Boiling water safe to drink.

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 guffers_hump 26 Feb 2021

Hello,

A simple question, that I already most likely know the answer to but just want some reassurance.

If I am wild camping in the fells of the UK and I need some water, is it safe to say that if I boil the water from a tarn then run it through a paper coffee filter its safe to drink?

Edi: Just to be anal.

Cheers

Post edited at 11:06
4
 Lankyman 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

> Hello,

> A simple question, that I already most likely know the answer to but just want some reassurance.

> If I am wild camping in the fells of the UK and I need some water, is it safe to say that if I boil the water from a tarn then run it through a paper coffee filter its safe to drink?

> Cheers

I've never boiled water wild camping in the UK nor when just out for a day in the hills. Use your eyes and common sense and pick your source accordingly.

11
 DaveHK 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

> If I am wild camping in the fells of the UK and I need some water, is it safe to say that if I boil the water from a tarn then run it through a paper coffee filter its safe to drink?

You might as well make a coffee 

OP guffers_hump 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

That's what I've usually done, just got water from upstream that looks clean. But just to be anal, boiling would make it "safe"?

 bigbobbyking 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

General advice is to take from a running source rather than a static source like a tarn. If I couldn't find anything else then I might boil water from a tarn, but I'd rather find running water. 

 PaulJepson 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

A rolling boil of over a minute should see you safe. 

I'd really recommend some kind of gravity filter for camping. I love the Platypus Gravity Works.  I've never used this one but it seems a bit cheaper than the Platy and has good reviews: https://www.nevisport.com/msr-autoflow-gravity-filter?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_8a...

I've ran some pretty manky puddle water through the Gravity Works in desperation and it comes out crystal clear (albeit a little slowly). 

But as Lankyman says, a lot of people don't bother and it's rare you have a problem with running water in the fells. Just make sure there isn't a dead sheep up stream. 

1
In reply to guffers_hump:

I seem to recall that if you are unsure of the source, rather than just bringing it to the boil, you want to let it continue to boil for several minutes to be sure of killing anything off. I’ve got 8-10 minutes in mind but I’m not sure where from and that feels like a long time. 

But personally it’s not a precaution I’d ever normally take in UK upland areas. As long as I am above any farmland etc I’d usually just do a quick check upstream for dead animals etc and drink away. 

 kathrync 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

In most of the UK, I am happy to drink out of streams as long as I apply a little common sense about where I am taking water from.

A coffee filter will remove silt and particulates from water and make it more pleasant but not necessarily safer to drink. 

Boiling water is the surest means of making it safe. Bring it to a good rolling boil for at least a minute.

Post edited at 11:13
 kathrync 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Stuart Williams:

> I seem to recall that if you are unsure of the source, rather than just bringing it to the boil, you want to let it continue to boil for several minutes to be sure of killing anything off. I’ve got 8-10 minutes in mind but I’m not sure where from and that feels like a long time. 

One minute should be fine in most of the UK if it is a good rolling boil. 3 mins recommended above 2000 m.  This comes from the CDC: https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/emergency/making-water-safe.html

Post edited at 11:20
 LastBoyScout 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Stuart Williams:

> I seem to recall that if you are unsure of the source, rather than just bringing it to the boil, you want to let it continue to boil for several minutes to be sure of killing anything off. I’ve got 8-10 minutes in mind but I’m not sure where from and that feels like a long time. 

I've also got a memory of being told 10 mins, but probably excessive.

2
 LastBoyScout 26 Feb 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

I used the Sawyer Mini inline on a Platypus bladder when cycle touring:

https://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/p/sawyer-mini-filter-E7114045.html?colour=1...

Also comes with a straw for drinking direct, or you could use one of the LifeStraw or WaterToGo bottles, or similar for peace of mind.

Post edited at 11:17
 elsewhere 26 Feb 2021
In reply to PaulJepson:

>  Just make sure there isn't a dead sheep up stream. 

Exactly what we found just upstream of where we drank 

The stream had cut a 30cm wide 50cm deep perfectly sheep sized gully in which a sheep had got stuck.

Post edited at 11:27
 Route Adjuster 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

Boiling is definitely recommended, not so much dead animals that you need to be wary of (they ar easy to spot or smell), but animal poo, deer or sheep for example that may contain Giardia.  Some information here https://www.cdc.gov/parasites/giardia/general-info.html 

As others have said a rolling boil of a few minutes will be enough or a suitable filter system.

1
In reply to guffers_hump:

Much simpler if you have any doubt about water (eg. from a small, still tarn) just to put a Sterotab or two in your main water bottle. Surely they still make them? If you're some distance from the water supply, or you're confined in your tent for a day (or more) by very bad weather, you'll need one of those collapsible gallon? water bottles.

 Jim Lancs 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

Before you can decide how long you might 'need' to boil water, you have to decide what waterborne 'problem' you're trying to solve.  

Basically, there's very little problem drinking out of any water source as long as you're above 'human habitation'. That basically means everywhere in the hills is fine. The only problem is with high campsites, especially heavily used ones like Styhead Tarn, etc. Here the lack of any effective and universally used wilderness shitting protocols here in the UK, means the pollution from other hill goers is your only real concern.

And with more worldwide travel, I have known more cases of giardia being reported here in the UK. Killing those cysts does require a longer rolling boil. 

So the best solution is avoid honey pot camping sites and and water that has originated beneath popular climbing crags where climbers shit. Then all water is good to drink.

 nathan79 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

Cryptosporidium is a bigger risk than Giardia in the UK. Crypto oocysts are hardier than Giardia cysts (resistant to chlorine for example). Take steps to tackle Crypto - (whatever your preferred method is UV, filtration, appropriate chemical treatment etc) and Giardia and a whole lot of things are covered.

In reply to guffers_hump:

Boiling should sort the biological contaminants. It's the non-biological contaminants you then have to think about...

Just to be anal...

 dread-i 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

I've always been a bit paranoid about water if there are sheep about. Liver flukes are a concern, but not if it is fast moving. A water filter, means you can be less concerned about finding a spring or stream. Also, just because it's flowing, doesn't make it automatically safe. I drank from a nice little stream, flowing over some rocks. I went up hill a bit only to find that it originated in a stagnant bog, with cows nearby. I'm not dead and I didnt get ill, but not something I'd like to repeat. 

OP guffers_hump 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> And with more worldwide travel, I have known more cases of giardia being reported here in the UK. Killing those cysts does require a longer rolling boil. 

I have read that Giardia and Cryptosporidium require a minute long rolling boil unless >2000mt then its around 3, but I doubt I'll be above that in the UK, always good info to have though. Thanks for the reply.

Edit: just noticed someone else has said the exact same thing further up.

Post edited at 12:06
 robhorton 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

When I'm camping I normally boil it for a minute or so and make tea and use any left over to top up my water bottle. I have drunk straight from streams and never had a problem but I feel happier knowing it's been boiled. Even if you don't get seriously ill the thought of even a mild stomach upset while wild camping isn't a pleasant one.

In reply to kathrync:

Ah thanks. I thought ten seemed pretty excessive!

 peppermill 26 Feb 2021
In reply to LastBoyScout:

> I used the Sawyer Mini inline on a Platypus bladder when cycle touring:

> Also comes with a straw for drinking direct, or you could use one of the LifeStraw or WaterToGo bottles, or similar for peace of mind.

These are great. Weigh absolutely nowt and screw into just about any plastic bottle along with the rollable bladder they come with. Also I think they're designed for US use and all the nasties that can be present in their wilderness areas so probably more than adequate for UK use.

So light and compact I often stick it in my cycling jersey pocket on long summer rides just in case.

 wercat 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Lankyman:

I drank frequently on the fells in the years running up to and following 1986.

I don't need a headtorch now ...

 Myr 26 Feb 2021
In reply to elsewhere:

> >  Just make sure there isn't a dead sheep up stream. 

> Exactly what we found just upstream of where we drank 

> The stream had cut a 30cm wide 50cm deep perfectly sheep sized gully in which a sheep had got stuck.

Swings and roundabouts - the dead sheep will have nicely filtered out a lot of the suspended particles.

 angry pirate 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

To add to the chorus, I used to drink directly from streams above agricultural activities without incident for years (including drinking from a stream on Cadair Idris which we later found a dead sheep in) and only usually boiled water for cooking.

A few years ago I became seriously ill on a WHW attempt drinking stream water so now I use a SteriPen UV steriliser which seems to work really well. I just zap the water for 90 seconds with UV light and it's done.

The obvious caveat is that I don't know how well it works as whilst I haven't been ill using it but I was only ill once beforehand!

I did finish the WHW unscathed the following year though.

 jkarran 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

Boiling water isn't safe to drink on the fells. It'll scald you.

jk

 Rob Exile Ward 26 Feb 2021
In reply to angry pirate:

I don't like to think why you might have got ill on the WHW ... I think I'd want to carry water on that.

 tomsan91 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

As a process engineer working at a water company I would recommend you use one of the many water filters on the market when out camping or long distance walking. Boiling alone for long enough will kill all bacteria, viruses and protozoa, it will not remove suspended organics from the water so you still end up with those effecting the taste. Personally I use a Sawyer mini which removes most +0.1µm particles and is easy to backwash as it saves the amount of gas you need to carry and provides you with a safe source of drinking water, if used properly that is.

 jdh90 26 Feb 2021
In reply to tomsan91:

Filtering takes out lumps that are bigger than the pore size in your filter. Boiling stuff kills the living stuff, same idea with chlorine tablets.

Spot on.

In addition to this comment, I'm usually conscious about where I take my water from in terms of things that arent living but smaller than a filter could remove.

i.e. when out in the lakes, I wouldn't take water downstream of mine workings that might have a lot of dissolved metal ions that might be bad for me. E.g. water running out of the tungsten mines on Blencathra or up Conniston near the old copper workings.

Mechanical engineer, water industry.

 tomsan91 26 Feb 2021
In reply to jdh90:

I did have a play around once with my Sawyer mini and a Palintest kit, used some chlorine tabs to try and oxidise out the manganese and Iron from some greensands BH water. It worked pretty well till it came time to tasting it 😂 I resigned myself to just accepting the unknown metals and viruses I couldn't remove were only for a few nights a year. 

 angry pirate 26 Feb 2021
In reply to Rob Exile Ward:

I have a horrible feeling that I know exactly what made me ill on the WHW. Some of the camping spots I used second time round had lots of evidence of loo activity very close to water sources.

 bouldery bits 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

In the wetter months, I don't bother. I'll usually drink it straight. 

In Summer, I get the pump out or chuck some chlorine tabs in. 

I only every drink from running water.

I've not died yet and only had mega poos on a single occasion (and this could've been caused by alternative stimulus anyway - ie sun stroke / warm pepperami) 

Post edited at 22:04
 profitofdoom 26 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

> If I am wild camping in the fells of the UK and I need some water, is it safe to say that if I boil the water from a tarn then run it through a paper coffee filter its safe to drink?

Two errors there IMO: 1. drinking from a tarn - you should drink from streams, not tarns. 2. Wondering if boiling water will make it safe - no, it might not

Streams are not always safe, of course. But safer than standing water e.g. in a tarn

 Jim Lancs 26 Feb 2021
In reply to profitofdoom:

> But safer than standing water e.g. in a tarn

I think people are being a little hard on Tarns and reasonably large bodies of standing water. Admittedly I wouldn't wash my car in Windermere, but for most tarns that don't have boats and hotels discharging raw sewage, they're going to be okay as the dilution factor is enormous. It's only ten or so years that Manchester's (and our) water from Thirlmere and Haweswater has been treated. Nearly a hundred years of untreated water hasn't had any noticeable ill effects on the Mancunians. Oh,  hang on . . . 

 nufkin 27 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

>  I have read that Giardia and Cryptosporidium require a minute long rolling boil 

I do wonder if that sort of recommendation is erring on the extra-cautious side? The advice I was given was that bringing to a rolling boil was sufficient, beyond that was just a waste of fuel. I'm not sure that was based on data, though, and frankly I mostly hold to it because all that extra boiling seems tiresome. 

Might this be an opportunity for some UKC science? Where can one obtain phials of Giardia for some controlled real world experiments?

 biggianthead 27 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

If by "the fells" you mean the Lake Disrtrict.  Yes

 felt 27 Feb 2021
In reply to nufkin:

> Might this be an opportunity for some UKC science? Where can one obtain phials of Giardia for some controlled real world experiments?

You could always try the ponds section in your local giardian centre.

 tomsan91 28 Feb 2021
In reply to nufkin:

Sorry to take the wind from the home science sails, the drinking water regulator has published this information in a handy PDF already 🙈 https://cdn.dwi.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/23151716/boil-water-notic...

 crayefish 28 Feb 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

No one has mentioned iodine in this thread?  Strange.

I've been using iodine (my own crystals in a sample bottle to make an aqueous solution) for 2 decades now.  So easy to use, just one bottle can treat 2 litres at a time before recharging for a couple of hours, and it lasts for many years before needing refilling.

And it kills giardia...

 Babika 28 Feb 2021
In reply to crayefish:

> No one has mentioned iodine in this thread?  Strange.

> And it kills giardia...

Another vote for iodine! Used it all the time in Yosemite back country because of the guardia so now I use it here as well. Saves a lot of fuel.

 nufkin 28 Feb 2021
In reply to tomsan91:

>  the drinking water regulator has published this information in a handy PDF already 🙈 https://cdn.dwi.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/09/23151716/boil-water-notic...

Thanks, that save me having to concoct my own slurry solutions. And it vindicates the 'just bring to a boil' approach - chalk one up for half-arsed hygiene:

'...it is considered that the process of heating water to a rolling boil, as recommended in the WHO Guidelines for Drinking-water Quality (WHO, 2011), is sufficient to inactivate pathogenic bacteria, viruses and protozoa...'

 Tringa 28 Feb 2021
In reply to nufkin:

Most of my hill walking is in NW Scotland and I have always drunk from streams, but they are always high or well away from any habitation.

My only 'rule' about drinking from streams is never walk upstream after drinking. Even if the aeration and volume of a hill stream is enough reduce the risk of infection, if you find a dead animal upstream, you aren't going to feel happy.

Dave

 nathan79 28 Feb 2021
In reply to crayefish:

Iodine isn't effective against Cryptosporidium though. Which as I've previously stated is much more prevalent in the UK. Giardia/Giardiasis are much more prevalent in the US but crypto isn't far behind.

Aim your treatment options to tackle Crypto oocysts and in doing so you tackle the more fragile, less common (in UK terms) Giardia cysts. UV, chlorine dioxide, appropriate sized filter, boiling are all good options.

 Robert Durran 28 Feb 2021
In reply to Tringa:

> Most of my hill walking is in NW Scotland and I have always drunk from streams, but they are always high or well away from any habitation.

> My only 'rule' about drinking from streams is never walk upstream after drinking. Even if the aeration and volume of a hill stream is enough reduce the risk of infection, if you find a dead animal upstream, you aren't going to feel happy.

I've only been ill twice. Once after climbing the Clachaig Gully in 1982; I had had a drink and then found a dead sheep in the pool at the top of the next pitch. In 1983 I was ill using water from the river while camping in Gen Nevis. I have had no problems drinking sensibly in the 38 years since then.

 crayefish 28 Feb 2021
In reply to nathan79:

Will read up on Cryptosporidium as admittedly not familiar with it... thanks for the heads up.

But chlorine definitely doesn't work well against the tougher ones, such as giardia (and presumably crypto).  Cl would be very last resort for me and would be more careful where I pick my sources.

 jdh90 28 Feb 2021
In reply to Jim Lancs:

> I think people are being a little hard on Tarns and reasonably large bodies of standing water. Admittedly I wouldn't wash my car in Windermere,

It may surprise you to learn you already might have washed your car with it!  165 reservoirs, 85 groundwater sources, 31 river intakes quoted on the UU water resources plan, and plenty references to their abstraction from Windermere online.

Of course, via a treatment works - lots built early 1990s.

I agree that people seem to be being overly harsh on tarns and standing water. Take the lumps out, kill or remove the bugs and you've performed two of the primary functions of a proper treatment works, and you were quite possibly starting from a better position in terms of raw water quality.

Working in the industry has made me more paranoid about streams. I use to drink straight from them (applying the usual recommendations, never to any ill effect) but these days I'll at least throw a chlorine tab in.

Bit like climbing, we apply the protection that feels suitable, it's just the exposure is more difficult to assess. If it feels sketchy, use more gear!

 nathan79 28 Feb 2021
In reply to crayefish:

Chlorine alone can work for Giardia but it's not effective against Crypto, hence the chlorine dioxide recommendation.

Cryptosporidium is similar to Giardia-prorozoan parasite with oocysts being the infecting agents. Typically oocysts are roughly half the size of Giardia cysts so that's a factor to be considered for filtration. Anywhere you have cattle, deer, sheep, rabbits or large numbers of geese there's a good chance of Crypto being present. There are a number of species but only a few cause disease in humans.

 Robert Durran 28 Feb 2021
In reply to nathan79:

> Chlorine alone can work for Giardia but it's not effective against Crypto, hence the chlorine dioxide recommendation.

I had always understood that iodine was needed for Giardia, so I have always used that when concerned abroad. Chlorine makes me feel ill anyway (I believe this is quite common).

OP guffers_hump 01 Mar 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

Thanks for all the helpful tips.

Sorry if I have caused people to freak about water. I used to drink from streams all the time, still do in an emergency. But I think I'll start using a soya and boiling.

 Frank R. 01 Mar 2021
In reply to Robert Durran:

>I had always understood that iodine was needed for Giardia

As I understand it, neither chlorine nor iodine seem much effective against Giardia or Crypto (especially against the latter). Even less so in cold water or water full of organics (depletion).

Boiling is the safest way, if you can afford the fuel and weight costs. Or you could combine filter and chemical treatment in G. areas, even 1µm filters should take care of the cysts and halogens of the rest.

There are many sources and links already in this thread, but here is another:

https://academic.oup.com/cid/article/34/3/355/388050

(Water Disinfection for International and Wilderness Travelers, Clinical Infectious Diseases journal, OUP)

>Chlorine makes me feel ill anyway (I believe this is quite common).

BTW, if you can't stand the aftertaste of halogen purifiers, you can add some powdered vitamin C (ascorbic acid, powder is cheapest) after it's finished to get rid of the residuals. It's even used for that in water treatment plants.

Might be all a bit anal as I drank (and sometimes still do) from many streams without ill effect, until there was an pronounced effect. Like when we discovered a decomposed piglet just above otherwise absolutely pristine spring. Nearly ran out of TP then...

Post edited at 13:58
Removed User 26 Apr 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

I generally use a filter bottle to use water. It is pretty safe and easy to carry out a small bottle with you. 

https://celticwatersolutions.ie/portable-filter-bottles/

 CantClimbTom 26 Apr 2021
In reply to guffers_hump:

Yes, 1 minute unless higher than you are in UK then 3. The US advice is this https://www.cdc.gov/healthywater/emergency/making-water-safe.html


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