UKH

If any walkers/cyclists/riders are familiar with Thwaite Lane between Clapham and Austwick in the Yorkshire Dales (YDNP), there is a planning application due for decision shortly to use this lane for logging vehicles to go before YDNP (decision in the next week or so, so time is of the essence).

Location: http://streetmap.co.uk/map?X=376284&Y=469189&A=Y&Z=115

There is a petition about this: https://www.change.org/p/yorkshire-dales-national-park-authority-no-to-logg... which you might like to sign.

Planning application: https://planning.agileapplications.co.uk/yorkshiredales/application-details...

YDNP planning: planning@yorkshiredales.org.uk . reference is: C/18/146E

This is applicable to walkers, cyclists and horse-riders.  The route is also part of the Pennine Bridleway.  I had a quick search of the forums here to see if this had been posted about already and found nothing (and don't recall seeing anything) so hope it's OK to post.

Thanks for bringing that one to our attention. I’d also flag that it is of definite concern to climbers too: the lovely Robin Proctors will be much less peaceful when there’s a logging site down there and wagons passing underneath it!

This has got to be one of the most absurd proposals I’ve seen for quite a long time in terms of community impact. Presumably taking wood from near the Clapham end but, not being able to go down through the old tunnels to Clapham, taking it out down Town Head through Austwick instead. Crazy!!

As somebody who’s spent a few years running/biking/climbing in these parts and lived in the Settle area for a number of years, I’d really encourage people to sign this one - it really is a totally inappropriate proposal!

Presumably because they can't get under Encombe  bridg. However they could build a new track through estate property perhaps? 

It's odd how these things even go before public consultation, there are established guidelines for forest road construction, covering size, drainage, environmental impact, and so on. It should just be left to the technical experts to deal with, site visit  check plans etc. . If the uk wants a long term sustainable forest industry, it needs forest access. 

It does however affect a publically funded National Tral and right of way within a National Park so needs public scrutiny

Good call.  And apologies: didn't mean to not include climbers, just I'm not a climber (more cyclist and runner and walker) and the presence of the said climbing spot in the affected area wasn't on my radar, so glad you pointed it out

I wonder how many people sign the petition  without looking at the planning docs. The petition is one page, a couple of clicks and a couple of paragraphs . 

The planning app. Is multiple separate pdfs and a nightmare on a mobile device. I couldn't say if it's a good or a bad application for that reason, but if you are going to sign a petition, there should at least be some effort to understand the issues

And on a related issue, is this once again a failure to appreciate forestry timescales? If you plant trees, at some point you'll need the infrastructure to cut them down and remove them, even if it's half a century down the line

They probably don't want to pee off their near neighbours in Clapham so do it instead to Austwick. If it's the trees around Clapdale then by far and away the shortest route out is a new track down through their own fields. But of course it's far cheaper to use a route that's already there and 'improve' it. If they were being environmentally friendly they'd drag the logs out by horse.

Right of way... is there anything to suggest the right of way is being permanently closed? 

I'm guessing you read the application? The track and turning area isn't for felling, harvesters and forwarders don't need roads, it's for the trucks collecting. Horses are OK dragging a few bits out, but their stacking skills need improving.

The proposals will resurface, widen and reprofile what is a currently a popular traffic free off road lane.  Far better I would have thought to upgrade/extend one of their existing forestry tracks through their land a short distance to the road E of Clapham 

I'm sure they aren't doing it because the other road is a cheaper or a better option, there could be issues to do with drainage, soil type, gradient etc.. or even location of turning point and log piles, as it reduces driving distance overall and fuel costs. It will of course look heavily landscaped at first, but within 5 years everything will have grassed over.

I recently finished riding the Great North Trail (which includes the Pennine Bridleway).

A huge amount of the route shares forest roads with logging vehicles, it is definitely possible for cyclists and walkers to coexist with them, however it needs to allow for people to get off the track at any point on the route which this application does not really allow for. This could be achieved by moving the wall back on one side by a metre or so (or adding passing places).

We need to be careful about deciding to build new things just because we don't like having to occasionally share a track with some lorries, the more stuff we build the more CO2 is produced. If the wall can be moved with less CO2 produced I would encourage that option. The application is for no more than 40 wagon loads over the course of several months each year.

Its usually fairly quiet, traffic wise, but is it a bridleway or some other grade of unsurfaced road?

I will have to look at a map or any signs next time I climb there.

Of more interest to climbers may be temporary or permanent parking restrictions on the narrow cross roads to the East end where most climbers park for Norber/Robin Proctor. 

You guessed right. Or are you just being a smart alec?

So?

As I've said, the shortest route is a pretty straight line south through their fields downhill to a tarmacked road. Their statement suggests only a relatively small amount of timber. They could knock a few (of their own) drystone walls down, lay a temporary roadway down and cause far less disruption and damage to Long and Thwaite Lanes plus the folks of Austwick. I have caved, walked and climbed around there since 1976. Have you ever actually set eyes on the place?

Both lanes are bridleways. They were being hammered by 4wds and trailbikes before TRO's were applied and the law clarified their status.

Would you be happy leaving a car there wondering if a truckload of big logs was heading that way?

Yes and I work in the forest, I've put in tracks before. It's not always so simple. A well made track will last a century, with good drainage, solid base, grass will grow within a year and everyone is happy. A temporary botch will see ruts, stuck trucks, grasslands damaged, wash out in heavy rains and end up unusable by everyone. Trees grow slowly and folk plan by the decade, not a quick hit for just this winter's extraction, it's better done properly, permanently. 

As for right of ways, it's not directly related, but the whole uk land access system needs modernising as it all stems from literally two centuries ago, bridleways etc. In an era before motor vehicles and leisure time. 

Edit. I used to live in wensleydale and would use the old tracks to come over via Hawes, semerwater etc..  down to attamire, Austwick, Clapham.. then either just cafe or crag and cycle back. Or the track up from Kilnsey towards Malham. Ran or cycled them all at one time or another.

If you know the area you'll be aware then that forestry lorries are simply not going to fit through Austwick most of the time, it's difficult enough getting a van through. The estate could quite easily use Clapdale Drive to extract the timber if they are happy upgrading existing tracks but I suspect that wouldn't suit as it would interfere with their paid as you walk "nature trail", where if you are lucky you could spot a pheasant being blasted out of the sky on one of their "nature", days and of course it would also pass close to the hall with the paying holiday cottage visitors and through their private village, much better to send it through Austwick, past a school, along roads with no passing places and through the village with cars parked both sides permanently.

That's before you even start talking about the fact if you are walking along Thwaite Lane when a lorry is on it's way you'll have no where to get out of the way and there is no way a lorry will be able to turn down into Austwick without considerable road improvements being made. (Oh and definitely no parking available anymore for Robin Procters.)

Rights of way law is definitely sometimes archaic but mostly stems from 1949 and has been refined for leisure/recreational use ever since. However, there is a much more recent presumption against creating new vehicle rights, outside of the sealed road system, brought in by the Natural Environment and Rural Communities Act 2006. 

I'm not fundamentally opposed to the idea of the track being used for timber lorries, but that lane (specifically the western side of the crossroads with Townhead Lane) is the main parking spot for Robin Proctor's Scar. That gets very full as it is and, whilst cars should be squeezing in to make sure that farm vehicles etc can get through, increasing wide-load traffic down there is only going to increase the potential for problems. It adds 1km to the walk, but it's not inconceivable that people would park there for Crummackdale too since Crummackdale doesn't really have any good parking - if there were already two cars there I'd be heading to the RPS parking.

The application makes mention of widening the lane by pushing vegetation back to the wall. A chat with the BMC access rep might be useful. If we can get them to level out some more of the verge and tame the vegetation it might improve the parking situation and help prevent any future problems (I'm not suggesting they remove any trees, btw).

40 wagons, say 1 per day for a few winter months, in the low season weekdays isn't going to cause the congestion you envisage.

Plus whilst you comment about pheasants, what's the solution, over grazed hills are reforested, which longer term will require management and tracks. People complain about a Scottish estate creating a track to access shooting, a managed forest would require many miles of track. 

It's a choice folk have to make, given the speed trees grow, if they harvest today they won't be doing first thinning in the same location again for 20-30years. That's hardly frequent inconvenience. What do people think happens with forest in Scandinavia, this is such a British problem! 

It’s 40 wagons for the first few years then 20 - 30 every 4 to 7 years from then on. To be honest it’s less congestion and more the fact they simply will not fit through, if you know the village it’s a ridiculous route to take. 
I’m not unduly bothered about pheasant shooting, I’m trying to point out why the estate are unwilling to use the more sensible and logical extraction route - because it would be an inconvenience them. 
Planting trees is great but you’re quite right future planning is essential, this route is never going to be the best way either now or in the future so why not put a proper track in away from villages and if need be pheasant shoots, nature trails and holiday homes because there are only going to be more trees to be extracted in the years to come here.

I'd be staggered if they are planning a route they can't drive, yeah it's tight, but you can often get an artic into places easier than full sized rigid. 

I admit this is a crazy assumption to make but I'm going to guess that the people who drive the timber wagons around have a better idea about where they can get a timber wagon than a bunch of climbers.

We’ll I’d hope they would but the number of scraped cars from the wagons coming out of Whinlatter and Ennerdale the last few years would I’m afraid, suggest maybe they don’t! It’s more the point of why take wagons through a tiny village in the first place when other better options are available - it comes down to money, why pay for a proper job now when a crap one is cheaper?

Well, it looks like YDNPA have given it the go ahead. Not sure if there's any kind of appeal process but the inhabitants of Austwick will surely know.

They didn’t really expect any other result, they are looking to see what they can do but it doesn’t look very positive.