scots would at least sympathise - I'd prefer Scotland to remain in the Union.

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