Lady Litter, a delicate subject.

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 Godwin 19 Apr 2022

Just spent a few days walking around the Lake Como area, and it is amazing, just a beautiful area, with walks for all abilities, I highly recommend.

After awhile though, I started noticing paper tissues every so often, which was a bit odd really as we saw very few other walkers, but obviously as everyone is moving along a trail, you generally see only the people moving in the opposite direction.

Anyway I digress. After awhile of pondering, I asked my wife if these tissues could be from ladies, taking a wee, and my wife chuckled and said, probably, she carries a little plastic bag and does not drop litter, but it is possible these are what I suspected.

I have noticed tissues at crags and whilst out walking in the UK, but just assumed they had fallen out of pockets.

So Ladies, if my suspicion is correct, please take your tissues home.

4
 girlymonkey 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

There is nothing delicate about it! It's litter and it's disgusting!

Either shimmy and shake, or wipe and carry out. I teach this to groups of kids all the time, so hopefully the next generation are learning properly. 

I talk very openly with groups, adults and kids, about pee, poo and periods. It's all normal bodily functions and we need to talk openly so that people know best practice

1
In reply to girlymonkey:

> I talk very openly with groups, adults and kids, about pee, poo and periods. It's all normal bodily functions and we need to talk openly so that people know best practice

I found working with a girls' school on DofE, that the girls had a refreshingly open attitude to discussing their periods, with very little of the secrecy and reticence that would have been the case when I was at school. This doesn't mean they come on expeditions suitably equipped, though...

 wert 19 Apr 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

Thin panty liners can be a solution. No tissues needed and no wet knickers either. 

 girlymonkey 19 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

I have actually written handouts for teachers to use with DofE groups for helping them understand how to deal with periods. I have found many male instructors have no idea (understandably) and so don't even mention it. I reckoned that giving them a sheet they can just hand out might be useful. 

Yes, I can imagine girls schools being much easier for talking about it!

1
 girlymonkey 19 Apr 2022
In reply to wert:

I have perfected my shimmy and shake to a fine art, no problem with wet knickers! But yes, if that helps some people, good idea. 

1
 climbingpixie 19 Apr 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

I'm frankly amazed that there are women out there using tissues - I thought everyone did the shimmy and shake!

Menstrual cups have definitely made the period bit easier. Not having to carry used tampons out in a sandwich bag is a vast improvement! 

 Rick Graham 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

In defence to about half of the population, I have noticed a lot of tissue debris on popular footpaths, ie too many folk around for a quick wazz.

So it could just be runny noses from either sex. Still litter.

 kathrync 19 Apr 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

> There is nothing delicate about it! It's litter and it's disgusting!

This! We shouldn't be delicate about dealing with bodily functions in the hills because we can't improve the way people handle this without talking about it.

I'm another shimmy-and-shaker. There's nothing wrong with wiping if that's your preference, but any waste should be carried out like anything else. Another alternative I sometimes use is to wipe with a a broad leaf, or a handful of moss depending on where I am and what is to hand.

 Jenny C 19 Apr 2022
In reply to climbingpixie:

> Menstrual cups have definitely made the period bit easier. Not having to carry used tampons out in a sandwich bag is a vast improvement! 

Oh gosh yes, so much easier to sort at home and then forget about your period for the day.

 Fredt 19 Apr 2022
In reply to climbingpixie:

> I'm frankly amazed that there are women out there using tissues - I thought everyone did the shimmy and shake!

Reminds me of an old welsh aunt, who would say, (in a very welsh accent) " Oh well, I'm just off to shake my lettuce"

 girlymonkey 19 Apr 2022
In reply to climbingpixie:

> Menstrual cups have definitely made the period bit easier. Not having to carry used tampons out in a sandwich bag is a vast improvement! 

Absolutely! Home or on the hill, always the easiest! 

 Ian_Cognito 19 Apr 2022
In reply to kathrync:

> Another alternative I sometimes use is to wipe with a broad leaf, or a handful of moss depending on where I am and what is to hand.

Make sure it's not a nettle...

 kathrync 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Ian_Cognito:

> Make sure it's not a nettle...

Yes! Bracken is not recommended either!

 RankAmateur 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

There's a spot at Uluru, about halfway around from the big car park, where everyones bladder appears to give out.

And because it's an arid place, the tissues quickly dry out and start blowing around. That was pleasant...

 felt 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

I've always had this down as a French thing. I remember living in the Queyras for some months one summer in the early 90s. Going up and along all sorts of remote paths through the larch woods, it was Hansel and Gretel time with the white tissues. I eventually conceptualised them as some sort of common edelweiss to lessen their impact on mood. At least they weren't wet wipes and were bio after a fashion.

 Jenny C 19 Apr 2022
In reply to RankAmateur:

I was utterly desperate when we visited, think I got carried away with the advice to stay well hydrated (held it in though). Tbh I thought the tourist area was really well catered for with public facilities, even the long drop toilets were cleaner than many public facilities I've encountered in Europe.

OP Godwin 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Rick Graham:

> In defence to about half of the population, 

I would suggest you have insulted the large percentage of women who do not drop litter there, and in making the assumption they need a man to defend little old them.

> So it could just be runny noses from either sex.

You see thats what I thought, but people put their snot rags back in their pocket for re use, not just discard, and I just see far too many for accidental dropping, however to be fair even the most most ardent anti litter person, must on occasion drop something.
I remember seeing a £20 note drop out of your pocket in Borrowdale, but luckily I was on hand to pick up that litter for you

15
In reply to Ian_Cognito:

> Make sure it's not a nettle...

There are worse leaves than that. Thankfully, not native to the UK...

 Heike 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Sorry, that seems a bit like women bashing. I have been a woman for a long time...haha and I have never I'm my life left tissues anywhere or seen any of my women friends chuck tissue. It could well be men, too.  How do you know? And why blame women? Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?

Post edited at 19:18
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 felt 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Heike:

> Sorry, that seems a bit like women bashing. I have been a woman for a long time...haha and I have never I'm my life left tissues anywhere or seen any of my women friends chuck tissue. It could well be men, too.  How do you know? And why blame women? Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?

I've been a bloke for a long time and I can't recall ever coming across another bloke carrying a packet of these, which were roughly the offending type I found scattered widely across les Alpes Maritimes.

https://www.pharmacyfirst.co.uk/kleenex-balsam-pocket-pack-single-klei1.htm...

7
In reply to girlymonkey:

>  I have found many male instructors have no idea (understandably) and so don't even mention it

I've recently been writing up my DofE training notes, developed over the last ten years, into my little aide memoire format (nearly 250 pages now, so it's more a book than a handy pocket guide...). It has notes on feminine hygiene, TSS and panty liners. I did wonder if I would be thought a bit weird if anyone else read it (my previous navigation lesson notes got requested by ~200 people)...

Post edited at 20:16
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In reply to Heike:

> Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?

Taking photos around women toileting could be... problematic...

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 Heike 19 Apr 2022
In reply to felt:

Ok, if you say so. I have never seen a woman throwing any of these about and I certainly have not have bought any of these either in my life and I am approaching a half century....

2
 Heike 19 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

Ok, but claiming things without proof could also be problematic .... I am just joking, but really I have not seen any evidence in my life of climbing women chucking tissues. Men go to the tollet, too.

2
 girlymonkey 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Heike:

Many women in French walking groups definitely take tissues with them when they go to pee. I have to chat about it when I am guiding them. It is, sadly, a real thing. 

I don't guide British adults much, but certainly it takes quite a bit of convincing to get girls on DofE to either not use it or carry it out. 

As much as it feels unfair, it will be mostly women. It is not acceptable, and we should take all opportunities to educate. 

 daWalt 19 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

yea, whenever there's someone taking a piss within sight of a walking trail - it's always the wimmin.

OP Godwin 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Heike:

> Ok, if you say so. I have never seen a woman throwing any of these about and I certainly have not have bought any of these either in my life and I am approaching a half century....

Sorry, have to laugh there, it feeds into the stereotype of women always going to the toilet together.

I would be amazed if you had ever seen another women have a wee, give a wipe and discard, its kind of something people will do discreetly.

To all the women who do not discard tissues, fantastic, but to the few, if any, who do, please stop. Because Heike has asked me to take photos.

3
 Mick Bradshaw 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

@girlymonkey - would you be prepared to share the handout that you have written for teachers working with DofE groups? It would be great to be able to raise this issue appropriately with the schools that I work with

1
 Heike 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Hahaha, I can see that going down well...

Post edited at 08:48
 girlymonkey 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Mick Bradshaw:

Yes, I don't think I can attach it here but if you pm me I will email it to you

 Babika 20 Apr 2022
In reply to daWalt:

> yea, whenever there's someone taking a piss within sight of a walking trail - it's always the wimmin.

Brilliant

1
 rubble 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Mick Bradshaw:

In my past involvement with DofE training - mixed groups - I found a leaflet published by Mountaineering Scotland (think it was MCofS at that time) entitled "How to Go in the Great Outdoors" was a great start in discussing the (t)issue.  Also had, and still do somewhere, a copy of "How to Shit in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art" by Kathleen Meyers which was an invaluable resource, even though it was targetted at the US audience.

Post edited at 15:44
 Billhook 20 Apr 2022
In reply to rubble:

I remember  that book too 'How to shit in the woods'.

 Billhook 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Canoeing in Canada with regular female paddlers I noticed the women in the group had a small bit of cloth, always tied to their bag.  Every time they  went for a 'Bio Break", they used the cloth to wipe and swipe then simply rinsed it in the river for the next break.

 Robert Durran 20 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Well I never knew before that lady wee wiping was actually a "thing". And I'm not so sure that I'm going to be picking up so many of the proliferating tissues in the hills now I know that I do know (I'm guessing that people are more likely to take home their own snotty tissues in their pockets than their wee soaked ones).

 Mick Bradshaw 21 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Just found the MCofS "Where to go in the great outdoors" mentioned above

https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/sites/default/files/2018-09/Where%2... 

 stubbed 21 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

It's definitely women and I personally think it's more common in Europe. None of the women I climb / walk / mtb do this, and I know because we all go together. I also noticed it a lot during the GR20 - disgusting. I teach my daughter the shake method... 

3
In reply to stubbed:

> I teach my daughter the shake method... 

Can anyone describe the 'shimmy and shake' method? I'm struggling to imagine how it's done.

Which bits shimmy, and which bits shake?

3
 katryb 21 Apr 2022
In reply to Billhook:

Nice, an eco wet wipe!

Shimmy and shake, never tissue, in the great outdoors.  Hardly the end of the world if a few drops get in your knickers anyway.

In reply to captain paranoia:

> Can anyone describe the 'shimmy and shake' method?

I'm serious, BTW (for the disliker); I can't describe it to my DofE girls if I can't imagine how it's done.

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 Robert Durran 21 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

> I'm serious, BTW (for the disliker); I can't describe it to my DofE girls if I can't imagine how it's done.

I presume that the shimmy and the shake are orthogonal manoeuvres for optimal wee shedding effect.

 Jenny C 21 Apr 2022
In reply to stubbed:

>.... I teach my daughter the shake method... 

genuine question from another female - is this a technique as such, or just a turn of phrase to describe not using paper?

 girlymonkey 21 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

It's just a phrase really. Just a good shake until all drips are gone is all that is needed.

 Baz P 21 Apr 2022
In reply to girlymonkey:

I’ve shaken a few drips in my time but they still remained idiots.

In reply to girlymonkey:

I suppose you have you shake with arse sticking out behind, otherwise you'd just shake drips onto your clothes, somewhat missing the point. Or hitting the pants...

I guess it requires the same sort of control as twerking, which I've never managed to figure out...

 girlymonkey 21 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

Yes, I tend to just remain in my squat from peeing and shake. 

I can't say I have ever tried to twerk, but I can't imagine it being a skill I posses, but shaking off pee never seems too hard.

 AukWalk 21 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

Some tissues could definitely just have dropped out of pockets - I've occasionally caught a tissue half way out of an unzipped pocket working it's way free. However I am sure a lot of the tissues you see out and about are indeed toilet related, especially given the locations (often clustered behind rocks near busy spots etc).

My other half just takes the used wee tissues home, and I can't see any excuse not to do so. It's hardly a burden having to take the tissues home, and if people are well prepared enough to have tissues with them then I'm sure they can be prepared enough to bring a little plastic bag, or just shove them inside an empty tissue packet (it literally comes with the tissues!), or even just a back pocket (after all it's only a bit of wee). I'll have to ask her about the shimmy method after reading this thread though! 

I imagine & hope not many actual outdoor enthusiasts such as you find on this forum are guilty of this sort of littering though. 

Post edited at 23:13
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 Darkinbad 22 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Can anyone describe the 'shimmy and shake' method?

Personally, I go for the shake and twirl.

 Wainers44 22 Apr 2022
In reply to Darkinbad:

> Personally, I go for the shake and twirl.

I know its wrong but all I have now is the shake and vac advert going round in my head. Totally inappropriate. 

 Darkinbad 22 Apr 2022
In reply to Wainers44:

Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. Says a friend.

 Hutson 22 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

I recently camped with a friend who swore by this especially on multiday walks https://kulacloth.com/

 wercat 22 Apr 2022
In reply to Hutson:

sponge on a stick, vinegar.  The Roman Way

 brianjcooper 22 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

I find a hard stamp with a foot usually does the trick. 

 Pete Pozman 27 Apr 2022
In reply to felt:

At least we've moved on from the pink tissues fluttering like prayer flags on the top of little brown stupas found on most alpine summits.

 Pete Pozman 27 Apr 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

> > Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?

> Taking photos around women toileting could be... problematic...

More the sort of thing you'd expect from a  Tory whistle-blower in the House of commons...

 grectangle 27 Apr 2022
In reply to Godwin:

The worst I ever saw was on a walk I did across Scotland, part of which followed the West Highland Way, aka the West Highland Wet Wipe, aka the Trail of Tissues.  No map needed just follow the discarded wipes.

The solution: carry an empty bread bag in your rucksack with you every time you go outdoors.  

Deposit tissues/wipes in bread bag, then deposit said bread bag in a bin at the end of your trip.  Better yet just empty the bag out and reuse it.  Tying a loose knot at the top prevents egress of contaminants and ensures peace of mind.  You can even write "Arcteryx" on your bread bag with magic marker that way you know it will see you through all the extreme shit you're doing (pun maybe intended).

 cathsullivan 17 May 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

> Which bits shimmy, and which bits shake?

Depends on your age and how many children you've had (plus other variables, I guess).

Post edited at 13:50
 profitofdoom 17 May 2022
In reply to captain paranoia:

> .....Which bits shimmy, and which bits shake?

Then there's the alternate method, "shake, rattle and roll"

Takes practice 


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