UKH

Hi all,

As you may have seen from my other post, I'm planning on taking a school group on the 3000s this summer for charity. 25 sixth formers are interested. I'm assuming less than 50% will get to the end but I'm asking them to get sponsorship per peak. My question is: which way to go? I'd be keen to start on Snowdon but that means taking lots of novices over Crib Goch which would be very guide-intensive. The other way would mean that only the strongest walkers (i.e. those that are still going by then!) would do Crib Goch and so we would need fewer guides and probably only have the most technically able. 

What do others think?

 

Thanks

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I would do the Welsh 1000m, you will get less of a drop out, still start on Snowdon but finishing at the sea shore which might be nice as an achievement.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

If you start with Crib Goch, I think a fair few will be absolutely terrified and may well be put off doing any further peaks. They'll assume they're all going to be like that. It's easy to under-estimate just how exposed and frightening Crib Goch can be for people who don't have a head for heights. 

I would choose your second option therefore, and save the horseshoe as a grand finale for the hardy souls who persevere.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Could you do the horshoe as a training walk beforehand?

In reply to Jim Houghton:

It's also worth considering the hazard posed by taking relative novices over Crib Goch when they are shagged after doing the other peaks.

In reply to spenser:

Indeed, but I think I would try and have a 1:3 ratio by that point to minimise risk as much as possible.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Crib Goch when tired, with beginners would be spicy. I'd probably decline that work personally but I'm sure you'd find keen people.

In reply to jezb1:

Cruisin' for a bruisin', in my humble opinion.

Mick

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Judging by the appearance of exhaustion displayed by the average DofE 6th former, to be encountered in the hills, I would think the 3000s would be a mighty big ask for the vast majority. The roughness of the terrain, lack of water over much of the route, exposure, scope for dangerous navigational errors if the clag comes in and the fact that it'll be on a set date, whatever the weather....just putting the risk assessment together sounds like a nightmare. 

I'm all for stretching kids, but unless your lot are exceptionally fit and experienced hillwalkers, this could turn into a bit of a disaster.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

It is a very tough outing for experienced folk never mind 'beginners' and 25 is a huge number to keep tabs on. There is a lot of rocky, rough terrain and I think it would be easy to underestimate how tough it is. Crib Goch with a group that size would be a no-no for me. Maybe opt for selecting part of the route to make it manageable for all but still 'tough' enough to challenge. Completing would give a real sense of achievement rather than setting off with the view that 50% will fail as you suggest. Tiredness and nutrition/hydration will be very important. You didn't say what age the kids are nor how basically fit they might be but the younger they are the harder it might be. Good luck!

In reply to Jim Houghton:

As well as the physical side of things, I find the psychological side harder when doing N-S. All the way round from Glyder Fach the massive drop down into Nant Peris and the sheer size and steepness of the reascent to Crib Goch seem somehow far worse than Pen Yr Ole Wen (which is bad enough), especially coming much later in the journey.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I did the Welsh 3000s with my school in the 80s. 

IIRC we started with Crib Goch from Pen-y-Pass, something like 15 lads and 5 teachers, and by the end it was 2 lads and 3 teachers.

I don't think anyone had any problems with CG but most if not all were pretty experienced fell walkers. As suggested above a few training trips, possibly Snowdon Horseshoe, would be a good idea 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Jim, sorry but I do not quite understand. Good for you for taking sixth formers to North Wales but I am struggling to see why you would take them on a walk on which you assume "less than 50% will get to the end"? What happens to the sponsorship for the 50% who do not make it?

If I was doing it, I would choose a walk I was sure they would all finish - a great experience for them then

Lots of luck to you and the charity anyway

In reply to profitofdoom:

Or maybe doing the 3000s over 3 days, likely giving a much better success rate and allowing better choice of weather windows for doing Crib Goch. 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

One thing to factor in is weather, which you can't really predict in advance.

Novices would find Crib Goch enough of a challenge in perfect weather, but if it's damp or blustery or cloudy then it would not be sensible to try IMO. 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

If you're intending on doing it in the normal 24 hour period, that's a big ask for everyone, students and adults alike.

Were it my party, I'd be looking at 3 days to complete and do the Carneddau, the Glyders and the Horseshoe on individual days. More organisation, sure; also a bit safer, I think. Plus more chance of more students doing at least two of the days and therefore garnering more sponsorship cash.

Good luck.

T.

In reply to Coel Hellier:

Similarly, Tryfan and Glyder Fach can be challenging for those not accustomed to heights and rough ground, even in the best of weather.

T.

 

In reply to Jim Houghton: having done it years ago in my late 20s when I was a fraction of how fit I am now (I reckon I could do it comfortably under 6hrs currently), but still very competent, and we had perfect weather - it took us 17hours and we were several hours ahead of the rest of our group.

so in short I think this is a really bad idea. Only a truly exceptional teenager with existing Fell running and/or distance running experience will complete it.

why not do something more realistic but still challenging like the Limestone way or even (Yorkshire) 3 Peaks?

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Sorry Jim, but I agree with some of the others. Unless you're going to train thoroughly so all have a good chance of completion, you're asking for trouble and, if I'm honest, doing the kids a disservice by planning something you almost "hope" they don't achieve, so that they are manageable when you get to the hard bits. That doesn't seem to me to be the best way to plan. They might all surprise you, but get to CG, on their last legs, and have an absolute epic with 20 kids strung along the ridge papping themselves. The Glyderrau are pretty rough old hills too, and you need to descend or ascend Tryfan when pretty tired too.

I first did the Welsh 3's aged 17 with our walking club (Snowdon to Aber). Beforehand, we'd done lots of long walks in the Peak District, and also a few in the Lakes and Snowdonia. I was fit and keen, but it still took a huge amount out of me at that age, and I would not have been happy to do CG at that point. Instead, we'd walked up the Pyg track in bright moonlight (lucky!) and came down Crib Goch precisely at sunrise, an experience I have never forgotten, as the hills turned red, then gold, all around us whilst the valley was filled with darkness and mist. The last few miles over the Carneddau were also unforgettable, but for different reasons, as it was the first time I'd REALLY hurt from exercise in my life.

I actually think its a great challenge for youngsters, but its a great challenge for youngsters who are already active outdoor kids, regular walkers, and have done some scrambling before. I'd do it Snowdon first, simply so the technical standard reduces throughout the day. Its not a challenge for inexperienced folk at all.

 

 

In reply to Stig:

Really? I ask as I think the record is 4.19 timed from Snowdon summit to Foel Fras summit. If so chapeau!

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Up and down is traditional

 

In reply to Deadeye:

If you start on Snowdon and finish on Foel Fras then technically, on average, it's all downhill.......

In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Hmmm..... 10 hours in, it all felt continuously uphill to me.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I did it solo, aged 15, Easter 81.  I bivvied behind the cafe on top of Snowdon. Took me about 15 hours (with a biggish sack) but I still had to walk in the dark back from Foel Fras to Capel Curig where my tent was. I was very tired. We tried it as a small school group 6 months later, with a teacher. It was difficult to keep a reasonable pace up, with a group of about nine. Most bailed at the Devil's Kitchen or after Glyder Fach. 

Tremendous memories though. Good luck on your adventure. You will have fun!

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I think it depends what you want the group to get out of it. If you want them to have a big tough challenge then there are better options out there than the Welsh 3000s unless they are an extremely fit group- it will simply be too hard and will break them. If you want to whittle out the very best ones it'd be a good objective, or to provide a challenge that will be life-changing for some of them. If trying to raise sponsorship then the challenge doesn't have to be too hard - for the average person who has never climbed a hill, getting up Snowdon would be a big ask.

In sixth form we did the Lyke Wake Walk, which is a long way and a big challenge. Despite years of hiking experience I could not have done the Welsh 3000s at the time; it really is a tough day out with a lot of complex terrain (the Glyders in the wet is hard work) where managing a group would be very hard.

Just out of interest, have you done the 3000s yourself?

In reply to Jim Houghton:

sounds like a better way of raising money and having a quality adventure than the dreadful 3 peaks challenge that everyone else seems to do. 

If Crib Goch is the “crux” the high point at 923m can be reached from the col at the western end of the ridge. Leave the more tired, less capable ones there. 

Would need a lot of preparation and a very lightweight approach (hard with teenagers). Proper mountain adventure and the opposite of what DE has become - the perfect way to put children off ever going into the hills again. 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

It has been Tryfan not Crib Goch which was the undoing of the last attempt I made with a strong walker with little mountain experience. Although they carried on after this hill, the difference before and after was considerable. 

I would start at the north end and have really good ratios so that people can peel off in small numbers without affecting the rest of the group either in terms of speed or motivation of the rest of the group. This will be a big ask for the leaders who will need to know this is not their challenge. 

Ascending Crib Goch, I think, with the less experienced is more challenging that descent - others may disagree. 

This is a big challenge - are your participants already quite hill fit? I might be tempted to do a couple of training weekends to weed out the people that won't really enjoy it. For those that do it it will be an experience to remember for a long time. 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I can't find your other post on this but are you hoping to do the whole thing in 24 hours?

I did it in my 40s with my regular climbing buddy when we were both at the height of our mountain fitness. We did it over two days, starting at Pen y Pass and camping somewhere near the top of the Devil's Kitchen then dropping our kit at Ogwen YHA for a lightweight second day on the Carneddau. We had perfect conditions and were able to get a move on but I'd have thought that a novice would find it tough even over two days. 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I'm just wondering, who looks after the drop outs. Theyd presumably need guiding down and taking to a rendezvous point. Not having done the route myself but parts of it, thats not going to be straightforward. Whats your guide to pupil ratio going to be?

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

A more serious reply.

I wouldn't go N to S as this leaves the section requiring the most sure-footedness until the end, when folk are tired and concentration low.  That is the time for easy tracks and whalebacks.

However, if you throw in CG at the start, you need to provide safety and appropriate ratios.

However, the really sticky sections on CG are short so it is possible to shuttle people along.

I would start at Pen y Pas and resign yourself to spending a lot of time getting to Snowdon.  For many that will be enough - and an accomplishment in itself.  A consolation might be to complete the horseshoe.

Others can go onto the Glyders section and down to Ogwen cottage.  There you can take stock and a few hardy souls can do the final section which is endurance rather than scrambling.

Have *you* done it?  Are you sure you can?  It's a long grind at the end.

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

This sounds very troubling to me. I wonder why you are setting up a challenge knowing/hoping that 50% will not complete, when instead you could set up something that they can all do - perhaps with a couple of optonal short cuts built in so that they can all get to the end. What are the memories and the learning you want them all to take away? 

Do your sixth-formers know what they are taking on? Are the less fit ones sufficiently knowledgeable about the mountains and about fitness etc to stay cheerful after dropping out? Do their parents understand the nature of the challenge? I for example have a large and reasonably fit 18-year-old son who I know (from experience) could not do this, and I would tell him so if his school proposed it. But how many parents know about the Welsh 3000s?

Sorry to be negative. It is great to take kids out in the hills and I wish I had had that as a teenager. But why not set off with 25 eager kids and finish with 25 elated kids who will go back for more?

In reply to BusyLizzie:

 

whilst I agree with the general sentiment the the Welsh 3ks is too hard for a general school party, I don't agree with this idea that a challenge is something they can all do.

if they all manage it then it ain't really a challenge

In reply to TheGeneralist:

Ok fair enough - a challenge that they all have a good chance of managing. For big family group walks we build in short cuts for those who want them; all can have a hard day at different levels and all are challenged. 

Alternatively, be open with the kids and say half of you won't  make it. What I think is unhelpful for this age group is something designed for them not to complete - unless they understand and want that.

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Can't say I'm overly familiar with N Wales, but I have done all the Welsh 3000's (not in one trip), and am an ML and DoEA Expedition Assessor who has been taking teenagers out in the Highlands for nearly 30 years - I wouldn't do what you are planning. The suggestion of 2 to 3 days seems more sensible. On my one and only traverse of Crib Goch I'd been enticed out by a forecast that turned out to be completely wrong and was faced with high winds, thick clag and driving rain. The only other people on the ridge that day (in July, which shows you how unappealing the weather was, even if it was over 20 years ago) were two lads of about 15/16. One had "climbed" Snowdon via the Llanberis path once before, the other had never been on a mountain in his life. I came across them just as realisation was dawning that maybe they'd bitten off more than they could chew. I gladly took them under my wing and guided them up to the summit where the father of one, having come up on the train, was waiting to take them back down. I did try to explain to him that the lads had a potentially narrow escape, but I don't think he quite understood.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I have done the 3000s in 13.5hrs and found it very tiring.  Particularly as there are few sources of water and so I did a lot of it dehydrated.  I'm a lot tougher than almost all 6th form students I would suspect that under your plan non will succeed.

In reply to Deadeye:

I hate to quibble to be accurate it is down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up

In reply to profitofdoom:

Wrong.  Wrong, wrong, wrong.

It's up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down up down 

In reply to Deadeye:

Errrrrrrr may I respectfully submit and suggest that I was talking about the summit to summit notion..... hate to quibble

In reply to profitofdoom:

Why would anyone want to do all that work and not have done it properly?

In reply to Jim Houghton:

I arranged the 3000s a few years ago for some fit people from my work and took the decision after leaving Nant Peris to stretch it out over two days. Day one was Crib Goch to Milestone buttress lay-bys after Tryfan and then the remainder of the route on day two. This worked well and far more people completed and enjoyed it than would have if I had turned it into a death march. It also allowed two of the group that hadn't enjoyed Crib Goch during training to use the Pyg track to loop around and meet us on Crib y Ddysgl

Even the though the group were fit and we had a driver meet us at Nant Peris and Ogwen it turned out to be one of the hottest days of the year, so having a contingency plan payed off.

In reply to Jim Houghton:

Done this twice Snowdon > Foel Fras.

Make no mistake doing this in one day is tough. On both occasions it took c17 hrs and was helped by a friend with a rusac full of drinks and a vehicle. 

I’m a ML and was once leading a midsummer solstice walk over the Carneddau. We bumped into Ogwen MRT coming to the midnight aid of a group who ran out of enthusiasm near Llewelyn. 

How about a “Snowdon to the sea?” Down the pyg, over at Bwlch Tryfan etc. Still a stiff challenge.... But planning for a >50% drop out rate isn’t good for morale etc. 

 

In reply to Jim Houghton:

How about instead of getting the group to do the whole route, do the route in relay stages, so break it down into 3 or 4 sections and put the right pupils on the hills most suitable, you would probably have a higher completion rate as for the entire 'team' as a whole and a more manageable group size too as they'd be split into their relay sections. You could issue a cirtificate too which would be a good reminder of the experience.

If you planned 2 training walk's designed to work out their strengths, but instead of going straight into the Snowdon Horshoe, have an intro into Grade 1 scambling on the Llech Ddu Spur, its exposed enough for those to know if its for them or not, but not too scary like Crib Goch; then introduce them to the Snowdon Horseshoe.

From that experience work out their strengths in terms of being able to a) deal with exposure and b) having the strength to walk a fair distance over multiple accents but where exposure was less. Like a lesser exposed section being from Pen yr Ole Wen to Foel Fras (if following the Cambrian Way up Pen yr Ole Wen was the lesser exposed option for that section).

You could then put your head for heights pupils on Tryfan, then put your other pupils on the Snowdon horseshoe. They [The Snowdon Horseshoe team] would have already had a pre-recce of the route from the training day so they would know what was coming. 3 sections sounds more do-able as you'd have the A5 at Ogwen and the A4086 in the Nant Peris Pass.

It would need a bit more planning as you'd need to drive a round a bit more ferrying the groups around but it would be safer and more achievable.  It’s just a thought. Good luck with it all.

 Jason