UKH

Hey guys, me and a few mates are looking at trying to get up to Scotland this winter, we're all experienced summer hillwalkers, but have very little experience winter hillwalking in Scotland. I've taken a look at courses, and they're depressingly expensive, especially as we're really limited with the number of providers that take under 18s.

Anyone got any advice for how to get into it on the cheap?

Cheers all!

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Where are you based? And how old are the under 18s?

In reply to McHeath:

London based sadly. Think our youngest is 16. 

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

You could buy a skills book and learn things yourself. This one is pretty good

https://www.mountain-training.org/publications/winter-skills

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Do some winter walking in England and Wales, useful experience without so much travel hassle.

Be prepared to turn back or shorten the route as a group if any one person is uncomfortable with conditions. Think about alternatives in advance.

Our attitude was go out regardless of weather (NOT regardless of avalanche risk) and sometimes turn back.

Don't be young, male and gung-ho, but not all of those are in your control!

Buy a book 2nd hand online for £3 or £4.

Mountaincraft and Leadership: A Handbook for Mountaineers and Hillwalking Leaders in the British Isles
Book by Eric Langmuir

In reply to Gawyllie:

Cheers for the recommendation 

In reply to elsewhere: Cheers, some sound advice there. It’s starting to look like the best bet. Yeah it would be brilliant to get some practice in in England and Wales.

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Some good advice already. It's also worth pointing you to the volumes of winter skills info on UKHillwalking. A few examples:

Expert tips: winter walking https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/expert_tips/winter_wal...

Packing for winter hillwalking https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/ukc_gear_guide_-_suppo...

Winter gloves explained https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/ukc_gear_guide_-_suppo...

Be avalanche aware this winter https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/skills/be_avalanche_aw...

Navigating in the dark https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/skills/tips_and_tricks...

Winter navigation https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/navigation_in_winter-7183

Winter walker's MOT https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/skills/winter_walkers_...

How to drive in winter https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/how_to_drive_in_winter-7993

Avalanche basics 1 https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/avalanche_safety/avala...

Avalanche basics 2 https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/avalanche_safety/avala...

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

And a couple more specifically on the winter hardware:

Walking with an axe https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/essential_winter_skills_walki...

Ice axe self arrest https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/series/skills/essential_winte...

Walking in crampons https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/essential_winter_skills_walki...

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

I cannot recommend enough the BMC Winter Skills youtube series:

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLTodUXkQjZwxa2g6yfV21wLRXffbAdFxT

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

You could consider joining a mountaineering/walking club. For example Ibex (https://www.ibexmc.org.uk/) do trips to Scotland. That way you could draw on the skills of experienced members, and once you start going independently you can ask people to cast an eye over your plans or comment on weather forecasts.

In reply to tlouth7:

Ordinarily I'd agree, but not so many clubs will take under 18s.

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

The advice of getting winter Hill days in England and Wales is good.   Getting your personal layering sussed, efficient prompt starts, nutrition and some basic map work in adverse conditions on less unforgiving hills is all stuff that is useful prior to getting into anything too technical.

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

The Cadet Centre for Adventurous Training run courses doing this kind of thing, they were about £40 for the week 10 years ago, I greatly enjoyed the rest of the stuff involved in CCF too (if your school doesn't have one check out the ACF/ SCC/ Air Cadets).

If you don't get anything sorted before you turn 18 there are the Conville Winter Skills courses which are likely very good (I did an Alpine focused one which was great).

It's worth remembering that where booking a private course you're having to pay for the instructor's time, travel, kit, taxes, qualifications and insurance etc, if you are getting instruction cheap it is either subsidised (like the examples above), or they are likely undercutting other providers as they couldn't get customers on the basis of their reputation (lack of qualifications etc).

Learning through a club is a good way to go, however the skills required to go walking in winter take a bit of time to learn and for people travelling up from London it would be a big ask for them to give up their holiday time to teach, particularly if it is good enough conditions to do an objective they are interested in.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Thanks for all the links! I'll have a good look. 

In reply to Suncream:

Just watched a few - they're fantastic. Cheers for the recommendation! 

In reply to tlouth7:

I'll take a look, cheers!

In reply to spenser:

I'll have a good look at this. Cheers!

In reply to spenser:

I'll take a look, cheers.
Yeah - the cost of the instructors is justifiably expensive, it's so hard and expensive to get the qualifications in the first place, and the running costs are really high too. 

In reply to elsewhere:

For a group of young males (I'm making a terrible assumption here...), this might be the hardest thing to learn. Peer pressure and bravado are very strong. But it's a sign of greater maturity and inner strength to get over those, and make the right decision. I'd suggest it's something you talk about in advance, and agree to be open with each other about your concerns, and never to belittle or mock those concerns.

If some of you are over 18, and some aren't, you may need to think about who is responsible for the group.

In reply to captain paranoia:

Some sound advice there. I can fully see what you're saying, and I wouldn't be surprised if the decision about if to turn around caused a bit of tension in the group, so talking about it in advance is definitely wise. 

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

You could think of it as a way to learn risk management (an essential skill); if someone is concerned, talk it over as a group, find out what the concern is, and look at the risks as objectively as you can, and if there is something you can do to reduce the risk. You might put crampons on; you might change route, etc. or you might turn back.

For novices, this can be instructive, even in cases where noone seems concerned; e.g. crossing a stream, what things should you consider as part of the dynamic risk assessment process: depth, speed, type of stream bed, exit, what might happen if you slip or fall, etc? Each walk becomes a self-taught lesson. You need to be careful you don't talk yourselves into bad practice, but some sensible thinking, combined with decent books and videos should avoid that.

The other thing to watch out for is hypothermia; keep an eye on each other, and look for the 'umbles'; stumbles, mumbles and fumbles that indicate impaired consciousness due to the effects of cold.

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

There is some potential for subsidised training for young people in the form of trusts that have been set up help, I'm not sure where they stand for under 18s, but I can find out if you want?

 

In reply to captain paranoia:

Sounds like a really good system. Cheers for the advice!

In reply to Rich W Parker:

That would be fantastic if it’s not too much trouble! Cheers!

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

I'm really impressed with this thread, which is showing the best of UKC. I was going to reply in my first answer (then thought: no, not helpful): you're going to get three sorts of replies: 1. Back in t'day, we just got out there and did it. 2. Under 18 and no experience? You're all going to die. 3. Helpful answers.

So pleased to see that it's 100% #3 up until now. It can become a deadly serious game; good luck, be cautious in all respects, and have fun! 

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

All good links, curious that they are all from UKhillwalking. Many of these skills (all?) are just as applicable for winter climbers. Maybe worth putting a link page on UKC through to these great articles?

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Really good thread. Nobody has mentioned the winter skills courses offered by Mountaineering Scotland, at a cost of £45 for a day course out of Aviemore or (I think) £120 for a weekend from Mill Cottage.

Youd probably have to join MS but for your annual sub you’d get access to huts too.

In reply to colinakmc:

I'll take a look, they sound great!

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Hi Dan - is there an area on UKC/UKH where articles on a specific important topic (such as these) are collated for posterity? Aware things may drop out of forum visibility, and search terms in the google-provided bar on the homepage may not cover all relevant articles.

In reply to Nic Barber:

Hi Nic

You'll find everything skill related in the articles section, listed under Hill Skills (UKH) https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/skills/

or Climbing Skills (UKC) https://www.ukclimbing.com/articles/skills/

If you scroll down, it's possible to filter the results by category (winter walking, trad, scrambling etc)

In reply to Rich W Parker:

I suspect the <18 may be an issue. I know the Conville courses only run for 18-30s. 

Probably because instructors will likely not be insured to take minors out into those types of conditions at the ratios they run the courses at (or at all). 

Risk assess the trip; that should lead to having a plan to deal with issues if the arise; i.e if A happens we do B, if C happens we do D. Beats trying to sort things out in huddle when there could be two conversations going on at once and only half listening anyway.

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Have you thought about booking a day with an instructor?  That should be less than a residential course, especially when the cost is split between you.  You can learn a lot from books and videos, but things like ice-axe arrests are best learned under supervision.

In reply to Diddy:

That's a good idea - much better to know what to do in advance then trying to sort things in a bit of a panic if something goes a little wrong. 

In reply to Howard J:

I'll take a look, cheers!

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Definitely worth looking into joining a group:

outdoor activity youth group

club

scouts

all good ways of learning from others and hooking up with like minded people.

In reply to Dan Bailey - UKHillwalking.com:

Hi Dan

Just read the article on driving tips in winter. All good but I reckon the bits about preparedness (keeping fueled up etc.), need an update to cover electric cars. 

Would be useful to have something addressing effect on charge retention, finding charging points etc. Not got electric myself but will possibly make the switch in the next few years. 

In reply to Flinticus:

That's a good call, but I'll need to do some research since the technology is developing so fast. I suspect this article on electric cars for climbers and hillwalkers by Es could do with being updated or replaced too:

https://www.ukhillwalking.com/articles/features/electric_cars__-_realistic_... 

In reply to elsewhere:

This is great advice but be aware how fickle conditions are, and unless you are quite flexible about when when you can go you have to be prepared for anything, including - most often - non-winter conditions. i.e. Not snowy and icy, but it can still be cold, damp, and serious.  

In reply to Max factor:

The Brecon Beacons or better still, the Black Mountains would be good places to start learning  - navigation in poor conditions and dealing with miserable weather. High enough, but few crags to fall off and no(? minimal) avalanche risk. And you can have brilliantly clear days there as well, to maintain your motivation!

In reply to Max factor:

Yep, winter conditions seem to come and to quite often! Yeah you make an excellent point, there doesn’t need to be snow on the ground for it to be very cold!

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

if you're in London, you could check out the BMC winter skills talk.

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/makewintercount

they were helpful to me when planning my first outings. 

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Someone just pointed me towards the free online talks that Plas Y Brenin is doing every Thursday for the next few weeks. This week is winter nav and there's some avalanche awareness ones coming up as well.

https://www.pyb.co.uk/events/

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Yes. Frozen, snow free days on icy man made paths, have me heading for the bracken at the side of the path.

In reply to Puma:

Brill! I'll take a look! Cheers!

In reply to pancakeandchips:

They sound great, will definitely be watching them. Cheers for the recommendation!

In reply to Oscar Dodd:

Some great advice up thread which I can't really better but thought I would share my experience of moving into winter hill walking.

By 16/17 I was a competent summer hill walker with decent navigational skills and had had a couple of rough long days out in the lakes by myself. A few winter days out on familiar fells in favourable conditions was the natural progression, I thought I knew everything I thought I would need to know.

Fast forward to going to university I remember my first winter trip to Aviemore with the uni hill walking club. It was a steep learning curve and one I'm still on to be honest.

Scottish winter days are much longer, harder, more remote and generally a bigger adventure then anything you might encounter further south. Some of my very best mountain experiences have been Scottish winter days (and nights!) but so have my most arduous, exhausting, mentally draining and humbling ones too.

Heed the advice others have given and you'll make memories to cherish. Good luck and enjoy. 

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

Being largely a Scottish hills walker I did not really appreciate the difference in remoteness between, say, North Wales and Scotland. Having had a few trips south I see it much more starkly. Even the road density is far higher in Wales. 

As for the learning curve, yeah, that's one I slip down regularly. No winter experience 20/21 and limited 19/20. Its easy lose knowledge over time if you're not getting out in winter conditions.

In reply to Kalna_kaza:

That's interesting to hear. I found the step up from backpacking and walking in Snowdonia and the Lakes in summer to Scotland in summer quite significant, especially in terms of remoteness. I can only imagine how much more of a step up it will be in winter...