UKH

I'm totally convinced. Anybody else? 

Where do I sign up! If only we'd know all that was needed was boundless, baseless optimism and a far right coup we could have done it years ago.

Jk

As it’s Boris saying it, it must be true. He would never lie!

Golden brown age maybe . 

A shi!!ty version of a moonage daydream.  

Texture like sun

I feel all

youtube.com/watch?v=RswoQJUGI6Q&

I used to love that show. 

alternatively

https://www.facebook.com/JonathanPieReporter/videos/363928744317161/

Golden brown, or at least the pharmaceutical’s equivalent product is how millions of Americans are dealing with globalisation as applied in their country. 

How far behind are we?

It’s better than a Beige Age under the bearded gloomster.

Why bring Bill Oddie into this? 

I think a bit of beige would be great, a period of bland non-offensive politics where nothing much happens. But as long as you're happy with Bojo.

I’m generally reasonably competent in speaking for myself ta.

He’s a Cnut and he can f*ck right off. 

So's your mate  youtube.com/watch?v=FwiORpBj8P8&

I nearly puked, but, thanks.

Blimey! You actually really do like him.

Remember: All that glisters is not gold...

Ha! Brilliant...

try this one..   https://au.toluna.com/opinions/3909296/See-what-happens-when-a-donkey-taps-...

Huzzah for Rickets, child labour and hanging say I!

sums up the current Selfservatives

And a Brave New Peterloo Spirit!

Well, so far my reflections on  Bojo premiership...

I can't get this image out of my head;  I'm just coming round from a deep jet lagged snooze and it takes a moment to orientate myself. Ah, that's it, I remember now. I'm off on that trip I've had coming up for ages, the seat itself is comfortable, the bus gaudily decorated with icons to a religion I don't share. Thoughts more lucid now, I'm on a Jingle bus, on the Karakorum highway. The view rushes past, the cliff edges are sheer and are uncomfortably close, a river rages below, both muddy and turquoise, terrifying and exhilarating in equal measure, too close by half yet distant, a miscalculation now and all is lost. My anxiety is quelled only by that British habit of instinctive trusting deference to those in charge...  the tannoy splutters into life..

"Welcome to a Brave Dave mega adventure, I'm your driver and Mountain Guide for K2, I'm calling this 'The Big One'...."

A Golden Age - I'm not holding my breath.

One of Johnson's announcements (an increase of 20,000 in police numbers) sounds like many of his previous ones - say something that is sounds good (and I think having more police is a good idea) without first considering how it is going to be done; just typical of Boris.

Interesting comment in the BBC article -   https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-49123319 -

"Downing Street said a recruitment campaign would begin in September, with forces held to account for meeting the target by a new board, bringing together police leaders and led by Home Secretary Priti Patel."

Wonder how forces are supposed to meet targets if insufficient police officers have been trained.

Dave

Whose job is it to recruit officers?

The country is lacking in confidence due to a series of fairly uncharismatic leaders. 

Brown, was there just to hold the fort until we could get Labour out. Cameron was pretty much hindered by what he could achieve due to the crash. May took on something she didn’t believe in. 

The country needs a strong leader with direction, whether or not you agree with their policies or not. Corbyn is the last thing we need. He was blasted by Boris yesterday in the commons. 

The vast majority of people (UKC members aside) want to hear good news. 

The police are down on numbers which means they’re all doing overtime to cover absence and shortfall which is costing more money in the long run and causing more disillusionment.

Time to move on with Brexit and get some confidence back in the government and country. 

The arrogance would be breathtaking - if he means it seriously.  So much of what he says is tongue in cheek and said for entertainment value, so how can we be sure?

I'm reminded of something I heard from a US commentator when Trump was elected: people who are surprised that he won made the mistake of taking him literally, but not seriously; you have to learn to take him seriously, but not literally.

'Time to move on with Brexit and get some confidence back in the government and country. '

Aye, but ye canna defy the laws of Physics, Captain...

When a black hole opens up in the treasury, food and medicines disappear off the shelves, and lambs have to be slaughtered and dumped in landfill because they can no longer be exported in a timely manner, then it may be a little difficult to regain confidence.

Did you listen to his full speech? 

For a start they could re employ civilians in roles where in order to meet budget cuts, they have had to get rid of them and put serving officers in those back office roles (on account you can make a civilian redundant and not a police officer).

Although it beats me how having made the cuts to fit the decreased budgets in the first place - they now have to find more, plus give the officers a pay rise - all within their current budgets?.. unless some money from the magic tree has dropped into the regions coffers.

The amount of time and effort it has taken in order to work the numbers to trim down the police service with the cuts.. and now having to start again and being told at the same time they are going to be held to account if they don't meet targets.

I did - completely unrealistic. An appeal to the emotions, not a serious programme. A campaign speech actually. When's the election?

Yeah - but what's your relationship with "Brave (dangerous) Dave"?

Oh we do too, we just care that the good news is a) true, b) sustainable.

jk

No. A call to action with a plan. 

You were probably listening with a closed mind. 

Autumn:

1) Talk big nationally about Britain's glorious future.

2) Make a big song and dance about renegotiating the WA. Go to Brussels, make a show about sweet-talking them. Get rejected because Brussels have repeatedly said they won't renegotiate.

3) Talk up a no-deal Brexit, coalescing opposition in the Commons.

4) Parliament rejects a no-deal Brexit.

5) Get some extension from Brussels.

6) Call an election.

7) Campaign on the basis of Brussel's intransigence and Parliament being full of traitors.

No. This place is full of negativity. Never seen a place with so little optimism. 

Except that he is now negotiating with different people as the EU leaders all changed. 

A strong authoritarian leader is the last thing we need, what we need a competent democracy capable of making compromises.

'No. This place is full of negativity. Never seen a place with so little optimism. '

There are times when optimism - AKA wishful thinking - simply isn't justified. We *know* there's an intractable problem in Ireland; we *know* that the 27 countries remaining in the EU will look after their collective interests first; we *know* that the attractiveness of the UK as somewhere to invest will plummet after a no deal Brexit. Why would YOU invest here if you could invest somewhere just 20 miles away that would give you tariff free trade to 500 million consumers and access to trade deals with the rest of the world? This isn't pessimism; this is fact.

If you fall off a cliff you can be as optimistic as you like but it won't stop grim reality catching up with you.

So what in your opinion should we be looking forward to in the next 1, 2, 5 and 10 years as a result of the choices we've made (or not) in the last few?

I see a failed country I no longer think of as home and can see no way to fix. I see a country flirting with civil war. But wait, what, BORIS is PM! Silly me for fearing a gradual slide toward economic ruin, environmental catastrophe, social disintegration, the loss of invaluable rights and freedoms, border and resource conflicts within what was for most of my life a stable, prosperous and improving political union. Praise be, we're saved by liar-king Boris fu*king Johnson and his Faragist cabinet of sell-outs, has-beens, crooks and delusional right-wing incompetents hell bent on playing chicken with the EU's freight train.

I can't believe I've been looking at this the wrong way... roll on the tax cuts, deportations and public hangings I say!

jk

It really doesn't matter. From his perspective any negotiation won't be intended to achieve anything, it'll just be for show for the national audience.

Group4 waiting in the wings - or anyone of another collection of trough-hoovering ‘not for profit’ Oxbridge types

Yep.  That's about how I feel about it.  The triumph of populist fantasists peddling a Disneyfied version of pre-Beeching Imperial Britain at the expense of 21st Century internationalism, free movement and the gradually increasing irrelevance of Irish border. 

There are plans and there are plans... what he's proposed is broadbrush stuff, some of which is impossible under present conditions. 

As for a closed mind, I'd suggest that you are simply believing what you want to believe. 

Disneyfied?  We should be so lucky.  We've been reduced to the level of the f*cking Tellytubbies!

https://ichef.bbci.co.uk/news/660/cpsprodpb/C5F1/production/_108037605_thes...

Wow!

I thought much the same, 10 years spent cutting numbers and budgets to suit austerity, only for it all to be reversed.

I see police indicating they don't have sufficient trainers or facilities to support 20K new recruits, at least in the short term.

As usual, a well though out and coherent long term plan by the Tories.

Truthful, sharply focused fact, even though it may seem pessimistic, is far better than blind optimism.

In times of political crisis, such as we have now, realistic goals are essential from those who are supposed to be leading the debate.

On the subject of debate, is your primary prerequisite for a 'strong leader' one who is able to 'blast the opposition'? Can you explain why, and to what end?

I have done this on another thread but it is too important for only one

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-49127616

Not in My Name

Economics and politics is driven by people’s will. Their will to make things happen. Their will to overcome obstacles. 

Really, the people on this forum have no will to make Brexit succeed. The country is full of negativity and pessimism due to austerity. People have been calling for an end to austerity and when it finally comes they’re not happy? Why? Because it’s the conservatives and not Labour. 

This country really doesn’t deserve to do well with that attitude. 

So instead of complaining it can’t be done because there are no resources, you go back and tell them what resources you need to make it happen. Yep, 10 years of austerity have meant hard cuts, now it’s time to spend, everyone is complaining? I just don’t get it. 

This is the result of Brown’s end to “boom and bust” people have forgotten how to ride the boom and bust cycles. 

People don’t like change, it upsets their little world, change is inevitable, trying to hold back the tide just leaves everyone in it up to their necks. 

"now its time to spend"????? Tell that to Kirklees council, who are still facing a massive funding gap, much like many others. Once again you are clinging to fantasies, while others are actually seeing reality

There are a number of issues with the suggestion that now is the time for spending, not least of which is the fact that there is precious little money to spend, and raising more money involves either increased tax revenues, or increased borrowing. Borrowing is something that few of the current Cabinet have been in support of for the past decade, and increasing tax revenues may well prove to be difficult given the parlous state of the economy. All one ever hears of from the right of the Tory party (now thoroughly in control) is the need for tax cuts, and many of the Cabinet are definite in favour of small-government policies. These do not align with Johnson's campaign rhetoric. 

It's all very well wishing for thing to be better, but as the hapless May insisted at the last election, there is no magic money tree. 

I see negativity. There was me thinking austerity created more contraction leading to more austerity ad infinitum. So there’s currently no money because austerity has stopped it. 

May is gone. 

Corbyn came up with a magic money tree, although he was going to fix everyone by taking from the poor. 

We shall see what happens. 

What did the markets do yesterday after his speech? 

She may be gone, but the arrival of Johnson has not suddenly  revealed hitherto hidden wodges of cash down the back of the sofa. 

Precious little. I suspect a Johnson win was factored into the markets some time ago. 

I'd love for our future to be brighter so let's start by defining the metrics: what exactly is 'brexit' supposed to do? You tell me that then we can look at the how, see how we can work from there to all get behind it and make it 'work'.

Tell who what and how does brexit free up money for a feel-good spending spree?

I think those pushing brexit know full well how to profiteer in a 'bust'. It appears you believe you'll be there with them rather than a victim. Bravo, good for you!

I don't like losing: rights, opportunities, freedom, I don't like seeing others being stripped of theirs either.

Change. We're crying out for change quitters and remainers alike, not running scared from it as a concept. We desperately need political and electoral reform, minority and evolving views need to be heard, their holders represented without them hijacking government. We need economic reform to prioritise conserving and improving our environment locally and globally, not concentrating wealth and power in the hands of a tiny few. We need to build and deepen our alliances rather than tearing them up so as to tackle the global issues no nation or bloc can face alone but that we cannot any longer ignore. We need to cooperate for security, to manage and benefit from the cultural changes and waves of human movements climate change will keep bringing, to defuse the tensions which cause conflict and to stand united to face down those who seek it or shirk responsibilities. We need to strengthen our political institutions, domestic and international rather than retreat from them to hide behind strongmen.  We need to invest in the future, not regress to an unsustainable isolated fantasy vision of the past. We need to repair our social security safety net so those caught in the inevitable turbulence of a changing world can live in safety and dignity while they make their new place in it, so those who choose not to raise families can retire and age in the knowledge their care will not be delivered by lottery and those who do raise families can offer their children a good start in the world on an equal footing with their peers irrespective of their own personal circumstances.

There are a *ton* of things we need to change! Leaving the EU is an essential or forward step on the road to precisely none of them.

jk

There would be boundless UKC optimism if it was Corbyn, promising rainbows shining out of his posterior, free university education for all, something different (but who knows what) on refugees and immigration, and unlimited funds for the NHS and social welfare.  Plus free chocolate bars from vending machines and two-hour lunch breaks no doubt.  Everyone would be cheering....all the way into deep deficit and financial decline.

Political speeches are always weird.  The first I heard of Boris' one was how terrible it apparently was, so had to watch.  The only real annoyance with it was the jeering from outside on the road.  Other's disagree; Twitter seems chock full of faces, from Caroline Lucas to Alexandra Philips, declaring the UK has fallen under the spell of a fascist and racist and we're doomed. 

Interesting fact from AC Grayling "The FTSE has lost more value in 12 months than the UK has paid into the EU during the 45 years since we joined"

‘fact’?

Most of us would recognise it for what comes out of bovine posteriors, unlike those who seem to be accepting Boris' current bluster and not seeing it for what it really is.

Almost every word you say in this post embarrassingly ridiculous demonstrable nonsense:

Most business people and most hard workers have a lot of will to make their business/service/industry succeed. The fortunes of the economy have nearly sweet f a to do with that will of theirs. You then add an absurd rider: the implication that if you set up an obstacle or further obstacles people are more, not less, likely to succeed. 

Your first sentence above is absurd in so many ways. You talk as if the people who've commented on 'this forum' have somehow clubbed together and are colluding against you.

'... no will to make Brexit succeed.' That's a bit like saying that some quack doctor has advised you that you'll climb better if he breaks your legs and re-sets them in some way, according to a pet theory of his. And that, in this absurd, fictional world I'm constructing, a vote is taken in which about 34% of those doctors who are asked and can be  bothered to reply, say he's right and so on 31st October your legs will be broken whether you like it or not. You protest, but are told 'you have no will to make your maimed legs succeed in making you a better climber.'

We were actually doing quite well before all this nonsense flared up. You conveniently forget that.

Don't exaggerate the 'austerity'. That was nothing compared with what is happening now as a result of the threat of Brexit and nothing compared with what's likely to happen after Oct 31.

As others have said, your comment 'now it's time to spend' defies belief. 

'I just don't get it.' No, you don't. Actually, you sound more insane than merely muddled.

A more or less meaningless sentence.

It's the little Englander, Brexit world that is very small. This 'change' was not only not inevitable, but totally unnecessary. The EU was a huge success story, particularly when it came to the improving quality and value of our food, and the ease of trade and commerce of all kinds.

I really wonder what experience you have of business, or any work of any kind.

I think ironically it was Rachel Johnson that said it. 

that quack leg-breaking analogy is one of the best I've seen.  You forgot to mention the quacks are promising that he will be taking back control over his limbs by having them broken ...

Yes, forgot that. I'm sure the analogy could be enlarged in many ways. E.g. the quack doctor ending up in charge of the BMA.

"There would be boundless UKC optimism"  Falsch

it would at least be bounded by my non belief in Corbyn and I do not think I' m alone.

How can one be anything but negative about a disastrous intent to throw away our rights and get back nothing in return but loss of face and standing in Europe risking our economy and EU born spouses?

How can one not be negative about reversing what took us a decade to achieve with a 66% majority in favour on a marginal vote after being told a pack of lies by a bunch of selfservative crooks?

And how is it democratic for 160, 000 selfservative voters to set our course for collision?

Show me the positive - if you can you are a loon

When have political speeches been anything other than bluster?  I don't see Boris as plumbing new depths here. 

"True fact" as The Donalut might say.

Well, a cheery bunch we are then.  I get the feeling the UKC massive, surprisingly for people who consider themselves unbound from materialism and in touch with the world, fail to see that things are actually surprisingly good in the world.  Can't see the wood for the trees perhaps; if it weren't for the modern wonders of satellite technology we'd be blissfully unaware of the worst ever wildfires in Siberia and would be viewing our scorcher summer as good news rather than bad.  Perhaps this applies politically and socially too; everything appears worse than ever only because of access to (distorted) information?

Happy to hear.  Is there anyone we'd be happy with?  Or is the default mode going to be pegged on "misery" unless they satisfy our every expectation and we have drummed in to us their greatness by whatever media we subscribe to?

Depends whether we're actually throwing away rights.  Also depends on whether you see greater localism as a bad thing or not, and perhaps a bigger priority than some subjective crystal ball gazing about empty shelves and power shortages.  Understandable concerns about EU born spouses - but I'm very very doubtful there will be any sort of impact on their rights to reside.  

A lot of people are still alive who voted for entry to the EU.  Many of those same people now voted out, because the EU arrangement of today is a different fish from what it was then.  People are allowed to change their minds.

Same for Labour.  Leader resigns, a new one appointed by the membership.  Not that I've put much thought to it, but is there a better way?  If there is, good.  Either way, it's not the Conservatives to blame.  Whether we like it or not, parliament essentially committed itself to Brexit.

Today we have more rights than we have ever had before.  Whether in the EU or out, few will likely be removed.  Social policy is more progressive than ever.  Wealth, health and prosperity world-wide is unprecedented.  There's far too many people on the planet, which is probably responsible for the Lion's share of all other existential problems....but I don't blame Tories or Brexiteers for that.

Rory Stewart's?  Actually, even Theresa May's. Lots, in fact.  Obviously there's a certain amount of best case over-promising in many of them but bluster is where there is wild over-promising without a shred of plausibility.

This irresponsible arm-waving about the multiple simple ways in which the Irish border issue can be solved is bluster if ever I've heard it.  Johnson doesn't have a clue how to do it.  He knows it.  We know it.  He's bluffing.

Just goes to show how entirely subjective these judgements are.  I liked Rory but didn't find anything he said much more impressive or meaningful.  Nothing Theresa May said struck me as having any gravitas - but then I had instant scepticism to anything she said given her views on drug-law reform while home.sec.  Quite likely our views on whether someone gives a good speech or not are decided long before they actually start speaking.

What on Earth is wrong with you? Supportive of incompetent idiots leading unwitting innocents in the mountains, supportive of incompetent mopheads leading unwilling countries into disaster with unfulfillable promises...are you on a permanent acid trip or something?

"Show me the positive - if you can you are a loon

Today we have more rights than we have ever had before.  Whether in the EU or out, few will likely be removed.  Social policy is more progressive than ever.  Wealth, health and prosperity world-wide is unprecedented.  There's far too many people on the planet, which is probably responsible for the Lion's share of all other existential problems....but I don't blame Tories or Brexiteers for that."

Your answer completely swerves the question (no surprise). The most positive thing you have got is we are unlikely to lose too many of our existing rights.

Well break out the bunting, we're going to have a party. 

That should do it... 

It was worse with Labour. The premiership was simply handed to Brown by Blair. No voting actually took place. 

Nothing wrong with me. 

I just don’t see potential disaster looming at me every time I step outside my front door. 

Indeed. Most business owners and people have the will to succeed. They do this within a framework of rules and regulations. Change the rules and regulations and they change the way they behave. It’s been the same for centuries. Local governments do it all the time, the EU do it all the time. 

From day one there has been doom and gloom about leaving the EU. Well before any new trade tariffs have been arranged or any agreements made on movement of labour and residency rules. 

Everything has been based on worse case scenarios and continues to be. All negativity.

It will. Don’t underestimate the power of a united country with a common approach. The EU are laughing at us bickering and while we are bickering we have no way of showing a strong hand to the EU. 

Many small business owners rely on trade generated by large businesses to survive. If the large businesses decide to relocate elsewhere, many small businesses won't survive.

That is grossly simplfied, but I feel reasoanbly confident in saying it as a small business owner who expects a disproportionate impact to turnover as the clients of my clients relocate themselves (and thus their need for us) to Europe.

The intermediaries may have changed or be about to change but Merkel, Macron, Conte, Varadkar, etc. are all still there and it is the leaders of the nation states that really decide for the EU, despite what the Mail and Express may have told you. 

If every single person in Britain was 100% behind Brexit it would make not a jot of difference. We are in a position of weakness when negotiating with the EU. A situation that was blindingly obvious before the referendum. 

Ever more laws and regulations doesn't necessarily mean more rights. 

Stepping away from a supra-nation body of oversight, and with it regulations and laws, might just be a positive.   The argument that external control mechanisms are necessary to ensure freedom is really not far removed from the claim that it is religious observation and morality that protects us from depravity and sin.

I don't actually see much, if anything, anything positive in Brexit.  I'm a Remainer.  But Remainers are doggedly failing to engage with Brexiteers, to look past their own noses, and to consider that there may be aspects of Brexit that they are blind to.

Oh so that's alright then

Bullsh*t is ok if it's from the team you like

What does your mate Dave think?

What is the team I like?

Or how about we try: something isn't automatically bullshit because its from the team you don't like.

Well I keep asking them for a positive from brexit, but I never get anything we couldn't do from inside the EU

my problem with that is that as you see the enemy advancing and surrounding you and using tactics outside convention and lying you don't have time to see the positive in them or you will surely suffer the harm they mean to you

Warleggan and his cronies are a good correlative to this situation

And I can't see anything positive about embracing US culture instead of our closer neighbours

youtube.com/watch?v=lHlyLSagaAg&

Plus why reduce regional trade to do more trade with the home of climate change denial, will goods croosing the Atlantic reduce emissions?

I spit on Brexit. Unless the EU turns into something like the tyranny Leavers say it is, I will always regard it as the best effort humans have yet made towards peace and international cooperation.

What can I possibly have in common with Brexit? It is an extreme right wing project designed to maximise profit and control for objectivist ideologues. 

Are you on drugs? The UK probably can't be held together anymore because of brexit, there is nothing united about us.

Jk

Jolly good. More nice positivity from the UKC masses. 

This belief that positivity can save us is superstition in action. What we need is accurate thinking, not positivity or negativity - both are problematic. 

Yeah.  What we need is to just think positive - like your close mate, Brave (dangerous) Dave

Delivering brexit with a deal will cost us Northern Ireland.

Crashing out will probably cost us NI and Scotland.

What happens at the borders and when people like you finally realise you were mugged... that could cost us our lives.

Empty optimism doesn't change that.

Jk

If it does go as wrong as the worst case scenarios, I have no doubt that some of the most enthusiastic pro-Brexit people will be some of the first to turn to violence.

I’m inching closer to doing the prep work so I can throw some stout 7’ high fencing up in few hours, and am eyeing up South African electric fence energisers.  

If word gets out that I’ve been stockpiling toilet role and lager I’m otherwise doomed.

I award you Hero of the United Kingdom First Class

In terms of reducing product-miles how could Brexit be  better, unless someone has invented a zero-carbon wormhole, or perhaps a wagon train of magical Unicorns manned by Leprechauns perhaps

I am Pro Britain and strongly pro United Kingdom.  I am anti English Nationalism, Anti-Cancerous Tory-Farage rivalry which has now reached an invasive state

moreover,

Not hard to see how the left behind fail to see the Benefits of EU Membership when those benefits are maladminstered/wasted/hidden by the English Government

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-49131685

Tim Farron was desperately trying to get the same English National government to apply for EU aid for Cumbria after Storm Desmond as the same government had let the application almost lapse through effluxion of time.

Lots of circumstantial evidence amounts to something different.

Gimme Bazooka, Gimme Ammo Buddy

Don't know if it is relevant but I like it

youtube.com/watch?v=Vqbk9cDX0l0&