Ladybower camper located by 'thermal imaging camera' & moved on

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 TMM 23 Apr 2021

Apologies for the link to a rival site but I found this quite surprising.

Has anyone else had this experience?

https://outdoorsmagic.com/article/news-wild-campers-caught-by-thermal-imagi...

 ebdon 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

Cripes! That's a bit worrying, I always assume an hours walk and I would never get bothered. Let's hope its isolated to the local area, I don't think the estate around Bamford has ever been particularly welcoming.

 Neil Williams 23 Apr 2021
In reply to ebdon:

To be honest the Peak has always felt "not quite rural enough" to me for wild camping, nowhere is really genuinely away from everywhere (my usual line would be "if you get caught you were doing it wrong").  But I suppose if Peak landowners can be going around with drones with thermal imaging cameras, so can those in the Lakes etc...

Post edited at 13:55
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 Denning76 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

So it was on Bamford Edge, which is owned by the Moscar Estate right? If so, considering the ownership I'm hardly surprised. Doubt that camper being rescued in the Lakes helped either.

1
 Philb1950 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

It is hardly surprising that the estate moved people on. The Peak District and Bamford edge in particular is currently being trashed at an alarming rate. Check out the lay-bys full of rubbish and eroded verges at Bamford edge road, plus two recent fires being caused by imbecilic disposable barbecue usage. Despite all this the park authority and BMC are full speed ahead encouraging more and more people to visit the outdoors. The whole area is a fragile and irreplaceable eco system and when it’s gone it’s gone.  I was recently approached by somebody who said “Is this the Peak District” to which I replied in the affirmative and they said “Well what do you do” “Go walking, climbing cycling or something similar” was what I said. “ Oh that’s no good, are there any cafes we can drive to”. Still want more and more people to visit?

10
 galpinos 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

Sounds like they were at Bamford. It’s quite a popular “wild camping” spot. Only a 15/20 minute walk, good views and features on popular “wild camping” YouTube sites. Was climbing there Tuesday night and saw three tents. 

2
 MonkeyPuzzle 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

Idiot. I've seen enough cinema to know all they needed to do was cover themselves in a thin patchy layer of mud and they would become invisible to thermal-based vision of any kind.

 wercat 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

we need to start using military grade non IR reflective  garments and facepaint - you can get olive drab anti IR reflective vehicle paint you can put on your camping metalwork.

 wercat 23 Apr 2021
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

while that isn't wholly effective it is quite a good defence against insects which I've used on occasion

 richprideaux 23 Apr 2021
In reply to wercat:

> we need to start using military grade non IR reflective  garments and facepaint - you can get olive drab anti IR reflective vehicle paint you can put on your camping metalwork.

Still not great at defeating thermal. Layers of scrim net works surprisingly well though.

 wintertree 23 Apr 2021
In reply to richprideaux:

> Still not great at defeating thermal. Layers of scrim net works surprisingly well though.

If you can get in a dry drainage sike that significantly reduces the volume of space from which you have a site line.  Get in a well insulated sleeping bag and roll a foam mat up over the back of your head and you could be pretty hard to find...

 richprideaux 23 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:

Get inside a Blizzard Bag and you'll appear as a block of ice

 Ridge 23 Apr 2021
In reply to wercat:

> we need to start using military grade non IR reflective  garments and facepaint - you can get olive drab anti IR reflective vehicle paint you can put on your camping metalwork.

“Non IR Reflective”? The QM must have hated me, all my kit was marked “IRR”...

I think it's reflective, rather than non reflective, as plants tend to reflect IR, so to anyone using an old school IR illuminator you don't stand out against the foliage. Not much comfort in an urban area though.

Not much use against TI either.

 Ridge 23 Apr 2021
In reply to richprideaux:

Curl up in a ball and pretend you're a sheep?

 mrphilipoldham 23 Apr 2021
In reply to Ridge:

No use. If you don’t try and commit suicide within a couple of minutes they’ll know you’re not a sheep.

 Ian Parsons 23 Apr 2021
In reply to Ridge:

> Curl up in a ball and pretend you're a sheep?


That won't work; I've heard they can detect sheep as well. Or in this case - wild sheep.

1
 wintertree 23 Apr 2021
In reply to richprideaux:

> Get inside a Blizzard Bag and you'll appear as a block of ice

Problem is the rustling noises will attract the search dogs unless you keep really still.

 richprideaux 23 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:

> Problem is the rustling noises will attract the search dogs unless you keep really still.

It's the Search Cats you need to worry about:

youtube.com/watch?v=JAYQyrsX1HM&

 toad 23 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

Hmm. An An upland grouse shooting estate would have lots of legitimate reasons to restrict the presence of prying eyes during raptor breeding season, wouldn't it? 

7
 Red Rover 23 Apr 2021
In reply to wintertree:

 And wake up covered in ticks!

 wercat 24 Apr 2021
In reply to Ridge:

yes I think I was mixing it up with the old stuff from the 70s where there would have been IR illumination and there was anti reflection stuff about.  Wouldn't have stopped your movements being picked up by a spooky ZB298 operator though.  You'd need significant insulation to prevent thermal imaging detection.  Perhaps a space blanket as well topped by heaped earth, troglodytic camping

Post edited at 10:17
 ChrisJD 24 Apr 2021
In reply to TMM:

Blimey, Moscar Estate are upping their game and employing a Predator. 

New 'Wild' Camping checklist:

- Tent

- Sleeping Bag

- Mat

- Arnold Schwarzenegger

 Offwidth 24 Apr 2021
In reply to Philb1950:

It is surprising as it's rare to become news.

On the BMC you are plain wrong, which is especially sad, as it distracts from the real problems you report. The BMC encourage responsible participation and directly oppose all the things you are complaining about and organise cleanups and other environmental improvement. Even the Peak Park have been quiet during covid and often recommending avoiding the area.

Post edited at 12:46
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 MonkeyPuzzle 24 Apr 2021
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Blimey, Moscar Estate are upping their game and employing a Predator. 

> New 'Wild' Camping checklist:

> - Tent

> - Sleeping Bag

> - Mat

> - Arnold Schwarzenegger

You forgot:

- De Chaapper

 msjhes2 24 Apr 2021
In reply to MonkeyPuzzle:

Counted 8 tents visible from the crag tonight.  Just as we were leaving at 8:15 two guys on a quad turned up and started moving them on.

 Babika 24 Apr 2021
In reply to msjhes2:

I wonder where they'll go to? 

I think Bamford must be featuring in some Instagram-places-to-go articles judging by the coachloads last year. 

Personally I just wish they'd all abide by the no dogs rule

Harrumph. 

1
 TobyA 24 Apr 2021
In reply to msjhes2:

I have bivvied up there a couple of times, but not for a few years and never in a tent. 8 tents does seem to be taking the piss a bit. It's not that "wild" as wild camping spots go. If you walk over the moor and go and bivvy on the top High Neb behind, even with a torch on, you'd be out of line of sight from virtually all the houses down in the valley. 

The quad bike usage does seem vaguely ironic although. It's hardly that big a walk from the road!

1
 Ridge 24 Apr 2021
In reply to ChrisJD:

> Blimey, Moscar Estate are upping their game and employing a Predator. 

Even I think a drone with Hellfire missiles is a tad excessive.

Clauso 24 Apr 2021
In reply to TobyA:

> The quad bike usage does seem vaguely ironic although. It's hardly that big a walk from the road!

Not to mention the contribution to climate change?... Surely the Duke ought to just sow the area with anti-personnel mines instead? That'd make for some fairly wild camping, and any survivors will have earned the right to kip a night under canvas. 

2
 spenser 24 Apr 2021
In reply to Babika:

Does the no dogs rule only apply below the crag? I thought dogs were regarded as a "usual accompaniement" on footpaths and therefore not considered to be trespassing (while wheeling a bike down a footpath would be dodgy ground).

 Denning76 24 Apr 2021
In reply to Clauso:

You joke, but a number of fell runners have been caught in their unmarked snares over the years.

 Timmd 24 Apr 2021
In reply to Ridge:

> Curl up in a ball and pretend you're a sheep?

https://sos-shop.com/collections/survival-outdoor/products/thermal-survival...

This looks quite interesting as a possible solution.

Roadrunner6 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Neil Williams:

I've wild camped loads but never with a tent just in a plantation or next to boulders with a bivi bag.

Never had an issue apart from one time but we were a pile of 15 year old drunk kids with a fire.. I doubt they needed a thermal imaging camera to find us.

Is there any evidence this was he came here? Bamford edge always had access issues anyway. Was that sorted after CRoW? I grew up on the edge of sheffield but haven't lived there since 1998.

Roadrunner6 25 Apr 2021
In reply to spenser:

Dogs are fine on a public footpath. Not sure if it's public access over Bamford though or a permissive trail.

2
 Howard J 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Roadrunner6:

Bamford is now Access Land under CRoW, but the estate takes full advantage of its right to close it for 28 days a year.  The estate is clearly unhappy with any public access and it unsurprising that they will try to stop anything which isn't permitted by CRoW, such as camping. Thermal imaging seems a bit OTT but maybe they have the kit for other purposes. On the other hand a group of 8 tents pitched before sundown is hardly discreet.

 Sam Beaton 25 Apr 2021
In reply to spenser:

Dogs under close control are allowed on public rights of way through CROW Access Land where dogs are otherwise banned, landowners have no powers to stop dogs being walked on public rights of way

Post edited at 07:59
 deepsoup 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Howard J:

It's a weird sensation having some sympathy with the Moscar Estate, I don't like it.

> Thermal imaging seems a bit OTT but maybe they have the kit for other purposes.

Keeping a lookout for witnesses when they're murdering the wildlife most likely.  Moscar are the worst of the worst.

Am I imagining things or was there a tourist info poster advertising the Peak a few years back that featured a pair of booted feet in the entrance to a tent (like a foot selfie) framing the view from Bamford?  (They said "Peaks" too, damn their eyes.)

5
 deepsoup 25 Apr 2021
In reply to spenser:

> Does the no dogs rule only apply below the crag?

As a couple of people have already said, dogs are always allowed (under 'close control') on public rights of way but the thing is that there are no ROW's over Bamford.  The landowner is entitled to ban dogs from access land, and in this case they do.  (They also ban people to the maximum extent that they're allowed to by CROW legislation - 28 days a year.)

The Northern end of Stanage including High Neb is on the same estate.  Hardly anyone takes a blind bit of notice but strictly speaking dogs are not allowed other than on the public rights of way there either.

 Offwidth 25 Apr 2021
In reply to deepsoup:

Moscar estate have had problems with people hiding out to obtain evidence of illegal behaviour towards raptors etc. Thats very likely the reason they have the kit. Wild camping has been recommended at Bamford Edge on social media, despite obviously being against the CRoW rules..... a potential future access issue as Moscar are looking to do all they can to fully utilise and extend CRoW restrictions.

The BMC RAD page is clear for Stanage from High Neb northwards. No dogs are allowed except on Public Rights of Way. It's possible for a few areas to tie up a dog near enough (on the footpath below the crag) but not at High Neb (I saw several climbing parties with dogs up there on Friday but at least they were all on leads... very important in spring given lambing and ground nesting ring ouzels). 

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/modules/rad/view.aspx?id=150

Since I collected a load of dislikes for just pointing out the truth about sensible BMC recommendations here is another recent one:

https://www.thebmc.co.uk/respect-the-wild-camping-vanning

Post edited at 10:54
 wercat 25 Apr 2021
In reply to Clauso:

A good deterrent is to have dessicated walkers hung from fences in similar manner and number as a molecatcher leaves moles

1
 Jenny C 25 Apr 2021
In reply to wercat:

Or in stink pits, the same way they dispose of hare carcases.

 johncook 25 Apr 2021
In reply to spenser:

I believe the rule on the estate is that dogs are only allowed on the right of way along the top of High Neb, and even on there they must be on a short lead and under control. Which is reasonable having suffered from loose dogs on just about every crag I have been on!

1
 Babika 25 Apr 2021
In reply to johncook:

The No Dogs signs are fairly clear at Bamford. I was struggling to top out once and nearly had my face bitten off by a loose dog so I'm grateful for the estate rules.

As are the Keep Dogs on Leads sign between 1 March and 31 July at Froggatt. 

1 midweek day in March I counted 15 out of 18 dogs off their lead - including 1 group of climbers heading home.  After gently reminding the first 3 parties I met and being ignored I gave up. 

But the sight of a spaniel dashing in and out of the heather at will and the thought of all the ground nesting birds disturbed made me wonder why folk are so arrogant. 

3
 rsc 26 Apr 2021
In reply to Babika:

> The No Dogs signs are fairly clear at Bamford.

Doctor’s Gate, twenty yards from a pair of those signs:

”It’s nesting season now, can I beg you to keep the dog on a lead...”

”Mind your own f***ing business.”

 Babika 26 Apr 2021
In reply to rsc:

I didn't get abuse, just smiles and nods and no action.

Like "thank you for reminding me what other dog owners should do"


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