Scottish gamekeeper, nice bt of community service

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 Solsbury 19 Aug 2019

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2019/aug/19/scottish-gamekeeper-who-kil...

Not sure what to say about this, generally stay clear of these topics. If someone in another field transgressed to this degree they would never work in it again. Obviously been at it for years.

Removed User 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury:

He sounds like a one man ecological disaster and a cruel bastard.

Hopefully he won't work again with the restrictions imposed upon him but obe does wonder how much his employer knew about it all.

In reply to Solsbury:

It would be nice to see custodial sentence for this repetitive wildlife crime. 

Hopefully the 225 hours community service (assuming 'looking after disabled wife' doesn't count) and the 10 months night-time curfew will lose him his job (unless for some reason his employer feels a need to support him.......)

What seems missing is the element of 'Vicarious Liability' where the employer/ directors of the syndicate should be being punished for the obvious repeated offences carried out by an employee on their behalf. 

Locking up a few rich 'game shooter' bankers / laird's would send far more of a message than locking up a 60yo gamekeeper. 

Moley 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury:

A weakness in the system not to have him actually serve a prison sentence. Think how many other offenders of assorted crimes have also got off an actual custodial sentence, and the frustration of the injured parties. 

My understanding  reading it, looks like there is a max penalty available of 6 months and if any offenders don't get sent away unless given a minimum 12 month custodial sentence, there is no chance of anyone serving jail time for these offences in Scotland? 

I think it is obvious what needs to happen and hopefully this may kick start change. I hope he will never work in that job again, no chance of him ever having a gun licence back.

 Tom Valentine 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury:

Having killed 5 mink was probably considered a mitigating circumstance.

1
 colinakmc 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury:

It seems that the Scottish Governments well intentioned bid to reduce the population of low risk offenders in jail, by a presumption of no custodial sentences of less than 12 months, has collided with the maximum sentence available to the court under the wildlife legislation (6 months). As someone else has pointed out, though, this is done in the name of the land owner and the legislation has to reflect this with an offence of causing others to undertake illegal acts, whether they be snaring, poisoning or shooting. 

Lock up a few billionaires and we’ll see a change in behaviour.

 Ridge 19 Aug 2019
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

> What seems missing is the element of 'Vicarious Liability' where the employer/ directors of the syndicate should be being punished for the obvious repeated offences carried out by an employee on their behalf. 

^  This.

Automatic jail sentences plus an unlimited fine on conviction should focus their minds.

Rigid Raider 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury:

The so-called "aristocracy" have been in hiding for a few decades now, quietly getting on with their country pursuits while hiding their loot away in any of the 20 to 30 tax havens available to them. Incidents like this are rare examples of the world of the truly wealthy coming into conflict with the world the rest of us inhabit.

 JDal 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

Prosecuting the "Landowner" is not as simple as it sounds. Some estates are owned by limited companies registered offshore, many are owned by foreign nationals (and well run in some cases) and some of these wildlife crimes take place in England on NT/NP owned land.  Good idea in theory though.

 Mike Peacock 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Ron Rees Davies:

> What seems missing is the element of 'Vicarious Liability' where the employer/ directors of the syndicate should be being punished for the obvious repeated offences carried out by an employee on their behalf. 

Vicarious liability is apparently not yet off the cards yet:

"We don’t know whether Wilson’s employer (which may be a landowner or a sporting agent) will face a charge of alleged vicarious liability"

https://raptorpersecutionscotland.wordpress.com/2019/08/19/monumentally-ina...

 stevieb 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Moley:

I'm not actually sure that prison is the preferred outcome in this sort of case. I think the Spanish fridge story had the right sort of penalty - community service, a massive fine for the individual and an even bigger fine for his employer. I would've been happy with a £1/4m fine for the estate owner

Rigid Raider 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury:

In the end nothing will change; the imperative to make money from the estate will mean land owners will continue to employ game keepers and turn a blind eye to what the keepers need to do to protect their investment. 

OP Solsbury 20 Aug 2019
In reply to Solsbury: As I said I generally don't comment on UKC on anything other than climbing as there is seldom easy answers. Community service can be very tough and intrusive so is not necessarily an easy option, if he only gets two hours a week his sentence will extend far longer than any prison sentence.

He had an employer, they presumedly chose him in part for his reputation of managing shoots, what he was doing must have been known. This is in some ways what makes it significantly different from saying transgressions in say the NHS or a private company such as the railways where generally speaking workers crimes at work would not be known about or sanctioned. 

Do shoots need licences? Take it away, I know the company will probably file for bankruptcy and the just reappear but....

I was just shocked, wow, by the sheer relentless destructive callousness of this particular crime, though there are of course plenty of others far closer to home as I know from my daily work.


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