Lantern for Heat in Tent

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 ImperialJohn 16 Apr 2021

I read all your responses to my previous post about a stove thank you for the advice. I have decided it is a bad idea as there just doesn't seem to be anything available or suitable that is designed for my Hilleberg Namatj 2.

I think a Finnish style log torch could work where a metal pipe puts heat into the tent from outside (but not CO) however the end of the tent would need to be a bit open for that, I'd have to avoid getting the pipe on the tent, and it is a lot of hassle and energy to do.

I've decided a candle lantern, wick lantern or pressure lantern would probably be best and they are likely to give off a bit of heat. I don't think much heat is needed to warm a tent a small amount.

Can anyone recommend any places I can find something small and lightweight?

I think if it is a candle lantern the ability to have three candles at the same time would probably be good. I could also go with beeswax which will reduce any fumes and smoke.

Wick lanterns and pressure lanterns I know very little about these other than the brief research I've just done so have no clue what to look for or if there is anything specific for camping?

I seem to remember I did see one once when I was a lot younger in the cellar of my parent's home. Must have been a passed-down 19th-century relic but for a home as opposed to camping.

Can you get lanterns where you can keep them on but there is a cover you pull up or around to focus the light or block it completely so you just have the heat?

9
 summo 16 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Or a battery powered one, solar charger.... safer in all respects. 

1
 EdS 16 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

3 tea lights in a pan. Job done

In reply to ImperialJohn:

Why do you need heat in a tent? 

Use the money/weight/volume needed for a lantern and invest in a better mat / sleeping bag. 

1
 SFM 16 Apr 2021
In reply to EdS:

> 3 tea lights in a pan. Job done

Good shout. I might try that myself next time. Saves the faff of using a candle lantern and less risk of melting anything(other than wax). 

 MonkeyPuzzle 16 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

If you're cold, cut open the belly of your tauntaun and nestle into its cavity. 

 Philip 16 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Have you tried sleeping in a hotel instead? Or asking your mum for thicker pyjamas?

🤣

1
 Neil Williams 16 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Seriously, just buy a hot water bottle.  And a better sleeping bag.  You don't want burny stuff in a burny tent.

Post edited at 23:52
1
 Billhook 17 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Like you've been told before - you want to think about the tent you are using.  Tents most UKClimbing users have are tents which were never designed to be used with open fires or stoves needing chimneys.  Nylon tents burn.  Easily - and so will you!!

Pop over to Song of the Paddle https://www.songofthepaddle.co.uk - they have a facebook page too.

 Lots of people there use tents like 'Tent Tipi'  which are made from non combustible materials and have proper vents for stove chimneys and the like.  Oh, and are toasty warm in winter.

 Jenny C 17 Apr 2021
In reply to Billhook:

Small tents get pretty warm from just body heat.

We have a smallish tent which is big enough to safely cook inside the well ventilated outer porch area. On the coldest of nights simply boiling a kettle is enough to appreciably heat the tent up and as others have said this could easily serve the dual purpose of making a hot water bottle to keep you warm through the night. 

Post edited at 08:17
 Howard J 17 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

With the type of tent you have (Hilleberg Namatj 2) I am with others in querying the need if hte objective is to provide warmth  Two people in a tent that size should generate enough warmth once zipped in, and even one person can be fairly snug. As others have already said, it's better to invest in a good sleeping bag and mat, and a hot water bottle can be improvised from a drinking bottle.  If I'm expecting it to be really cold I'll take a second bag and put one inside the other.

In a small tent there is always the risk of knocking something over, especially with 2 people inside, and especially in windy conditions which are all too common in the UK.  Apart from the risk of personal injury, if you damage your sleeping bag or mat, or worst of all the tent, you're going end up a lot colder.  In my experience, the coldest time is in the early hours of the morning. You wouldn't want to leave candles burning while you are asleep.

Candle lanterns are easily available, but the manufacturer's details show them being used outdoors, and warn against near anything that can catch fire, and also that they can produce carbon monoxide and other hazardous chemicals. The need for adequate ventilation might also partially negate the warming benefit. Of course you will get people who say they've used them safely for years, but others who've had accidents and caused damage. They do seem to be popular for adding ambience outside the tent, and with citronella candles to repel bugs.

I suggest you do a bit of googling and make up your own mind from others' experiences, but personally I would find other ways to keep warm and safer ways to provide light inside a tent. 

 Frank R. 17 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

1 litre of hot water holds (and releases, safely) nearly the same amount of heat as fully burning out one tea light candle. Still think candles are a good idea?

 deacondeacon 17 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

How about getting a sleeping bag? They're lovely and warm, and don't kill you if you knock them over by accident. 

 Frank R. 17 Apr 2021
In reply to deacondeacon:

> How about getting a sleeping bag? They're lovely and warm, and don't kill you

Unless you nearly manage to hang yourself on the hood adjusting cord while struggling to get out in a bear scare or a midnight bowel emergency like me, lol

OP ImperialJohn 18 Apr 2021
In reply to Frank R.:

I already have a really good sleeping bag and mat. Hot water bottles take up too much space and I would need three of them to match three candles. A flame will also help reduce condensation and humidity.

19
OP ImperialJohn 18 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

I often have candles burning in my home while I am asleep. I've never had any problems.

There seems to be a lot of nanny-state safety police in this forum that aren't interested in answering my specific question about lanterns. Seems pretty symptomatic of the direction the UK has been sadly heading for some time.

51
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> There seems to be a lot of nanny-state safety police in this forum that aren't interested in answering my specific question about lanterns. Seems pretty symptomatic of the direction the UK has been sadly heading for some time.

I don't see any nanny state safety police.  I see a bunch of experienced people giving you the same common-sense advice. 

 summo 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> There seems to be a lot of nanny-state safety police in this forum that aren't interested in answering my specific question about lanterns. Seems pretty symptomatic of the direction the UK has been sadly heading for some time.

No nanny state. Just a known history of folk burning in their tents or dying from carbon monoxide poisoning, long before the term nanny state was ever used. 

Whilst we'll all die eventually, scrambling in the dark for a knife whilst a molten burning tent falls on my face isn't the way I'd choose go.

 bouldery bits 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Star jumps are your friend.

Put a warm body in your sleeping bag and you'll have a warmer night.

 Dark-Cloud 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> I often have candles burning in my home while I am asleep. I've never had any problems.

> There seems to be a lot of nanny-state safety police in this forum that aren't interested in answering my specific question about lanterns. Seems pretty symptomatic of the direction the UK has been sadly heading for some time.

Man asks stupid question, man doesn’t like sensible answers, man moans at people giving sensible answers, this is the internet today in one post.

Naked flames in tents are an incredibly bad idea for the numerous reasons stated above, if you think you can come up with a solution you are happy then crack on and use it at your own risk, but whatever it is at the least it will damage your tent and at worse damage you.

 Lankyman 18 Apr 2021
In reply to tom_in_edinburgh:

> I don't see any nanny state safety police.  I see a bunch of experienced people giving you the same common-sense advice. 

Oh leave the poor man alone. If he wants to go out in a blaze of glory who are we to argue?

 angry pirate 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Use your existing water bottle as the hot water bottle.

I use a 1 litre Nalgene. Boil some water, into the bottle, in to the sleeping bag to prewarm it and toasty all night. With the added bonus that the water will be warmish in the morning so your morning brew is quicker to achieve too.

 Lankyman 18 Apr 2021
In reply to bouldery bits:

> Put a warm body in your sleeping bag and you'll have a warmer night.

And where exactly are you going to find a warm body at bedtime in the hills? Farmer won't be happy if you worry his sheep.

 Neil Williams 18 Apr 2021
In reply to angry pirate:

> Use your existing water bottle as the hot water bottle.

> I use a 1 litre Nalgene. Boil some water, into the bottle, in to the sleeping bag to prewarm it and toasty all night. With the added bonus that the water will be warmish in the morning so your morning brew is quicker to achieve too.

I was going to suggest that, I have done it with my stainless steel ones (though don't quite put fully boiling water in those, they get VERY hot).  Only problem is that as the contents of the bottle contract as they cool it can be hard to get the lid off in the morning.

 deacondeacon 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Lanterns aren't designed for the application of heating and lighting a little 1 or 2 man zipped up tent. It'll potentially kill you. It doesn't take much googling to find deaths of people in tents from flames and carbon monoxide poisoning.

If you think you know better, then don't come onto a forum whinging that the answers you get aren't the ones you wanted to hear. 

I go camping all year round with my daughter, since she was 5. She hasn't moaned about a cold nights sleep yet. The answer is that we both have good sleeping bags, and if we need a bit more warmth make a hot water bottle. 

 DaveHK 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> aren't interested in answering my specific question about lanterns. 

​​​​​​You're not going to get an answer to your question because the thing you're looking for probably doesn't exist because it's a bad idea for all the reasons already suggested...

> I often have candles burning in my home while I am asleep. I've never had any problems.

I'm guessing your home is not small and made from nylon?

Post edited at 09:21
 Trangia 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

Half fill a Sig bottle with boiling water, wrap your shirt around it (otherwise it will scald you) and put it in your sleeping bag. You'll have a nice warm night.

 DaveHK 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> Hot water bottles take up too much space and I would need three of them to match three candles. A flame will also help reduce condensation and humidity.

As others have said, they don't take up space as you can just use your water bottle. And you don't need 3 you only need one per person as you're heating your sleeping bag not the whole tent. If you want to heat your tent so that it's comfortable for sitting around then you've probably bought the wrong tent.

 VictorM 18 Apr 2021
In reply to Trangia:

In reply to ImperialJohn:

Half fill a Sig bottle with boiling water, wrap your shirt around it (otherwise it will scald you) and put it in your sleeping bag. You'll have a nice warm night.

Put the bottle inside a sock and you have the perfect heat source. Put it between your legs to heat your femoral arteries, problem solved. 

You don't need open flames inside a nylon tent. Whoever came up with that idea hasn't played with fire enough as a kid. 

All you need is a good sleeping bag, a good pad and a non-flamy heat source. 

Post edited at 11:55
 Welsh Kate 18 Apr 2021
In reply to VictorM:

> Half fill a Sig bottle with boiling water, wrap your shirt around it (otherwise it will scald you) and put it in your sleeping bag. You'll have a nice warm night.

> Put the bottle inside a sock and you have the perfect heat source. Put it between your legs to heat your femoral arteries, problem solved. 

Yes, this! Sigg in a sock is just the ticket, safe warmth

 Trangia 18 Apr 2021
In reply to VictorM:

Yes! A sock is even better

 The Lemming 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

This is the best and funniest discussion I have read in ages on the forums.

Too funny to be a troll.

 Howard J 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> I often have candles burning in my home while I am asleep. I've never had any problems.

Why on earth do you do that?  Candles are the fifth most common cause of house fires.  You may not have had any problems yet, but it only has to go wrong once. 

https://www.morganclark.co.uk/about-us/blog/uk-house-fire-statistics/#:~:te...

> There seems to be a lot of nanny-state safety police in this forum that aren't interested in answering my specific question about lanterns. Seems pretty symptomatic of the direction the UK has been sadly heading for some time.

Ok, since you apparently haven't heard of Google, these ones seem to be well-thought of:

https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=uco+candle+lantern&hvadid=80676697907471&a...

Here's a discussion (among US users).  As I pointed out earlier, whilst many advise not using them in a tent, there are others who have been using them apparently safely.  

https://forums.paddling.com/t/candle-lanterns/48646/6

This might give you food for thought:

https://www.portlandoregon.gov/fire/news/read.cfm?id=271408

For what it's worth, my view is that I can't see any benefit from using a candle lantern inside a tent that justify the risk of fire or poisoning, even if those risks are small.  Warmth and light can be provided in ways which avoid these risks completely.  But make up your own mind. You seem to be pretty set on the idea anyway, so why ask for advice if you don't want to listen to the answers?

 Jamie Wakeham 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

> A flame will also help reduce condensation

I'm not sure you understand how flames work.

Roadrunner6 18 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I'm not sure you understand how flames work.

That's brilliant. I think maybe he needs to look at what a combustion reaction is..

 Frank R. 18 Apr 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

> That's brilliant. I think maybe he needs to look at what a combustion reaction is..

"Combustion reaction"? Is that another deep nanny state conspiracy?

Post edited at 14:39
 deacondeacon 18 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

 A flame will also help reduce condensation and humidity.

Haha, no it won't (well, not until the tent is on fire anyway).

 GraB 18 Apr 2021
In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

No, the OP clearly needs to go back and learn a little basic physics.

To ImperialJohn:

There are two products of complete combustion: Carbon dioxide and water. If the combustion is incomplete (i.e. not 100% efficient - so essentially anything outside of a lab environment) then you can add in carbon and carbon monoxide. Clearly the last of these is very, very bad for you, which is why everybody is giving you the same advice. Its nothing to do with being in a nanny state. Also, water is not consumed by combustion.

As far as heat output goes, a single candle might produce something like 80W of power. A hot water bottle could kick out 80W through radiation alone, but if you put it next to your body then it will also put out power through conduction in addition to radiation. That is, a hot water bottle will do a much, much better job of keeping you warm than a candle. Which will do nothing of any consequence. Except potentially kill you.

Post edited at 14:48
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In reply to Jamie Wakeham:

> I'm not sure you understand how flames work.

I'm sure he doesn't understand...

 Ridge 19 Apr 2021
In reply to GraB:

> As far as heat output goes, a single candle might produce something like 80W of power. A hot water bottle could kick out 80W through radiation alone, but if you put it next to your body then it will also put out power through conduction in addition to radiation.

You can easily get a heat output of 140W from a can of Plutonium Oxide, and it keeps pumping that out for years with no need to boil a kettle. 

It's the future!

 peter-l 19 Apr 2021
In reply to ImperialJohn:

I have used a candle lantern in a small tent, in cold weather and condensation was a massive issue....everything was damp

 VictorM 20 Apr 2021
In reply to peter-l:

> I have used a candle lantern in a small tent, in cold weather and condensation was a massive issue....everything was damp

Heat on its own is never a solution to condensation, it needs to be married to ventilation. otherwise it only makes matters worse, especially in small spaces made from materials not made to vent on their own -  such as a nylon tent. 

Think about your windows. They get damp in cold weather because the inside is warmer than the outside. The solution is not more heat, but more ventilation. The same principle applies to tents. Hence why a warm sleeping bag and good mat is so important in winter camping, the tent doesn't do F all. 

In reply to Ridge:

> You can easily get a heat output of 140W from a can of Plutonium Oxide, and it keeps pumping that out for years with no need to boil a kettle. 

Yeah, but you have to watch out for the Libyans.

 nufkin 20 Apr 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

>  where exactly are you going to find a warm body at bedtime in the hills? Farmer won't be happy if you worry his sheep.

That's a very unimaginative approach. If you play your cards right that warm body could be the farmer's

 deepsoup 20 Apr 2021
In reply to VictorM:

> Heat on its own is never a solution to condensation, it needs to be married to ventilation. otherwise it only makes matters worse, especially in small spaces made from materials not made to vent on their own -  such as a nylon tent. 

A candle flame isn't just a source of heat, it's also a source of moisture, so yep.  (When you burn hydrocarbons what you mostly get is CO2 from the carbon and H2O, ie: steam, from the hydrogen.)

Increasing the temperature of the air will reduce the relative humidity though, so it may feel less damp while probably exacerbating condensation problems wherever that warm air meets a cold surface.  (It'd definitely feel less damp while burning to death in a flaming tent.)

In fairness to the OP though, a candle lantern might genuinely help with dampness if there's a high vent to act like a chimney and allow the warmer air to convect up and out of the tent taking some of the moisture with it.  I don't know if I'd risk immolating myself for that personally but each to their own.

 AlanLittle 20 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> what you mostly get is CO2 from the carbon

Other oxides of carbon are available ...

 deepsoup 20 Apr 2021
In reply to AlanLittle:

Indeed, and you might also get a bit of carbon that isn't oxidised at all in the form of soot.  Also there will be traces of other stuff besides carbon and hydrogen in the fuel, so sulphur dioxide etc..

Regarding carbon monoxide, I posted a couple of links to grim cautionary tales of people in tents being killed by it in the OP's other thread.  In one case by a cold, used, 'disposable' barbeque left in the porch.  But I don't think that's a particularly serious risk with a candle lantern is it?

 Howard J 21 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

> Regarding carbon monoxide, I posted a couple of links to grim cautionary tales of people in tents being killed by it in the OP's other thread.  In one case by a cold, used, 'disposable' barbeque left in the porch.  But I don't think that's a particularly serious risk with a candle lantern is it?

Possibly not, but why risk it (and the far greater risk of fire) when there far safer and more effective alternatives?

The CO risk from barbecues is real, and I've seen posters up at many campsites warning about this.

 deepsoup 22 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

> The CO risk from barbecues is real, and I've seen posters up at many campsites warning about this.

Indeed.  These are the two links I posted in the other thread.  (Just by way of examples, there are others I could have chosen.)  They're grim reading, so I'd advise anyone feeling emotionally fragile to give them a miss especially if, like me, they are already perfectly well aware that the CO risk from barbecues is real.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-21059594
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-33976414

The OP has had quite enough dire warnings now though that there really isn't much point in more and more people piling on to repeat them.  In a more nuanced discussion I think you'd have to acknowledge that the CO risk from a candle flame burning reasonably cleanly is very much less 'real' than that posed by any kind of a wood stove or barbecue.  Unlike the risk of fire, which I agree is almost certainly unjustifiably serious in a small nylon tent.


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