UKH

I had been watching this guy's videos as he attempts scrambles in an amusing way but what happens at 1:53 in this video sickened me.

I commented accordingly on the video as you'll see.

youtube.com/watch?v=spB9HWjxPl8&

Having clicked the link and watched a few of his videos I've drawn the conclusion he's a bit of a kn0b, not to mention a bit liberal with the term guide when referring to himself. 

He’s responded to you 

Good shout calling him out on that. 

Although, even if I’d not watched the clip, his website address tells me everything I need to know...

I wonder just what sort of experience this guy really has at climbing anything. And just who, ever, pulls off a loose piece of rock and chucks it, without even having the nous to shout 'Below!'?  And as Jackspratt says, he has the cheek to call himself a 'guide' when he's not in fact guiding his partner in any way. Just leaving her to fend for herself while he bumbles on upwards, more interesting in talking to his ongoing selfie than anything else.

Looks like he's appealing to the 'bear grylls' sector of the market.....I wouldn't trust him with anyone looking at his videos....and the name....well!!

I'm left wondering why anyone would be wanting to give him the publicity oxygen he seems to crave, by posting links on a popular website.

Seems like the real world equivalent of an online troll to me, but all the more dangerous for not just messing with people's online existence.

Apparently you are an ‘armchair expert’ or something along those lines (his response). There’s a good comment from someone calling into question his quals, experience and insurance- surprise he’s not responded to that one.

Someone from an NGB should send a secret shopper his way....

The fisheye lens makes what he’s doing look steeper and more impressive than it actually is. He’s clearly a bit of an egotistical dick.

His website lacks any of those details!

Ah, I see that Brave Dave is finally making an appearance on UKC

Check out his 'guided train hopping adventure':

http://www.iambravedave.com/index.php?page=brave-dave-insane-on-a-freight-t...

An absolute steal at £18.5k!

I hope he’s got a good lawyer and public liability insurance!!

Not sure we need to spend the money on renewing Trident when we have this massive weapon already in reserve.

Ah Brave Dave someone mentioned him when I was taking some pictures out scrambling, I watched a couple of minutes of one his video’s but find it excruciating to watch so gave up.

the person who mentioned him did say he was touting himself as a guide 

Bear Grylls has a lot to answer for :-/

The only people leaving positive comments on any of his videos are the same people who ask you if you’ve seen that film about Alex Honnalds on Netflix when you tell them you like rock climbing.  

This has got to be a troll. There's no way it's being put out there as serious.

Alexa,  find me a total dickhead to climb a mountain with.

"I found the perfect guide"

Or even has a look to see if anyone has appeared at the base whilst he's been climbing.  Although I doubt he'd still be able to see the base given how easy angled it is.

My thoughts watching the first minute of the thing was how loose the rock looked, and how in the line of fire his partner is if (when) he pulls something off. If he was that "brave" he should have let her go first so that she can kick stuff off onto him instead of the other way around.  I hope she knew what sort of potential danger she was being put into - although she didn't look very confidant, so maybe not experienced and trusting her "guide"?

Oh I don't know.  On his splendid web-site he states that  "I'm also a mountain guide (I even have a real life ML qualification and everything!)."  Although as the most he's prepared to reveal about his true identity is that he's (maybe) called "Dave" it's not easy to check this on the mountain-training.org database.  Handy in avoiding the inevitable liability claims that'll be coming his way I guess.

Still - if he can persuade the gullible to cough up 390 GBP for a day of easy scrambling, then good luck to him.  Or somethng.

I poked around a bit and found this - https://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/83ei5s/so_i_just_found_this_channe...

(Scroll down a little bit to the relevant post)

Yes I saw that.  I don't propose to continue the discussion on youtube.  "Adios" as he might say.

I get the feeling that behind his defensive response he may actually have realized that what he did was a mistake.  

If he hasn't then there's probably no hope for him.

I just reported it on You Tube as misleading and dangerous, not that that will have any impact.

Wow, lost for words.  Bryant's Gully is a great scramble but loose as hell near the top.  At the very least I'd have thought a guide would make their client wear a helmet up there.  He implies on the website that he's pushing his own limits with this one - yet he's also attempting to guide and keep gullible and paying clients safe on the same terrain?

It would be really interesting to see what happened on a Brave Dave outing (if as if by coincidence) a couple of the the mountain rescue people, or one of the fully qualified MIC/MIA types on here were to book onto a days guided grade 2/3 scrambling with him posing as beginners, GoPro the whole thing, perhaps get into a spot of simulated difficulty somewhere on-route and then report back.

I'm sure HSE would be very interested to as its a commercial enterprise

And HMRC - wonder how much tax worthy earnings are being declared

I don't for a moment think it's a troll - I think he's absolutely for real, and I fear he's getting plenty of work through his rather canny social media presentation.  It does seem to be remarkably difficult to find out who he actually is, and try to verify his qualification. 

Having said that, I don't doubt that he's telling the truth about holding ML, and that he's got the standard Howden within-remit insurance policy.  It's just that he's acting outside that remit and way outside good practice.

I do wonder - what would the insurers do?  Say the woman in that video fell and ended up permanently disabled, and made a £5M claim.  Would Howden pay out and then try to reclaim it from him for acting under false pretences?  Or would they say that his insurance was invalid and simply not pay out?  If the latter I am rather more worried about him and his antics than the former.

Oh dear, that is indeed scary stuff - and this guy makes a living dong this sort of stuff, wow.

It would suck to be the now-permanently-disabled victim, though.

It would also suck to be any other mountain guide in the industry, too, because a claim like that would surely affect the insurer's view of the risks posed by "qualified" MLs.

And it would suck to be anyone who cares about mountaineering because incidents DO affect access issues.

Of course, if this muppet manages to badly hurt or kill someone, it would be a terrible thing, for all the reasons you mention (and also because it would negatively affect the perception of all properly qualified instructors). 

I'm simply interested to know if we reckon that the insurer would pay out, though.  It would indeed suck to be the now-permanently-disabled victim, but it would suck even more to find that you were destitute because your leader had no valid insurance.

The other issue of course is the personal liability of this guy if he is guiding people on terrain above his qualifications.  There was a case a couple of years ago where a MTB instructor was successfully sued for £4 million after one of his clients sadly had an accident resulting in life changing injuries.  That case was not 100% clear cut, however I'm not sure this guy would be covered in any way shape or form if he is offering paid guiding way beyond his qualified remit. 

Would his insurance cough up in this situation I wonder or would he be personally liable should an accident occur?

They won’t pay out if he’s not acting within the constraints of the contract. The victim would have to sue him personally which probably wouldn’t be successful as he’d likely not have any assets. Maybe a house to go after I guess. 

May first I thought the op was being a fairy and it wasn’t that bad... but the rest of his outfit is truly scary.

I detest this type of ‘video everything and make it look XTREME’ type of person.

The only comment he hasn’t responded to is Steve Long who appears to have literally written the handbook

The bloke's a prize plum. I wouldn't trust him to scramble an egg.

What's he done on grit?

The scariest part is that despite some very sensible comments on the video from some seriously qualified people, he still seems completely blase and remarkably dismissive of anyone's opinion but his own.  Equally blase and naively optimistic about his clients safety too from what I can see in his video.

Whilst he's pretty ostentatious he certainly not alone, there are more and more 'fake guides' appearing, unaware of their shortcomings, advertising their exploits and services on social media. One person is already dead. There is, currently, pretty much no regulation of mountain guiding activities in the UK so this situation is likely to get worse before it gets better.

"I'm also a mountain guide (I even have a real life ML qualification and everything!). I love, love, loooove being out on the mountains and I love showing other people the mountains as well."

I'm sure the BMG would love to hear his new definition of a mountain guide...

This guy appears completely deluded as to his own risk assessing/problem solving capabilities & it scares the f**k out of me to think that there are youngsters out there that might actually believe his s**t. One day he will leave some family heartbroken & it will all be so senseless….

It's OK, he says he doesn't need insurance (though claims to have some) as nobody he's "leading" is ever going to have an accident.

If there has been a fatal accident involving someone charging others to take them mountaineering, I presume it was reported in the press. If this isn't something that is somehow still involved in an official investigation or litigation, can you tell us more about what happened?

I think he needs to know how wide open he is to legal claims or even criminal offences re duty of care.

There have been several  incidents involving guides and deaths but none in recent years as far as I know.

Wow! thanks for posting this - really scary stuff

What bothers me is that he keeps banging on about how he only leads people up grade 2 scrambles if he has been out with them before and he knows the routes well etc. A little digging on his site uncovers the review by the woman in the video who says she had not met him before the day she went out with him and the video was his second time up the route. 

Slightly misleading...

Is he, though?  I'm very much playing devil's advocate here but - if he is making it perfectly clear to participants that he's not formally qualified for this activity and is uninsured, then I don't think he's actually breaking the law?  That he doesn't adhere to best practice in the videos we see also isn't a criminal offence in itself - though it won't be very helpful if he ends up defending himself against claim for negligence.

I don't for a second believe this is what he's doing, of course - he'll be telling his participants that he's qaulified and insured, and I am sure they'd be horrified to know that he is neither.

Thanks.  I'm glad I posted it although I could have done without being referred to as a 'fairy' on here...  What sort of word is that to use these days?  

The weight of powerful professional advice Dave has been given on youtube must surely make an impression on him.  Perhaps - just perhaps - he'll heed it.

thanks to this dork his 100000 subscribers know where the 'super secret' cave in the lakes is;(

Scrambling seems like such a grey area in terms of qualifications. 

The ML qual seems to enable you to competently guide others on walks in the hills etc. but where does scrambling fall into it?

I know a lot of MLs do loads of scrambling but is that because it's the most interesting thing they can do to consolidate their QMDs? Considering winter doesn't count and as soon as you get a rope out that doesn't either, it sounds plausible that most MLs would have a lot of scrambling experience just because that's what they choose to do. Are you, as an ML, actually assessed on scrambles at all? Is there anything once qualified that says 'you may now guide people up to *this* level of scramble? Because deployment of a rope is very subjective. I've done things of Moderate/Difficult level without getting a rope out. I've also used a confidence rope with someone on a grade 1.  

It seems mad that this chap thinks scrambles like this are an appropriate thing for someone with an ML qual to take people up. A qualification that essentially says you can walk around confidently and navigate in the hills. What would happen if a storm hit while you were halfway up and your client went cragfast? Would an ML equip you with the tools to deal with that scenario? 

I genuinely don't know but there's a few people I've met working towards their ML which I wouldn't fancy being in control of that sort of situation. 

As a rough guide, Crib Goch in good weather with confident and experienced walkers is on the border of ML territory, 

A friend who runs guiding on the Cuillin ridge will only employ MIA due to the amount of scrambling involved

From the video here he seems to find his first attempt at Bryant's Gully pretty difficult, so much so he has to bail from one reasonably easy section - unless he's just hamming in up for the camera to make it seem more dramatic for his viewers of course?

youtube.com/watch?v=4Qe4cTnzD3w&

If you read the comments he's not even heard of the Garry Smith guidebook, probably not the Ashton one either?  Doesn't come across from his video's that he is knowledgeable or has a lot of experience.  More just winging it as he goes I'd say and hoping he stays lucky.

Presumably he'd be looking at jail-time if anything were to happen. I wonder if he's aware of that?

Would Brave Dave still be brave if he got sent down for manslaughter? 

He also thinks it's OK to throw a rock down a gully as long as you can't see anyone immediately below you...

Would it not be possible to make contact face to face with this knob and confront him with everything that is wrong about his practices and attitude. I do wonder how he would react to being told of the irresponsibility of throwing rocks off mountains. Maybe he should be told to throw himself off

390 quid for  days "guiding"? Think i would rather employ a genuine guide for that money.

These two pages make me think the site is a piss-take. I hope I'm right.

http://www.iambravedave.com/index.php?page=brave-dave-insane-on-a-freight-t...

http://www.iambravedave.com/index.php?page=brave-dave-guided-adventures-ful...

Would I be right in thinking a lot of the stuff h's charging for is waaaaaaay beyond the remit of an ML? If so there's no way he's insured to be taking clients out!

I've been aware of this guy for a while. He became insta-famous after a couple of his train-hopping videos got a lot of traction (ha) on Reddit and via other channels - I think he is banned from entry to the US now as a result too.

This video is... special. So is his attitude towards those commenting, especially given who they are, their experience and the way they have tried to educate/inform him.

He gets a decent amount of views on his channel, but I would hazard a guess that a lot of those views are coming from the younger demographic:

https://socialblade.com/youtube/channel/UCqwSZMx11ksCLcYbAs1vZ7w

I predict that he won't get many takers for his 'adventures', and if he does then he is going to end up in coroner's court.

tl;dr - he's a bit of a tit

Even though I also have only done it a few times myself and I am in absolutely no way an expert of any sort I'll show you how to catch trains (Oyster card **), hide on trains (Toilet), get off trains (Oyster Card again) and sleep near to trains (Travel Lodge.)

So if anyone is interested I`ll charge less than Dave, It`ll be more comfortable and you'll certainly get on a train, although as in Daves trip you may get a little crushed but that's only during rush hour

Book Now only £9995......includes complimentary breakfast (You look really good

** Note 'Oyster Card' is used for illustrative purposes only and because it sounds more glamorous than 'Senior Rail Card'

It was widely reported and as far as I remember the judgement is online, a bit of googling will find it. 

Who is a prize plum? Steve Long...?!

Watch this

youtube.com/watch?v=xNq27ygHW50&

And tell me Brave Dave is not our old friend Zimpara.

He’s gaining some traction on Facebook now for much the same reason, his claim to be a “guide” has been brought up by some ML types

100,000 followers though, even if 0.05 % are tempted by some guiding that’s still 50 people in some serious danger. 😕

Ok - he's not our old friend Zimpara. 

At least, I really don't think so.  The resemblance is striking though, I'll give you that.

Jesus Christ the comments over the last 24 hours have absolutely destroyed him. 

I think he is you know. Add few years and a few pounds to zimpara and you get Dave. 

I don't think anyone is looking to 'destroy him', perhaps just to make him and his potential clients a little more aware of what the limitations surrounding a ML qualification entail and hopefully point out a few things more he could be doing to enhance the safety of any clients he does happen to take up into the hills.  So far he seems recklessly dismissive of any advice given and would rather by the looks of his comments ridicule anyone who disagrees with him rather than take the 'Brave' step of self awareness, evaluation and engaging without the ego with those with far more experience so that he can learn from them.  Brave Dave - perhaps not!

I think that genuine mountain guides might also be worried that this guy, by calling himself a guide will bring the whole guiding industry into disrepute if there is an incident (remember the press won't know or care about the difference between an ML and MIA/MIC) and all will be tarred with the same brush.  He might also of course be taking paid scrambling work away from other genuine guides (who have put the hard years in to get where they are) if clients sign up with him, his clients blissfully unaware that they are being put in unnecessary danger compared to the best practice approach employed by a proper guide.

A personal bugbear with him is that he's bigging up scrambling routes on the internet that really are pretty easy and straightforward for any competent scrambler as some sort of mad and extreme adventure.  He seems to enjoy taking unnecessary risks and his YouTube followers seem to be lapping it up.  Personally most good climbers I know are massively risk adverse, and don't feel the need to GoPro everything or big themselves up to those who don't know any better after completing some E grade epic.  A pint in the pub afterwards will generally suffice.  I think he's trying way too hard to be liked or famous, but not doing anything even remotely worthy to justify that, and I can't work out why?

The Kim Kardashian of the outdoor world...

Classic zimpara!

Brave Dave is a prize plum... I have no evidence for the plum-like qualities of Steve Long.

I tend to agree. An additional bit of circumstantial evidence is that Zimpy, judging by his youtube profile, is ex-military of some sort. Dave the Brave starts his video by referring to holds as "grips". The only group of people I've come across who use this term is British military (and the ones I've come across all seem to have the same self confidence of Zimpy and Dave, despite also being pretty hopeless). Ipso facto

Didn't that Zimpara bloke have a distinct South African (or southern African) accent? Brave Dave sounds scouse-ish to me.

Can someone enlighten me on this Zimpara fellow?

The two guys accents are totally different - not the same chap IMO.

I don't think they are one and the same.

I can see a likeness though and suspect they are both from the same mould which made me think "They broke the mould" - before they were cast!!!!

Well, not to me they don't. Not that I claim any great ear for accents, so happy to be proved wrong.

Removing a potential life threatening obstacle, sickened you. Wow. the chances of him not knowing there was nobody below or that it wouldn't fall into an place unseen are unproven. Your all pissed because he's not a proper guide. In my long experience proper guides are arrogant pricks too.

Dave?

That really is a ridiculous comment please please please never do this. Anyone who has any experience climbing knows you never intentionally lob rocks off without knowing exactly what's underneath you and shouting a warning regardless. Especially on easy terrain where there will be a ton of loose stuff and you don't know what's below you. You will kill people. 

The fact he (you?) didn't shout "BELOOOOOOOOOW!" regardless of whether he (you?) thought anyone was there is very telling of his (your?) experience level. 

I've only been climbing a few years but even if I was on a desert island with no one else there I'd shout "BELOW!" if I knocked a rock off or "ROPE!" if I chucked a rope down. 

By not doing so you are not only endangering people below you but also teaching the people around that it's okay to do that. The next time that lass finds a bit of rock (or anyone watching these dumb fish-eye videos), they'll think it's fine to chuck rock off because they saw a 'guide' do it.

Whether you think there's anyone there or not is completely irrelevant. If you chuck something off, drop something, or break off a hold you ALWAYS call a warning. 

And people are pissed because he is bringing their job into disrepute. And calling himself a guide, when nothing he is doing is guiding. 

No I think the issues are that he is operating well outside of his training, qualifications and ability.  He is (most probably) in breach of his current insurance policy, and also shows a very lax and inexperienced approach to client safety.  Plus he gets very defensive and seems quite immature when he is dared to be questioned about any of this. 

Proper guides can be pricks too I'm sure, same as anyone (although none that I've met), but at least they have the hard-won years of training and experience to keep their clients relatively safe compared to this guy who seemingly just takes money from rather naive punters who have been impressed by  his 'daring-do deeds' online before 'guiding' them (and I use the term 'guiding' term loosely) into dicey situations that are really well outside of his control and influence. 

If you were a guide having trained for 5-10 years to get the relevant qualifications to take people scrambling/climbing in the mountains and this guy rocks up without any of that and pinches your clients and takes massive short cuts with safety would you be happy? 

If you were a client having paid this guy upfront (as he demands) would you be rather annoyed to discover later that he hasn't even done any of the relevant training to keep you safe? 

Perhaps this is why he asks for full payment up front?

No signs of that yet on his comments, he's still on the defensive - ducking, diving and still thinking he knows best!  Also still no reply to Steve Long either - funny that!  Not 'BraveDave' at all then?

Zim- babwe, he was a Para. I don't actually think now they are the same person, though they were clearly separated at birth. 

I hope people who have passed before me ,remove any loose rock. How much choss do you reckon  Joe Brown tossed away. You represent the new shit wave of risk assessed unadventuress snowflakes. Saying that. You were the most moderate  x

Removing loose rock from a vertical single pitch climb where you know exactly who is below you is very different from removing loose rock from a scramble. If you removed all the loose rock from that route, there'd be no route left.

The rock that you removed could and should have been gently replaced where it was. Throwing it down a gully that is full of loose rock is reckless in the extreme - it could easily dislodge other larger rocks.

J.B single pitch climb??? Ok do you want me to name all his multi pitch....or all the other pioneers.  Loose dangerous shit on any route should be carefully disposed off if safe. Have you ever nearly put your entire life on an unattached flake.. Bristly Ridge 2019. It got trundled 3am.  Never said a word.

I unintentionally removed a loose rock 2 years ago on Bryant's Gully.  It was about the size of a dishwasher.  At first appearances and because of it's size it seemed stable so I was holding onto it at the time.  Luckily it fell between my legs grazing my calf and ankle as it passed. 

Had I not reached out and grabbed another more stable bit of rock next to it as soon as I felt the large block move (pure instinct) then I'd have been off backwards with it, 10-15 metres back down the steep drop into the gully, probably to a fairly messy end. 

Closest I've come in all these years to a serious accident.  Having easily soloed Bryants Gully 4-5 times before then I was definitely a little too blase about the route on this occasion.  You live and learn!

That's crap. He nearly pulled on it. His client  might have. If I dislodge a piece of sand from the summit  of a mountain....

So If you'd been in the hidden part of the gully below him and had ended up in hospital with a few inches of sharp stone impaling your skull, you'd have written to thank him for making the route safer once you'd got discharged and found the video?

(Edit: typo)

Also an entirely different speaking voice and regional accent.  Looks just like him, sounds nothing like..

I've done more adventurous new routing at a decent standard over the last 20 years than you've had hot dinners you tool

I refer you to Pasburys comment at 15:07

https://www.ukclimbing.com/user/profile.php?id=195302

Former regular poster on here with certain erm..  personal qualities in common with BD*.  And, as it turns out, quite a strong physical resemblance to him as well.

* ie:  Not without a certain charm, commendably full of enthusiasm, but the very embodiment of the Dunning Kruger effect and unfortunately dismissive of anyone trying to tell him owt - including some very experienced people genuinely trying to offer friendly advice for his own good.

That occured to me as a rather unsubtle clue just after I had hit send! I'm impressed that I somehow could tell the difference between a SA anglo accent and Zimbabwean anglo accent though!

Go on. Tell me your superior route knowledge 

Had to google that but hahaha that's absolutely brilliant.  Can't believe I've never seen this before!

This diagram explains it perfectly: https://www.reddit.com/r/ShootTheBarrel/comments/8a1a7d/the_dunningkruger_e...

DD needs to conquer mount Stupid before he carries on to conquering mount Snowdon 

*conquering used in ironic context

*mount also used in ironic context

Couple of extracts from Dave's promotional video: "Four beginners on Crib Goch in high wind - just what we need... We've just had some of the strongest gusts I have ever experienced up here... it actually knocked me off my feet."

Ironically, he signs off the promo with: "Come with me if you want to live."

Back in the 70s, when unqualified instructors were common and private insurance unheard of, I used to take people canoeing around Great Orme, scrambling up river gorges, exploring abandoned lead mines, and climbing rock routes and minor alpine peaks. True, you had to have experience and come recommended, but still... The responsibility was immense. I woke up one morning in a cold sweat and vowed never to do it again. I had imagined the worst.

I doubt Dave will take much notice of critical comments, either here or on YouTube, so could someone on the ground in North Wales - a qualified guide for example - please invite him for a pint and a friendly chat at a local pub. He's clearly bright and enthusiastic, just lacking in imagination. Help him to imagine the worst.

Brave Dave also makes websites.

https://web.archive.org/web/20121025213242/http://www.davemakeswebsites.com...

I think £20 a month, simply for 'hosting' it once he's designed it, is pretty steep.

And if there's any loose code on your site he'll kindly bung it down Internet Gully to keep everyone else safe

The original video itself now seems to have been chucked down Internet Gully too...

Adios!

He's probably taken it down so no prospective clients can read the YouTube message thread.

With an attitude like yours you are obviously an arsehole who should be avoided on the hills(and elsewhere) at all costs.

I wondered how long that would take...

I’ve been subscribed to him since the early days. It’s a bit of fun. As far as I can see he’s experienced in North Wales and has done his ML. 

The girl was obviously experienced, chucking a loose rock into a deserted gully doesn’t deserve the full scale character assassination of the self righteous people here. 

I’m fairly sure we’ve had posts that have run into pages with various individuals offering armchair opinions of what is and isn’t considered ML territory, my own take is it’s down to the ML to make a call based on weather conditions, condition of route, weather forecast, ability of group etc etc. 

The fisheye lens is used for dramatic purpose there. 

So, he's Dave Tew then & according to his Facebook page; passed his ML in April this year........ moving quickly to the dizzy heights of "Guide", perhaps the altitude made him a tad air-headed?

We have had lengthy threads about whether Crib Goch is ML territory. Let’s assume it is, just. This isn’t Crib Goch, it’s a grade or two harder for a start. I’m also happy to defer to Steve Long, who knows a bit about the ML qualification. He is very clear that this route is out of scope and that he is demonstrating terrible practice as well, regardless of any qualification he may have.

It’s been deleted.

I called him a tw*t which I stand by, especially in relation his first post.

If you can’t in good faith call someone, who is being a tw*t on this forum, a tw*t then I suppose the mods had better ban me.

Pretty sure you don’t know what the hell you’re talking about.

https://m.facebook.com/story.php?story_fbid=10154127083770196&id=532940...

no comment needed...

Can't really blame him for that, lets hope he's taken the thoughtful advice he was offered on that thread to heart.

 You are as big a shit as he is.

It’s a grade 2+. He said in the video “Not a place for the inexperienced”, the girl clearly knows what she is doing. He’s showing her the route. 

As long as he tailors his routes to the ability of his clients, what exactly is the issue?

Have you actually bothered to read the thread?

I don’t think the competence of the client is the key point here is it. It’s the competence of a self-styled ‘mountain guide’ who is not in any way qualified to be making that statement, operating with poor practice on terrain above and beyond his remit. Added to this the compelling evidence from his videos that he’s enthusiastic but naive (not knowing about routes/ not heard of other actual guides/ no respect for others much more experienced than him) and claims to ‘not really care about insurance’: would you be comfortable with your wife/ husband/ sibling/ child being ‘guided’ by this man?

That's pretty far off the mark.

This is the best thread since the bench on Ben Nevis. 

Some learning on the job for him right there. 

youtube.com/watch?v=W7INuayuIT4&

Brave Dave showing his winter ML skills 😕

the link doesn't work any more but I looked at some of the other stuff!!! FFS! I'd need about 5 minutes with him and you'd be pushing him off, and saying he slipped

Brave Dave doesn't seem to have any control over his impulses, or the ability to imagine what consequences might be. It's like he stopped growing up at about age 9.

Winter ML too?  Christ I hope these were mates rather than paying customers.  The more I see then the more you realise he's just totally winging it, using paying clients as his guinea pigs.  What a total mess!

I don’t think they are paying customers, however he is definitely “leading” them

I'm personally trying to accumulate some upto date winter QMD to do my winter ML,a struggle last winter 😕 but this is because despite having more than enough experience and QMD’s over the years I feel I should have fulfilled the minimum QMD with upto date days out were I’m honing the skills needed for being an WML.

its fairly obvious the guy is out of his depth but if he could channel his enthusiasm into learning and consolidating skills then maybe 😏, it’s when you see this that I can agree with the argument that Bear Grylls is a totally bad choice as chief scout 

Yes I think he's trying to be the next Bear Grylls.  Whatever you think though of Bear Grylls debatable antics and methods though, kids do seem to love him and if that gets more people joining the cubs, scouts, guides etc then that can only be a good thing. 

Same with this guy, if he upped his game on the safety, responsibility and experience front, stopped taking stupid risks with his clients safety, dropped the ego and chose to learn from those more experienced than him, concentrated on his clients rather than on filming stuff for publicity, and stuck to his remit as ML then he could be just the sort of 'cheeky chappie' who'd be ideal to inspire groups of kids or newbie walkers in the mountains.

Yes, but how is that going to satisfy the insta-generation?

He has done the ML and someone has passed him!

My firm belief isn’t that these videos are deliberately made to look more scary than they are. The girl doesn’t look worried, the guys in the winter are not bumbling around. 

As I say, I’ve been following him for a while and seen a lot of videos. I know he has two channels and I think this one has been set up recently deliberately to target his guiding business. 

Assuming the BMC, or whoever is in charge of issuing ML awards and maintaining standards, keep proper records, it shouldn’t be too hard for them to contact him and find out exactly what’s going on. 

Bear has a safety team just out of sight and a warm hotel room. What you see on videos isn’t always real. 

I have to admit, I've been subscribed to Brave Dave's channel for a while now. It's so gloriously cringey, I can't look away! Even for a second...

It's only a matter of time before he kills himself, or someone else, and I wonder what sort of liability there will be for whoever passed his assessment!? Are they in any way liable?

I didn't know that scrambling was out of the remit of ML's. I'm actually surprised by that, as I thought ropework and scrambling was covered. I'm booked onto Summer ML training in October and a 30m rope is on the recommended kitlist.

Quite. Are we supposed to walk around the hills, stick to the paths and not touch the rocks with our hands now?

If you passed your driving test then crashed would your driving instructor be liable?

Scrambling is included in the ml scheme, but if the rope is used for anything other than confidence roping (on non serious, non technical terrain) or in an emergency then the ml is outside of remit. Most MLS are only insured for staying within the remit of their qualification/s. In this instance there is no way for Dave to safeguard his client in the event of a slip or fall and is well outside of the remit of an ML (assuming he doesn't have further insurance cover). 

To give an idea of what is appropriate, scrambles like tryfan north ridge and crib coch would be considered top end for an ml with good weather conditions and the right group ( ie experienced or well able).

That was what crossed my mind, given the descriptions I've read.

I don't think that's a good thing...

The streets are policed to make sure drivers maintain the standard expected. 

If you can issue an ML ‘licence’ but there are no follow up checks or policing then I question the validity of the award. 

Wonder how many MLs frequently take their clients scrambling, but just don’t post scary YouTube clips. 

It's not a licence to lead. It's an assessed training scheme with training pre-requisites and a long-established process.  It just happens to be the one accepted by the 'industry' and is the one most recognised by insurers, the HSE and other relevant bodies and organisations.

Plenty of MLs take clients onto graded scrambling routes. There are safer, less committing and more appropriate scrambles than Bryant's Gully.

You don't need an ML award to lead people (adults anyway) in the British mountains, and Dave Tew should be allowed to continue his personal adventures and risk his own life.

BUT - if someone is using the work of other in creating, maintaining and working with a long-established training scheme to sell his inexperience, recklessness and general feckwittery to unsuspecting punters then he deserves to be roundly ridiculed, criticised and called a knob.

I'm pretty sure forklift instructors can face charges, but I'm not sure what sort of time constraints are involved.

The validity is that it acts as a legal proof of competence in the event of a lawsuit. For the activities it is meant to cover. This guy is operating outside the limits of what the ML qualification is meant to cover. One slip by a paying client on this sort of ground will probably lead to serious injury or death. Then he will probably have a lawsuit coming his way.

What’s so difficult to understand about that.

But referring back to the comments he made in his now deleted video, when pressed on this he said something along the lines of "but his client's won't fall" !!!

It’s no more a proof of competence than an MOT certificate is a proof of road worthiness. 

I’d suggest it’s a qualification that you can use to get a job in the industry. Then it would be down to your employers to ensure you receive regular training and updates. 

He said 'hopefully they won't fall' and 'if they keep three points of contact then there is no reason why they should fall'.  Utterly failing to comprehend that the difficulties start when some sort of force majeure means 3 points of contact can't be maintained.

I doubt it would be that cut and dried. If the client was confident and experienced and Dave is just guiding the route, why should she then be roped up and wear a helmet just to satisfy everyone else’s view of what is and isn’t safe? 

Forklift drivers and instructors are operating purely within a work environment. 

He kind of reminds me of Karl Pilkington. 

If she was confident and experienced then why should she need a guide?  She was reasonably scared I'd say as could be seen with her reaction to the moment when Dave said "sh*t's about to get real" as he gazed higher up the scramble.

But that is all academic because Dave, as an ML shouldn't be guiding that scramble in the first place since with any grade 2/3 scramble then there is a reasonable chance that a rope would need to be used.

I think you are confusing personal responsibility in the hills (if we are acting independently then we all have a decision whether to use a helmet or not in any given situation), with the responsibilities of someone who is supposed to be acting with a duty of care for a paying and inexperienced client.

Guiding = duty of care

Duty of care = suitable measures put in place to ensure safety. 

I could have the most experienced client in the world, but if I'm responsible for their safety, I'll damn sure be following best practice for the terrain I'm on.

And if you're charging someone to guide them that is also a work environment.

So whoever passed Dave would be hauled over the coals if there’s an accident? 

I've got to admire him, if anyone does shell out that amount of cash, good luck to him!
Can't argue with his T&Cs

I've done gravel train hopping in the past, it's great fun.

Quite. That’s a brilliant tongue in cheek send up.

“*not really.” probably sums it up well, but I bet he still gets emails about it.

He’s not allowed into North America.

To use the driving analogy again.

If you drove fine in your test, then after drank a bottle of whisky (invalidating your insurance) then crashed why on earth would your driving instructor get hauled over the coals?

They wouldn’t as learning to drive isn’t done as a workplace activity like learning to drive a forklift truck is. 

No more than your driving instructor would be locked up if you choose to drink-drive after you've passed your test. You know it's wrong but you do it anyway (pretending it's ok to yourself makes no difference)

Not necessarily because there was an accident, but because he clearly has no understanding of acceptable risk. His lack of understanding should have been evident on his assessment.

I've watched all of his scrambling videos and he doesn't appear to ever stay on route. He doesn't appear to use guide books. He climbs up sections that doesn't think he can down climb!? This all shows very poor judgement.l and a general lack of know how imho.

The fact it should have been “evident on his assessment” still leans me towards someone who does actually know what they’re doing and just has a more lenient view of risk. This is a guy who freight hopped across the US. His view of what’s dangerous isn’t going to be the same as yours or mine.

Isn’t that the idea of scrambling? There’s often no specific route, you just pick whatever looks interesting as you go. 

Many people claim to have scrambled Tryfan several times and never gone the same route twice. 

Are you honestly saying that because he has a distorted view of risk, we should view his actions differently when he is “guiding” people?

To an extent. I'll give an example:

A couple of years ago, I attempted Bristley Ridge. I'd seen it in a guidebook about 10 years previously, but never got round to doing it. I forgot my guidebook on this trip, but decided to attempt it anyway.

I started in the wrong gully, but it wasn't beyond my ability, so I just climbed away and it was enjoyable, but I was aware that I could be on the wrong route. I got all the way to the great pinnacle and looked up at the almost flat wall (I didn't know at the time, that the route moved round the side of the pinnacle)... I knew I'd struggle to down-climb it, if it become too hard to continue, so I backed off the route.

Now, I could've gone straight up the pinnacle, and maybe I'd have been fine, but maybe isn't an acceptable risk. You should know your own ability.

You keep using arguments that are fine as justification for an individual's actions (rock lobbing without warning aside) but not for a guide.

Just done my training not too long ago Scott. ML does not cover "planned use of a rope". The rope work is to safeguard people generally on retreat, as it's usually safer to retreat than climb higher. Obviously this isn't always the case but that's the general rule. 

Scrambling is in that grey area as to who needs or wants a rope is very personal. I personally think, and heard nothing to dispute this from the instructors, that Grade 1 scrambles are within remit. But several instructors have said that guiding people on Crib Goch is the worst day as an ML as there is very little that can be done to safeguard them once committed. I see that he took 4 beginners along there in high winds....

Finally you need to be comfortable on grade 1 ground, at least for PyB, not necessarily to lead groups on it but so you have a bit in reserve whilst leading.

He's definitely clueless on that winter scramble, which is most definitely not within SML remit. Don't know if they are clients or not though.

Good luck with your training, it's good fun.

My guess would be not that many. I know lots of indoor and outdoor Climbing Instructors, Mountain Leaders, Guides, etc. and have come across plenty on courses I've done. They're generally very risk-averse and don't act outside their remit or what they're qualified to do. They understand that their livelihood is at risk if they do and being safe and responsible is drilled into them from day 1. Primarily they understand that THEY ALONE are responsible for the safety of others and take it very seriously. 

Anyone of sound mind who knew what they were doing would be. If anything happened to one of your clients, you'd feel terrible about it. Never mind the legal ramifications and the fact that it could end your career. You'd constantly be questioning whether it was your fault and if there was anything you could have done to avoid it. In the case of Brave Dave, the answer would be "Yes, Dave. A f*cking lot of things".

Thanks for the clarification. 👍

Where scrambles are concerned, there are grade 1's and there are grade 1's. 😁

In your analogy Dave is the employer and employee. He should be ensuring he follows best practice and keeping himself up to date with training and methods. If he is, and someone has an accident then so be it, he’s got a good defence and should be ok. The way he is going he has none of this and will be rightly fudged should the worst happen.

As has been pointed out, having an ML qualification is only so relevant without the membership to the relevant accredited society which would monitor standards. If they audited him on this evidence and said he was fine and THEN he killed someone, they would probably be liable. 

Hope he and his clients cray a organ donation card

Quite. I don’t disagree with any of that. 

I’m not sure that a mass internet assault on the guy is the best way to go about it. At best it’s bullying. 

Someone claiming a level of experience and expertise they have no right to and proffering very dodgy advice on that basis? Entirely within the norms of UKC isn’t it.

edit: to be fair though, he definitely cast the first stone in this case.

But could you go on an easy grade 1 scramble and video it in such a way to make it look very frightening? Bear Grylls makes walking on lava look like a death defying feat. 

Some people deserve a good bullying. 

He had his opportunity to not be a total bellend at the start when qualified, respected members of the climbing community were trying to help him. Had he responded pragmatically, he wouldn't be catching this heat. He chose instead to respond like a child so he's getting picked on like one.  

At best it’s giving the guy a reality check, helping to maintain some credibility in the outdoor industry and saving someone from death or serious injury.

At worst Brave Dave isn’t very happy.

Not the case, a lot of us seem to seeing the same potential train wreck with the guy’s approach to his job. I’m more concerned for his clients of course, but also to see he heeds some sensible advice for his own protection, if he mugged up a bit and put the effort in maybe he could make a good honest living this way. If not he’s heading for court.

Be brave Dave.

Course you can, people do it all the time. However, this wasn’t an easy grade 1 scramble and he was putting his client in genuine danger as a consequence of his cavalier attitude and poor decision making.

Plus remember that if somebody like bravedave is involved in a nasty accident with a paying client there will be repercussions for a lot of far more sensible people in the outdoor industry.

I don’t know if you caught the you tube comments before he took it down, it was by and large very polite and all the professional outdoor people offered considered and polite advice. For an internet pile on it was very mild and the concern was real, bearing in mind some of the persons were MRT and would be responsible for clearing up the mess.

I think you’ll find everyone was being quite supportive of him on YouTube, giving him loads of great advice to which he told everyone f*ck off. He’s a knob. 

and others.

Given its perfectly simple to email him, isn’t that a more sensible approach? Publicly calling out peoole in Internet forums and on YouTube never results in a good outcome.  

I've just e.ailed BraveDave to ask if he's orga ising any Himalayan trips

I fancy lobbing a few boulders down the Khumbu glacier

Eh?

If their preferred method of interaction with the wider public is youtube.... expect people to reply on YouTube.

i think you’ve got your pants in a twist over the wrong things and can’t find a way to back out. It’s ok to change your mind. 

You live by the sword etc

Bearing in mind he was using the video to toute for business it probably was the place

My pants aren’t in a twist. I’m just trying to be a bit more rational. 

I have experience of talking directly to organisers of events when things have gone wrong. They don’t tend to make public statements on forums but always reply to considered emails. I also organise events where public interaction with clients have to be handled properly.

Advertising your business online is a very difficult balancing act. I wouldn’t enter into open ended conversation online with anyone who was negative about an event. Replies would be close ended and ask to contact via email to resolve. 

He obviously got it wrong there, I don’t know, I didn’t see the replies I just saw a load of people jumping in on the video comments, whether that’s done sensitively or well meaning it’s still criticism. 

There’s no live by the sword die by the sword.

No. It just isn’t. It doesn’t work both ways in that situation. 

I can only thank the guy for bringing back a  good ole ukc ranting thread. It's been so long! You got to grin when folk forget the topic and descend into insults at each other.  

Numerous well qualified mountaineering instructors, guides, assessors, you name it, pointed out that he is acting outside of his remit as an ML.

He resorted to call everyone keyboard warriors and armchair experts.

He got off lightly IMO

As I say. It’s not the place. I wouldn’t have replied. 

Some people emailed. Some people offered to go for a pint with him. Some people spoke to MT / MTA about it.

Apparently he’s making a video reply... 

Alexa - order popcorn

That’s all very well and good... but you aren’t him and he’s done things very differently. Why are you trying to argue that because you would do things one way and expect a certain response that he should get the same response when he’s acted so completely differently. 

I’m sure you knickers are arranged properly. I was just pointing out that IF you had picked the wrong side of an argument it’s ok to backtrack and admit when you’re wrong rather than continue fighting the good fight... purely hypothetical obviously. 

I’m not wrong. I’m not arguing. I’m just putting across a point of view. My point of view doesn’t change just because it doesn’t match yours. My point of view is based on my experience.

What’s your experience? Do you guide? Do you have a business with an online presence or any experience of dealing with large numbers of potential clients online? 

Brave Dave doesn't seem to do "considered" though, and if anyone reading the negative comments his video richly deserved is put off from wasting their money on his "guiding" services, then that can only be a good thing. Probably saved the local MRT a job too.

Tried to open your link - it's been pulled

That’s your opinion from watching some videos. 

The guy is an ML. Someone somewhere has assessed him. 

But he’s not operating in line with the training he has received and completed. Not my opinion, the judgement of the guy who literally wrote the handbook. He is gaining legitimacy from using that qualification whilst doing stuff way beyond it, showing a quite cavalier if not callous attitude towards the safety of his clients. So, pointing out he has completed a course really proves nothing. 

I've got a driving licence, doesn't mean I can fly a helicopter. 

Is it so hard to understand that he may have behaved differently on assesment day?

That idiot in the BMW who cut you up managed, at some point in time, to drive in a manner that allowed him to pass his driving test. We don't blame the driving test examiner for his subsequent behaviour. 

Quite apart from the fact that what he was being assessed for, and what he's now doing, are two different things. 

Jesus Christ. 

Your experience of what? Pointing out someone is being unsafe in a youtube video? You’re getting defensive and arguing for he sake of it. Paddle back a bit and have another think. 

The guy is poor at what he’s doing. He was a knob about it. You’re trying to defend him. 

I think there were a few people that did message him privately and got the same nobhead responses he was dishing out on the comments. 

What he's doing would be like me getting a CWI and then guiding people up trad routes. The general public wouldn't know any better but it's essentially fraud. 

Quite. And what our Dancing friend is ignoring is that he is, on his website, deliberately targeting those without the knowledge and experience.to realize how downright sketchy his practices are.  To suggest that he shouldn't be called out on a platform that he is touting for such individuals is irresponsible. 

Totally agree, a quick straw poll of those online who are seemingly impressed by his 'ever so daring' antics, not many seem to have much in the way of mountain or outdoor experience - otherwise, if they did they wouldn't be impressed.

He seems to be both fraudulently exaggerating his own qualifications and experience, whilst at the same time misleading gullible people into believing that what he's doing is somehow extreme and 'out there' when really it's mostly beginner level scrambling.  Again feels like fraud!

As for the train hopping stuff it's illegal yes, but I suspect in the absence of overhead power lines, it's really no more dangerous than the millions of people who routinely ride on the outside of trains just to get to and from work every day in India.

Still there are plenty who are easily impressed it seems?

Why is it fraud? If they’re beginners and he’s advertising an extreme experience, and for them it will be an extreme experience, then that’s both parties satisfied. That’s what I’m not getting. It’s almost like scrambling is some kind of elite club that only members of UKC who have a SPA are allowed to indulge and comment on.

The whole world is easily impressed, you just need to work out what impresses each individual. 

I had a friend who had been working up to and training very hard to ‘climb’ Snowdon. Thousands of people climb it every year. For someone who never leaves the city it’s an extreme adventure. 

For you or I who can run up and down it before breakfast it’s just another big hill. 

Is an ML who takes a party up Snowdon also being fraudulent? After all it’s got a massive path up it that people do in T-shirt’s and sandals. 

Because he is claiming to be qualified and (presumably) insured. He is neither. 

Are you being intentionally dumb?

The fraud isn’t that he’s claiming the things he does is extreme. The fraud is he’s claiming he’s capable and accredited to be guiding people up them when he’s not. 

Its like me claiming to be an lawyer and advising on a case when I’ve only passed the basic qualification which is enough for me to work in an admin role. I MIGHT know enough to fool people that don’t know better, and I might even get it right sometimes, but I still shouldn’t be doing it and the Law association (or whatever) would f*ck my shit up if they found out. 

Best comment I've read on the forum for a long time.

He has replied. 

youtube.com/watch?v=JbM6cSHdOuU&

This is in reply to everyone, its not a gripe, I'm not a Troll, whatever that is and I'm not trying to be smart. However deranged and fraudulent you might all feel that this chap is, there is no HSE/HMRC/NGB/Police/Government legislation that can stop him from 'guiding' anyone on anything. If he has sufficient and appropriate experience and has insurance to cover any claims he's in the clear. Perhaps he's having you (us) all on, you've all spent quite a lot of time reading the posts and replies and looking at Youtube vids about him and he probably loves the attention. To me, he's a bit of a Bear Grylls, dangerous.

Why does he insist on calling himself a mountain guide?

I guess he can call himself anything he likes, it depends on his own perception of what a guide is, or can be in his eyes.

Sorry to but in there the_mark. 

Is there a difference between a mountain leader and a mountain guide? Or is it just tomayto tomahto? 

I'm not being a d1ck (Not intentionally anyway), just curious about the distinction..

Nothing legally stopping him calling himself a Mountain Guide, however it does suggest that he meets the IFMGA requirements of a BMG. He doesn’t, he (taking his word) holds an ML(S). The former being the pinnacle of the profession, the latter an entry level qualification.

Mountain Leader training pre reqs: You must have recorded a minimum of 20 Quality Mountain Days (Mountain walking)

Mountain Guide pre training registration: 
At least 50 multi-pitch climbs led at El 5b or above in a wide variety of areas in the UK. Technical leads at E3 5c are recommended as this ensures that the applicant is consistent at E1 5b.
A comprehensive list of at least 50 snow and ice climbs of Grade III and above, of which 20 must be at Grade V or above. Over 70% (thirty five) of these should be in the Scottish mountains in a variety of areas. Non-UK experience may also be taken into consideration e.g. ice grade 4 in France or Canada, but the majority of experience logged must be UK/Scottish.
A general mountaineering history including hill walking in the UK and Ireland, mountaineering and camping experience

Twenty ascents of major summits, ten of which must be TD or harder.
A variety of experience including rock, snow/ice and mixed (mentioning any winter ascents)
As a guideline, experience in the European Alps should include a minimum of twenty routes, at least ten of which should be Alpine TD standard or above. Of these ten routes five should be at least 800 metres in length and be mixed routes of a serious and committing nature (i.e. classic North faces or similar).

Provide details of skiing ability on and off-piste including a minimum of thirty listed days of ski-mountaineering experience in glaciated Alpine terrain. Fifteen days or more of the thirty listed days must be linked days consisting of at least three consecutive nights in huts on recognised tours. Ski touring and skiing expeditions outside of Europe will be considered but the majority of ski-touring experience must be in the European Alps. Applicants are expected to ski all pisted runs with good style and demonstrate good balance, posture and control whilst skiing linked-parallel turns of varying radius. Applicants should cope well in all off-piste conditions showing the ability to ski safely, effectively and in control.

I think he's done himself some good with the video.

Admits to the most obvious piece of  misbehaviour, explains a few other things regarding his assessment of his client's competence, comes across as a fairly reasonable bloke, seems to understand about internet forum feeding frenzies and takes it in his stride.

I actually think that if he didn't go by "Brave Dave" he would have a smoother ride.

It was a better reply than I was expecting... He directly addresses the original point I was making.

Having started this, I'll leave it here.  Let's move on as Mr Pink would say.

I'm glad I linked the video on here

Brave Dave vs UKC ranting mob. 

Guess he won!

He’s still confusing the terminology a little. At different points refers to himself as ‘a guide’, ‘guiding’ and a ‘mountain leader’. Now we can be a mountain leading who is guiding someone but to be a mountain leader who refers to themselves as ‘a guide’ is still a little misleading imo.

Also when referring to the YouTube comments and the UKC comments these receive a general joint response. This is ambiguous, you’d have to have followed each thread to know when he is referring to which.

Totally appalling that he received death threats - (YouTube) but that is the nature of open source social media (unless you have comments disabled/though I guess there is still private messaging?) but not sure if it was made clear those threats were made on YouTube rather than the ‘climbing forum’. To the casual observer this may not be clear.

Lastly to describe the interest from third parties as ‘descending vultures’  is a little unflattering. A freelance outdoor instructors fb page has been a little less impressed by the respond video it seems. 

Same thing then? 😂

Thanks for the comprehensive reply! I really had no idea how many different qualifications are out there!?

This has been an interesting and eye opening thread all round.

Most sensible people would assume that someone calling themselves a mountain guide is an IFMGA guide (or similarly accredited) - the pinnacle of the profession as mentioned above, and covers everything up to guiding in the high mountains and on glaciated terrain, on technical routes and to a high standard, worldwide.

In comparison, the summer ML is a UK-only entry-level qualification which shows people are competent to lead people on walks in the hills in summer.

There's no law to say he can't call himself a mountain guide, but it's disingenuous in the extreme. It's like having a driving licence and selling yourself as a commercial pilot.

Death threats? I haven't seen any death threats in the Youtube comments (but then again, I haven't seen them up to the point he'd pulled the video)

Of course, he could be playing on our heart strings and making it up...

He refers to one repeated message where the responder said ‘they would kill him if they saw him in the mountains’ - it’s in the reply/response video though I never saw the (original) comment myself 

Dave, same guy?

youtube.com/watch?v=3VtPgxPxiK0&

It's not in the screenshots I have (future article notes)

Perhaps they were pm’s?

Anyways he says it in his reply, whether or not it (the threats) actually happened or not, I’m not going to get into on here. 

Hmmm a response, but apart from the rock throwing/helmet apology he's completely failed to address the fact that his remit as ML does not allow him to lead/guide (or whatever you want to call it), paying customers up that kind of terrain.  And Bryant's Gully is high grade 2, low grade 3 depending on which guidebook you read so not exactly only a little bit over his remit - it's quite a lot over.

I feel sorry that some people have have resorted to name calling or whatever but I do feel like Dave, through his sometimes immature, deliberately obtuse and often condescending replies to the genuine concerns shown has kind of bought this on himself.  I really think he needs to listen more and talk less.

I also doubt very much (although I stand to be corrected) whether his insurance would cover this, leaving his clients and himself in a very shaky position should an accident happen.  Again he didn't clarify or acknowledge this in the video either.

Sadly it sounds to me like he's just made up a video to fob of a few of his critics so that he can justify repeating the same with clients in the future.  I really hope that's not the case.

His justification of it being a short scramble, escapable and not being grade 2 overall because it only has short sections of grade 2 is all rubbish. 

I’ve done the route and it’s over 500m long, in fact one of the longest routes of its kind in north wales. It’s not particularly escapable without resorting to exposed steep heather slopes and remember that this entire side of the valley terminates in very steep crags below (Carreg Wastad, Craig Ddu, Clogwyn y Grochan etc) and this route is one of the few weaknesses to reach the upper mountainside. 

His justification of the grade, apparently not even knowing the name of the route or having a guidebook tells me that he isn’t a seasoned mountain scrambler. As an ML myself I would have a confidence rope in my bag leading any client on grade 1 terrain just in case, as many have said this is the upper limit of the qualification. 

He is entertaining but clueless, that could be part of his act though?

Couldn't agree more. Never heard of Bryant's Gully but now am quite determined to give it a look.

If you do, make sure you look out for falling rocks that seem to appear from nowhere...

UKC Hilltalk thread, July 2022....Park early if you want some solitude on this popular, polished classic Welsh scramble. Details can be found in Cicerones Brave Daves (OBE)  classic scrambles, Vol 2.    

“Most sensible people”?

Nonsense. Most people in the UK think climbing Mount Snowdon is an extreme mountain climb.

Fairly predictable comments on YouTube to the ‘response’ video.

‘Haters gunna hate’ ‘keep doing what you do’ ‘your (sic) awesome’ etc....

Along with a few very well written ‘proper’ responses still advising that he’s working out of scope/remit so it’s clearly made no difference in how he is perceived.

His followers (sounds like a cult)  appear unfazed, those that know better are still concerned.  

He does say he's only going to be leading grade 1 scrambles in future at the end of that video. It's slightly annoying that he addresses the extremists more than the qualified but that he's taken on board a lot of the criticism makes him more responsible than many idiots abroad... 

None of whom I'd describe as sensible people in this context.

Don't do Cauldron Gully by mistake, like I did!

No they don’t. Most think it is a train ride where you can walk up if you want, but what’s the point.

I'm not a regular contributor to UKC but have a browse regularly..

Anyway I was thinking about this subject and wondered if part of the problem was the sheer number of people who hold an ML and the number of providers diluting the award? I remember when I did mine nearly 20 years ago now and I couldn't possibly imagine someone like BraveDave getting through the award with such limited experience. When I did mine I had an enforced 2 year consolidation period due to my age- 18 at training. It obvious from his Youtube videos that his breadth of knowledge is very limited, yes he may have the required competencies which were tested at assessment but I wonder how well his logbook would stand up to questioning? I remember I was quizzed over mine at the time to make sure mine was accurate and I was also told to go and experience other areas before assessment even though I had gained over the minimum (walks plus the 3(?) different areas).

Also after having a look at his FB profile does anyone think that the girl in the first video which is now deleted looks very similar to the one on his profile pick? Wouldn't surprise me given his Mr Bulls@#t approach to some things.

Just a few Monday morning thoughts!      

Must explain why so many of them do it it clothes and footwear more suited to the high street. Even my most non-climber friends view Snowdon as a day-out walking (a challenging one) rather than an 'extreme mountain climb'

I wondered that, in which case not a client at all?  She's on his FB navigation video too!  If that's the case then some real smoke and mirrors stuff going on here!  Potentially a spiders web of lies and half truths?  Maybe seeking publicity through controversy perhaps?

Perhaps you mean ‘experienced climbers’ rather than ‘sensible people’?

My god. Get over yourself. How many adverts have you seen on the TV that contain real people in real scenarios? 

The video shows him leading an experienced scrambler up parts of a gully. That’s pretty accurate as far as I can see. Promotional videos are all over the internet. Take them at face value. 

My god, if you really take promotional videos at face value I have a bridge to sell you.

Quite.

No one does, do they?

Ah, the Edinburgh defence.

It doesn't mean you can put any old crap in adverts.

What's a grade 4 scramble? I thought in summer grades max out at 3 and then you're into Dif territory?

I can't believe how many screens he's got at Brave Dave HQ.

personally I thought his response was fairly well measured, apologetic where it needed to be, and a good insight for any beginners knowing what they might be getting in to - a tough day out, with an enormous amount of slightly annoying commentary (to me anyway) along the way. 

He's aiming for the tough-mudder, brutal events type clientele, so he needs to make it out to be more extreme than it is, and the response actually downplays that.

Would this be an argument for the job of Mountain Guide to be added to the list of protected professions, given the seriousness of the job and the skill involved.

Does that mean I have to put on hold my plans for 'Unsuited Diluteds Titanium Adventures'  Hip replacements done for only £390, all fully insured, I have my First Aid at work and everything! 

Unsuited Diluted,  putting the 'tit' into Titanium.

I would be very uneasy about introducing that level of regulation into any leisure activity.

It’s for this reason that there’s a general understanding that people who aren’t IFMGA mountain guides (e.g. Brave Dave), don’t refer to themselves as mountain guides. Brave Dave isn’t the first one to be a dick about it though...

Who is the ‘general understanding’ with? Is it an unwritten rule made up by Mountain Guides, or is it a code. If it’s a code then anyone being assessed on an ML course should have that as part of their test - “What are the various qualifications and what do they mean and allow you to do?” The Summer ML just comes with what you can do, or at least I’m sure mine did when I did it about 20 years ago. (Summer in England and Wales)

I’ve just done a ‘first aid course’ and they pretty much impressed on us that it wasn’t a first aid qualification and we couldn’t call ourselves first Aiders.

Sounds like this isn’t Brave Dave’s issue. After all he is guiding people in the mountains and his ML allows him to do this but people don’t want him to be allowed to call himself a Mountain Guide. That looks like nonsense to me and I understand the technical differences, how anyone else is supposed to automatically know that is beyond me. 

Just out of interest, do you know Dave?

He knows exactly what he's doing when he refers to himself as a Mountain Guide and that is to big himself up to his gullible 'fan club' that he has been bullshitting for the last few years or so.
He was also reminded a fair few times on the original YouTube posting that he wasn't a Mountain Guide and that he was being at best disingenuous in referring to himself as one. 

Why don't you take a step back for a second and answer these questions? :

How would you feel as an accredited mountain guide (having trained and worked hard for many years to achieve this title) to have a bullshitter and 'short cut' corner-cutter like Brave Dave come along and call themselves a guide, possibly taking away some of your regular scrambling work in the process, possibly with the risk of dragging the whole guiding profession through the mud if an incident occurred?

How would you feel as a client to find out that having booked Brave Dave at premium Guide rates, it turns out he was operating outside his remit, leading on terrain he's not been trained for, not employing best practice (as a Guide would) to keep you as safe as possible, and that he or you are not adequately insured for the activities you are undertaking?

I have to agree with this, as I didn't even know there was a distinction, before reading this thread.

I've been walking/climbing in the mountains for 20 years on and off, but never really paid any attention to the qualifications (apart from briefly flirting with the idea of doing the Summer ML). I'm finally doing the training this year, but I'm sure that's more about me regretting not doing it in the past, than working to attain the higher guiding qualifications (there's only so much time left.. ).

Whilst I think Dave is misguided, I don't believe he's maliciously lying about his qualification.

EDIT: I stand corrected - he did a ML with the MTA and can be found in the public list - just not under the surname given as his on his website

As to calling his creds whatever he wants - I suppose you would want to know if your electrician or gas technician rebuilding your house has the mandatory legislated qualifications, and would be rightly pi**ed off if he didn't (or was a canalisation plumber who did your gas installation, "because it's all just plumbing and pipes after all, right?").

For all I care otherwise, he could call himself an International Mountain / Accredited Super Scrambler (tm) and charge exorbitant prices for it (hey, perhaps I should trademark that!)

In reply to Harry Jarvis:

I stand corrected and do apologise! I did search only for the name "Bravid" that he gives on his adventure website, could not find the real one there. Although, for the sake of not "sh*t-naming" anybody on the public internet and benefit of doubt, you might perhaps want to edit the name out. Or perhaps not.

He was named further up the thread. Given his confidence in his abilities and his standing, I don't see why his name should not be public knowledge. 

It has absolutely nothing to do with ‘how I would feel’, at the moment that’s all it is. A few accredited guides having their noses put out of joint. Membership of the association isn’t even mandatory. 

Its illegal to fit gas or certify electrics if you are not certified. If the Mountain Industry is serious about this and not just worried about having their jobs undermined or noses misaligned then they should start by making membership of the association mandatory in order for the award to be current. At least then everyone can start advertising they’re a member and the association can warn people about unqualified guides at hotels, campsites and car parks. And the public can look up the guide’s qualifications.

Until then stop bellyaching. 

Except that some randomers have sent him death threats. Probably some bored 14 year olds but nevertheless. 

Death threats are utterly inexcusable. Anyone stooping to those depths should be utterly ashamed and should have a damned good look at themselves. 

I see, missed that. It's a rather long thread already

My concern was only with people changing few years from now and the mentioned randoms (such threads do have a way of snowballing out of proportion on the internet) - although probably everything here might be just advertisement for this guy anyway

Still, I know a few people with full UIMLA qualifications, and they would not ever dare calling themselves "mountain guides", always "mountain leaders". In all their communications and social media. Dishonesty not only could and would hurt their work, but would not really fit within the mountain and climbing culture...

So failing to completely see anyone else's point of view then?  Stop avoiding the question and dismissing the genuine concerns of others - that's what Brave Dave does!

I'll ask you again, if you booked say one of your nearest and dearest onto a scrambling course with this guy (a guide) and then found out he wasn't qualified, adequately trained or insured, and acting in a manner that's completely blase about his clients safety, would you not be even in the slightest bit concerned?

what did he do? Video removed

The video was of him 'guiding' a young woman up a somewhat sketchy grade 2(ish) scramble.  He's not really doing that though, so much as just climbing a few metres ahead of her whilst filming with a gopro or similar (hand held, mostly) and occasionally giving her some verbal instructions.

On the video (and on his website) it's strongly implied that this is a client that he's leading professionally - they're well outside the remit of his summer ML qualification, and as the (remarkably patient, friendly and polite) comments on the video from some highly qualified people pointed out he's also well outside anything a professional guide/leader/whatever would consider to be good practice.

There's a fair bit of loose rock around, and neither of them are wearing helmets. 

"What happens at 1:53" is that he comes across a loose spike of rock a bit smaller than a housebrick, waggles it about and works it free then just casually chucks it down into the gully out of sight below.

And I’ll say again, that has absolutely nothing to do with it. 

How would you feel if someone passed the wiring on your house instead of condemning it?

The answer is it doesn’t matter how you feel. The point is it’s illegal. You could feel fine about it, great you can sell your house without rewiring it.

The same is not true with mountain guiding. Paid for a good day out. Did a grade one scramble. No one died. The guy leading it had some ‘qualification’ that’s not even legally required for leading in the mountains BUT had the temerity to call himself a Mountain Guide! Which also is not even a legally recognised essential requirement.

Seriously. It’s not about feelings it’s about the law. And there is no law that says you can’t call yourself whatever you want. 

Instead of complaining to Brave Dave, or whining to me and UKC in general about the end of civilisation, complain to the BMC, get the Mountain Leader Association involved. 

Or just continue being some random armchair internet warrior. Really it’s that simple. 

Just out of (continuing) interest, do you know Dave?

You're getting the analogy wrong.  The correct question here is - how would you feel if the guy you booked to rewire your house told you he was a fully qualified and insured electrician, and then you found out that he wasn't qualified, wasn't insured, and bodged a few bits that didn't really understand?

The biggest problem with this idiot isn't that he's passing himself off as a guide - it's that he's telling his clients he is qualified and insured when he is neither.

I’d take him to court. 

Brave Dave is qualified and insured to do what he does. 

Indeed.  But what *is* a legal requirement is that he exercises a reasonable duty of care towards his client(s).  It's not essential to hold any specific qualification to do that but it is essential to have the knowledge and experience to do it, and if anything goes wrong anyone who does not hold the formal qualification had better have some way of demonstrating an equivalent level of competence.

Nobody gets hurt in the video that's now been removed but it's not hard to imagine how easily the day could have gone differently, and with his client or some third party killed or injured it's also not hard to imagine how he might have found himself legally in deep shit.  Some of those giving him friendly advice in the youtube comments would be quite likely to be called as expert witnesses for the prosecution.

Hm.  Interesting turn of phrase you've chosen there.  Seems familiar from somewhere.

Edit to add (from a later post):

Not what he does in the (now pulled) video that originally inspired this thread.  Not even close.

Allegedly... 

In fairness whether he's done this in the past or not we really don't know that he's doing that now.

There's a fair bit of hype on his website, and I wouldn't buy a mail-order pair of socks via a website with no contact details (no address, landline phone, not even a plausible real name) let alone arrange to pay top dollar in advance for a 'guide' to keep me safe in terrain where I'm out of my depth.  But is there anything on there to say that he is taking clients beyond the remit of a summer ML?

He isn’t qualified to do the type of route in question.

He may have the correct insurance. If he’s bought the MTA organised policy, it wouldn’t cover him.

Indeed, the phrase was deliberately lifted from his apology video and aptly describes a lot of the UKC regular posters. 

If you sign off an electrical installation without the relevant qualification you have broken the law. You don’t need to have an accident. 

If you take a client up a mountain without the ML qualification or even having described yourself as a Mountain Guide, you have not broken any laws. 

There is no ‘qualification’!

Qualified?  Not for what he did in that video.  And it's really not acceptable for someone with an ML qualification to essentially say 'oops - was that not in remit?' as he has.  If he wasn't paying attention to that part of his training, I wonder what else he missed.

He claims he'll stick to grade 1 from now on - I'm not sure if I believe that.  Given that he only got his ML a few months ago, yet refers to 'guided adventures I lead last year' in January, he's clearly not too fussed about sticking to the rules.

Insured?  As Jez says, not if he has the standard MTA insurance.  I guess it is just possible that he has insurance to act beyond his remit... but that's extremely expensive and given his attitude towards insurance I very much doubt it!

So, I concede - he might be acting within remit now.  He certainly wasn't.  And I'd wager a lot (perhaps a free day out with Brave Dave?) that if you emailed him in a month and asked him to 'guide' you up a grade 2 he'd say yes.

I take it it’s you in the videos then (the ‘client’)?

You’ve down graded the scramble to a 1 in a previous response. Dave himself admits it’s a 2 (sections of 2 blah blah still a grade 2) 

Overall if anyone’s that inclined the HSE can investigate on a tip off (this is before any incident has occurred). 

I’m sure no one wants to go down that path but it is an option nonetheless. 

Just because it’s not required by law doesn’t mean there is no qualification...

There is a qualification framework. Whether someone decides to be involved in it is up to them.

Ps. You previously said “Brave Dave is qualified and insured to do what he does. “

Good grief.

Next time I get clouted on the head in the mountains I'll know who to blame

Quite. There are two types of qualification. 

Passing an A level in maths is a qualification. 

Passing a driving test is a qualification.

One is required for you to legally carry out a task. It’s not illegal for you to carry out differential calculus if you don’t have an A level in maths. 

There is a qualification to be an ML but you don’t need an ML to lead people in the mountains and you don’t need a qualification to call yourself a Mountain Guide. 

That’s all there is to it.

As I say, it’s all very well the gnashing and wailing of teeth and the ‘won’t someone think of the children’ attitude, but unless BMC and MLA are prepared to try and get a law passed and enforce bad guiding there’s not a lot anyone can do. 

As I say, it would be simple enough to run a few adverts and putting up a few posters in tourist hotspots warning people to use official leaders registered with the association. 

The issue is that he isn't saying that, he's justifying his actions and proving his experience by way of his ML, which in this case is not appropriate as the terrain is well out of the scope of an ML

If he was just claiming to be experienced, he would still get criticised because he is clearly not displaying safe practice, let alone good practice.

Indeed. But who is going to stop him and many others, some of whom may not even have ML certificate?

Lots of people complaining, no one proposing any solutions. 

He has taken money from paying clients who believed they were getting someone qualified and insured for the routes they were doing.  He was, clearly and incontrovertibly, not.  I'd love to see jcm's take on this, but that looks remarkably like obtaining money by deception to me.

If he was cheerfully telling his clients he wasn't qualified and that his insurance was therefore invalid, and they were still happy to pay him, then no problem.  But I doubt that.

I would have though peer review and public comment by those that know better on a well known video sharing platform would do the trick...

People seem to be under the misconception that there is a requirement to have a certificate in order to instruct/guide over 18's.  To the best of my knowledge there is not so talk of being out of remit is somewhat academic.  "Qualification"  means more than this and rightly so. With regard to insurance, some years ago I looked into this and the difference in premium between a fully qualified international guide and someone without was only £30/year. I don't know how things stand today but I would have thought insurance was more important than having a certificate. Whilst I would not want to dismiss the certification route it is no guarantee of proficiency.  I have seen "certified" instructors teaching dodgy practices. and I know many of my "uncertified" peers would make good, safe instructors.

Al

In the professional association of diving instructors (PADI) if you break standards you either get suspended or expelled from the association. Your name, association number and centre you were working at are published in the quarterly magazine and available online also.

That goes some way to stop expelled members gaining work whilst attempting to ‘represent’ the association. 

Something like that work here (UK)? 

For Brave Dave...

What’s your plan for all the others leading the public to almost certain death in Snowdonia?

So there is a qualification? I don’t really understand what you’re saying to be honest.

There is a qualification framework. That’s a fact.

BD has engaged in that framework, so must value it.

BD has operated beyond the scope of the ML.

BD has broken no laws.

Nobody died.

Enjoy the rest of the thread anyway. I’m off out.

People don’t seem to be.

The issue to me is that “Brave Dave” appears to be suggesting to potential clients that he has qualifications that doesn’t have. Firstly by stating on his website that he was ML trained, before passing his ML assessment. Secondly, describing himself as a Mountain Guide, rather than a Mountain   Leader and thirdly by suggesting that he is qualified to “Guide” on the terrain shown in the video.

Unqualified, but competent is another matter. I have no problem with unqualified, but competent, honesty is really important here, a potential client needs to be able to make an informed decision.  

I asked Perkins Slade about insurance for working outside of remit a couple of years ago - the answer was very expensive (about six times the standard cost, IIRC).

Tobes: I'd not want to see climbing and mountaineering instruction godown the hyper-formalised route that PADI has.  That's why I feel it's important to call out people who are taking the p1ss.

If they're clients he's at work, and as such perhaps not 'no problem' because he would still have a duty of care towards the clients that he can't legally ignore and they can't simply waive.

Where there is no clearly defined regulation though (as there would be if he was servicing his client's gas boiler, for example), perhaps it remains unclear whether or not a person was breaking the law until *after* the worst happens, he gets charged and eventually the trial jury come back in with their verdict.

It strikes me that had the client in this video fallen, he would most likely have found himself charged with 'gross negligence manslaughter'.  I wouldn't like to guess whether he'd be convicted, though the most measured and authoritative comment I think I've ever seen posted under a youtube video seemed to me to be suggesting he wouldn't have a leg to stand on.

I tried to find an example of someone convicted under similar circumstances, couldn't find one.  (Anyone know of an example?)

I did find an acquittal - Peter Finlay, a scoutmaster, who was eventually cleared of the manslaughter of Jonathan Attwell - a 10 year old scout who was under his care when he fell to his death on Snowdon.

Here are a couple of links about that case:
https://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales-news/scoutmaster-cleared-of-boys-d...
https://www.thebmc.co.uk/judgment-on-scout-death

All this law business aside though, Brave Dave seems like a decent sort at heart.  The aftermath of a serious accident is a difficult thing to live with at the best of times, you ask yourself again and again "Did I do everything I could have to prevent this?" "Was this my fault?" - how much harder would it be to live with if the answers come back "'To be honest Dave, nah not really' and 'yeah, kinda was.'"

I've never seen it written as 4, but some older guidebooks do have 1,2,3 and 3s (severe).

I don't know, but I think he may have done - Health and Safety at Work Act, section 3(1).

Yeah fair one, potentially, I’m no HSE expert, I kind of meant in terms of not having the right ticket

Just out of (continuing) interest, do you know Dave?

I've asked a couple of times.  You seem to be avoiding the question.

There is the concept of best practice in Safety and law, it does not have to be written in law that a particular qualification  has to be used, I work in industry as well as the outdoors and I have to be trained and qualified and experienced to carry out my task. The law doesn’t specify what qualifications I have to have. 

The fact that Dave is aware of the qualifications structure as he has entered it counts against him as he has been made aware of the limitations of his existing qualifications.

training can be CPD, QMD, formal training courses I'm kinda guessing brave Dave hasn’t been down this route.

He is also breaking the cardinal rule of any form of mentoring in life threatening situations diving, canoeing , skydiving climbing etc. you don’t guide at your limit. He has previously posted a video of him on Bryant’s gully where he claimed it was hard and he “wouldn’t want to do that again!!”

And the video in question was his second go with a client in tow, there are reasons why guides and instructors have to be comfortable at a much higher level than the one you would take some out professionally.

British HSE despite popular opinion is not that rigid or prescriptive but does allow you enough rope to hang yourselves and Dave has left himself a very long drop legally and his videos and comments could be brought up in court, as could this forum to be held up that he didn’t follow best industry practice.

Again, has anyone seen these alleged death threats? Dave says they were repeatedly made in the Youtube comments, but I'd followed the discussion on Youtube almost until the video got pulled and I'd seen no such thing.

Alleging that you've been threatened is very common in this type of response videos in order to gain the sympathy of your viewers. Of course, I could be wrong, but I do think that Dave's trying to pull a fast one with this.

I'm no expert on death threats but I would have thought that people who issue them are a bit wary of doing it openly.

PADI is a bit of a joke. From what I can see, it's all just tick boxes and taking money. A friend of mine is a qualified dive master and is still not 100% comfortable taking his mask off underwater!? He can't even snorkel in rough water!

That’s a bit of an old argument - depends on quality of instruction and standards.

My use of PADI as a reference was specifically in regards to the suspension and expulsion of its professional members and the publishing of those details. 

I’m not suggesting MTA adopt the PADI system other than putting the specific point (above) for discussion.

As for the general view of PADI, sure there are some terrible centres, instructors, etc but depends where in the world you are. Where the beach front has dozens of centres the likelihood is it will be a fast track (read sloppy corner cutting) training. But that’s not always the case.

There’s little difference (in a positive way) between diving and diver training in the U.K. whether you’re learning with PADI or BSAC - reasons in general are that the UK tends to have residential diving centres ie 90% are local residents (rather than tourists). This kind of means if you offer poor standards and training people will not return - there aren’t a constant supply of tourists in most parts of the U.K. (learning to dive at least)

Additionally the conditions are more challenging - so whether you’re doing a PADI or BSAC (I know this wasn’t part of your original point but trying to put a bit of perspective on the general world view of PADI) course it’s all quite similar. 

As for your friend-either their instructor failed to notice this or did and didn’t care though your friend could have asked to be deferred/delayed accreditation until they feel more comfortable with that skill (though to get to that stage for DM training something is up if they ‘still’ don’t feel comfortable taking their mask off underwater) I wouldn’t necessarily put all the blame on the DM training/instructor 

Yes - you're absolutely right.  I was only thinking about the insurance/qualification angle, but clearly there is also a duty of care leading to a requirement to be competent and safe.

You're joking right?  So hard to tell sometimes.  The "random armchair expert keyboard warriors" thing is much closer to the truth than that, on a good day.  (On a bad day we're more like a chimps' tea party.)  God help us all the day a real court calls on the court of UKC for expert testimony.

Don't get me wrong there's some really excellent stuff posted here, I've learned a lot reading ukc over the years.  But you do have to be prepared to pick out the best bits one sweetcorn kernel at a time, if you see what I mean.

This thread made me think of David Hooper - I'm sure he'd have had something wise, kind & thoughtful to contribute to a thread like this.  I just checked his profile, hard to believe he's been gone almost seven years already.  RIP

But he says that the threats were repeatedly made in the comments (which again, no one else seems to have seen). In fact, I don't think you can even send Private Messages on Youtube.

Also, he shows a screenshot of every comment he responds to, but nothing about these 'death threats'? Come on now...

As a DM myself then that's not my experience.  I trained in Egypt with an excellent and well regarded dive centre.  Both training and standards were very high.  I can't speak for where your friend was signed off however.

In regards to DM though, much like Mountain Leader, DM is an entry level qualification to the dive profession. Among some other stuff it allows us to guide other qualified divers and to instruct beginners, but only under the supervision of a qualified Instructor.  As DM we cannot take beginners by ourselves, nor certify someone completing an Open Water course.

You sometimes hear about independent divers taking personal risks and pushing things too far.  We had the Blue Hole near us in Egypt which has accounted for over 100 deaths and counting. 

What you don't seem to get with diving (or I've never hear about it anyway) is professional Divemasters taking it upon themselves to teach clients way beyond their remit, e.g. taking beginners on a technical or deep dive for example.  I guess that's because most DM's work for established schools who'll have a reputation to uphold if they want to keep their PADI operators license. 

That said there are plenty of accidental minor transgressions that can occur if a DM is not quite on the ball - e.g. depth certification for a diver being temporarily exceeded etc.  Provided you adjust your dive to remain within your no-decompression limit then these should have no adverse consequences bar a paper certification limit being exceeded.  Nothing like the potential consequences in Brave Dave's video should his client have fallen.

Well put NS. 

Not to totally derail this thread but as a DM you can conduct a try dive/discover scuba independently can’t you? Even in non direct supervision (ie instructor is in ‘the area’ type thing) but not pool/shore side. 

You and I know that these (and I hope any youtube comments) are in jest, but at the same time they are close enough that someone who feels under attack could justifiably construe (or deliberately misinterpret) them as threats.

Not sure - it's been a few years since I've worked as DM so would need to refer back to the PADI manuals.  So far as I was aware you can assist with those, but not run them independently.  Anyway getting slightly off topic so lets get back to ML stuff.

I 'd be very wary about posting anything on the internet making light of killing people whether it was pushing them off a cliff , hacking them to pieces with a machete or blowing them up with a pipe bomb.

I'm trying hard to remember all the comments, but I cannot recall a single threatening one, not even in jest. The only comments referencing death were of the 'Dave's gonna get himself or someone else killed' sort. 

If things took a dive in the 3 hours between when I last read the thread and the video got pulled, and there was indeed some lunatic threatening to throw Dave off a cliff, then I retract everything I've said on the matter. But as it stands, and from the information available, he's making it up.

I think you misunderstand me, I’m pretty sure that a court of law is not going to look too UKC for expert advice, however your social media activities can be held against you in a court and by investigators. 

For instance if a dozen guides/MRT/MIA’s post on social media that your actions are unsafe and you dismiss them, it is still there nothing is deleted on the internet.

Likewise posting a video of you struggling and getting lost on a route and then posting a video of you guiding the same route with a customer the next time isn’t going to go down well in a court.

if we found out that Brave Dave and Dancing on rock are one and the same then maybe this thread could end up in court 😏

😀😂

I didn't read the youtube comments, but quoted two from here that could easily be misrepresented if one was on the defensive and looking to play the victim (for the record I am assuming he also received something more concrete).