Overcrowding in national parks

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 RX-78 20 Nov 2018

Interesting article in the guardian about overcrowding in America's parks. Not so long ago (4 years) we went around a few near Seattle, Rainer and Olympics. Crowds were not bad then, in the Olympics we hiked for hours without seeing anyone. I guess it is like over here the easily accessible and famous ones get mobbed. Like in the New Forest, the villages are crowded but head out for a bit and it's much quieter.

But are those willing to put a bit more effort in also increasing and crowding the backcountry parts as well? 

 

 

Post edited at 13:08
Medleysdad 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

Its clearly a nightmare and makes Bowness on Windermere on a Saturday in August seem positively quiet.  But make it too easy and the crowds just spread out as you say.  On the beautiful day we had last Sunday I walked for several hours in in Snowdonia National Park without seeing a soul,  Have walked from dawn to dusk in the Lake District many times without meeting anyone, save perhaps a farmer as I left the valley.  Pricing and control is the answer.  No pre-payed parking space, no entry.  we could do with that in Wasdale and Seathwaite on a few weekends in the summer!!  Whether that's politically acceptable is another matter.  Places like the Lake District have always attracted people who want to park next to a lake, get out, take a picture of a pretty view and then drive to a teashop. And who are we to say that's a bad thing?  When my elderly mother was alive I did exactly that many times and she took great pleasure and comfort in it before her Alzheimer's took complete control, as did I.  They were good days. Fortunately in this country apart from the hell that is the yorkshire and national three peaks awfulness, I have never found it hard to escape the crowds.  On a Sunday morning in January  I even had Tarn Hows completely to myself once.  But the shit problems they are having will resonate with those who have visited Loch Lomond in high season.  Some people really are disgusting aren't they.

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 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Medleysdad:

I'd like to see a substantially improved public transport service throughout the National Parks and park and rides outside, with a hefty congestion charge.  It's cars that are the main issue in the UK parks, not people.  Yeah, Snowdon is busy, but other mountains aren't.  And what's the harm in Llanberis being busy?  It brings in money and custom to improve what is really a bit of a dive.

OP RX-78 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Medleysdad:

We have gone for lovely walks in SE England and had them to ourselves for most of the time, these aren't often advertised and you may have to plan them using a map but just a few miles from London the walks can be empty.

 

Read about crowding in the Alps, but we hiked in the Sierra Nevada in Spain and again empty and quiet, even just a few miles from the crowded coast there were quiet walks with stunning views.

Post edited at 15:03
 wintertree 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

> It's cars that are the main issue in the UK parks, not people.

Agreed.  It’s not much fun going by car to some of them either.

Once the new Pothalite mine closes down in the North York Moors in 100 years, it’ll leave a lovely tunnel from Teesside into the national park, all ready for a high speed passenger transit system.

If the Boring Company in the US delivers on their plans of 10x reduced tunnelling costs, it starts to looks more feasible to run passenger tunnels in to the busiest national parks.  What a change that would be!  

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 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

What people don't realise (and I didn't until I moved south) is that the area surrounding London (sort of green belt) is very rural, much more so than say the North West.

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 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> > It's cars that are the main issue in the UK parks, not people.

> Agreed.  It’s not much fun going by car to some of them either.

> Once the new Pothalite mine closes down in the North York Moors in 100 years, it’ll leave a lovely tunnel from Teesside into the national park, all ready for a high speed passenger transit system.

> If the Boring Company in the US delivers on their plans of 10x reduced tunnelling costs, it starts to looks more feasible to run passenger tunnels in to the busiest national parks.  What a change that would be!  

That would be a big change, but even smaller ones would help.  The bus service is surprisingly good if a little poorly promoted, but it suffers the same from congestion as cars do.  But that said, sitting in the jam between Bowness and Windermere on an Easter weekend I can't help but wonder how much nicer it'd be if everyone was on a clean electric tram which would at least actually manage the 30mph for some of it absent all the non-local cars!

Post edited at 15:23
 hang_about 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

I always liked the backcountry permit system the US parks used. Within 2 days of a trailhead you need a permit. It means that even the busiest areas are quiet once you are a few miles out. Even in Yosemite there was plenty of opportunity even in the high season and it made you go to places you might not have otherwise considered.

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 rogersavery 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

 

“It’s cars that are the main issue in the UK national parks”

I live in the Peak District National Park

I used to commute to Manchester and currently commute to Sheffield - National parks have no issue with cars.

 

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 summo 20 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

Tunnels won't make any difference. You can already get a train right to the heart of the Yorkshire 3 peaks, Windermere and anywhere on the fort William line. But I guess 99.9% of visitors arrive by car, because getting to a station where they live is near impossible without hassle. 

In reply to Neil Williams:

> I'd like to see a substantially improved public transport service throughout the National Parks and park and rides outside, with a hefty congestion charge.  It's cars that are the main issue in the UK parks, not people. 

The existing buses are largely empty here in the northern Lake District. Also bear in mind that for the people around here, cars are their oxygen. Without a car each there is no life, no work.

DC

In reply to Neil Williams:

"What people don't realise (and I didn't until I moved south) is that the area surrounding London (sort of green belt) is very rural, much more so than say the North West."

SSSSHHHHHH!!!

Post edited at 16:01
 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> The existing buses are largely empty here in the northern Lake District. Also bear in mind that for the people around here, cars are their oxygen. Without a car each there is no life, no work.

 

But surely a congestion charge not applying to residents would make that better for you?

 

 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to rogersavery:

> “It’s cars that are the main issue in the UK national parks”

> I live in the Peak District National Park

> I used to commute to Manchester and currently commute to Sheffield - National parks have no issue with cars.

I'm not sure what in your post evidences that.

Have you ever tried driving around the Lakes or North Wales on a busy weekend?

pasbury 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

It is incredibly easy to escape the crowds though, a few hundred feet from roads/car parks and you're usually alone. If not you must be on a promoted national trail or something so get off that and solitude can be yours. And that's in our overcrowded island, America is bloody massive!

 rogersavery 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

Have you tried driving through Stockport on a week day morning?

Reminds me a scene out of Crocadile Dundee - “you call that a traffic jam?”

 Brown 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

Speaking as someone who moved south.

I think the country arround London whilst potentially rural and empty (which it's not) is flat and therefore totally pointless.

 StockportAl 20 Nov 2018
In reply to rogersavery:

Yes I have, down side of living in Stockport.

On the subject of public transport in NPs, while I can get a train to some areas of National Parks they rarely run when they are good for us to use. I'll give going to Ribblehead for example, if I leave my local station at about 08:40 I arrive at Ribblehead at 12:00. Miss that connection at Leeds and it's two hours later. It hasn't stopped me doing that but I have to plan the route carefully to make sure I have enough time.

The Lake District is another one, I can get to the perimeter of the park by a fairly slow journey changing at Manchester, Lancaster, Barrow and again not delivering me to where I want to get to until around midday. The local buses have been culled to the point you ca't actually use them for anything meaningful, and those that remain have had the prices jacked so much you don't want to use them. In the summer I looked at going to Wasdale for a couple of days, they train gets you the likes of Ravenglass or Seascale but from there you're on your own.

Then there's the Ogwen valley, an every 20 minute service from Bangor to Bethesda but once a day in each direction beyond there. And yes, I have used the Bangor - Bethesda bus a few times, one of the few which I'd say is good value for money. Same with the Blaenau Ffestiniog to Llandudno service which is much more frequent that the train up to there.

 wintertree 20 Nov 2018
In reply to summo:

> You can already get a train right to the heart of the Yorkshire 3 peaks, Windermere and anywhere on the fort William line. But I guess 99.9% of visitors arrive by car, because getting to a station where they live is near impossible without hassle. 

Sure, for current models of tunnel operation.  

But Boring have a very different proposed operating model - lots of small tunnels connecting more places.  So you could imagine big car parks around the periphery of a park area and passenger egress points dotted about the interior replacing the too-small car parks at the end of insufficiently sized roads. You’d still drive, just only to the periphery of the area.

Post edited at 17:18
 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Brown:

> Speaking as someone who moved south.

> I think the country arround London whilst potentially rural and empty (which it's not) is flat and therefore totally pointless.


It's not mountainous, but the Chilterns, say, are not "flat".

 Ramblin dave 20 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> But Boring have a very different proposed operating model - lots of small tunnels connecting more places.  So you could imagine big car parks around the periphery of a park area and passenger egress points dotted about the interior replacing the too-small car parks at the end of insufficiently sized roads. You’d still drive, just only to the periphery of the area.

Wouldn't you get a largely similar effect with a well designed and well funded bus network on the existing roads (and probably congestion charging or inbound flow control or something to divert people onto it...)

 

Post edited at 17:46
 wintertree 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Ramblin dave:

> Wouldn't you get a largely similar effect with a well designed and well funded bus network on the existing roads (and probably congestion charging or inbound flow control or something to divert people onto it...)

Well, apart from the presence of busses on the roads.  Noisy, currently filthy polluting, too large for many NP roads, to big for many villages in NPs, congestion causing monsters.

Tunnels would also be good in snow etc.  Roll on the science fiction future.  Doubt we’ll see it in national parks in my lifetime  

 toad 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

It’s the old problem of us deciding to call some AONB’s “national parks” because that’s what they have abroad, even though “our” parks are fundamentally different in their establishment and management to the ones in the US. This article describes the problems faced by the high profile American NP’s, some of which resonate with the British experience, but they are not the same, and whatever solutions the US comes up with are unlikely to be applicable here, at least not In a democracy ( we could make some really progress in a dictatorship as we could move the local populations around with impunity and address the problems with farming)

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OP RX-78 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Brown:

Don't know about that, I am training for a run in the peaks and running around the north downs I easily make up the vertical ascent necessary, whilst seeing only a few people. 

So not totally useless.

 Neil Williams 20 Nov 2018
In reply to wintertree:

> Well, apart from the presence of busses on the roads.  Noisy, currently filthy polluting, too large for many NP roads, to big for many villages in NPs, congestion causing monsters.

Electric buses, which are increasingly feasible (my local route is full electric and has been for a few years now), cross off at least half of those issues.  And would provide a massive selling point for a congestion charge.  EVs allowed, but no ICEs?

 

 summo 20 Nov 2018
In reply to toad:

Totally agree. I bet there are more people living in the national parks of northern England, than all the parks added together in the USA. They are generally true natural wilderness areas in the usa, ours are man made playgrounds for the predominately middle class, weekend retreats for those with the spare cash and time. 

In reply to RX-78:

I live on the edge of the Brecon Beacons NP and it really is staggering how many people trudge up Pen y Fan from Storey Arms yet if you drive around to the NE of the mountain you can ascend via Cribyn and not see a soul until you cross over to PYF - not that I ever do that much but I'm often in the area and astounded by the lack of imagination shown by so many.

 wintertree 20 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

> Electric buses, which are increasingly feasible (my local route is full electric and has been for a few years now), cross off at least half of those issues.  And would provide a massive selling point for a congestion charge.  EVs allowed, but no ICEs?

It’s a start isn’t it. Still if you want to get people to leave their cars outside the parks, you have a lot of roads deeply unsuited to busses.  At least an EV bus isn’t going to have a problem getting the right gear for the road up to Walna Scar carpark... 

Wiley Coyote2 20 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

There seems to be a lot of  well-intentioned greenery  here but it  reads like a disaster for climbers. Banning cars sounds great but how would the average crag rat cope, given the amount of gear needed for a weekend's camping and climbing in,  for example,  the Lakes, perhaps with a bit of MTB thrown in? Fancy lugging all that plus food on a bus from some park and ride car park off the M6? And don't even think about taking the kids. They need twice as much gear and can carry hardly any of it themselves.

Or how would you get to the crags?  Raven, Langdale, White Ghyll, Pavey, or Borrowdale -  probably no problem because of tourist buses but what about the more far flung ones? Or how about a last minute change of plan  to go looking for some dry rock?  As an example of how tricky it is to provide climber-friendly public transport take a look at Kalymnos, easily the most climber-friendly place I have ever been. How hard can it be there? All those crags, one after the other in  a line from Massouri to Emborios all on one road. Bus routes don't  get much simpler than that. It must be a piece of cake, eh?  Except it obviously isn't. Even with good intentions and everything in their favour it's a nightmare, especially getting back  once the sun hits the crags around noon and no  bus not till 4pm.

Travel in the Lakes may be a nightmare at the moment but it still seems a lot better than what is being suggested here.

 

1
In reply to Neil Williams:

> But surely a congestion charge not applying to residents would make that better for you?

We (and others) pay too many taxes already - direct and indirect. You can tax everything to extinction and no benefit accrues except to quangos and bureaucracies. Cars are oxygen, the most efficient machine ever invented by man.

Some would say tourism kills everything it touches. Nevertheless, maybe this National Park should still be free at the point of use, rather than a cash generation machine. Certainly the local aborigines should not pay anything to inhabit their homelands.

DC

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 Doug 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

There are some examples of possible solutions in the Alps. One I know well is the Val Clarée where the narrow road beyond Nevache is closed to the public at about 8 during the busiest couple of months of the summer but there is a very regular bus service from Nevache to the end of the road (some 10 km each way). Frequency varies with time of day but never more than a 30 minute wait & mostly much less, costs 1 or 2 Euros (& the car park is free).  There are similar systems elsewhere in the Alps & the Pyrenees.

 Bulls Crack 21 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

People can feed in their views to the current National Parks review landscapes consultation https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/landscapes-review-national-park...

 

 

 DaveHK 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Dave Cumberland:

> Some would say tourism kills everything it touches. 

A phrase I have heard is that tourism is like fire, you can cook your dinner on it but it can also burn your house down.

 

Post edited at 07:01
 summo 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

> There seems to be a lot of  well-intentioned greenery  here but it  reads like a disaster for climbers.

What is the priority though?

> given the amount of gear needed for a weekend's camping and climbing in

A climbing pair should be quite capable of getting it into a rucksack each. If not you are definitely taking too much

> Or how would you get to the crags?  Raven, Langdale, White Ghyll, Pavey, or Borrowdale -  probably no problem because of tourist buses but what about the more far flung ones?

What far flung lakes crags? Is anywhere 2 to 3 hrs walk from a large-ish road? Wouldn't that make the remote locations ever more worth a visit. 

> Or how about a last minute change of plan  to go looking for some dry rock? 

Tough. That's life I'm sure we'd live. 

> As an example of how tricky it is to provide climber-friendly public transport 

Again..  what's the priority?  To avoid destroying the very places we visit we perhaps need to compromise a little on convenience etc. 

 

2
 richprideaux 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Bulls Crack:

> People can feed in their views to the current National Parks review landscapes consultation https://www.gov.uk/government/consultations/landscapes-review-national-park...

If it's like previous public consultations then they will listen carefully then do exactly what the local farmers and rich retirees will want. And then maybe throw in a new zipline.

 Bulls Crack 21 Nov 2018
In reply to richprideaux:

I couldn't possibly say minister

 Martin Hore 21 Nov 2018
In reply to RX-78:

Just back from a trip around the National Parks in the US South-West - Yosemite, Grand Canyon, Zion, Bryce etc. Yes, they are very different from ours. Virtually no-one lives permanently in them (apart from Park employees), they are very well set up for visitors in cars who want to "see" the park without walking more than 50m from their car, (the more popular parks exclude cars with brilliantly organised free park and ride schemes), there are manicured short walking trails for day-trippers (sometimes quite crowded) but once off the beaten track (all overnight hikes require permits) you see very few people at all. 

I'm not sure we can learn much from the US experience here. Our National Parks are not the same beast at all.

Martin

Wiley Coyote2 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Doug:

> There are some examples of possible solutions in the Alps. One I know well is the Val Clarée where the narrow road beyond Nevache is closed to the public at about 8 during the busiest couple of months of the summer but there is a very regular bus service from Nevache to the end of the road (some 10 km each way). Frequency varies with time of day but never more than a 30 minute wait & mostly much less, costs 1 or 2 Euros (& the car park is free).  There are similar systems elsewhere in the Alps & the Pyrenees.

I'm sure that's true. Zion NP in the states has a brilliant shuttle bus system but given  the UK's attitude to public transport or even public services generally do you really think that is going to happen here?

 Neil Williams 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

> I'm sure that's true. Zion NP in the states has a brilliant shuttle bus system but given  the UK's attitude to public transport or even public services generally do you really think that is going to happen here?

Public transport use in cities where it is genuinely good (London, Edinburgh and Nottingham are examples - people whine about the Tube but most other British cities would give their eye teeth for it) is quite high, so yes, I believe it could be.

Using Snowdonia as an example, the long-running "Snowdon Sherpa" setup is on paper quite good - but it *looks* awful, being done on the cheap using knackered old buses run by disreputable companies (the last one, Express Motors, closed after being uncovered for fraud, and one of the directors has been prosecuted for it).  Snowdonia is in fact incredibly easy to serve by bus as there are very few roads they would need to run along - far easier than the Lakes, FWIW.  But if you look at somewhere like Llangollen, you have rusting bus stops along the main street with no shelter, map or timetable - can you blame people for not using them?  They probably don't even know they could get one up Pen y Pass rather than drive.

The other issue is that the main "use case" for the UK's national parks is a weekend away - yet the local public transport doesn't run late enough in most cases for you to get there after work on a Friday, nor early enough to get there Saturday morning for a proper hill day.  For instance, the last departure down the Conwy Valley to Betws-y-Coed (a logical connection point for buses to places like the Ogwen Valley if there were any) is 1923.  Want to get there from London?  1610 is the last train you can get, and is the only one on the route with peak restrictions so will cost a packet.  Manchester's barely better at 1650.  So really unless you take a half-day off it's non-viable, so you'll drive.  At the other end of the logical route, Bangor, the bus station is miles away from the railway station and stinks of wee, and no attempt is made to match bus times to train times.  It's just not a sales pitch.

Post edited at 14:39
Wiley Coyote2 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Martin Hore:

> I'm not sure we can learn much from the US experience here. Our National Parks are not the same beast at all.

Exactly. Tens of thousands of people live in our NPs, each park is accessed by perhaps of hundreds of roads, large and small that cannot be gated off willy nilly. Plus it is not just residents who need access. Again taking the Lakes as an example, I wonder how many non-resident vehicles criss cross it every day to service the towns and industries of West Cumbria?

 

 Neil Williams 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Wiley Coyote2:

> Exactly. Tens of thousands of people live in our NPs, each park is accessed by perhaps of hundreds of roads, large and small that cannot be gated off willy nilly. Plus it is not just residents who need access. Again taking the Lakes as an example, I wonder how many non-resident vehicles criss cross it every day to service the towns and industries of West Cumbria?

Could as easily be written as follows.  A way would be found to make it work.

"Exactly. Well over a million people live in London, it is accessed by perhaps hundreds if not over a thousand roads, large and small that cannot be gated off willy nilly. Plus it is not just residents who need access. Again taking London as an example, I wonder how many non-resident vehicles criss cross it every day to service the towns and industries of the South East of England?"

That was viable.

Wiley Coyote2 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

I'm not sure which way you are arguing there Neil. By the end of your post you made  public transport use sound pretty unappealling. To put all that right would undoubtedly cost a packet. At a time when hospitals can't cope, teachers are being made redundant and the police have stopped investigating many crimes for lack of manpower I cannot see any govt, national or local, putting in the kind of money you are talking about to run a service that would be little used outside the main holiday season and dry weekends to make life easier for a few trippers. They have clearly not do it so far - in fact many rural bus routes are disappearing because subsidies are being cut. As the same time most economists, including the govt's own, reckon we are about to get poorer  with a lower tax take so don't expect a public transport spending spree any time soon, I'd say.

As you rightly point out, public transport works best in cities where  there are lots of people to use it on a daily basis and big  financial disincentives not to use private cars. Out in the wilds, for want of better expression, the wheels start to fall off.

Wiley Coyote2 21 Nov 2018
In reply to Neil Williams:

I don't think your comparison with London  really works.  As I understand it the idea here is to get cars out of the NPs not just to make them pay through the nose for going in. Anyone who visits London knows full well  that traffic there is still horrendous. Granted, probably not as horrendous as it would be without the congestion charge (I presume that's so  - I have no figures but it seems like it ought to be true) but nobody could pretend traffic is still not a massive problem there, even with the UK's most lavish public transport system.


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