4 season tyres

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 jon 30 Oct 2021

Does anyone have first hand experience of 4 season tyres? Are they noisy? Do they wear as quickly as winter tyres? Do they affect the handling? Are they a lot better in snow than summer tyres? Would you buy them again? Anything else I should know?

Thanks in advance.

1
 wbo2 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

> Does anyone have first hand experience of 4 season tyres? Yes, conti and Goodyear  Are they noisy? No   Do they wear as quickly as winter tyres? No   Do they affect the handling? Not in a negative way.  Big improvement in rain, rubbish roads  Are they a lot better in snow than summer tyres? Yes, and generally rubbish conditions as well  Would you buy them again? Yes I did  Anything else I should know?  Make life a bit easier if you go to thd mountains a lot.  Any cost difference to normal tyres is pretty minimal  

> Thanks in advance.

Post edited at 21:25
 SouthernSteve 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

We live on a hill and have had winter tyres consistently in the past on the Passat. They seem fine in every way,  but do seem a bit melty if you leave them on the hot summer! We have had the Michelin all year tyres on the other car when we had it - a Golf (the first generation of Michelin [I think they have just been updated] and they were useful, letting you get about when others were slipping and sliding, not being noisy, but they were expensive). Beware, its a real pain when you get to work and all you colleagues and clients don't!

 Philip 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I have M+S tyres (Pirelli Scorpion Verde All Season) on my Merc GLC, apparently most 4wd have them due to softer rubber helping with crabbing on full lock. They last quite well despite weight of the car, but as also run flat not cheap. About £150 per corner.

I've had M+S on my 4wd audis A5 and A7 before as used to travel to Europe in winter to areas requiring them. I think I'd choose them as standard now. Not planning to buy another ice car, so will take advice on EV when the time comes.

3
 john arran 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

Never had winter tyres to compare, but the all-season tyres I had seemed to me to be indistinguishable from summer tyres for most of the year, and significantly better in snow.

 JoshOvki 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I have Michelin Cross Climate 2 on my van, they have been brilliant in summer and winter. Much better than the road tyres I had on the van previously (I don't remember what they were). Not noticed any excessive wear in the last year, and have been really good in light snow (nothing crazy) and muddy tracks.

In reply to JoshOvki:

Same for me up  here in NW Highlands. Michelin Cross Climate on my Focus estate. Happy with their performance over the past year including a snowy winter 

 rif 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I've used Goodyear Vector 4S for ~10 years in Scotland/N England and find them great: quiet, very durable (40k miles last time), reassuring in cold wet weather (presumably not a problem for you!), and nearly as good as full winters on snow.

I just wish all-seasons were standard on new cars here.

 TobyA 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

> Does anyone have first hand experience of 4 season tyres?

Yes, quite a lot.

> Are they noisy?

Friction tyres like I've had in the UK, no. Studded tyres like I had in Finland, yes - a bit.

> Do they wear as quickly as winter tyres?

Can't remember my full on winter tyres wearing particularly quickly, but the CrossClimates I've had in recent years don't seem to wear any faster than "normal" tyres.

> Do they affect the handling?

Only positively in wet cold, frosty or snowy conditions.

> Are they a lot better in snow than summer tyres?

Hugely so. There are some comments somewhere in the first half of this https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/features/chasing_the_very_bloody_epheme... but I was massively impressed.

> Would you buy them again?

Bought a newish car a year ago, but didn't get rid of the old one before last winter, so drove in the snow last winter in the old one with the Cross Climates on it. Currently trying to decide whether I can justify buying a new set for the new car when the current summer tyres are still OK. But if we get any winter conditions south of Scotland this winter I'll be kicking myself if I can't get out of the Peak or into the Lakes or N Wales without them!

1
 65 30 Oct 2021
In reply to The Watch of Barrisdale:

> Same for me up  here in NW Highlands. Michelin Cross Climate on my Focus estate. Happy with their performance over the past year including a snowy winter 

That's good to hear, I've just put the same on an Octavia Scout (4x4 so should be fairly unstoppable in most conditions). I had Continental 4 season tyres on a VW van (terrible in snow on normal tyres) and they made a noticeable difference but without the slightly soft feeling of pure winter tyres. Had proper winters (Michelin Alpin) on a BMW, no problems going up and down Glenshee while many cars were getting stuck.

 AJK87 30 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

If you have a car you are going to keep for long enough to justify it, and can afford it, buying a second set of wheels to fit true Winter tyres to is better in every way.

Remember that Winter tyres aren't just about snow, they out perform Summer tyres when the ambient temperature is 7 degrees or below.

The initial outlay for a 2nd set of rims and tyres feels a bit excessive, but the tyres last ages as you are alternating them, not to mention using tyres perfectly suited to the season.

4 season tyres are really a compromise, and as such don't truly excel in Summer or Winter. 

If you can't justify 2 sets of wheels and tyres, and you're happy with a compromise then 4 season may be the way to go.

4
 Ridge 30 Oct 2021
In reply to rif:

> I've used Goodyear Vector 4S for ~10 years in Scotland/N England and find them great: quiet, very durable (40k miles last time), reassuring in cold wet weather (presumably not a problem for you!), and nearly as good as full winters on snow.

Another Goodyear Vector user. Slightly less grip in dry, hot conditions (only really noticeable when new and if you push it), but you soon adapt and don't notice it. Much better than standard tyres in snow and ice, and I've noticed no difference in road noise or tyre wear.

IMHO unless you live in the Highlands of Scotland all season tyres are the best compromise for UK roads.

 Martin W 30 Oct 2021
In reply to Philip:

> I've had M+S on my 4wd audis A5 and A7 before as used to travel to Europe in winter to areas requiring them.

"M+S" has no official meaning - it's something manufacturers put on tyres that they think wil perform better such conditions, but there's no standard that has to be met for a tyre to qualify as "M+S".  Basically, they could put it on pretty much anything if they felt like it (though they'd likely end up with a fair few p1ssed off customers if they did).

The symbol that indicates that a winter or all-season tyre has passed the official standard for use in winter conditions is the Three Peak Mountain Snowflake symbol, aka the 3PMSF, which looks like this: http://clipart-library.com/image_gallery/n1609385.jpg.

Confusingly, a lot of manufacturers put the 3PMSF symbol and the much less meaningful/important "M+S" mark on their tyres.    Some even do it in a way that makes the combination look like a single symbol - but it's not: the 3PMSF symbol is entirely sufficient on its own.  It does not need the "M+S" to accompany it, and the "M+S" conveys far less useful information about the tyre's actual tested performance than the 3PMSF symbol.  (It's the 3PMSF symbol that the Gendarmes et al will look for when deciding whether or not to let you proceed up a snowed-covered Alpine pass.)

These days I run Goodyear Vector all-season tyres because I got bored having to swap wheels twice a year, and the tyres perform just fine for me in all weather conditions I've experienced to date in Scotland, including calf-deep snow that almost risked beaching the car.  I did run my winter tyres through the following summer one year and TBH didn't notice any significant loss of performance cf the "summer" tyres - through those were getting marginal on tread by then (which was why I didn't bother putting them on).

Both the winter and the all-season tyres perform so much better in deep standing water than "summer" tyres - which is handy, because you tend to encounter quite a lot of that in Scotland (very much so this past week).

1
 RobertKett 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I've been very impressed by the performance of Michelin Cross Climates too. Initially I put a pair on the front wheels; just doing that was a significant improvement. Also, they still feel responsive and give feedback in colder conditions, when standard tyres can feel 'dead'. I'll choose them again.

 Alpenglow 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

No noisier than summer tyres.

No significant wear difference to summer tyres. 

Massively improved performance in snow, and cold wet conditions. If you drive a powerful/fast car and drive it hard you'll probably notice a slight dry handling penalty, but otherwise you won't notice.

Yes I always buy them to run all year round and have no regrets. 

Best model on the market currently: Michelin Crossclimate 2

2nd best: Vredestein Quatrac (note not Quatrac 5 - different tyre), almost as good as CC2 but a lot cheaper and excellent for the price

Worth mentioning: Continental AllSeasonContact, Goodyear Vector 4 Season Gen 3, Bridgestone Weather Control A005 EVO, Hankook Kinergy 4S2, Pirelli All Season SF2

There's a lot of info on tyrereviews.com

Note that all season tyres are a compromise that can be difficult for the cheaper brands to get right, so stick to premium/mid range brands (all the ones I mentioned are good).

Post edited at 00:37
 jimtitt 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Martin W:

> "M+S" has no official meaning - it's something manufacturers put on tyres that they think wil perform better such conditions, but there's no standard that has to be met for a tyre to qualify as "M+S".  Basically, they could put it on pretty much anything if they felt like it (though they'd likely end up with a fair few p1ssed off customers if they did).

Actually the M+S symbol is an official DOT standard and clearly defined (the Alpine symbol is a US/Canadian standard as well).

The M+S symbol is acknowledged in the EU directive and in some European countries used to define winter tyres, in Latvia for example it is the only recognised identifier. In Germany and Ausria (and probably others) it is the identifier for winter tyres on vehicles over 3.5 tons.

For motorcycles it is the only identifier as there is no suitable test for the Alpine symbol. Motorcycles are generally exempted from the winter tyre requirements though.

 Ridge 31 Oct 2021
In reply to RobertKett:

> I've been very impressed by the performance of Michelin Cross Climates too. Initially I put a pair on the front wheels; just doing that was a significant improvement. Also, they still feel responsive and give feedback in colder conditions, when standard tyres can feel 'dead'. I'll choose them again.

Interestingly our local garage refused to fit all season tyres on one axle only (e.g front only). His explanation, (which seems a fair one), is you have improved traction and grip at the front so the car feels to be handling normally until the back end suddenly lets go without warning under cornering or braking.

 Root1 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

All weather tyres are according to the spiel about 95% effective as proper winter tyres. In my experience they are fine for everything winter in this country can throw at you. Plus, you don't need a separate set of wheels and have to change them every year.

OP jon 31 Oct 2021
In reply to AJK87:

> If you have a car you are going to keep for long enough to justify it, and can afford it, buying a second set of wheels to fit true Winter tyres to is better in every way.

Yes agreed, and that's what I did on three different cars when we lived in the alps. But now, having lived in a part of Provence for eight years where it tyically snows 10cm twice a year, and is then gone the next day, haven't given snow tyres a thought... until now (and this might be of interest to anyone coming down here during the winter months). From tomorrow (1 Nov > 31 Mar) certain departments/regions are making it law that you must be equipped with either winter tyres or chains, much like the alpine departments have always done. It's further complicated in that not all communes in those departments are affected - I'm not sure what the criteria is that defines those communes, maybe altitude? The area where I live is unaffected so I can continue to drive on summer tyres all year - but I only have to go 20 or so km further east, still in the same department, to be in a zone affected. Carrying chains is an obvious answer, but winter tyres is a much better one... except that I really don't want to drive in what is essentially summer conditions for 99% of the time around here, on winter tyres. Hence the interest in 4 season tyres.

https://www.service-public.fr/particuliers/actualites/A14389?fbclid=IwAR36a...

https://www.ledauphine.com/societe/2021/09/28/pneus-neige-dans-la-drome-les...

Post edited at 09:55
 TobyA 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Ridge:

That does sound very logical although I think for a couple of winters, I only had them on the front and the car was absolutely fine - I drove over to North Wales (normally about 3 hrs) on the Friday night of the Beast from East week and although it was fairly epic I got along lots of back lanes where other cars had been abandoned. I'm sure 4 is better, but 2 on the drive wheels is hugely better than none!

4
 dsiska 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I come from central Europe where by law you must have winter tyres in the winter. Proper winter tyres make a huge difference in the cold (below 7 degrees C they are better even on dry tarmac, on snow the difference is huge). 

Here in Scotland I have a Passat on Michelin CrossClimate (all season) since 2015 and I think they've done 30000 miles. Perhaps it's because Scotland never gets that hot but they seem to be wearing no faster than normal tyres. 

They are no nosier than the tyres they replaced and they are much better in wet and incomparably better in mud and snow. I still remember nabbing pretty much the last parking spot in Glen Coe ski centre car park when there was snow all the way down to valley floor and this place was a bit more uphill than the rest (the Passat is only front wheel drive but the hill defeated 4x4 with summer tyres). I dare say they're almost as good as full-on winter tyres. 

 rif 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

Here's the most up-to-date comparative review I can find. 

https://www.autoexpress.co.uk/features/92863/best-all-season-tyres-2020-top...

 RobertKett 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Ridge:

That's a reasonable position, I think, and well worth making. My experience does align with that of Toby A though.

It's useful to have these discussions.

 Alpenglow 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

Most up to date reviews:

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2021-Tyre-Reviews-All-Season-Tyre-Test....

https://www.tyrereviews.com/Article/2021-Auto-Bild-All-Season-Tyre-Test.htm

Point to note, have a look at the individual results for each category. A lot of these tests give almost equal rating to dry, wet and snow performance, whereas in the UK we don't see snow very often. For the UK, wet should be prioritised, then dry, then snow. At the end of the video in the first link he gives a different weighting for mild/UK climates.

TL;DR Michelin CC2, Vredestein Quatrac and Pirelli SF2 come out top for mild climates.

 Ridge 31 Oct 2021
In reply to RobertKett:

> That's a reasonable position, I think, and well worth making. My experience does align with that of Toby A though.

To be honest I've always adopted the 'best tyres on the front' ethos because that's where all the traction (on a front wheel drive) and steering input is. 

Thinking about it a bit more, it's also where you get all the feedback from the road and you start feeling understeer and wheelspin as grip decreases and you adapt your driving based on that feedback.

I reckon if you're a sensible driver you'll be absolutely fine in the vast majority of conditions with winter/4 season on the front only, but I can envisage there's a risk of the car feeling nice and solid at one moment then it all suddenly going wrong the next.

> It's useful to have these discussions.

Indeed.

4
 Dax H 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Ridge:

Tyre tests. This is for worn Vs unworn but it holds true for snow on the front and normal on the back.

youtube.com/watch?v=T6mARVoDwjw&

If you want a pair of tyres my local garage will only fit them to the rear and if it's fronts you need they fit your rears to the front and put the new ones on the rear.

 jimtitt 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Dax H:

Yup, all the tests show the better tyres should be at the back and that's the recommendation from the tyre and car manufacturers as well as the various car clubs (and the German government for me). Loss of control of the back-end is the worst-case scenario so takes priority. Also except in deep snow the increased tread depth on the front increases the braking distance.

Snow tyres only on the front allow you to get to the corner where you crash faster!

 65 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Ridge:

> To be honest I've always adopted the 'best tyres on the front' ethos because that's where all the traction (on a front wheel drive) and steering input is. 

Talk about driving in the snow always starts off about traction but I've long thought that if I can't stop or turn a corner then I don't really want to get going in the first place. 

 Rick Graham 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

The economics of comparative wear become quite irrelevant  if you have a crash or bump that could have been avoided with better tyres.

Extra wheels , steels are cheap in the UK , are far more cost effective than swapping tyres on one set of rims. Also easy to sell on.

 neilh 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I have used them in the past.  Brilliant in the wet.  It never snowed. So ditched them after a couple of seasons waiting for snow. 
 

A lot will depend on where you live etc 

 Martin W 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

> Actually the M+S symbol is an official DOT standard and clearly defined

You're right.  But the M+S standard is based on the geometry of the tread design and requires no actual performance standard to achieve, unlike the 3PMSF standard.

There's an interesting article here about comparative tests of summer tyres vs tyres with "M+S" and tyres with 3PMSF: https://www.pneurama.com/en/rivista_articolo.php/-MUD-AND-SNOW-VS-THREE-PEA...  Reference the debate about which end to put a single pair of winter or all-season tyres, the section headed "Always recommend homogeneous equipment" (the article has been translated from the original Italian, a little clumsily in places) states:

The car equipped with summer tires, while maintaining an overall homogeneous behavior, showed in all conditions problems of grip and handling inducing a very cautious driving style. The vehicle equipped with 4 3PMSF tires, on the other hand, performed without any problem and in total safety. The car with mixed equipment, offered an illusory sense of security on a straight road that disappeared immediately when cornering and braking; the lack of grip on the rear axle could cause a total loss of control and send the vehicle into a spin. The mixed configuration turned out to be the most dangerous because it betrayed the driver when cornering.

1
 Dark-Cloud 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Ridge:

Goodyear Vector 4seasons here too but in the Cargo model as I have them on a T5, I used to run winter tyres but storing and swapping was a pain, they have been fine in most conditions, I would fit them again with no hesitation.

 whenry 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

As others have said, all season tyres are worth it in the UK. I've used Goodyear Vector4 and been very pleased with them; I've used Bridgestone Weather Control tyres before, and found them much more noisy and they became stepped very quickly. I'd not recommend the latter at all.

OP jon 31 Oct 2021
In reply to Dark-Cloud:

> Goodyear Vector 4seasons here too but in the Cargo model as I have them on a T5...

Ah, you've made me realise that I've maybe missed one vital bit of information. The tyres are destined for a Renault Trafic, not a car, and are therefore reinforced... Would I be right in assuming all the comments apply equally to reinforced and normal tyres?

 john arran 31 Oct 2021
In reply to jon:

I have no idea which tyres may be 'reinforced' (whatever that means!) but just to say that my experience above was with budget all-season tyres on ... a Renault Trafic 🙂

OP jon 01 Nov 2021
In reply to john arran:

> whatever that means...

Well, just that tyres for utilitaire vehicles are not the same as those for cars. But that answers my question exactly! Thanks John!

 CurlyStevo 01 Nov 2021
In reply to jon:

+1 for Cross Climate best of both worlds and do not wear too quickly and are not too noisy! I think in the long run all tyres for countries that do fairly regularly get snow (say atleast as much as they UK) should go this way.

Post edited at 09:13
 CurlyStevo 01 Nov 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> That does sound very logical although I think for a couple of winters, I only had them on the front and the car was absolutely fine - I drove over to North Wales (normally about 3 hrs) on the Friday night of the Beast from East week and although it was fairly epic I got along lots of back lanes where other cars had been abandoned. I'm sure 4 is better, but 2 on the drive wheels is hugely better than none!

I think that advise is outdated now,  its not recommended to just fit two at the front. I wonder how insurance companies would view it if the rear end slipped out. AFAIK its illegal in Germany.

1
 whenry 01 Nov 2021
In reply to CurlyStevo:

I'm not sure it is - the tyre place I use said it was fine, and they're normally reliable. Obviously different tyres on the same axle is a bad idea...

3
 LastBoyScout 01 Nov 2021
In reply to jon:

I've got Michelin Cross Climate on my Audi - needed 3 new tyres pre-MOT, so went for a full set, as not much difference in price (at the time - think there was an offer on them).

Grippy in the dry and much better in the cold and wet than the Falken Ziex eCorun they replaced, which would wheelspin pulling away in the damp.

Wasn't that impressed with them in the snow, though. Disappointing grip, even appreciating they aren't a full winter tyre - I'd expected better.

The softer rubber and tread pattern mean they are a nightmare for picking up bits of grit and gravel - I'm forever flicking them out.

I haven't noticed them being any noisier - I'd expect them to be quieter, as they're softer.

Can't really comment that much on lifetime of them or effect on fuel economy - that car doesn't get used much anyway and, since March last year, hardly at all.

On current usage, I'd buy them again for that car at that mileage if there wasn't any difference in price with "normal" tyres.

Post edited at 09:56
 Dave Garnett 01 Nov 2021
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> Wasn't that impressed with them in the snow, though. Disappointing grip, even appreciating they aren't a full winter tyre - I'd expected better.

It does depend what you are putting them on though.  I have Cross Climates on the Jag and although they are very good in the wet, the occasional muddy field and icy conditions within reason, they aren't great in deep snow.  But then, even though it's 4x4, the wheels are just too wide for that sort of foolishness and I was comparing it with the Discovery, which it clearly isn't.

 Martin W 01 Nov 2021
In reply to whenry:

> I'm not sure it is - the tyre place I use said it was fine, and they're normally reliable.

You might want to reconsider your assessment of that tyre fitter.  Plenty of people have posted on this thread about why it's bad idea, and my post yesterday https://www.ukhillwalking.com/forums/off_belay/4_season_tyres-740694?v=1#x9539... even included a quote from a comparative test of driving on snow with 3PMSF-marked tyres on the front only, and front+rear.  There clear conclusion was that front-only is not a good idea.  (And I doubt the Germans would make it illegal just for shits and giggles...)

 Toerag 01 Nov 2021
In reply to Martin W:

>   There clear conclusion was that front-only is not a good idea.

It was a good idea for me -  the understeer in the wet on normal tyres in my van was ridiculous to the point that going round corners was done with the same amount of gingerness as a novice going round corners on an ice rink requires.  The difference between my old but still easily legal 'normal' tyres and new all-weather ones is like night and day in the wet. I now find myself lighting up an inside back wheel all the time in the wet due to the increased front end grip causing more roll and un-weighting of the back inside wheel.  The 'backwards through a hedge' threshold is so much higher than the old 'understeer through a hedge' one that my safety has improved.  Once my rears wear out I'll replace them with all weather tyres too (will put the fronts on the back and new tyres on the front - avoiding an understeer accident with higher probability is more important than avoiding an oversteer one which is highly unlikely to happen).

2
 Baron Weasel 01 Nov 2021
In reply to jon:

I've just put winter tyres on my van (old vivaro) and my fuel consumption has gone from 35mpg to 25mpg! If I had realised it would have such a big effect I would have gone for all season tyres!

 jimtitt 01 Nov 2021
In reply to Martin W:

It isn't illegal in Germany, just not recommended.

 AJK87 01 Nov 2021
In reply to Baron Weasel:

Unless you live a lot further North than The Lakes it isn't cold enough yet.

As they are softer, above 7 degrees they will be softer than is desirable and therefore you will have increased rolling resistance, hence poorer fuel consumption.

Don't assume it is purely because they are winter tyres per se. Different tyres and tread patterns are different when it comes to MPG anyway.

I've just fitted 4 winter tyres to my Octavia Scout and the MPG is slightly lower but not much. Over the next month or so I expect the MPG to improve as it gets colder. I expect you will find the same.

You should also consider how much you have reduced your chances of having a crash this winter (assuming you drive sensibly) and offset the associated costs of a possible crash against your loss on MPG

 Baron Weasel 01 Nov 2021
In reply to AJK87:

I will be crossing kirkstone quite a bit if we have a good winter, but for the moment it's looking like a mistake to have winter tyres. I needed to replace them badly as when I checked 3 were illegal and the other borderline and in the spring I am going to get another set of rims and summer tyres. Good to know mileage should improve when it gets colder. I'm looking into getting it remapped as well as it's really lacking in torque. 

 colinakmc 02 Nov 2021
In reply to jon:

I haven’t tried all-season tyres all year round though interestingly Mrs colinakmc’ s newly acquired Peugeot 2008 has them as standard, we shall see how they do over the winter.  My 3 series has a set of Goodyear winter tyres, now 7 years old, which were just showing signs of going “off” last winter. Their performance in snow and ice is amazing - the car just chugs through anything up to about 25cm of snow, and stays completely predictable driven carefully on ice. They’ve probably done about 25000 miles by now, one of them  acquired a sidewall cut last winter so I’ll be replacing two. Only off putting thing is the biennial faff of changing 4 wheels (getting a bit old for it now) and having a stack of tyres in your garage all year round but my summer rears will need to be changed in the spring while the fronts have at least another year in them.

Never detected any difference in fuel consumption - maybe I drive more slowly in winter but not by much!

 Dark-Cloud 02 Nov 2021
In reply to whenry:

> I'm not sure it is - the tyre place I use said it was fine, and they're normally reliable. Obviously different tyres on the same axle is a bad idea...

That's not sound advice, i think i would find a different tyre fitter....

1
 Martin W 02 Nov 2021
In reply to jimtitt:

> It isn't illegal in Germany, just not recommended.

Thanks for the clarification (my somewhat flippant remark was based on CurlyStevo's post at 09:20 on Monday).


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