UKH

I've recently found out that mountain rescue teams are civil volunteers. Is this a common practice all around the world and why is that so? 

Some are pretty uncivil.

But, to answer your point, it enables many highly trained and motivated searchers/rescuers with exceptional local knowledge to turn out onto the hill within the hour without being a liability. You can't pay for that level of skill-readiness-availability from the public purse.

Also, from my experience, most, if not all, team members feel that doing it voluntarily is the reason it works in the UK, team members don't rescue climbers and walkers, they are climbers and walkers, and you look after your own, and anybody else that needs it. Again, you can't pay for that mindset from the public purse - it is priceless.

I should stop being surprised that people think Mountain Rescue in the UK is a paid professional organisation! We're all volunteers, and indeed fork out to be in MR by paying for much of our kit, fuel expenses to training and callouts, and time spent not just on callouts but training and fundraising. That's not supposed to be a sob story: most of us willingly and happy give our time and resources to the team because - as DD so eloquently explains, we're climbers and walkers ourselves and we want to give something back to our community (plus we get to do some really fun stuff as well!)

DerwentDiluted's provided an excellent answer. We work on behalf of the police, and they simply don't have the resources to turn out the trained personnel in the numbers that a bunch of trained professional volunteers can. Whilst many teams in the UK are extremely busy (mine is averaging c.130 callouts a year, but Llanberis if I recall correctly are over double that), it wouldn't be economically viable to keep in full employment the numbers you need when you have a 2 hour stretcher carry-off.

As to your other question - for the countries I know about - Iceland, Ireland and Australia all have volunteer search and rescue organisations

If it's not a fully funded organisation how can it operate within a reasonable time frame? And why shouldn't the government fund fireman and paramedics but not mountain rescue? I'm asking these questions because I recently had to deal with MR in Bulgaria and their service was mediocre. Thank god that we have volunteers but how can a developed country not invest in rescue service? I can see that UK is also serviced by volunteers but I feel that they should be paid. 

Could I suggest you have a look at the Mountain Rescue England and Wales website?

https://www.mountain.rescue.org.uk/

If you click on the About Us button you'll be able to get through to some FAQs about MR, including a downloadable 'fact file' where you may find some answers to your questions

Your post seems to be based on the false premise that MR in Britain is mediocre. It isn't.

Note though that volunteers work with the police and coastguard (helicopters) to ensure that all skills and resources are available when needed.

You'll struggle to get a better explanation than those already given. If you can't get your head around MRT being volunteers best not to do any research into where the funding for most of the air ambulance services around the UK comes from ;p

I hope I don't sound like an ungrateful c**k. I wasn't saying that the UK MR is mediocre - just my experiences with MR have been poor in countries and mountains with easy access and MR have just let people die. And these were touristy areas. I understand what you mean by dedication to the sport and willingness to help. It happened to me-wanted to help but couldn't due to the lack of gear. And morally it's sometimes wrong to ask somebody to sacrifice his life for tourists that ignore warnings. Let their insurance pay for the service. Have 2 people at least on 24/7 posts in key locations and only then you can expect a person to be alert and ready for mobilisation. I'm sorry I don't quite understand how the MR structure work but I can't grasp how for example a person with a day job and family can be a good part-time policeman. In my experience MR decided they should not spend resources and go up just to clear the bodies. In one of the cases the people that were left stranded managed their way down themselves (luckily) but my second experience remained a mystery and I feel guilty that I could've saved potential avalanche casualties. I relied on MR and the only thing I got from them was 'we'll go dig them out in the morning'. This is like fireman saying 'let the building burn and we'll retract the bodies when it's safe'. If you want to get a job done money should talk - i.e. look at what's happening on Everest...if you want to rescue somebody you pay the Sherpas to get the dirty job done. It's a sad truth but when the situation goes tits up - money talks. 

Not the experience of anybody that gets into trouble in Britain's mountains and seas. I know an RNLI lad of 20 and an MR woman of my own vintage (though she looks much younger), and they both drop whatever they're doing, whatever the weather, whenever they're needed. Personal risk doesn't seem to come into it much when someone else's life is on the line (Penlee springs to mind). Perhaps there's a difference between doing stuff for money and just doing stuff purely because you want to help people.

Is it terribly gauche and unfashionable to feel a sense of pride that we share a country with such people and such institutions?

I don’t think you really understand how it works here.  People choose to go out, people choose to give their time and energy to look after others.  It works well here.  It is effective and efficient.  It isn’t possible to compare here and Bulgaria as they are different places with different histories.  MR here has a long and proud history of volunteers who are the experts, they are a force that we couldn’t possibly afford to pay for and we are lucky to have this.  

It is because (and not despite) the service is free that we don’t have bean counters telling anyone that they can’t spend resources on this or that.  

 It's a sad truth but when the situation goes tits up - money talks. 

No it doesn't. I'm not sure rescuing someone in the death zone on a Himalayan peak and a UK MRT call out is a good comparison- completely different environments and risks involved.

Stichtplate gives another great example of the RNLI as a voluntary rescue service. The people involved just want to help others in need. 

In answer to your questions...

MR works in tandem with other services such as Police and RAF. Training and good organisation and communication mean that they can mobilise quickly. One should also not under estimate local knowledge.

And why shouldn't the government fund fireman and paramedics but not mountain rescue?

To be honest we are lucky enough that they fund the first two.

how can a developed country not invest in rescue service?

For various reasons 1. there is no tradition of it, 2. cost to central/local government 3. once you go down the line of funding then you actually could end up with a poorer service as funds are deflected into admin costs and it becomes succceptable to cut backs and rationalisation.

However we are not left totally to our own devices

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/extra-funding-for-mountain-rescue

Even so most of the money comes from charity events and the volunteers themselves.

Government funded did not equal fully funded. 

The RNLI annual budget is around £170 million per year. This almost exclusively comes from legacies and donations, with some coming from the sale of services, such as beach safety audits... As a charity the Charity commission sets the organisation rules about how much reserves of cash they must hold to continue operations should there be a funding downturn. Government funding can be  very much more precarious IMHO. 

95%of the staff are volunteers, including most lifeboat crew, the remainder are infrastructure needed to run a large complex organisation and lifeguards who have to be in place on a beach for a set shift during the summer season. 

There is a mix of reactive and pro active roles and some do both, e.g. Lifeguards will give safety advice to people on the beach, but also rescue people. Some lifeboat crew also volunteer in Community Safety. 

Response time to launch of a boat from request for help from the MCA is typically under 10 minutes. That's pretty amazing. 

I am very lucky to be involved with this safety and rescue organisation and it has been really good for me and to me. 

I have been in trouble in England. Mountain Rescue were extremely competent, extremely nice and very patient. Really amazing people doing an excellent job. And to think they are volunteers - I think it's amazing.

Now on the other hand I have been in trouble in France. PGHM were extremely competent, extremely nice and very patient. Excellent people doint a really amazing job. And they are professionals, too. That's amazing.

I should stop putting myself in those situations though.

I cannot thank the voluntary Mountain rescue services of the Uk enough. A recent article/clip of Cairgorm MRC stated that they will effect a rescue in all conditions in their area and more importantly they are fully equipped and trained so highly and so capable. I have witnessed there expertise and assisted in evacuation of walkers stuck for 2 nights in 100mph winds and blizzard and my local team helped a friend of mine not so long ago. Capably supported by helicopter pilot who received a DFC for his flying. Your post underestimates their ability, their morals, their judgement skills and their huge significant contribution in saving lives in the uk and other daily work they do eg. supporting ambulance services in rural areas for example in winter storms for dialysis sufferers to get to hospital etc. You could contribute to their charitable support. In contrast you could pay for some public services who rescue under orders... they may be reluctant to go into places of danger and we have heard when their superiors have told them not to rescue to stand down on safety grounds and sadly there has been loss of life when the responders have believed it possible to save (but may have been valid judgements). The immense local knowledge of MRC's and networks of support eg knowing the paths, mountain terrain, climbs, local farms, access roads , people with skills in local areas could not be paid for. Half of them live underneath the crag etc. So it seems to me that your fee paying service would be commercial... like you say money talks... its speaking the negatives of your idea to me personally. Encoraching to make a buck. Finally their skills are honed over years. A rescue further builds on this expertise and so they publicly declare on social media etc that they aim to support all. In conversation with a local MR to me was very supportive after assistance. However the lady at home in lincolnshire watching social media from a far who made adverse comments rather like yours wasn't very supportive.

I do believe that areas that actively promote themselves as Adventure Capitals, or something similar, have a responsibility to provide some form of assistance to their local rescue service. Maybe just a substantial donation to the local MRT team, rate relief on team headquarters, etc. 

John

As has been said, this is how it works for both MR and the RNLI in the UK.  They are both exceptional in terms of their experience, expertise and willingness to go out in all conditions to save people.  The latter including for people who are poorly equipped in poor weather and who should probably not be out there.  We have a tradition in the UK of the mountains being open whatever the conditions and not being restricted to particular safe paths.

MR teams in the UK regularly comment on how they will go out to whoever is in need of them and they take little or no (public) moral stance on whether those people have gone out in the "wrong conditions, poorly equipped or experienced".  In fact recently Llanberis Mountain Rescue said about the recommendation to not go out on Snowdonia recently - “The ethos of mountain rescue was, and remains, that of ‘mountaineers helping other mountaineers’ and we will continue to turn out to people who feel they need our help without judgment.".  Occasionally they will publicly talk about rescues of poorly equipped people only to educate others and to make the mountains safer for everyone.  My experience of the RNLI is that they have the same attitude.

I recommend you read more about how MR teams are trained and operate. Whilst voluntary, they are extremely professional in training and operations and I am sure are at least comparable to the fully professional services in other countries.  We are extremely lucky to have both voluntary MR teams and the RNLI in the UK.  They are truly world leading and save many, many lives every year due to their dedication and hard work.  But, at the same time my understanding is that they truly enjoy what they do and would never stop it.

Please donate to your local MR team or through Mountain Rescue England and Wales or Scottish Mountain Rescue.  And why not go and talk to them at one of their fundraising events to understand what they do.

...removal of this funding during cuts could adversely affect them. Its a position of power organisations would have over them. Meddling administrators...all sorts. Stop having ideas people.

They are also pretty non judgemental....but give information from which we can learn.

In places like the Atlas mountains you find that it's you foreigners with your crampons and maps and stuff that are the mountain rescue. School parties high on Toubkal, local 18 year olds doing their lone traverse, etc. It's good but a bit worrying all the same

Mountain rescue in Bulgaria is paid, but in your experience is mediocre.  MR in the UK is by unpaid volunteers, and in most people's experience is superb. Based on this, you're arguing for a paid service? Have you thought this through?

I'm very happy to read so many positive reviews. Looks like the system works quite well in UK. My initial idea behind this topic was not to concentrate on UK only and if this model is ethically correct. As I said previously my experience was at higher altitudes in Bulgaria and Russia in places where most of the calls to MR are in result of avalanche or crevasse falls. In these conditions timing is critical and I do think that without proper machinery rescues are not possible. They end up renting machines from private institutions and this is only after a contract between an insurer and the private institution is being signed. This causes too long delays for missions where time is critical. Maybe in UK these cases are more rare or simply all institutions work well together but this model seem to be used in many other countries. I won't be surprised if in future we see more people on the hills which is great - but can rescue teams keep up? Would there be a call to re-structure the whole organisation? 

In terms of fundraising my whole research around this topic was initiated after my idea to start a youtube channel and patreon completely for fundraising for local MRT's. Me and my friends are photographers and have been shooting some films for personal purposes solely. It might sound naive but we know we can create some interesting and educational content featuring a wide range of sports, groups from clubs, different mountain ranges all over the world. There's so much we would like to explore and I know we can actually raise a fair bit. 

This document should give you a good insight to Mountain Rescue in Scotland. 

http://www.scottishmountainrescue.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/09/SMR-2017-R...

Scottish MR have a well developed protocol in case of Avalanche incidents and agreed protocols with Police Scotland, MCA for multiple aircraft response, SARDA search dogs and Scottish Ambulance service's Helicopter Emergency Retrieval Teams. Local teams have agreements in place for supporting each other and getting as many team members on the hill quickly.

Mountain rescue in Bulgaria is structured by volunteers just like UK. And having an organisation funded by the government means that the members will be paid just like the police which they deserve. I'm not standing behind this idea, just asked to compare the pros and cons. It seem horrible that we spend so much budget for the army and barely anything on MRT. People seem to prefer it to be this way so it works well - great. 

The UK is very different from glaciated mountain environments.  The hills are much more accessible to people who would not consider themselves to be mountaineers or even hill-walkers.

Chamonix is very busy all year round with skiers and mountaineers.  The rescue team carries out around 850 rescues a year in the Mont Blanc massif alone.   This justifies having a full-time paid rescue team.  Llanberis MRT, in one of the most popular mountain areas in the UK, deals with between 180-210 incidents each year.  

There may be cultural differences as well. In the UK the tradition from the outset has been that mountaineers would go to the aid of other mountaineers.  Before organised rescue teams were established, a rescue was carried out by rounding up whoever was around.  Even as late as the 1970s it was not unusual for the rescue team to go round the pubs asking for volunteers to help with a carry.  The Alpine countries on the other hand have had a long tradition of professional guides, who were the obvious choices to call upon when a rescue was needed.  The way the services have evolved probably reflects these different origins and traditions.

Something I've never considered but has just struck me reading this......

Because MR/RNLI are largely funded through donations I'm guessing it's the people who are are most likely to use the service who actually pay for it.

Probably more fair than paying for it through general taxation and certainly preferable to insurance and the uncomfortable question of what to do with the uninsured.

Interestingly I am not sure this is totally correct, certainly for the RNLI.  I know of people who do fundraising and donate to the RNLI that rarely if ever go near the sea but similarly lots of people I windsurf with do not donate.  It would be interesting to know what the split is between people most likely to need the services of MR or RNLI and those who do not vs donating/volunteering.

Ethically speaking I think anyone who uses the water should consider donating to the RNLI and anyone who walks the hills should consider donating to MRT.  A little superstitious perhaps,  but I could never ignore a donation tin for either.  It feels like asking for trouble.  I know a lot of my friends feel the same.  

I'm inclined to agree with you. I donate to both pretty equally though am far less likely to require RNLI help than MR. I think it's just because I am in awe of the lifeboat crews; the sea terrifies me!

Unfortunately you miss understand the context of mountaineering and rescue in the Uk. There is World Class Mountain Rescue in Sub arctic mountains realistically giving arctic winter mountains at times but sub alpine in altitude. There is world leading avalanche risk assessment in major mountaineering areas and training courses in national climbing centres. There are strong mountaineering clubs. many are fully aware of the risks and there are frequent weather reports and advice on local and national news. The threat and danger to all this that seems to work well is commercialisation and insurance. wouldn't the insurance companies love to expand their portfolios. Britain throughout history has sometimes been pretty crap. Victorians and others found it bad enough to undertake hair brained schemes to escape to journey to the source of the nile or find the south pole. Everyone else tries there own hair brained scheme within the uk...we all want each other to succeed and stay alive so we help out in a crisis. Like with cars in Britain...insurance companies up, up and up premiums...you have a crunch, take to the repair shop, pay 400 for a crap job,,repair shop doesn't get paid (bils of 3 grand until threatened court action)and you end up with a 700 premium that you talk down to 250 in a 4 hr phone call. Its all make, make ,make. and the vulnerable suffer. We don't need crap service  like that in mountaineering when lives are at stake. But we do need to value our Rescue teams . A search online of Chamonix PGHM shows rapid response teams flown in for crevasse/avalanche rescue that may be appropriate for your needs.

Should the MRT and RNLI (not to menton the numerous air ambulance providers) be centrally funded by government? Well yes in an ideal world I would say they should.

This isn't an ideal world though, and I honestly believe that the current service provided by the volunteers in the UK couldn't be bettered. Infact I fear that provision would be significantly reduced if each team had to justify its very existence against a balance sheet in Westminster.

So why is it better to have a centrally funded service? 

MR and the RNLI are  perhaps good examples of Anarchy in the U.K. 

Just take a look at anything the government has a hand in running.

Do we really want that level of incompetence and penny pinching in our rescue services.

Government interference would be the worst thing ever to happen to the RNLI and MRT

Thankfully neither need or want it

I'll say it again. When Keswick promotes itself as a Adventure Capital in an attempt to boost local tourism it does have a responsibility to provide some extra assistance to the local MRT. Increasing footfall, (maybe an unfortunate term) which is their aim, will more than likely  lead to an increase in the demand for the services of the local MRT teams. 

In some countries the fire service in some areas is voluntary too.

I said in an ideal world... it doesn't sit well with me that in a first world country we rely on public charity to run any of our essential emergency services. 

BUT as you say a change in funding would almost certainly be detrimental to the level of cover in the long term. The fact it is charity and volunteers providing a totally professional service free at the point of need is something I feel very proud to support.

I'm sad you think that, and think you need to learn more about UK mountain rescue.

I'm a Scout Leader.  I have done, and will do, far more things for that than I will ever do for a paid job.

FWIW I live at the wrong end of the country and my skills probably aren't quite there, but were these not the case I would certainly consider joining a MRT and I would not be in the business of "leaving people to die" regardless of whether I was paid or not.  To tar the UK service with this brush while ignorant of how it works is in my view grossly offensive to these hugely committed and well-equipped people.

I think you need to do some more research, and having done it and found your attitude to be misplaced you should make them a financial donation as an apology for this.

This is one of the many things where benefit could come from a tourist tax.

I haven't heard a single decent argument against tourist tax. All the objections to it I've heard seem to just be based on the simplistic notion that tax=bad.

If you are questioning the volunteer status of Mountain Rescue teams in the UK are you also questioning the voluntary status of lifeboat crews. Like MRT they have, I believe, the expertise and local knowledge which would not necessarily be the case with "professionals".

Might I suggest that you make yourself known to a local team and get to know how they operate. You could, perhaps, even offer your services, either on the frontline or by making the occasional cuppa at base.

If you consider that most people visiting places like Keswick do so by car, there already kind-of is one anyway in the form of parking charges.  The advantage of an actual tourist tax though is that it doesn't also whack the locals, and allows those not going by car to contribute, as well as not encouraging people to park in silly places to avoid paying.

The one thing it doesn't get is day-trippers, which is basically impossible to solve unless we also put on a congestion charge or something.

That collie wearing flight goggles as the chopper lands is one of the coolest things I have seen in ages.

More taxation. Yes we'd all love that. More insurance. Too. Oh and while were at it more fences blockages and  private land keep awf. It will be great. 

They are, aren't they? They're doggles :-D

If anyone on here's interested in helping out Mountain Rescue but doesn't have the time to commit to joining a team, I can recommend spending a day as a Dogsbody for SARDA.

Search and Rescue Dogs (like the one in Mr Trebus' link) are utterly gorgeous and completely awesome at helping to save lives. One of our SARDA dogs here in South Wales saved a life a few weeks ago when we were searching for a vulnerable missing person. Skirrid found the misper, so it was possible to get them medical attention quickly.

There are SARDA units across the UK's mountainous areas - South and North Wales; England (including plenty down in the South-West); Lakes, Southern Scotland and Scotland, plus plenty of 'Lowland' Search and Rescue groups from Kent to Stafford (only put Lowland in inverted commas cos some of their areas are gnarlier than some of the 'Mountain' areas).

They all need Dogsbodies who hide out and provide the human scent the dogs need to train. The Dogsbodies sometimes run around playing with younger dogs, but spend a lot of time snoozing on the hillside, watching nature go by or reading / listening to music snug in a bivvy bag. It's the most relaxing way of contributing to mountain safety you could possibly imagine - and you're a vital part of a life-saving organisation.

Search for your local SARDA team, or feel free to message me if you can't find one local to you. And yes, I do have an ulterior motive - I organise the Dogsbodies for SARDA South Wales :-D

It's the pose that gets me. “Bring it on, this time I want to fly it!”