Hillwalkers fined

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In reply to tinnishill:

Should have claimed they were special advisors, oh wait that only works in England......

2
 Bacon Butty 25 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

To be honest, getting lost in a bit of mist on The Cobbler and calling MRT out, they deserve to be fined

 Red Rover 25 May 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

I ever understand people who call MRT when they are lost in a mist. Fair enough if you're injured or dangerously cold or stuck on a ledge or something. But what do people expect of the countryside, especially Scottish hills? Did they think they would never be fog? What's wrong with spending a few hours trying to get un-lost?

 Bacon Butty 25 May 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

That topic will have been done to death here on UKC.
For me, I could never be that shameless for calling them out in such circumstances, and the total embarrassment for being so inept and/or bone idle.

 Run_Ross_Run 25 May 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Sorry, do you understand their actions or not. Your post is contradictory. 😉

 Welsh Kate 25 May 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

Don't underestimate the impact that being lost with no or limited visibility can have on someone, especially an inexperienced hillwalker with little knowledge of the hills, navigation etc. It can be very disorientating, and lead to irrational actions and thinking, and panic.

I've been in hill parties that have found lost walkers under such conditions who have literally wept with relief after we've made contact with them because they were convinced they were going to die. They weren't, ever, going to die on the hill that day or night, but that's not what their (failure of) reasoning was telling them. 

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 gavmac 25 May 2020
In reply to Taylor's Landlord:

I actually met 3 'locals' on The Cobbler last year. They asked me, just below the summit, what hill they were on. Bizarre. 

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 Red Rover 25 May 2020
In reply to Welsh Kate:

OK fair enough. I get that is would be scarey and people aren't always rational but don't they consider this kind of thing and have a plan of what to do? Especially in Scotland, I've been up Ben Nevis a few times but I think I've only actually seen it once.

I do remember getting lost in a fog on my own in the dark peak as a kid and shitting myself, but I pulled myself together and followed a stream to get back to civilisation. Probably not a good idea on a mountain though as you could follow it off a cliff.

 Fozzy 26 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

Stop, get inside bothy if required, have a cuppa & a twix (other hill snacks available), take your time to relocate, navigate your way out of it. 
Or, blindly panic & phone for help. Either option works. 

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 Graeme G 26 May 2020
In reply to Fozzy:

> Stop, get inside bothy if required, have a cuppa & a twix (other hill snacks available)

Is there a bothy on the Cobbler? Which ones that?

 GerM 26 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

The take home message being, don't call Mountain Rescue or you'll be fined. Sounds like a worrying way to go to me.

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 Fozzy 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Bothy as in a group shelter. 

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 ABDoddy 26 May 2020
In reply to GerM:

They were presumably fined as they had made an unessential journey to get there - Motherwell is hardly local to the Cobbler...

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 Graeme G 26 May 2020
In reply to Fozzy:

> Bothy as in a group shelter. 

Aahhh.....but who carries one of those on the Cobbler?

But, point taken.

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 rubble 26 May 2020
In reply to GerM:

The take home message being, don't call Mountain Rescue or you'll be fined. Sounds like a worrying way to go to me.

... no, I don't think so ... whilst not knowing the full circumstances of the need for call out, perhaps the message could be:

... don't make unnecessary journeys during the current travel guidelines (other interpretations may be available)

... appreciate that the MRT are non political/judgemental despite having been called out and putting their lives, and the lives of their families and others at risk

... perhaps, when the restrictions are lifted, arrange for advice/instruction to improve navigation skills when anticipating changes in weather conditions

... a wee donation to MRT might not go amiss either

Post edited at 09:56
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 GerM 26 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

All true, but the consequences are the same. As part of the police inland search and rescue capability, at the current time if you call Mountain Rescue there is a risk of police involvement.

If you have a twisted ankle bad enough that if is very painful but possible to walk on, and know that you being on the mountain could be interpereted as braking government guidelines, do you attempt to self rescue and risk worsenig the injury (and make recovery longer and possibly less complete) or call mountain rescue and risk a fine from the police?

Post edited at 10:06
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 DaveHK 26 May 2020
In reply to GerM:

> The take home message being, don't call Mountain Rescue or you'll be fined. Sounds like a worrying way to go to me.

Arrochar MRT have issued a statement to quash that idea. 

 Fozzy 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

I’m only qualified as a (lowly)Lowland Leader, but even I know to carry my shelter, just in case.  

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 rubble 26 May 2020
In reply to GerM:

its quite simple, if you don't break current guidelines you won't be making unnecessary journeys so, not being on the hill and needing MRT to assist you, you will not be fined

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 gravy 26 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

No the take home message is:

- don't go to the hills unprepared (as ever)

- stick to the local lock-down rules (unless you're a senior tory in which case do the f*ck you like especially if you can't face another week without the nanny coming in)

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 GerM 26 May 2020
In reply to rubble:

It isn't simple though is it, it all depends on the interpretation of any police involved at the time. It is also entirely possible to be breaking guidelines and therefore putting that doubt in your mind whether or not you should call MR, whilst still acting within the law.

1
 GerM 26 May 2020
In reply to DaveHK:

Where can the statement be read?

 ScraggyGoat 26 May 2020

Correct very worrying.  I've had a conversation with an old friend last night, highly familiar with Scottish terrain with decades of experience. Whom have asked me to be their 'overdue' point of contact.

They are voting with their feet and are currently out on the hill solo, they feel that they have no recourse in the unlikely event of an accident to call for MRT due to police involvement, negative press-coverage potentially providing ammunition for the 'stay away brigade', and possible ridicule from MRT (lets face it some team  statements recently I never ever thought I would hear from MRT).  They feel so strongly about this that they have even left their PLB at home.

If they become overdue, I and my partner are to look for them. I have to respect their wishes not to instigate a formal call-out.

I suspect lots of similar ad hoc arrangements are going to being made.

Post edited at 10:47
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 GrantM 26 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

Arrochar MRT posted on Facebook the following day saying they were surprised by the abuse directed at the rescued party, but that's a typical reaction in Facebook comments and they must have known it would be worse during lockdown. I think it's safe to assume they knew exactly what they were doing.

 Red Rover 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

> Aahhh.....but who carries one of those on the Cobbler?

I take one pretty much everywhere, they've got me out of trouble a few times! Especially worth it as they are cheap and light. In terms of survivability per £ and per kg the bothy bag must score higher than pretty much anything. They're a godsend in caving as well. 

 leon 1 26 May 2020

The Govt message hasn't changed 'Stay Elite' and you'll be ok

 PPP 26 May 2020
In reply to ABDoddy:

> They were presumably fined as they had made an unessential journey to get there - Motherwell is hardly local to the Cobbler...

It’s irrelevant whether it’s local or not, Scottish guidelines still say you cannot travel for exercise.
Health is devolved matter and the rules are different from English, which keep get reported as UK rules by media. 

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 Fat Bumbly2 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Cant tell you, it's one of the last secret ones left.

 gravy 26 May 2020
In reply to Red Rover:

In terms of survivability per £ and per kg - "a map and compass tops everything else".

Actually, "knowing what you are doing", tops everything.

1
 Red Rover 26 May 2020
In reply to gravy:

I don't disagree. Maybe map and compass and knowledge of how to use them is number 1 but bothy bags can't be far behind. Even if they don't get used in an emergency they let you have a rest or some lunch without getting cold in bad weather. 

Post edited at 13:01
 GrantM 26 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

The police would have been enforcing law not guidelines, if they weren't all from the same household that would be the most straightforward reason for a fine.

 Fractral 26 May 2020
In reply to GrantM:

On my first hike in Scotland we had to call out the local MRT. When they got to us one of the first things they said was that the group leader made the right choice in calling them out. No judgement from any of the team. Then they logged the call out on Facebook and a load of people called us stupid etc in the comments for needing to be rescued.

There's a balance to be struck between encouraging people to stay away from the hills and encouraging people to stay safe and call mountain rescue if they need to. I don't think the media coverage of this incident has found that balance, but I couldn't say what I'd have done instead.

 girlymonkey 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

> Aahhh.....but who carries one of those on the Cobbler?

Me! I carry them everywhere, as an accident can happen anywhere. I often use it for lunch stops too. I have a small one for me and a pal, and big ones for different sized groups. Such amazingly useful bits of kit

 fred99 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

When I did the Cobbler I carried the following in my rucsac;

Bivvy Bag, Down Jacket, Torch, spare batteries, First Aid kit, full waterproofs, gloves, balaclava, spare shirt, whistle, food, emergency rations, flask, and water. Clipped to my rucsac was a map (in a case) and compass. This was in a September, and the weather was good when I set off.

If sh*t had happened, I could have bivvied overnight and returned to the car the next morning if need be.

Surely anyone heading to the hills at THIS time should at least know what they are doing, and carry kit in case of an "extended" trip, to ELIMINATE the chances of getting in trouble and having to call out the MRT.

 Dark-Cloud 26 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

Unfortunately not everybody has got the, skill, experience, thoughtfulness and preparedness that most of us posses, personally i would only every call on the services of the MRT if the proverbial had actually hit the fan and i or one of my party was immobilised.

 ABDoddy 26 May 2020
In reply to PPP:

No argument here; my point was more that they were probably fined for non-essential travel, would have happened regardless of activity or location.

 David Riley 26 May 2020
In reply to ABDoddy:

Who said they were fined  ?

 ABDoddy 26 May 2020
In reply to David Riley:

OP's article

 Graeme G 26 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

A Bivvy bag is not a Bothy.

Please stick with the joke.

 David Riley 26 May 2020
In reply to ABDoddy:

You are right. I read the article twice and missed it. Just got they were met by police.

Post edited at 14:28
Benardd 26 May 2020
In reply to fred99:

If you tripped over a stone, broke your leg and had to call for mountain rescue on your way home you could then be accused of intending to spend the night away from your home address due to the equipment you are carrying. You would then be liable for a fine from the police.

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 Andy Johnson 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Just to amplify what others have said: it a ~3000ft Scottish mountain. You* equip yourself with gear and experience to deal with eventualities like getting lost and having to spend the night on the hill.

If they were injured (doesn't seem to be the case) or if a benightment was going to expose them to appreciable risk (ie exposure) then it would right to call for help. But that doesn't excuse their lack of preparation.

I also note that the callout was at about 3.30pm but sunset isn't until about 9.30pm. I'm normally pretty sympathetic to people who get into trouble in the hills but they still had plenty of time to get themselves down.

(* the general you, not you you)

1
 Graeme G 26 May 2020
In reply to Andy Johnson:

Is your reply directed at me? Or just a general rule  observation?

If the former, I’m a bit perplexed at how few of you understood the joke in my original comment. Most depressing......

 Andy Johnson 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

Sorry. I genuinely didn't didn't see your earlier post, which puts your later one in a different context.

In reply to Graeme G:

I think he was avoiding the impersonal pronoun. Can't being myself to use the term 'one' because of my inverted snobbery. 

 David Myatt 26 May 2020
In reply to Graeme G:

l did a couple of years ago and used it at lunchtime to from the driving rain. Well worthwhile!

 Graeme G 26 May 2020
In reply to David Myatt:

Rain? On The Cobbler? Nah, I just don’t believe that......

 Andy Johnson 26 May 2020
In reply to JJ Krammerhead III:

> I think he was avoiding the impersonal pronoun. Can't being myself to use the term 'one' because of my inverted snobbery. 


Yes

In reply to Welsh Kate:

I think the sort of people you talk about have a mindset that the 'outdoors' is some sort of theme park and that the occurrence of adverse conditions means something has gone wrong and disaster is around the corner. In reality they shouldn't be out in the hills on their own. I suppose mobile phones give people a safety net that allows the inherently timid to dip their toe into the world of adventure. They need to learn that suffering leads to pics and epics make great tales for years to come!

 peppermill 27 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

I suppose the Cobbler is one of those "F*ck it, be right" hills where you can be back in Glasgow for about 2pm if you get an early start and they just got caught out through (I assume) lack of experience.

Post edited at 07:48
 Lankyman 27 May 2020
In reply to blackmountainbiker:

> They need to learn that suffering leads to pics

Would those be 'selfies of suffering'?

In reply to Lankyman:

Meant to write epics - not wearing my reading glasses!

 Red Rover 28 May 2020
In reply to blackmountainbiker:

It leads to good pics as well. The best photos are the ones where you didn't want to get the camera out.

 PPP 29 May 2020
In reply to tinnishill:

From Arrochar MRT:

> Argyll and Bute Council have reversed the decision to open the car parks. Arrochar and other car parks will remain closed this weekend. 
https://www.facebook.com/116932798502569/posts/1340923409436829/?d=n

I can’t imagine how busy it’s going to be regardless.  

 ScraggyGoat 29 May 2020

I find it amazing that we have got to the point where due to a virus you have to try extremely hard to catch outside, that the majority of the population aren't allowed to go for a walk in the hills.

Basically the Scottish Government doesn't trust the Central Belt to behave (whom ironically are their core supporters), and are trying to make political capital out of (or alternatively avoid losing political capital from) fears of a vocal segment of the Highlands.

Just imagine if we had a landed Tory Government at the moment, suggesting the 5 mile limit, how the SNP would be kicking and screaming and stirring.

2
 Fat Bumbly2 29 May 2020
In reply to ScraggyGoat:

It’s a kick in the teeth.. so my local lockdown loops are no longer “OK”.  All I have now is Tranent and similar inside my 8km r semicircle. Adding insult to injury our saving grace... the beaches are out of bounds because they are rammed.

East coast has been shat on, disgusted with the MCoS parroting 5m.  We have to wait until the pubs open. Aye right

4
 Lankyman 29 May 2020
In reply to Fat Bumbly2:

> It’s a kick in the teeth.

It might end up being a godsend? Today, I spoke to several of my (much) younger work colleagues about their total disregard of basic social distancing. Their lack of concern and plenty of other flouting of England's lax rules that I've witnessed makes me think a big resurgence of infection is just around the corner.

itsmarc 29 May 2020
In reply to Lankyman:

That's something I'm really curious about - we've got two approaches to easing restrictions in effect now - on in England where there was no apparent limit to distance or activity, and this 5-mile garbage.  We should soon see how much of an impact that's had/having down South, given the average incubation etc - if it still remains stable or even continues going down, does that imply that it was the correct decision and the Scottish government is being (dare I say it) too cautious?

5
 GrahamD 29 May 2020
In reply to itsmarc:

What do you mean, continues to go down ? I didn't think it was going down ?

 Luke90 29 May 2020
In reply to GerM:

> do you attempt to self rescue and risk worsenig the injury (and make recovery longer and possibly less complete) or call mountain rescue and risk a fine from the police?

For anyone who has a reasonable attitude to Mountain Rescue, I don't think a £30 fine should really be a factor.

In any situation that I would consider calling MR, it's definitely serious enough that I wouldn't care even slightly about a £30 fine.

In reply to ScraggyGoat:

> I find it amazing that we have got to the point where due to a virus you have to try extremely hard to catch outside, that the majority of the population aren't allowed to go for a walk in the hills.

The majority of the population don't want to go for a walk in the hills the want to go to the seaside or beauty spots.    The rules need to limit movement in a way the cops have a chance of enforcing.

When you look at the graphs of deaths, hospital admissions and new infections they are now clearly ticking upwards again in England when during lockdown they were falling smoothly in Scotland and quite rapidly in England.

The UK government are in the middle of a massive f*ck up and persisting with nonsense like opening schools and forcing people back to work when the data says it is too early.  Their own scientists will not lower the threat level from 4 to 3 but they are going ahead with measures they said would happen at level 3 anyway.

Scotland is getting dragged into this misstep by popular sentiment when we had it right before, we need another couple of weeks of strong discipline and an effective test and trace system.  But at least we aren't doing the large effect things like opening schools.

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