Just spent a few days walking around the Lake Como area, and it is amazing, just a beautiful area, with walks for all abilities, I highly recommend.
After awhile though, I started noticing paper tissues every so often, which was a bit odd really as we saw very few other walkers, but obviously as everyone is moving along a trail, you generally see only the people moving in the opposite direction.
Anyway I digress. After awhile of pondering, I asked my wife if these tissues could be from ladies, taking a wee, and my wife chuckled and said, probably, she carries a little plastic bag and does not drop litter, but it is possible these are what I suspected.
I have noticed tissues at crags and whilst out walking in the UK, but just assumed they had fallen out of pockets.
So Ladies, if my suspicion is correct, please take your tissues home.
There is nothing delicate about it! It's litter and it's disgusting!
Either shimmy and shake, or wipe and carry out. I teach this to groups of kids all the time, so hopefully the next generation are learning properly.
I talk very openly with groups, adults and kids, about pee, poo and periods. It's all normal bodily functions and we need to talk openly so that people know best practice
> I talk very openly with groups, adults and kids, about pee, poo and periods. It's all normal bodily functions and we need to talk openly so that people know best practice
I found working with a girls' school on DofE, that the girls had a refreshingly open attitude to discussing their periods, with very little of the secrecy and reticence that would have been the case when I was at school. This doesn't mean they come on expeditions suitably equipped, though...
Thin panty liners can be a solution. No tissues needed and no wet knickers either.
I have actually written handouts for teachers to use with DofE groups for helping them understand how to deal with periods. I have found many male instructors have no idea (understandably) and so don't even mention it. I reckoned that giving them a sheet they can just hand out might be useful.
Yes, I can imagine girls schools being much easier for talking about it!
I have perfected my shimmy and shake to a fine art, no problem with wet knickers! But yes, if that helps some people, good idea.
I'm frankly amazed that there are women out there using tissues - I thought everyone did the shimmy and shake!
Menstrual cups have definitely made the period bit easier. Not having to carry used tampons out in a sandwich bag is a vast improvement!
In defence to about half of the population, I have noticed a lot of tissue debris on popular footpaths, ie too many folk around for a quick wazz.
So it could just be runny noses from either sex. Still litter.
> There is nothing delicate about it! It's litter and it's disgusting!
This! We shouldn't be delicate about dealing with bodily functions in the hills because we can't improve the way people handle this without talking about it.
I'm another shimmy-and-shaker. There's nothing wrong with wiping if that's your preference, but any waste should be carried out like anything else. Another alternative I sometimes use is to wipe with a a broad leaf, or a handful of moss depending on where I am and what is to hand.
> Menstrual cups have definitely made the period bit easier. Not having to carry used tampons out in a sandwich bag is a vast improvement!
Oh gosh yes, so much easier to sort at home and then forget about your period for the day.
> I'm frankly amazed that there are women out there using tissues - I thought everyone did the shimmy and shake!
Reminds me of an old welsh aunt, who would say, (in a very welsh accent) " Oh well, I'm just off to shake my lettuce"
> Menstrual cups have definitely made the period bit easier. Not having to carry used tampons out in a sandwich bag is a vast improvement!
Absolutely! Home or on the hill, always the easiest!
> Another alternative I sometimes use is to wipe with a broad leaf, or a handful of moss depending on where I am and what is to hand.
Make sure it's not a nettle...
There's a spot at Uluru, about halfway around from the big car park, where everyones bladder appears to give out.
And because it's an arid place, the tissues quickly dry out and start blowing around. That was pleasant...
I've always had this down as a French thing. I remember living in the Queyras for some months one summer in the early 90s. Going up and along all sorts of remote paths through the larch woods, it was Hansel and Gretel time with the white tissues. I eventually conceptualised them as some sort of common edelweiss to lessen their impact on mood. At least they weren't wet wipes and were bio after a fashion.
I was utterly desperate when we visited, think I got carried away with the advice to stay well hydrated (held it in though). Tbh I thought the tourist area was really well catered for with public facilities, even the long drop toilets were cleaner than many public facilities I've encountered in Europe.
> In defence to about half of the population,
I would suggest you have insulted the large percentage of women who do not drop litter there, and in making the assumption they need a man to defend little old them.
> So it could just be runny noses from either sex.
> Make sure it's not a nettle...
There are worse leaves than that. Thankfully, not native to the UK...
Sorry, that seems a bit like women bashing. I have been a woman for a long time...haha and I have never I'm my life left tissues anywhere or seen any of my women friends chuck tissue. It could well be men, too. How do you know? And why blame women? Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?
> Sorry, that seems a bit like women bashing. I have been a woman for a long time...haha and I have never I'm my life left tissues anywhere or seen any of my women friends chuck tissue. It could well be men, too. How do you know? And why blame women? Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?
I've been a bloke for a long time and I can't recall ever coming across another bloke carrying a packet of these, which were roughly the offending type I found scattered widely across les Alpes Maritimes.
https://www.pharmacyfirst.co.uk/kleenex-balsam-pocket-pack-single-klei1.htm...
> I have found many male instructors have no idea (understandably) and so don't even mention it
I've recently been writing up my DofE training notes, developed over the last ten years, into my little aide memoire format (nearly 250 pages now, so it's more a book than a handy pocket guide...). It has notes on feminine hygiene, TSS and panty liners. I did wonder if I would be thought a bit weird if anyone else read it (my previous navigation lesson notes got requested by ~200 people)...
> Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?
Taking photos around women toileting could be... problematic...
Ok, if you say so. I have never seen a woman throwing any of these about and I certainly have not have bought any of these either in my life and I am approaching a half century....
Ok, but claiming things without proof could also be problematic .... I am just joking, but really I have not seen any evidence in my life of climbing women chucking tissues. Men go to the tollet, too.
Many women in French walking groups definitely take tissues with them when they go to pee. I have to chat about it when I am guiding them. It is, sadly, a real thing.
I don't guide British adults much, but certainly it takes quite a bit of convincing to get girls on DofE to either not use it or carry it out.
As much as it feels unfair, it will be mostly women. It is not acceptable, and we should take all opportunities to educate.
yea, whenever there's someone taking a piss within sight of a walking trail - it's always the wimmin.
> Ok, if you say so. I have never seen a woman throwing any of these about and I certainly have not have bought any of these either in my life and I am approaching a half century....
Sorry, have to laugh there, it feeds into the stereotype of women always going to the toilet together.
I would be amazed if you had ever seen another women have a wee, give a wipe and discard, its kind of something people will do discreetly.
To all the women who do not discard tissues, fantastic, but to the few, if any, who do, please stop. Because Heike has asked me to take photos.
@girlymonkey - would you be prepared to share the handout that you have written for teachers working with DofE groups? It would be great to be able to raise this issue appropriately with the schools that I work with
Yes, I don't think I can attach it here but if you pm me I will email it to you
> yea, whenever there's someone taking a piss within sight of a walking trail - it's always the wimmin.
Brilliant
In my past involvement with DofE training - mixed groups - I found a leaflet published by Mountaineering Scotland (think it was MCofS at that time) entitled "How to Go in the Great Outdoors" was a great start in discussing the (t)issue. Also had, and still do somewhere, a copy of "How to Shit in the Woods: An Environmentally Sound Approach to a Lost Art" by Kathleen Meyers which was an invaluable resource, even though it was targetted at the US audience.
I remember that book too 'How to shit in the woods'.
Canoeing in Canada with regular female paddlers I noticed the women in the group had a small bit of cloth, always tied to their bag. Every time they went for a 'Bio Break", they used the cloth to wipe and swipe then simply rinsed it in the river for the next break.
Well I never knew before that lady wee wiping was actually a "thing". And I'm not so sure that I'm going to be picking up so many of the proliferating tissues in the hills now I know that I do know (I'm guessing that people are more likely to take home their own snotty tissues in their pockets than their wee soaked ones).
Just found the MCofS "Where to go in the great outdoors" mentioned above
https://www.outdooraccess-scotland.scot/sites/default/files/2018-09/Where%2...
It's definitely women and I personally think it's more common in Europe. None of the women I climb / walk / mtb do this, and I know because we all go together. I also noticed it a lot during the GR20 - disgusting. I teach my daughter the shake method...
> I teach my daughter the shake method...
Can anyone describe the 'shimmy and shake' method? I'm struggling to imagine how it's done.
Which bits shimmy, and which bits shake?
Nice, an eco wet wipe!
Shimmy and shake, never tissue, in the great outdoors. Hardly the end of the world if a few drops get in your knickers anyway.
> Can anyone describe the 'shimmy and shake' method?
I'm serious, BTW (for the disliker); I can't describe it to my DofE girls if I can't imagine how it's done.
> I'm serious, BTW (for the disliker); I can't describe it to my DofE girls if I can't imagine how it's done.
I presume that the shimmy and the shake are orthogonal manoeuvres for optimal wee shedding effect.
>.... I teach my daughter the shake method...
genuine question from another female - is this a technique as such, or just a turn of phrase to describe not using paper?
It's just a phrase really. Just a good shake until all drips are gone is all that is needed.
I’ve shaken a few drips in my time but they still remained idiots.
I suppose you have you shake with arse sticking out behind, otherwise you'd just shake drips onto your clothes, somewhat missing the point. Or hitting the pants...
I guess it requires the same sort of control as twerking, which I've never managed to figure out...
Yes, I tend to just remain in my squat from peeing and shake.
I can't say I have ever tried to twerk, but I can't imagine it being a skill I posses, but shaking off pee never seems too hard.
Some tissues could definitely just have dropped out of pockets - I've occasionally caught a tissue half way out of an unzipped pocket working it's way free. However I am sure a lot of the tissues you see out and about are indeed toilet related, especially given the locations (often clustered behind rocks near busy spots etc).
My other half just takes the used wee tissues home, and I can't see any excuse not to do so. It's hardly a burden having to take the tissues home, and if people are well prepared enough to have tissues with them then I'm sure they can be prepared enough to bring a little plastic bag, or just shove them inside an empty tissue packet (it literally comes with the tissues!), or even just a back pocket (after all it's only a bit of wee). I'll have to ask her about the shimmy method after reading this thread though!
I imagine & hope not many actual outdoor enthusiasts such as you find on this forum are guilty of this sort of littering though.
> Can anyone describe the 'shimmy and shake' method?
Personally, I go for the shake and twirl.
> Personally, I go for the shake and twirl.
I know its wrong but all I have now is the shake and vac advert going round in my head. Totally inappropriate.
Don't knock it 'til you've tried it. Says a friend.
I recently camped with a friend who swore by this especially on multiday walks https://kulacloth.com/
sponge on a stick, vinegar. The Roman Way
I find a hard stamp with a foot usually does the trick.
At least we've moved on from the pink tissues fluttering like prayer flags on the top of little brown stupas found on most alpine summits.
> > Have you got any proof, photographical evidence?
> Taking photos around women toileting could be... problematic...
More the sort of thing you'd expect from a Tory whistle-blower in the House of commons...
The worst I ever saw was on a walk I did across Scotland, part of which followed the West Highland Way, aka the West Highland Wet Wipe, aka the Trail of Tissues. No map needed just follow the discarded wipes.
The solution: carry an empty bread bag in your rucksack with you every time you go outdoors.
Deposit tissues/wipes in bread bag, then deposit said bread bag in a bin at the end of your trip. Better yet just empty the bag out and reuse it. Tying a loose knot at the top prevents egress of contaminants and ensures peace of mind. You can even write "Arcteryx" on your bread bag with magic marker that way you know it will see you through all the extreme shit you're doing (pun maybe intended).
> Which bits shimmy, and which bits shake?
Depends on your age and how many children you've had (plus other variables, I guess).
> .....Which bits shimmy, and which bits shake?
Then there's the alternate method, "shake, rattle and roll"
Takes practice
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