6 nations

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Gone for good 14 Mar 2021

I looked for a thread after yesterday's game and was surprised to see no-one had started one so.

The England France match was the best game of international rugby I've seen for a long time. Both sides fully committed, strong up front,  dashing rugby played by the backs. Some lovely tries and a very low penalty count by both sides all added to an absorbing and exciting spectacle which I thought England just did enough to deserve the win with the subs bench making a more telling contribution than the French.

Italy Wales was predictably one sided and now Wales are one game away from an unlikely grand slam. I hope they beat France in the final game but think the French will be a step to far especially as the game is being played in Paris. Alun Wynn Jones is a remarkable rugby player and deserves a final Lions tour,  even if it is only for the midweek games.

 Red Rover 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

I'm surprised at the lack of 6 nations discussion on here as well. The England game was fantastic. If we can beat Ireland then we've done OK and salvaged something after a bad start to the tournament. I wonder if it should be the 5 nations though? Italy aren't competative in any of their matches now. Just beating Italy isn't really a good result, the only real question is whether you get bonus points against them and not doing so feels like losing against any other team.

 veteye 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Good grief! Yes! What a brilliant game, especially the thrilling second half.

I was trying to work, and I just had to abandon that and was glued to the screen. 

I think that the Ireland game will be either very close, or we'll lose our optimism too early on, and succumb.

 Dr.S at work 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

Yes real shame Italy have stalled or even gone backward - what’s to be done to support the European second tier and help them progress?

 Wft 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Yes, a brilliant game. A young French team in the ascendency and an England side with something to prove. It was the best game I've seen from Youngs, Farrell and Ford in a long, long while. I would still like to see some of the Premiership talent coming through for 2023 (Smith, Simmonds, Randall etc). 

I was particularly impressed with Youngs this match, kept up the pace and was at least a match for Dupont. I've been down on him for a while, calling for Danny Care etc, but credit where credit's due. 

C'mon Scotland today! My favourite side in the 6-nations. What a day, Chiefs won as well. Very happy!

Post edited at 09:12
 Red Rover 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Maybe a second-tier six nations would work? It would give Georgia a chance to get some fame and experience as well.

 Shani 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

> I looked for a thread after yesterday's game and was surprised to see no-one had started one so.

I was thinking about that myself. Where's Horse these days? He normally has a view on the rugby threads.

I thought EngFra was a great game. WalFra should be a cracker. Who to shout for......🤔

 Red Rover 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

I feel gutted for Scotland!

 PaulTclimbing 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

The England game was entertaining and back and forth, and I enjoyed their victory, but it was error strewn from England with a number of uncharacteristic turnovers. They have been forced to change their game from the continuous offside, kill time time and ball at the breakdown, plus F’s dangerous play. Stamped out by the Wales game and the referee demanding continuous free play and ball in play time. England began to adapt to the rules second half. 

 DaveHK 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

> I feel gutted for Scotland!


 Dr.S at work 14 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

youtube.com/watch?v=AhtWK0JSr3U&
 

too good not to link! It was another good game - will be fascinating to see how Wales manage France and England Ireland next weekend

 ianstevens 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Shani:

As if that’s a question. A Welsh grand slam based on pure shithousery would be perfect.

(I say this as an ex-resident of Wales who had little to no care about egg chasing prior to moving).

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 Shani 14 Mar 2021
In reply to ianstevens:

> As if that’s a question. A Welsh grand slam based on pure shithousery would be perfect.

> (I say this as an ex-resident of Wales who had little to no care about egg chasing prior to moving).

As an Englishman and ex-Welsh resident I'm going to be shouting for Wales!

 Cornish boy 14 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

> I looked for a thread after yesterday's game and was surprised to see no-one had started one so.

> The England France match was the best game of international rugby I've seen for a long time. Both sides fully committed, strong up front,  dashing rugby played by the backs. Some lovely tries and a very low penalty count by both sides all added to an absorbing and exciting spectacle which I thought England just did enough to deserve the win with the subs bench making a more telling contribution than the French.

> Italy Wales was predictably one sided and now Wales are one game away from an unlikely grand slam. I hope they beat France in the final game but think the French will be a step to far especially as the game is being played in Paris. Alun Wynn Jones is a remarkable rugby player and deserves a final Lions tour,  even if it is only for the midweek games.

Totally agree with your comments. Nice to see England restore some pride after several below par performances. It was a terrific match. France looked very dangerous at times though and will surely keep improving, making them strong contenders for the RWC on their home soil in 2023. 

The big question is: Can England back this win up against Ireland in Dublin next week? We couldn’t manage this in the last RWC after that incredible win over the All Blacks. 

As for Alun Wyn Jones, it’s remarkable how he can still perform at such a high level at his age with all those caps under his belt. He is a great leader too. I also hope that Wales win the Grand Slam (my wife is Welsh!) but, like you, think that France will be too strong. Ought to be a cracking game. 

I did feel for the Scots today. They did really well to claw their way back to 24-24, only to give away that kickable penalty which Sexton coolly slotted. The game had a bit of everything in it but my favourite moment was Romain Poite’s head in the bottom of that ruck! 😂

If the Lions were playing tomorrow I reckon Curry, Itoje and Watson would be the 3 English players who warrant a place in the starting XV. Perhaps we ought to start a new thread nearer the time?! 

Cheers. 

 PaulTclimbing 14 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

But worse than that if your currently Italian!

 Jimp97 15 Mar 2021
In reply to Cornish boy:

> If the Lions were playing tomorrow I reckon Curry, Itoje and Watson would be the 3 English players who warrant a place in the starting XV. Perhaps we ought to start a new thread nearer the time?! 

What about Simmonds?

Gone for good 15 Mar 2021
In reply to Cornish boy:

> Totally agree with your comments. Nice to see England restore some pride after several below par performances. It was a terrific match. France looked very dangerous at times though and will surely keep improving, making them strong contenders for the RWC on their home soil in 2023. 

> The big question is: Can England back this win up against Ireland in Dublin next week? We couldn’t manage this in the last RWC after that incredible win over the All Blacks. 

> As for Alun Wyn Jones, it’s remarkable how he can still perform at such a high level at his age with all those caps under his belt. He is a great leader too. I also hope that Wales win the Grand Slam (my wife is Welsh!) but, like you, think that France will be too strong. Ought to be a cracking game. 

> I did feel for the Scots today. They did really well to claw their way back to 24-24, only to give away that kickable penalty which Sexton coolly slotted. The game had a bit of everything in it but my favourite moment was Romain Poite’s head in the bottom of that ruck! 😂

> If the Lions were playing tomorrow I reckon Curry, Itoje and Watson would be the 3 English players who warrant a place in the starting XV. Perhaps we ought to start a new thread nearer the time?! 

> Cheers. 

Johnny May is in fine form as well. Henry Slade as a long shot for centre.

 GrahamD 15 Mar 2021
In reply to Jimp97:

> What about Simmonds?

Indeed.  I can only assume he's run over Eddie Jones' cat or something.

 Jimp97 16 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Cowan-Dickie is the best hooker in the northern hemisphere for me at the minute, you could argue his set piece is weaker than Owens and George but what he offers around the park trumps that for me... I reckon the AB's would happily take Cowan-Dickie and Simmonds, where as Eddie in the past has preferred less flashy players who are strong in the set piece.  

I'd personally love to see a back row of  Simmonds 6 curry 7 vunipola 8, I reckon it would work well with two good jumpers in the second row. 

 the sheep 16 Mar 2021
In reply to Jimp97:

I would happily swap Billy for Dombrandt

 Jimp97 18 Mar 2021
In reply to the sheep:

I rate billy personally... Would love to see a back row of faletau 6, curry 7, vunipola 8 for the lions this summer.

 earlsdonwhu 18 Mar 2021

I think this championship has been quite close with no single team being fantastic and dominant. Therefore, I think France beating Wales and denying them the slam would better represent the competition we've seen in the last few months. 

 Cornish boy 19 Mar 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Grand Slams are hard to come by so fair play to Wales if they pull it off, even if they have ridden their luck a bit during the tournament. Apparently the odds of them winning the Grand Slam were 40-1 prior to their first game! 

However, I think that France will be too strong and still smarting from their defeat by England last weekend. Ought to be a cracking game though, as will the game in Dublin hopefully. 

I predict wins for Scotland, England and France tomorrow but could easily be wrong on two counts! 

 Martin Hore 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Red Rover:

> Maybe a second-tier six nations would work? It would give Georgia a chance to get some fame and experience as well.

I don't know a lot about this but it's always seemed anomalous to me that there's no relegation from and promotion to the 6 nations. I appreciate, there would need to be a second tier league to promote from. I'm not sure why there isn't. But it would be a great spur to the other nations that play the game, and a motivator to Italy to try to retain their place. 

Can someone more knowledgeable enlighten me? Is it for fear that Scotland could become a relegated team which would mean no Triple Crown and no Calcutta Cup?

Martin

Gone for good 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Cornish boy:

> I predict wins for Scotland, England and France tomorrow but could easily be wrong on two counts! 

Its looking like Ireland will comfortably beat England at the moment. England looking as bad as they were against Scotland and Wales.

 earlsdonwhu 20 Mar 2021

At half time, England look unable to deal with the Irish forwards. If it remains like this,, England will have really stalled in this campaign while Wales, Scotland and France seem to have moved on with new talent emerging and finding effective styles.

Gone for good 20 Mar 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

Exactly. So far I would say Billy and Maku, Daly, Ford and Youngs, not good enough.

 earlsdonwhu 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

It's an Irish stranglehold. We have no idea how good Lawrence, Earl etc are

 Ian W 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

> Exactly. So far I would say Billy and Maku, Daly, Ford and Youngs, not good enough.


England have gone backwards - only one good performance all tournament.

 Dr.S at work 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Ian W:

Great play from Ireland - England made loads of vexing errors in positions when they could come back in.

well deployed choke tackles by Ireland.

 Tringa 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Well done Ireland. A well deserved win.

Dave

 wbo2 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

I'd be interested in exactly what England think their tactical plan is, and what they're being coached for.  As they look awful

 coinneach 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Martin Hore:

No, after today it's a fear that England would be a relegated team . . . . . . 

 earlsdonwhu 20 Mar 2021

In the first 15 minutes, Wales and France have shown more creativity than England managed in 80.

 DaveHK 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Wow. What a game!

 balmybaldwin 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Absolutely stonking game

 earlsdonwhu 20 Mar 2021

Hard to make sense of that!  The cliché that you can never write the French off was epitomised tonight.

Referee was clearly the best performing English rugby professional today.

 Wft 20 Mar 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

What a game. I’m a wreck and I am neutral!

 balmybaldwin 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Wft:

Neutral here too and certainly felt the heart going at the end there

Very well refereed.

Thought the english performance earlier was awful

 earlsdonwhu 20 Mar 2021
In reply to balmybaldwin:

England looked one dimensional in comparison. We only played well for 40 minutes.... against the French. Irish, Welsh and Scottish players must have taken quite a few more Lions places than might have been envisaged pre- competition.

 Welsh Kate 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Wft:

Blimey, what a day of rugby! Fried from that last match - and deflated after being within seconds of such an unlikely Grand Slam.

But what a great game, so even and exciting. Excellent work from the officials, esp. the partnership between the ref and the TMO. Whatever happens next week (and COME ON, Scotland!) it's been a great tournament for a Welsh team improving with every game.

 Cornish boy 20 Mar 2021
In reply to Welsh Kate:

Yep, incredible game of rugby in Paris! It had it all didn’t it?

As an Englishman, I really felt for Wales. They must be gutted to have lost with the last play of the game. They have had a great tournament though, unlike us!

Fair play to France though. To recover from having that try being chalked off after the red card for foul play, and go on to score 2 tries and win the game, was very impressive.

As for England, another poor performance but you have to give Ireland massive credit. They were outstanding. 

Perhaps it’s time for Eddie to go? 

 J101 21 Mar 2021
In reply to earlsdonwhu:

As an England fan that was another painful watch yesterday, Ireland were excellent and fully deserved the win, better in every area.

Taidgh Beirne really should be near top of the list of 6s for the lions, been the standout player for Ireland this tournament and only Navidi has come close in that position, both should be going on tour.

Wales just imploded, the Liam Williams yellow card was so daft and then the final penalty they gave away for sealing you could see coming. France seemed to come alive after their red card and fantastic last 10 minutes to win the game.

Not sure how the ref decided that maul wasn't going to make it the 3 extra metres to the line if it wasn't illegally brought down but otherwise he had an excellent game, best reffing of the tournament and it made the game flow as a result.

Gualthier press conference comments about the Welsh player getting Willemse sent off for no contact or very little contact are a disgrace and he should be sanctioned for them. Video is clear and intent or not that's a red card all day long. 

 fred99 21 Mar 2021
In reply to wbo2:

> I'd be interested in exactly what England think their tactical plan is, and what they're being coached for.  As they look awful

You think they DID have a plan ?

 RBonney 21 Mar 2021
In reply to Cornish boy:

> Perhaps it’s time for Eddie to go? 

I think people go to that option far too quickly these days. Yes they were awful yesterday and the tournament as a whole wasn't much better. But under Eddie they equaled the longest winning streak, had an unbeaten season, got to the final of the world cup (what a bad day to have another awful showing) and they won the six nations last year.

England always seem to yoyo. They'll be back in form soon enough. 

 PaulTclimbing 24 Mar 2021
In reply to Cornish boy:

Unfortunately, I’m losing interest in the ‘entertainment’ that is test rugby. As soon as the offscreen officials. High stakes matches are now referreed off the pitch via ‘ear worm’.  We saw this at its worst in Japan where England and Wales were both disadvantaged against S Africa for the sake of an ‘essential!?!? good narrative  that facilitated SA on the front foot. Here Barnes had his input continuously ( out of earshot) eg he tried and failed, fortunately,  to talk down the eye incident as slide hand/yellow just a penalty. There was a consistent effort to even up the yellows etc against Wales and in favour of the French and clear penalty try for Wales with potentially two other tries one of which was almost impossible not to have been grounded but for a fluke tv angle etc etc. The refereeing of Wales. ‘Use it’ at any breakdown/set piece etc imparted psychological pressure. A command Not given To France. If this was designed for running rugby, it resulted in a positive for France and to their benefit. Williams tackle. Get to feet. Hall in open play. DuPont ( if look close) knock on that in the action of tackle actually was a second knock on by Wales: was correct play. The welsh game has been near enough pristine. Since last World Cup. Farrells thuggery, headshots to key welsh players eg George North ( last 3 years) and many others have become the consistent standards to soften up Wales. Obviously current climate world rugby cannot accept this and stamped it out of England in their Wales game. England ( frequently)  offside and killing the game was not permitted then and the refereeing to speed the game played in Wales favour. So why the criticism now?  The narrative has become more important than the game. The referree here was being over ridden from TMO

with advisories that the viewing public cannot here. Imagine the scene for the next World Cup. Growing hype for France going into their own World Cup as 6 nations champs. Or mid table. They need to generate excitement towards the desired outcome. France in s world cup final at home without a french crowd turnoff. A distinct possibility. So the narrative. IRF needs France success imminently. It really is a ‘game’ with

an oval shaped ball. Soz. This was meant for reply to Welsh Kate and the other guy thinking the refereeing was ‘good’. The more one dwells on it the more scandalous it was.sorry about this irrelevant reply to your response.  

Post edited at 23:27
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 Dr.S at work 24 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Try squidge rugby on you tube for a balanced analysis

 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Yes just watched that and even the commentator failed in exclaimed bewilderment to understand how you can lose such a game. He resorts to intensity. ( well that was fairly equal) probably Wales edged that. He can only answer it by talk of a beautiful game, dramatic incident, everything a game could possibly have. Singularly he failed to identifying refereeing and its context. Even BBC news identified all who played their part including the referee. But it’s time. That in the hidden box that the curtains are pulled back and the light let in to show up the insider issues of the TMO. Fundamentally Wales did make their last five mins 

plays harder. This was a failure of Pivac. Changing  4 of the worlds best players and incidentally game changers/critical decision makers for less experience and this did have an effect, but this fails to understand the IRB ref context that facilitated the loss. The point I am labouring is that Key/critical matches are reffed off screen. Wales affected by TMO input. England SA Japan, England/ish must feel so aggrieved. Reffing of scrum was awful and ref allowed pushing from sA( pile through), incorrect penalising of England in3 critical areas led to tries, the ‘back’ England was timed and timed to facilitate the SA scrum half and back row gave maximum impact. All this hamstringed England and put them on the back foot. Making SA look rampant. It was blatant one sided reffing facilitated through TMO ear worm talk and a confused ref. Same as last week. Ref undermined. Bad decisions. TMO offsceeen trying to have influence adversely against Wales. Well of course it was that Svengali of a ref Wayne Barnes. Enigmatically as about as good as a farmer with a whole harvest of crop. So my point is watch out next World Cup. When it’s a big big big game, they’ll silence the TMO intervention call outs throughout so that the audience can’t hear the discussion/ear worm talk. In the interests of openness, let’s hear it all. Other matches will not see this change when intervening. Only where a big narrative is at stake that favours

an iRB development of the game. Hence the loss of some refs who referree too accurately of in control. Why would the game want accuracy in refereeing  and objective quality in a referee when it can manipulate a mu.   Pet. 

Post edited at 21:15
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 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Oh direct to the neck. Commentated. Where’s that initial pint of contact. It’s instinct it’s not foul play. ‘Accidental ‘from Scots and french pundits. WB decision Red. Making the game ‘full’ of foul play and disreputable.  Wayne Barnes retained  ... er ... banked another cracker decision... clarified  clarified as  to ‘direct to the neck’.  When it was a poss penalty, poss yellow. Realises mistake and tries to even it up. Superstar heading for a World Cup funding bonanza as the ultimate ref. Last 4 mins and not 1 extra penalty against France when french offside at heats five times in breakdowns. WT ...

Post edited at 22:00
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 DaveHK 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Fantastic!

Clauso 26 Mar 2021
In reply to DaveHK:

Fair play the Jocks... And the Taffs.

... Let's not mention England.

 balmybaldwin 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Another bloody good game.

 Welsh Kate 26 Mar 2021
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Whoo hoo!

Great game, perfect result (at least for me :-D )

 Dr.S at work 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Welsh Kate:

Great game, crazy french thinking at the end, super championship - role on the Lions!

 Dr.S at work 26 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Are you on crack?

Clauso 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

> Are you on crack?

Possibly speaking in tongues?... While on crack.

 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Boring.... 

6
 balmybaldwin 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Welsh Kate:

I think perfect result all round.

Wales didn't deserve a grand slam, but France didn't deserve to win

Scotland had a great championship but didn't quite bring it home against Ireland or Wales but probably should have been 3rd

Ireland and England were below par. England by a long way.

Didn't really notice italy without Parisse

 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Clauso:

Certainly not are you ! 

 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Which issue/part/reason/argument could you put forward for ‘Wales didn’t deserve a grand slam’ . They were professionally, technicall and strategically excellent. You can omit the farce of the prior tournament and Pivac inauguration games.  Even though  they were very competitive and games could have gone their way. 

Post edited at 22:43
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 balmybaldwin 26 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Well they didn't beat France for a start.

They seemed to start slowly and improve as the tournament went on.

1
 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to balmybaldwin:

Don’t believe the hype of France and Scotland. Wales were outstanding in all quarters. They will supply, along with Ireland the majority of the Lions.  Ireland were the second best team in the tournament other than some of their ill discipline.

9
Clauso 26 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

> Certainly not are you ! 

Certainly not!.... I never speak in tongues.

 PaulTclimbing 26 Mar 2021
In reply to Clauso:

Actually, your not as boring as I thought, you’ve managed to add a few more words, but little dialogue or debate; I guess that’s just another of your weaknesses.

1
 PaulTclimbing 27 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

Ok, Tarren ap Jackson and Doctored S, seeing as you wanted to plumb the depths. I’m thinking its  great to be on a natural high and have a listen to this tongue. 
Championes, championes, ole ole ole! Again! Hope you understand and can identify with that. 

Post edited at 00:10
 PaulTclimbing 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

6 dislikes and no comments. That’s a little unfair. 
All I said ( directly for sure) is that France were offside for the last moments of the game ( not having a go at them) but the poor ole ref. He didn’t give one. What a shocker. And great for good ole Scotland to get up for their country, lay it on the line, and thence over it, in front of WB and let their actions do the talking.  They were brilliant today.

and the french hype machine got them 1 point more. Should have all been on 15 points Ireland, Scotland and France, in the final table or France less. 
 

3
Clauso 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

I love you.

I love that you recognise my weakness but accept me regardless.

I've always been weak for you. I'll move in next week... Deal? 

 PaulTclimbing 27 Mar 2021
In reply to balmybaldwin:

I’m going to correct you here. This needs flagging up. For the last five years, Wales’s, whilst giving away the odd of penalty( silliness, stupidity professional foul)  have never made a focussed violence action and tried to be within the law/rules not up for anything other than FairPlay.  Players like a George North ( honest, humble guy) and great talent have been targeted with violence as a way to Denude their abilities and thereby the welsh team effort. There are others. GN was nearly nullified ( long term) and suffered as a wing thereafter. GN has managed to change his game centre and they can’t go fir him. This tournament has focussed on  dangerous play. And stamped it out. Aka football with red and yellow cards. A sorry state in some senses as it sheds light in the poorer side of the game ie targeted violence , but that’s good as they will have to deal with it. Thugs have gone and are going. Farrel for instance. Great set kicker, ‘ok’ ten/centre overinflated self belief/insufficient captain, this season/don’t be fooled by itv hype) and plump as a puddin ( lack of game time/ per the rest of England) has the last two seasons ‘let himself down’ with all the cheap shots. My beef is that when you get civilised teams like Wales playing a disciplined game that’s now recognised ( by officials/sport) and acted upon to outlaw its excesses ( causing Scotland, Ireland etc and ultimately both teams knew that penalties are the consequence, even before the game starts, of pressure are planned before the game starts. !??!! Since Japan the increase in headshots  previously known success  but seems to. Upset the wider community ( here, but I value/like the argument/discussion  mindset of UKC as a ‘go to’  mind clarifier of accuracy, bring it on oh silent ones ) ; and they come up against a regime ( IRB) intent on game world growth/support  with appointed officials seemingly refereeing /mis refereeing tournaments /critical games for a ‘better’ story. It’s just plain wrong. Though a leveller, positive, if denies the ascendant team/ hegemonic team. Wales has virtually 100 percent identification with its countries sporting success/national success because its got f all else to be thankful for ( at times). It’s guaranteed as a positive for rugby. 

to be, but in France/rest of the world it’s not necessarily a pop priority, eg France , now were out of Europe could go of it’s own with other Euro countries in an independent tournament. IRB won’t want that and can guarantee with a big country success whereas lowly countries of 3m and guaranteed markets are not a narrative priority. Refereeing is an issue. 
 

Other corrections, England were given a shock... their offside tactics and dirty foul play, killing the game or ‘opposition personnel in games’  were at last penalised ( remember ref enters the game knowing each players and team strengths and weaknesses  poss to a very high degree   Their inflicting if refereeing is now like the extra ‘ man on yhe wing’ 

B ah

Post edited at 02:26
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 FactorXXX 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Any chance that you could use paragraphs?

 SFM 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

You forgot to mention Italy, or are they not a threat to Saint Wales?

 Dr.S at work 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Ok - so my real concern is your attack on the refs - the source I suggested which you have watched explicitly praises the refereeing in the France vs Wales game. (It’s crazily info dense and easy to miss bits).

As you say the refs have acted in this  tournament to cut out high hits - and I think the interaction of officials at this times has been great and transparent. Also seen in the Gallagher and Pro12.

I do not see the Refs manipulating the game, I see them enforcing the Laws. The suggestion that the refs are crooked is shameful.

they of course make errors - but that  is in no way the same thing.

1
 PaulTclimbing 27 Mar 2021
In reply to Clauso:

Love is a many splendid thing

i suppose ! 
 

Hopefully you will have watched, time and again, England lose the WC Japan final and wondered why and how?  A game in which they did nothing wrong , much right ie the scrum critically and were levelled up

by poor refereeing. TMO refereeing. 

Post edited at 07:25
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 Dr.S at work 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Did nothing wrong?

They panicked and made tons of unforced errors, Dan Cole got clobbered for too long and Eddie did not send Marler on early enough.

Psychologically they were on a down after the awesome performance the week before, SA were in the opposite position.

 J101 27 Mar 2021
In reply to PaulTclimbing:

Rugby not your strong point I take it, beyond the one eyed Wales love?

Wales were good and fully deserved their tournament win but they weren't that much ahead of everyone else, that's what made it such a good 6N this year. 

Ireland were good but often exhibit the cutting edge of a satsuma. Henshaw aside the backs didn't offer enough other than in the England game. Tadgh Beirne was phenomenal at 6 and a joy to watch, Henshaw was immense in defence and trucking it up in midfield, Henderson made a big difference returning from injury which was needed as Ryan was a little off his usual standards and Will Connors looks a great prospect at 7.

England were poor, France game aside, too many players out of fitness and form. The only real standout was Watson back fit again, class finisher and defensively solid. Curry had a quiet tournament by his usual high standards and Slade is wasted with Farrell clogging up the midfield inside him. Lots of changes needed, but will Eddie drop his favourites? I doubt it sadly.

Scotland much improved but not consistent enough still, defensively superb against France yesterday and you always feel they will score tries but poor against Ireland who seem to have their number the last few years, and the red card against Wales cost them badly.  Lineout is still a real problem area and without sorting that out they'll always struggle.

Hamish Watson always has a good game but Scotland tend to do well when Jamie Ritchie also hits those heights, M Fagerson had a good tournament and has developed well. Need another option at scrum half to challenge Price for the starting position.

 DaveHK 27 Mar 2021
In reply to SFM:

> You forgot to mention Italy, or are they not a threat to Saint Wales?

Best not to mention Italy at all really. Time for them to bow out of the 6 nations I think.

 J101 27 Mar 2021
In reply to J101:

For Wales having Navidi back made a huge difference, he lets Tipuric do the link play he's so good at and offers an extra carrying threat. Faletau had a fantastic tournament, so pleased to see him fit and staying that way this time. Adam Beard stepped up his game, Wyn Jones was the best loose head of the tournament but they badly need to find another hooker for when Owens retires, nobody claiming it at the moment.

Hardy had a good tournament until his injury, Gareth Davies is the Finn Russell of scrum halves, you get magic or crazy decisions.

Biggar was excellent, controls the game beautifully when needed and defensively solid.

North looks good at 13, badly need a replacement for JD2 though, fantastic player but he's always had knee issues and at 32 hasn't got long left at this level.

Back 3 is pretty damn good, Rees-Zamit the standout star of the 6N!

 PaulTclimbing 27 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

Much of that I’d agree. However the critical and wrong decisions that went against them in adverse territorial positions directly  favoured SA, 

 plus reffing ( against England) at the breakdown, nullified their front foot ambitions and was choreographed towards SA quick ball attack. And the TMO input sound turned off, the viewing world  watching  a ‘fair’ contest  not!

There’s nothing shameful about flagging up 

Reffing and the TMO. There are agendas being played out there. Worse still when it cost Wales a Grand Slam. 

5

Does seem that the first 6 nations that I haven't followed for 20 years has been one of the most interesting 

 Robert Durran 27 Mar 2021
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

> Does seem that the first 6 nations that I haven't followed for 20 years has been one of the most interesting 

Could lack of home crowd advantage have been a factor?

 Toccata 27 Mar 2021
In reply to idiotproof (Buxton MC):

I’ve struggled with the lack of atmosphere too. No crowds, not sitting around the pub table, no weekends away. There’s more to rugby than rugby.

 the sheep 27 Mar 2021
In reply to Toccata:

Some of the rugby and drama has been superb 

Some has been dire, mainly England and that’s from an England supporter  

Removed User 28 Mar 2021
In reply to Gone for good:

🏴󠁧󠁢󠁷󠁬󠁳󠁿

 PaulTclimbing 30 Mar 2021
In reply to Dr.S at work:

I haven’t suggested any Ref was crooked. Although this could be an inference you choose to make or a perception of a watching audience when they witness more recent games and since the general acceptance of TMO, Video playback etc. Although WB is consistently bad; lousy. What I’m suggesting is that for large parts of the most major games the scale and usage of the TMO has changed in the ‘ big games’ and Finals. Whereby the viewing audience cannot receive TMO feedback fully or in part, the recognition that the ref has a drip feed of ear worm info,  the refs ‘eye sight’ being made even more foggy than their spectacles informing them/forcing them to address issues/ignoring others, this having a crucial impact on the way the game plays out, that it appears refs decision but it could be a supportive alliance to the referee that is dominant in the background which is not infallible. However, when we see refs with a preconceived narrative on players/styles of play and managing them through infringement/guidance/ retribution for example for some reason this has always favoured rugby hegemonic nations ie NZ as an example as being aware and playing the ‘correct ‘ rules but now 

( thus comment above ignoring the headshots stuff, that’s a different thing) 

in six nations as well; it wouldn’t be a leap of the intellect to think that there is a hierarchy in rugby, required and maintained in close association, 

of by a ‘board’ or that of a ‘union’ to require its members to entertain in the ‘correct’ way and that there is therefore a good selection of ‘outcomes’ 

to fulfill the groupings of a WR cup finals rankings etc. Or stop the erosion of support/bolster underperforming teams ( Scotland now, SA japan) Or other associated narrative. 
Nigel Owens alluded to pre conceived judgements on players/play and awareness of ‘ what they do’ in a game, such things in refereeing intervention when reviewing footage of the ‘critically wrong’ refereeing decisions that cost Wales the Grand Slam, not so long ago, doubtless not going as far as other viewing public’s perceptions could  

but if one innocent viewer could look at a game, identify the differences in TMO interactions in audible TMO ( turned off in high profile matches) as a potential to bring disrepute on the game as being rigged someway , even though that’s a huge call, then there is  more obvious  problem 

and viewers will turn off believing it’s rigged in the future  In fact the point I made about England ( eg in scrum Japan )  was that they were put under huge pressure by Quiet/silent TMO direction to ref and thus was blatantly wrong  this appeared to give SA ascendancy in the scrum  which was not the case, but hey why spoil a good longer term  story  I’m guessing this must have been identified as to changes around ‘ use it’ command  

And a problem recognised by some nations as the lack of countdown at the ‘ use it ‘ call to the scrum half at five seconds has been to stop the ‘timing issues’ that could impart unfair competition for the ball and what England experienced in Japan WC final that exasperated their play and did lead to errors or facilitated SA rampage/dominance , nonsense.  
 

this was as a consequence  as they were continuously given 2 metres front foot attack choreographed timed play  at scrum half of breakdown  if you watch it again sometime  and could only have been identified by officials prior to game or TMO in game  

your YouTube pundit took the reffing as a ‘given/constant’ assuming accurate enforcement or fairness and did not reference its significance to an outcome in any detail, unfortunately for Wales, they have been on the receiving end of this in many high status/tournament games and the phasing out of TMO voice throughout the game is unsatisfactory as it cannot be questioned

and needs to be  

Post edited at 08:02
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