Snowdon benightee rescued for no good reason?

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 Chris_Mellor 07 Jan 2019

The Llanberis Mountain Rescue group 'rescued' a mountain walker who had gone up Snowdon from Llanberis to see the New Year in. It's described here - https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-46779633 -

They published his account of what happened.

Basically he took a wrong turn ten minutes from the top on the way down, found he was on rocky and risky ground and decided to stay put for the night. He had: "got adequate clothing, spare hat and gloves, hot tea and food, a storm lantern, powerful torch and a head torch. I had spare batteries and a charge pack for my mobile."

In the account he says that he'd phoned his daughter to say he was okay and didn't need assistance. Daughter phoned the Mountain Rescue anyway, who then called the walker up on Snowdon, He says: "My first contact was Rebecca who informed me what was going to happen, even though I pleaded my case that I was fine." 

"Then I got Fraser who was calmness personified. I again told him I would be fine, but he was having none of it, their first rescue of 2019 was going to be me, whether I liked it or not."

What is  going on here; 'rescuing' people against their will?

In the event he was cold and wet and done in after 3 hours and says he was glad to be rescued. He says: "They got me to a safe spot where they got me dry and changed the worst of my outer garments for warm dry clothes and issued me with heat blankets and a new head torch We then proceeded to walk down the mountain and by 8.00am they had me back to my car. I got a clean bill of health, although I was extremely cold for the next two hours. Everything turned out fine, but I was embarrassed and things could have ended far differently."

And then this: "Also, I put the rescue team at risk, I couldn't thank them enough."

Sterling chap, but quite wrong; the Rescue Team put itself at risk, ignoring his wishes. Without the benefit of hindsight should they have done so? Are they so much in love with their voluntary angel status that they'll indulge themselves whenever there's a chance?

 

 

Post edited at 13:35
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 Pedro50 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Once his daughter had phoned MR they had little choice.  

3
 Trangia 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

"Are they so much in love with their voluntary angel status that they'll indulge themselves whenever there's a chance?"

That's unfair.

I suspect that having taken into account the foul weather, their knowledge of where he was and, and their assessment of the adequacy of his protective clothing, having spoken to him they made an informed decision to go and get him. He says himself that he was cold and wet when they reached him, and they gave him dry clothing. It doesn't take long for hypothermia to set in in such circumstances, and the nature of this condition is that the victim is probably unable to make a reasonable judgement at that stage.

Well done the Mountain Rescue Team

Post edited at 13:46
1
 richprideaux 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Pedro50:

> Once his daughter had phoned MR they had little choice.  

They have a duty to assess the situation and respond appropriately - it's not a foregone conclusion that they HAVE to go out and fetch him. There is literally a form where the vulnerability of a casualty can be assessed and a decision made about if they are immediately in danger.

It is also quite possible for a casualty to refuse assistance - it's an MRT, not the Stasi. It's still essentially a mountaineering club with stretchers and morphine.

Most importantly in all of this - we weren't there. We don't know the exact situation, the information passed on or the reasoning of the responder for Llanberis MRT who deployed the team. 

 kwoods 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

If you read the guy's own account, it doesn't appear he was entirely 'rescued against his will'. Your accusation is a bit of a straw man, this is a bit of a non-thread. The guy seems quite humble about it all, really.

 Flinticus 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

My reading of the BBC article seems to indicate that he left himself exposed for 3 hrs, after moving from his sheltered spot, to a location given by the MRT :

'But they alerted rescuers, who pinpointed his location using his phone signal and advised him to meet them at a nearby location.

"There I was in the open to all the elements for the next three hours," he wrote'

Surely a time estimate could have been given so he only need move as MRT approached or even a call once there (as clearly no issues with phone signal)? The pick up location was only 10 minutes away. Maybe it was and he choose to move early?

Whatever, it was daft of him not to have some form of emergency bivi bag or storm shelter. I carry one of those even if walking on a hot summer day where the night may only last 5 hours

Post edited at 14:05
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 richprideaux 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:."

> Are they so much in love with their voluntary angel status that they'll indulge themselves whenever there's a chance?

Good people with good motivations tend to enjoy doing good things, even if at the time it's physically difficult/dangerous. Funny that.

There is another argument though about how much information should be included in a post-callout press release, how much criticism of a casualty should be implied and where the line between publicity and privacy lies. I used to be very much on one side of the fence with that, and now I'm on the other.

Teams need to have regular news items and callouts to report in order to maintain their public profile and awareness. There is a direct correlation between operational tempo and team income through donations.

 Tringa 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Looking at the end result it seems the Mountain Rescue did the right thing.

He wasn't in a good state when they found him and he could easily have deteriorated if they had done nothing.

A couple of other points are it is easy to underestimate the seriousness of your situation along with, as this bloke did, not wanting to bother the Mountain Rescue.

It is also possible to deteriorate more quickly if you are alone, even though he was cold and wet having others, from the rescue around, would help his morale. 

Dave

 

1
 Ramblin dave 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Tringa:

> A couple of other points are it is easy to underestimate the seriousness of your situation along with, as this bloke did, not wanting to bother the Mountain Rescue.

Agree with this. And assuming there wasn't snow on the ground, I wouldn't blame the MRT for concluding that someone who hasn't got the gumption to follow the Llanberis path in the dark isn't someone who you'd trust to assess that sort of situation properly either...

Post edited at 14:39
 galpinos 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

I doubt the accounts of either side tell the full story but they maybe made a decision, based on the forecast and an assessment of his current state, equipment and location,  that a rescue now, when they could guide him down under his own steam, would be a lot easier than a rescue later, in which he wold require stretchering off in poor condition.

Without full knowledge of the situation and the decision making process, it all just speculative hot air.

1
 TobyA 07 Jan 2019
In reply to richprideaux:

Somehow I just can't stop thinking about whether there was ever a stasi mountain rescue team now... I guess you got re-educated over the error of your ways after being rescued. And you probably didn't know you were going to get rescued, but it turned out that your climbing partner had for years been telling them about when you had been looking a bit shaky on the lead...

 cousin nick 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Though not MRT, I have over 25 years service as RNLI helm, and have had to deal with similar situations - person or people in a spot of bother, but they think they're OK, which in many cases they are.  However, at the time of notification (pre-call out) we may not have all the info that we would like. Therefore we can either wait and request updates from the 'casualty' on how they are dealing with the situation, or we can page the crew, head out and determine the situation ourselves. The casualty may or may not be capable of making rational decisions, or indeed may be intent on causing harm to themselves, whilst appearing rational. I have witnessed all these. I have also had to deal with 2 persons who were clearly in danger but refused to be helped and actively took steps to avoid any assistance (up until the point where their boat had sunk!).

The point I make is that it is sometimes better for rescue services to go to aid and not be needed than to trust solely in the decisions of a potential casualty, and regret it later.

N

 Simon Caldwell 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Isn't one of the possible symptoms of hypothermia that the victim doesn't realise how ill they are, believes they are in fact too warm, and so begins to remove clothing?

 hbeevers 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Between MRT and the casualty, who was best placed to assess the need for rescue?

"The rain and wind and cold had taken its toll... I was shaking like a mountain jelly and going into shock."

That'd be MRT then...

 Tom Valentine 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

Warren Harding would have made his position clear.

 marsbar 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

If I called the MRT for my elderly father who had refused to take emergency kit with him I’d expect them to go have a look.  

Some people would rather die than put people to any trouble.  

 ashtond6 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Flinticus:

Hardy makes him daft to not take a bivvy bag or shelter. I do not know a single person that takes them out, are they all daft? 

Fair enough if you want to take one for ultimate security however some people want to move fast and light, or are prepared to deal with difficult consequences.

 

14
In reply to ashtond6:

> a bivvy bag or shelter. I do not know a single person that takes them out, are they all daft? 

Alone, at night, in winter? Yes, they're all daft. 

3
 Flinticus 07 Jan 2019
In reply to ashtond6:

If he had no phone signal, on a long winter night that could make the difference between survival and death. 

From the account he does not appear to be one of your F&L gang (a lantern!), so, yes, I stand by my statement. I didn't refer to you in it. I'm aware there are vastly different levels of experience, ability and risk acceptance. 

 DancingOnRock 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

10mins down from the top puts him somewhere near Clogwyn.

Lost.

That’s really not a good place to get lost. 

For the MRT it’s probably a relatively nice stroll up the mountain. 

In reply to Flinticus:

To be fair, the account also claims he left the car in Llanberis at 10:40 and was on the summit in time for midnight.... That would be a pretty quick time on a warm summer day! 

OP Chris_Mellor 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Ramblin dave:

Good points Ramblin dave.

OP Chris_Mellor 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Simon Caldwell:

Another excellent point!

OP Chris_Mellor 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Tom Valentine:

Gem reply Tom

 

 Robert Durran 07 Jan 2019
In reply to ashtond6:

> Hardy makes him daft to not take a bivvy bag or shelter. I do not know a single person that takes them out, are they all daft? 

I always carry either a bivi bag or bothy bag summer or winter if I am not carrying a tent. It really could be a life saver if I'm caught out or injured. I would feel daft to need rescuing because I was not carrying one.

Going out on the hills equipped to survive a night if incapacitated makes total sense really.

Post edited at 21:19
 ScraggyGoat 07 Jan 2019
In reply to hbeevers:

The age old joke; 'the caz didn't initially have hypothermia, .........but they did by the time MRT finished with them'.  

 

 

 Dave the Rave 07 Jan 2019
In reply to DancingOnRock:

Or on the descent route to Pyg or Miners? I think MRT made a good decision though. 

 Dave the Rave 07 Jan 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

Yes. It’s not until it happens that you start to think what have I got in my pack. My only real close call was when I got dehydrated and cramped high up in the Fannaichs. I managed to walk out but it was close.

In reply to Chris_Mellor:

 Firstly I have no wish to denigrate   The good work of any MRT Or other similar organisation

 10 minutes from the top of Snowdon which ever side or face other than the railway could give difficult ground  

Did I read that the casualty was asked to make his way to a more visible space? To assist in locating

 It appears a strange thing having tracked the casualty by telephone  to ask them to move to another location  

Post edited at 22:31
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 ashtond6 08 Jan 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

> I always carry either a bivi bag or bothy bag summer or winter if I am not carrying a tent. It really could be a life saver if I'm caught out or injured. I would feel daft to need rescuing because I was not carrying one.

> Going out on the hills equipped to survive a night if incapacitated makes total sense really.

For a walk up the snowdon tourist path? Jesus.

17
cap'nChino 08 Jan 2019
In reply to Chris_Mellor:

All too easy for us to judge from our arm chairs without knowing the full story or hearing the potential giveaway intonation in a lost and cold person's voice. 

Fella might have been fine, but there is no guarantee he could navigate safely home at sunrise (mist, clouds, dehydration, hypothermia, cold killing batteries you name it). Situation may have required escalation to helicopters and a larger area of search and more MRT members. 

Stitch in time saves 9.

 

 

 Robert Durran 08 Jan 2019
In reply to ashtond6:

> For a walk up the snowdon tourist path? Jesus.

I personally don't find walking up Snowdon extreme enough to strip everything down to a "fast and light" style in order to improve my chances of success.

And heaven forbid that I should rely on the security given by the likely proximity of other people rather than on self sufficiency; I think a good maxim in all forms of mountaineering is to equip oneself in the same way as one would if there was no chance of assistance.

 Timmd 08 Jan 2019
In reply to Flinticus:

> My reading of the BBC article seems to indicate that he left himself exposed for 3 hrs, after moving from his sheltered spot, to a location given by the MRT :

> 'But they alerted rescuers, who pinpointed his location using his phone signal and advised him to meet them at a nearby location.

> "There I was in the open to all the elements for the next three hours," he wrote'

> Surely a time estimate could have been given so he only need move as MRT approached or even a call once there (as clearly no issues with phone signal)? The pick up location was only 10 minutes away. Maybe it was and he choose to move early?

> Whatever, it was daft of him not to have some form of emergency bivi bag or storm shelter. I carry one of those even if walking on a hot summer day where the night may only last 5 hours

''He said he told them he had "it under control and not to worry" as he planned to "wedge between two small rocks to escape the worst of the wind and rain and get any warmth I could get until it became light".''

Without knowing the protection afforded by the 2 small rocks, it's quite difficult to say whether the spot he'd chosen was much better than where he met them.

 

Post edited at 00:42
 Mick Ward 08 Jan 2019
In reply to Robert Durran:

>  I think a good maxim in all forms of mountaineering is to equip oneself in the same way as one would if there was no chance of assistance.

Absolutely.

Mick

 

 Ian W 08 Jan 2019
In reply to ashtond6:

> For a walk up the snowdon tourist path? Jesus.

In winter, overnight, alone. 

Yes, absolutely. Always.


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